Which CONSOLE!?

[JB0]

120fps with a single cube on a black background 

359666[/snapback]

I was already thinking that.

...

On a more serious note... the only good reason I can think of to make such claims(if we ignore the Kutaragi Amusement Factor) is VGA mode.

If they can hook to a computer monitor, the availability of higher refresh rates makes >60FPS a reasonable goal(remember, console environments keep VSync on at all times for image quality purposes, so your frame rate has to be less than or equal to your vertical refresh).

[Gaijin]

That whole site's articles and news sounds like a 20 year old's wet dreams made reality.

[Mechafan]

LUDRICOUS SPEED GO!

120FPS?  Does anyone really believe this?

359611[/snapback]

Since TV's do not even go that high now I would not even worry about it. The price of the TV that does that in the future will be like buying a car. I would say it is not impossible. You have some PC setups that go much faster than that now. So with the right TV it would be nice.

ASUS 7800GTX TOP

[Gaijin]

This is somewhat related....

For those worried about "downrezzed" output over component on the new BD and HD DVD players (including the PS3 and HD DVD add on for 360)..some news: AACS will allow HD content over component outputs (so any Blu Ray or HD DVD player can display HD over component). Bad News: the ICT (Image Constraint token) flag on the discs will prevent the player from doing so and downres the output through the player. Soo.....it will be up to the studio whether to set the flag or not. The ones that do, no HD component. The ones that don't will allow it. The discs with the flag are supposed to be marked on the outside of the packaging to do so. So, you can vote against it by not purchasing said disc if you wish.

The other good news is that instead of downcenverting to 480i (yes they wanted it down to 480i), if it is a disc that downconverts over analog, it will be at a slightly higher res than standard DVD.

Most of the studios don't want downres over analog (Fox and Disney fought against it strongly), but of the main studios, it seems Warner is the one that wants it most.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Gaijin

[JB0]

This is somewhat related....

For those worried about "downrezzed" output over component on the new BD and HD DVD players (including the PS3 and HD DVD add on for 360)..some news:  AACS will allow HD content over component outputs (so any Blu Ray or HD DVD player can display HD over component).  Bad News: the ICT (Image Constraint token) flag on the discs will prevent the player from doing so and downres the output through the player.  Soo.....it will be up to the studio whether to set the flag or not.  The ones that do, no HD component. 

But it's okay, because there'll be a host of players with either BIOS updates or cleverly hidden menus to disable that "feature."

The other good news is that instead of downcenverting to 480i (yes they wanted it down to 480i), if it is a disc that downconverts over analog, it will be at a slightly higher res than standard DVD.

480p? Or 720i/p?

[Gaijin]

480p? Or 720i/p?

360600[/snapback]

It will be at 960x540. 540p (I'm pretty sure prog and not interlaced). I just got back from my flight tonight so I'm a lil fuzzy on stuff. So it should look slightly better than DVD but, if you have an HDTV, you'd want at least 720p anyways...though it would be interesting to see just how much of a difference it would be with certain displays and whatnot.

720p would be a full HD output so "no soup for you!" if you only have Component on your HDTV. Officially, HD is 720p (1280X720), and 1080i and 1080p (1920X1080) DVD is standard Def at 720 X480(thougth you can't buy any SD TV only that allows 480p oddly)...they are all HD capable.

Other thing I forgot is that AACS also brings us new region codes....

(No region free needed for importing anime on HD DVD and Blu Ray, people!)

Region 1 Discs : North America, South America, East Asia(excluding China): India, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Malaysia etc.)

Region 2 Discs : Africa, Europe

Region 3 Discs : China, Russia and other countries

Edited January 15, 2006 by Gaijin

[Gaijin]

But it's okay, because there'll be a host of players with either BIOS updates or cleverly hidden menus to disable that "feature."

It's not likely. The manufacturer will lose the AACS license and this time around, it seems every manufacturer and studio is being veeeeeeery careful on things like that.

