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Harlocks Biplane, what is it?


DestroidsRage
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I think Harlocks biplane is one of the most appealing looking planes I've ever seen. It just has that awesome look to it. I have absolutely no idea what kind of plane it is though. Does anyone know? I'd very much like to research the aircraft, but so far I havent been able to pinpoint what exact aircraft it is! LoL ^__^ So yah, any help would be greatly appreciated ^_^

Edit:: In case of confusion, Im talking about the original Phantom Harlocks red biplane, Arcadia, from the movie Arcadia Of My Youth.

-BEN-MAN-

Edited by DestroidsRage
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I would, but I have the old VHS edition by Animeigo. Im not even sure if the DVD edition has been released yet... So I have no way of even obtaining a picture.

-BEN-MAN-

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LoL! Nope. This is a ridiculously famous anime, I figured most of you would own this Animeigo title! Its well worth the money. Its only a step below Ai Oboete Imasu Ka? in wonderfullness.

-BEN-MAN-

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Kieth dude, I have yet to see it!

Im a massive mecha nut, just as much as I am a Space Opera nut.

I bought Sonic Soldier Borgman, and Tekkaman Blade (because I've seen the original tekkaman series subtitled and I want to see the sequal), and Dunbine for a friend. And I promised myself Area 88, I Wish You Were Here, and the first set of Hokuto No Ken, first. After that, I'll get the last set of Yamato and the first set of Galaxy Express.

I'll get around to it, Im just a slow ass ^_^.

-BEN-MAN-

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How sad you all didn't come to me for screenshots. I'm the only guy who was willing to find certain parts in Macross episodes to screencapture them. I have a screen capture board for capture VHS and Laserdisc footage, and without further adoo, here are some good screenshots of Phantom F. Harlock the 1st's Biplane:

har1.gif

har2.gif

har3.gif

har4.gif

har5.gif

har6.gif

har7.gif

har8.gif

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Hikaru's yellow model biplane didnt have lower canted wings like this one does. I dont think...

Thank you VERY MUCH for posting pictures dude ^__^ ! I really appreciate it ^_^ !

Yet still no one can identify the plane? Odd... Im not that familiar with early biplanes, so I have no idea. I just love the design of this plane. Its /so/ cool looking!! So yah ^_^

-BEN-MAN-

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oh cool arcadia is finally coming i wish viz would get off their asses and release galaxy express.and again someone bring arion to this country please.and don't forget the original harlock show and galaxy express.i would also like to see the space cruiser yamato series in it's original form.i think desslock's voice in star blazers sounded to swishy.also bolar wars there was a good reason why it didn't get a wide release in america,it sucked walrus nuts.

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Yeah, I got the pictures from my VHS obviously, when I heard about the Arcadia of My Youth movie, i looked everywhere for the subbed version (I heard the English Dub both sucked and edited some key parts).

Every person I've shown this movie became a Harlock fan like me ;)

That plane is definately pre WWI, but I don't know what it is. I can ask at another forum I go to.

BTW, I cant' wait for this to be on DVD, this movie is a classic.

Voice of Free Arcadia rings harmonically in all our ears

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Pre-ww1?? Not bloody likely ^_^

Pre-ww2, probably... You gotta remember that the first military planes used in WW1 were screwy little planes that looked like ancient UltraLights! Only a bit later was there actual biplane use and stuff.

But yah! I'd /LOVE/ to know what type of plane that is. Anyone who has any means capable of easily figuring it out would be /awesome/ to try and figure it out ^_^

At any rate ^_^

-BEN-MAN-

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oh cool arcadia is finally coming i wish viz would get off their asses and release galaxy express.and again someone bring arion to this country please.and don't forget the original harlock show and galaxy express.i would also like to see the space cruiser yamato series in it's original form.i think desslock's voice in star blazers sounded to swishy.also bolar wars there was a good reason why it didn't get a wide release in america,it sucked walrus nuts

....Where the hell have you been? You're waiting for Viz??????????? You might as well just give up any hope of seeing the movies on DVD if you're waiting for Viz. Bah!