At least, in the case of HD DVD, there is only Toshiba and LG manufacturing players (not counting PC drives from HP) since Sanyo had delayed theirs indefinitely (taking a wait and see), and the RCA one is simply a rebadged Toshiba. So if Toshiba does it, they lose their AACS license and they wouldn't do that. LG...well, they might but I doubt it.

As for Blu Ray, you got Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, LG, Panasonic, Yamaha, JVC, Phillips, Zenith, and Mitsubishi making players and recorders so take your pic as to who might try to tempt the fates. Don't think it will happen here either.

You might see some China stuff down the road but, the best way is that the studios realize that pirating doesn't happen from some guy getting stuff on the disc through component outputs. Warner Bros( releasing for both formats) is the worst offender here since most of the other studios actually understand that and don't want to leave the early adopters out in the cold.

[mikeszekely]

It's not likely. The manufacturer will lose the AACS license and this time around, it seems every manufacturer and studio is being veeeeeeery careful on things like that.

But you already said that AACS will allow HD over component, and it's just the studios that are being bitchy.

Warner Bros( releasing for both formats) is the worst offender here since most of the other studios actually understand that and don't want to leave the early adopters out in the cold.

I think I might still take a wait and see approach anyway. The technology on both sides still seems a bit buggy, and the studios just can't seem to agree on the best way to approach all this yet. Maybe I could get one of those Discovery DVDs that's in HD?

Actually, I wonder about that. A DVD player with progressive scan is limited to 480p, right? So, those DVDs must be made with PCs in mind. But what about the Xbox 360? It's designed for native 720p support, even if most DVDs aren't. I wonder if it can output one of those DVDs in HD?

[Gaijin]

But you already said that AACS will allow HD over component, and it's just the studios that are being bitchy.

Yes, the AACS specs allow manufacturers to let the hardware output HD over analog. But what JBO mentioned was that if maybe some players find a flagged disc maybe some of them will "ignore" the flag and let the disc output full HD over analog. This won't be the case. It will be up to the studios to set the ICT flag (which will down-res discs to what I mentioned earlier over analog). So, it is up to the studios to set the flag on the disc, and if the disc has the flag, the player has no choice but to down res it.

Actually, I wonder about that.  A DVD player with progressive scan is limited to 480p, right?  So, those DVDs must be made with PCs in mind.  But what about the Xbox 360?  It's designed for native 720p support, even if most DVDs aren't.  I wonder if it can output one of those DVDs in HD?

Native 720p support in games. DVD films are 480p period. Unless the player has a scaler (like those "up converting" players with an expensive scaling faroudja chip), the ouput will always be 480p. In the case of upscaling players, the player will "upscale" the source material to 720p or 1080i. It won't give you any "added" detail, but it will appear slightly sharper. Some people don't notice the difference much but with a good upscaling player it makes DVD's on an HDTV look a little better. The difference isn't night and day at first (it isn't magic) but, if you do upscale DVD's and watch them that way for a few weeks, then switch back to 480p (on the same monitor), you'll likely find a 480p picture "soft". BTW, most upconverting players will only up scale through HDMI.

The 360 has no upscaling for regular DVD movies even if the games are output in that res. It's just like the original PS2's had no progressive scan playback but you could play a PS2 DVD game in progressive scan.

One thing to note is that most of the HD DVD players will upscale regular DVD's to 720p or 1080i, and Blu Ray players will upscale DVD's to 720p, 1080i and 1080p. That's for players. Not sure if the 360 add on or the PS3 will but it's almost a given.

Since 360 has no current digital output the add on will probably have an HDMI or HDCP DVI out. HDMI would require a separate port (The whole HDMI spec is that no manufacturer proprietary connectors) whereas if it's in the hardware , an HDCP compliant DVI cable could be made to use the 360's current out.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Gaijin

[mikeszekely]

DVD films are 480p period.

Not exactly.

But as I expected, they're made with PCs in mind. I don't think they'd play at all on a standard DVD player.

[JB0]

DVD films are 480p period.

Not exactly.

But as I expected, they're made with PCs in mind. I don't think they'd play at all on a standard DVD player.

360874[/snapback]

There's also a 480i allowed in DVD spec. It sucks, though.

[Gaijin]

DVD films are 480p period.

Not exactly.

But as I expected, they're made with PCs in mind. I don't think they'd play at all on a standard DVD player.

360874[/snapback]

Haha, nice try. You took my quote out of context. That is WMV HD and it won't play on any standard player. Different codec. You can store any type of information on DVD but a WMV file isn't "DVD" standard video. Your 360 will only output DVD video at 480i or 480p. My statement is correct concerning that you won't get any DVD to output anything higher from your 360.

The 480i is a given. Guess my wording was too strong..I meant you won't get any MPEG 2 video out at anything higher than that res from the 360 or any other standard DVD player...unless you have an upscaling one and even that isn't "true HD" though it may play at that res.

Edited January 16, 2006 by Gaijin

[Gaijin]

Some console humor:

Kutaragi Connects Cell to Testicles; PS3 Mass Production to Begin Soon

In a stunning move, Playstation guru Ken Kutaragi has announced that with the power of the Cell, he has found a way to manufacture Sony's next gen system the PS3 along with his body's sperm. "By connecting the Cell to my testicles, I am now able to produce more potent sperm, as well as a more potent console," explained Kutaragi. "I can produce them both anytime, even as we speak."

According to inside sources, Kutaragi is currently producing more than 1,000 PS3s a day. "It's really an amazing sight to see in person," said Drinky Cow, a GAF official who actually was invited to Kutaragi's estate to see the process in action. "Kutaragi just stands there, real calm, and before you know it there are 10 PS3s flying through the sky. Luckily this is all done behind bullet proof glass, because it could get dangerous."

Many analysists believe this is the main reason Sony feels they can meet their Spring 2006 launch goal for the PS3. When asked, a Sony official said that Kutaragi's PS3s work perfectly, while many of the ones produced in Sony's Research and Development labs are riddled with technical problems. "The PS3s Kutaragi makes don't have any bugs whatsoever." With Kutaragi producing a constant stream of PS3s, Sony is confident that they will avoid the shipment problems that caused the Xbox 360 to severely underpreform in the US.

"Sony is in a position where they can create an amazing amount of PS3 hardware at anytime, not to mention the fact that this cuts production costs, at least in terms of money, by 100%," Cow explained. "Microsoft cannot match this sheer speed, and Nintendo has no chance whatsover. This pretty much seals Sony's place as next gen leader."

 Above: At a recent press conference, Kutaragi demonstrates the true power of the Cell by squeezing his nuts.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Gaijin

[mikeszekely]

Best caption ever.

[JB0]

It's nice to see some Kutaragi that's ACTUALLY made up, instead of just sounding like it is.

[David Hingtgen]

Blowing past the Dreamcast for "oldest system with games STILL being released" comes a new GENESIS RPG. Yes, that's right, an all-new US release for the Genesis.

http://www.videogamedepot.com/shop/product...d=01D0019136011

I don't think I've played a RPG on the Genesis since Sword of Vermillion.

[JB0]

Blowing past the Dreamcast for "oldest system with games STILL being released"  comes a new GENESIS RPG.  Yes, that's right, an all-new US release for the Genesis. 

http://www.videogamedepot.com/shop/product...d=01D0019136011

I don't think I've played a RPG on the Genesis since Sword of Vermillion.

362140[/snapback]

*scratches head*

I'd've swore the oldest system with games coming was still the 2600...

http://www.atariage.com/store/

[Zentrandude]

And I thought the one for the dreamcast was late.

Damn game cost more than the genesis itself in the pawn/thrif stores.

[yellowlightman]

And I thought the one for the dreamcast was late.

362149[/snapback]

There's still a couple games coming out for the DC in the coming months, both shooters.

[David Hingtgen]

I know most people would probably disagree with me, but I really consider the Atari 2600 more like a "pre-console". NES would be my minimum level. (Yes, I draw a sharp line between the NES and all consoles before it)

But a full-on Genesis RPG--now THAT'S a game.

Edited January 20, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[JB0]

I know most people would probably disagree with me, but I really consider the Atari 2600 more like a "pre-console".  NES would be my minimum level.  (Yes, I draw a sharp line between the NES and all consoles before it) 

But a full-on Genesis RPG--now THAT'S a game.

362175[/snapback]

Pre-console to me means the dedicated Pong units, and the Odyssey 1.

The 2600 was the first machine to implement the programmable paradigm that has defined every game machine since, and the first to use custom hardware.

It's very similar to a modern game console, from a design standpoint.

In some ways, the VCS is actually more advanced than an NES. Not many, but a few. Mainly color depth and scanline-based special effects.

The shift to sprite/tile graphics came with the IntelliVision, which also introduced the crime against humanity known as the gamepad(in what I consider to be a superior design to Nintendo's, if for no other reason than it was ambidextrous), and was the first to attempt to lock 3rd-party developers out(though it was done after-the-fact and failed miserably).

Also brought us the BIOS splash screen, which was blessedly absent for many years afterwards. And was the first 16-bit console.

The Vectrex introduced both the analog thumbstick and the "plastic cap on a silicone dome" button construction, in a package that's actually VERY similar to a really big NES pad(inch and a half tall, 8" long, 3 deep).

Also made signifigant use of scaling and rotation through specialized graphics hardware(an integrated vector display tube), making it (possibly) the first "3D-accelerated" game machine.

On a personal note, this baby was also my first game console, and sits a mere 3 feet from me at this moment(right next to my SNES).

The Atari 5200, while missing the analog stick and silicone switches(which on the 5200 lacked the plastic cap of modern buttons) by mere months, and the BIOS splash screen by 2 years, DID introduce 4 controller ports on a console, the almighty PAUSE BUTTON, and the automatic RF switchbox(Whoo. RF. Yay. I should do an AV mod on my VCS and 5200.).

I'm not sure what makes the NES so diffrent from its predecessors, aside from country of origin.

</rant>

[David Hingtgen]

I'll freely admit I'm slightly too young to be too familiar with most of those other than their names.

What makes the NES different? I would argue the design/quality of the games themselves, say 1988+. Of course, you could say it was the programmers, not the console itself that allowed that.

Maybe it was just the first to combine all the aspects you mentioned. (or at least, most of them).

Closest comparison I can draw is with early passenger jets. The first was the Comet, but it frankly sucked. It was the 707 years later that truly "sparked" the jet-age for passengers. It was just so vastly superior as a whole to what came before--it wasn't all that revolutionary, but it was just the total package that made it superior and far more enduring than almost anything before. Not all that much faster, more comfortable, or longer-ranged than the previous #1 plane in each of those categories ---but it was the new #1 in every category.

Edited January 20, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[JB0]

I'll freely admit I'm slightly too young to be too familiar with most of those other than their names. 

It's one of my major hobbies, so I've got a lot of trivia in here(according to your profile, you're a year older than me).

I actually went from a Vectrex(Bought on clearance when I was 2) and a 99/4a computer(same story) to an SNES. So I got roughly a decade of hardware evolution in one shot(of course I'd had NES exposure at friends' houses and store demos, but not a massive amount).

Then I backpedalled to a 2600 and then an NES. My acquisition order encouraged an interest in the history of the market.

From there... let's just say I have a dozen different systems and way too much trivia.

What makes the NES different?  I would argue the design/quality of the games themselves, say 1988+.  Of course, you could say it was the programmers, not the console itself that allowed that. 

There's plenty of high-quality games on pre-NES systems.

And what happened to the system's first 3 years? It hit the US in '85, and actually dates back to 1983, when the FamiCom hit Japan. If you're cutting it off at 88, just say the Genesis was "the first console," with a 1988 release in Japan, and an '89 launch state-side.

Closest comparison I can draw is with early passenger jets.  The first was the Comet, but it frankly sucked. It was the 707 years later that truly "sparked" the jet-age for passengers.  It was just so vastly superior as a whole to what came before--it wasn't all that revolutionary, but it was just the total package that made it superior and far more enduring than almost anything before.  Not all that much faster, more comfortable, or longer-ranged than the previous #1 plane in each of those categories ---but it was the new #1 in every category.

Not quite the same situation, since there wasn't any competition to the NES.

The crash of '83 had cleaned the US market out.

There were a lot of factors behind the crash, but it wasn't just people realizing that "Atari sucks."

The primary one was bad business practices at the retail level. Stores were stocking equal amounts of all games. So a bargin-bin Mythicon title(you don't need to know who they are, just that they sucked) had the same shelf space as, say, Joust. The people BUYING the games, obviously, wanted the good ones and not the bad ones.

So while the good games were flying off the shelves, the bad ones just sat there. And retailers, rather than looking at specific titles, just looked at "games" and saw that games as a whole DIDN'T sell well, and thus the video game fad was over.

And when people started trying to compete with Nintendo in America, Nintendo'd already established themselves and was using their market power to prevent competition.

Stores that carried 7800s and Sega Master Systems tended to have Nintendo shipments "mysteriously disappear" during the holiday season, for example.

...

Of course, the competition didn't exactly make a lot of effort to raise public awareness in the first place.

So it's more like if people had started making bad knockoffs of Comets, the kncokoffs gave jets as a whole a bad name, then the 707 brought back an industry that people thought was nothing more than a passing fad, and shot rockets at every non-707 in the sky.

The games were sound, when any effort was put into them.

That's why you keep seeing retro compilations crop up, is they're still fun games 25 years later.

Asteroids isn't better or worse than Zelda, it's just diffrent. One focuses on completion, the other more on reflexes and quick thinking.

Personally speaking, I don't care for a lot of the biggest NES games, including the immortal pack-in.

Stuff like Gradius and Castlevania just gets on my nerves. I HATE memorization games, especially when your character is too slow to attempt free-form play(in Gradius' case, you can't even stick to the pattern if you die in the wrong spot).

Games that require you to throw hundreds of lives away learning where everything is just get on my nerves.

I never liked Space Invaders either. It's got the same problems. Just too mechanical.

They got better later, some genres slower than other.

I like Mario 3(and Mario 2, but that doesn't really count).

Rondo of Blood's player character moves a lot better than the NES CVs did, bringing it to the level where pattern recognition is an aid instead of the entire game.

I like the Gradius pseudo-sequel Salamander, which I've described on many occasions as "Gradius done right."

My favorite games, though, remain ones where patterns aren't really relevant.

Asteroids, for example, is pure randomness. The rocks enter from random locations, and the nature of the game is such that even if they do come in the same locations, slight variations in player input dradically change the game. End result: You'll never play the same game twice.

Going a bit more modern, Mars Matrix on the Dreamast is a game that you can play by reflex and instinct(though a large screen and a good joystick are must-haves).

And for raw eclecticism, everyone needs to play Qix. Totally random, totally freeform, and totally abstract.

It's never been a very high-profile title(original arcade release failed because... there were no patterns to beat it with), but it's a damn good one.

[Gaijin]

It's one of my major hobbies, so I've got a lot of trivia in here(according to your profile, you're a year older than me).

You are both younger than me.

[Black Valkyrie]

Nice quote JBO (I`m older than you ). Believe it or not back in the Atari days 80 - 81 I didn`t like at all, I used they to say ugly pictures and stuff like that, didn`t know the word GRAPHICS back then

Around the early 80`s I used to play VG for time to time but just to try it out and have fun. I think I`m not the only one who thought about this back then, in 83 I had the late 80`s, early 90`s arcade and SNES VG graphics in my head, the duel in SW-ROTJ was the first thing as a game with this graphics in my mind.

Since 86 I had a Nintendo`s Game & Watch units plus few home computers including the Japanese MSX, this computer with Konami together made me love and changed my view of VG forever. Yes till today Konami is No. 1 VG company and Salamander is my always fave/No. 1 game of all time.

So guys any of you still have favorite game of all time ?

[JB0]

Nice quote JBO (I`m older than you  ).  Believe it or not back in the Atari days 80 - 81 I didn`t like at all, I used they to say ugly pictures and stuff like that, didn`t know the word GRAPHICS back then   

Well, look at what the arcades were doing. The 2600 brought the games home, but they took a major hit.

On the opther hand you didn't get ports that sacrificed playability for the sake of grapical accuracy(See: PS1 Xmen/StreetFighter) because graphical accuracy wasn't an option.

So guys any of you still have favorite game of all time ? 

Mmmm, let's see...

Probably Asteroids Deluxe for fav game, just because I prefer shields to hyperspace. Quick action, but every motion has to be Probably the pinnacle of single-screen gaming right there.

My tastes shift a fair bit with time, but 'Roids games are always near the top of my list.

[Gaijin]

Too many. Can't say of all time...but the closest goes to SF2 Turbo. Second is Combat on the 2600. Those 2 prob sucked the most out of my lifetime.

Some bold statements:

Digital Bits interview

What is of interest is what he says about Sony shipping 4-7 million PS3's this year. I highly doubt that unless the Kutaragi Cell Testicle thing is a reality.

On a serious note, if they actually come close to even half that, there will be rejoicing in console land.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Gaijin

[David Hingtgen]

I skipped NES 85-87 due to IMHO the good games being few and far between. Yes, there was Mario and Zelda and Metroid, but 90% struck me as being 2600 re-hashes. It wasn't until later that I saw anything decently innovative (or taking advantage of the system's power).

Qix---know of it, never played it, always wanted to.

Salamander---played the JP PSX Gradius history pack (or whatever it was officially called), but can't remember much (playing every Gradius and Life Force game together sequentially does tend to blur them a bit in your mind)

Going OT just a bit---what's your preferred shooter? I've always liked Darius and Thunderforce best (mainly because I can actually BEAT games in that series, followed by Gradius (which is very fun but I never do well at the end). R-Type always starts out slow (literally) but is fairly fun by the end, but requires more pure memorization than the others.

My fave vertical-scroller is still Space Megaforce, followed by Axelay. Ikaruga after that, then Radiant Silvergun.

[Gaijin]

Going OT just a bit---what's your preferred shooter?  I've always liked Darius and Thunderforce best (mainly because I can actually BEAT games in that series, followed by Gradius (which is very fun but I never do well at the end).   R-Type always starts out slow (literally) but is fairly fun by the end, but requires more pure memorization than the others.  

My fave vertical-scroller is still Space Megaforce, followed by Axelay.   Ikaruga after that, then Radiant Silvergun.

362449[/snapback]

Thunder Force series hands down. I actually just picked up the Thunder Force VI soundtrack last week. Nice tracks from the unfinished DC game, and some stuff from the others. Hope the rumors about TechnoSoft are true and they are actually planning on returning with TF-VI.

And TFIV was my overall fave in the series...long, looked beautiful, and music was killer.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Gaijin

[David Hingtgen]

There's a TF 6 soundtrack? How/where? I love my copy of the TF 5 one.

[Gaijin]

There's a TF 6 soundtrack?  How/where?  I love my copy of the TF 5 one.

362456[/snapback]

Where'd you get the TF V one? Is it the "Lost Technology" album? I missed that one. I also missed the special limited Saturn version of TFV with the music CD from other games. I would give anything for that CD. I just have been too busy to get one off ebay.

The TF VI soundtrack is "Broken Thunder" Project Thunder Force VI.

PM me for the details.

[JB0]

I skipped NES 85-87 due to IMHO the good games being few and far between.  Yes, there was Mario and Zelda and Metroid, but 90% struck me as being 2600 re-hashes.  It wasn't until later that I saw anything decently innovative (or taking advantage of the system's power). 

That's one thing that really impressed me on both thr NES and 2600... the degree to which they could push the system.

Qix---know of it, never played it, always wanted to.

It's MAME time!

Taito Memories Pocket has it, and Taito Legends 2 is slated for it.

Taito Legends 1 has Super Qix, which is inferior.

My 5200 version occupies a near-permanent station in my cart slot.

Salamander---played the JP PSX Gradius history pack (or whatever it was officially called), but can't remember much (playing every Gradius and Life Force game together sequentially does tend to blur them a bit in your mind)

I have that problem a lot of the time.

Too many games.

Salamander was the one with no power-up bar, for the record.

Going OT just a bit---what's your preferred shooter?  I've always liked Darius and Thunderforce best (mainly because I can actually BEAT games in that series, followed by Gradius (which is very fun but I never do well at the end).  R-Type always starts out slow (literally) but is fairly fun by the end, but requires more pure memorization than the others. 

My fave vertical-scroller is still Space Megaforce, followed by Axelay.  Ikaruga after that, then Radiant Silvergun.

362449[/snapback]

Blasted close button! Had something typed up, but...

Keeping it to scrolling flight affairs(No Moon Patrol or Gyruss sneaking in this one)...

My absolute favorite is probably Mars Matrix. Sure it can cause slowdown on a Dreamcast with raw bullet-count(though I've never seen it happen for more than a second), and there's usually more firepower than empty space on the screen, but it somehow does it without ever seeming "unfair."

Following that...

RType's a mixed bag. I love the first few levels of RType 3 and Delta, but that turns to loathe as they crank the difficulty up and it falls into pattern memorization. Actually holds true across the entire series.

I've had a lot of fun with Final, which is widely regarded as mediocre(and IS seriously flawed in some places). Has a lot of the same faults too. I continue-whored a few stages REALLY badly, just out of spite. I think most of the time I've dumped into it was because I got hooked on the pokemon aspect. How on EARTH did I decide that unlocking all 101 ships was a good idea? (I usually hate collection games, so this is by no means normal)

irem does that a lot. Lures me in with silky smooth gameplay and promises of alien carnage as far as the eye can see(which is about... 12 inches?), then beats me down with some utterly EVIL level designs once I get addicted. I hate them for it and love them for it all at the same time(you should see the time I've put into Metal Storm...).

I like MUSHA on the Genesis a lot.

Looking at things, it's a close relative of Space Megaforce(both are Aleste games in Japan). I've got a new reet warez rawm to download.

Edit: Oh yes! Old-school Zanac-style Aleste! Compile can do no wrong.

Honorable mention to ESP Ra De, Salamander 2, and Darius Gaiden.

Oh, and ChoRenSha.

The much-loved Ikaruga feels too pattern-based to me, BTW.

...

That and I keep getting my colors mixed up and kamikazeing into a bullet.

I've never played Radiant Silvergun. Don't have a Saturn or arcade cab(yet) and can't emulate the ST-V at a playable level(I've checked).

I tend to enjoy vertical shooters mroe than horizontal ones. They seem to focus more on raw skill, while horizontal ones seem to tend towards pattern memorization.

Anyways... Mars Matrix wins.

</2-cents>

Edited January 21, 2006 by JB0

[myk]

There's a TF 6 soundtrack? 

Speaking of shooter sountracks, I'd love to get a copy of either Einhander's or Gradius Gaiden's, but the first is currently selling for about a $100 and the latter is impossible to find...

Edited January 21, 2006 by myk

[Duke Togo]

I skipped NES 85-87 due to IMHO the good games being few and far between.  Yes, there was Mario and Zelda and Metroid...

362449[/snapback]

Three of the greatest games ever made...

[mikeszekely]

So guys any of you still have favorite game of all time ? smile.gif

Game? Hard to say. Series? Megaman.

Going OT just a bit---what's your preferred shooter?

That was never really my genre, but if I had to pick one, I'd say Einhander.