If you've got a region switchable player, head on down to DVDasian.com & pick up both movies right now (the first movie is encoded to R3, Adeiu is all region). English subtitles, Japanese audio, all the extra's you could hope for on such a release, etc. In short, simply perfect! If you don't have a region switchable player, then head on to animeniacs.org, and pick up the HK DVD's of the GE:999 movies (subtitles aren't as good as the R3 releases, but they ripped everything else). They also have the first 2 volumes of GE:999 TV (great subtitles), and all 3 seasons of Space Cruiser Yamato (great subtitles). Then maybe you'll see what a good story the Bolar Wars was.

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Well, I know my planes fairly well, and I don't recognize that. It has elements from various interwar craft, but if a gun was to my head I would say it is a fantasy creation.

- The lower wing is distinctive, and would be recognizable if it were real

- The interwing struts are placed too far inboard (I don't look at interwar biplanes too often, so I could be wrong here...but it "looks" wrong)

- It has an aerofoil between the main gear (which was almost exclusive to WWI German aircraft, and was quite uncommon after the war)

Now I could be wrong, because someone always knows more than you, but even if it is "real" it would be pretty obscure.

I like the look gull-wings on bi-planes too(tried to build a fictional schnieder-cup racer with 'em).

Edited by Phyrox
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After looking through a few hundred biplanes, I'm going to go for "fantasy" as well.

Main point: inverted gull wing-- AFAIK, no biplane (asides from R/C and modern stunt custom-builts) have ever had an inverted gull wing, upper nor lower wing. Also, the lower wing simply looks too big like that. The lower wing is *generally* smaller or equally sized, yet with the gulling, it might have more area than the upper. Again, only stunt biplanes with massive engines tend to use "funky" wing designs like that.

Inverted gull wings were pretty rare, and were used by monoplanes. Ju-87 is the earliest major plane I know of with one. (And of course, the F4U later on)

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Yes, I agree. I was thinking it might be a fantasy creation. However... Leiji Matsumoto is usually pretty good with historical information. Especially in Arcadia Of My Youth. In the WW2 scenes you can see BF-109s, Shermans, lots of different ww2 vehicles.

Maybe... Just as the space battleship Acradia was a completely custom built ship, maybe the first Harlocks biplane was a custom built airplane?

-BEN-MAN-

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I have found but ONE biplane, whos lower wing was an inverted gull wing. And its obviously not this plane. But this supports the idea that this IS possibly a real plane.

This plane was from early WW2, and is merely meant to represent a point, that such an aircraft could exist.

http://www.ifrance.com/luftwaffe35/images/ar81b.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/luftwaffe35/images/ar81v1.jpg

I firmly believe that Harlocks Arcadia Biplane is a real world design. Just a VERY obscure one. Someone ridiculously familiar with German early biplanes, in genera would probably be the most helpl. This design /has/ to actually exist.

-BEN-MAN-

Edited by DestroidsRage
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Here, maybe you'll find something I didn't:

http://members.rogers.com/ww1aircraftdrawings/

Some 1,000 profiles of 1911-1919 aircraft. 500 from Germany alone. I went through a LOT of stuff and didn't find it. But if you really want to, go look through EVERY plane. If it's not in there, it doesn't exist.

Also, the Arado above is from the same era as the Ju-87. I doubt you'll find an inverted gull wing 15+ years earlier. (And that is BARELY a gull wing---Harlock's is the most gulled wing I've ever seen, more than the Corsairs). BTW, Arado was the prime maker of German floatplanes--they were about the only biplanes of that era (Fairey Swordfish is the other) because biplanes are better when you need absolute minimum takeoff speed. Harlock's not flying a 30's ocean-going biplane.

I'll add another comment to why I think it's fake: No point to the gulling. The reason planes have inverted gull wings are for prop clearance. That simple. Ju-87's and F4U have BIG props. The F4U's is the biggest of any fighter ever. But to gain ground clearance, it'd need huge heavy landing gear. But if you just bend the wing down at the gear attachment point, you can use simply, lighter, shorter gear. That's the reason. Not aerodynamics or anything. But Harlock's plane--well the gulling sure doesn't affect its gear! And the prop's not big enough to need it.

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The Arado sure does't convince me...if you even want to call that an inverted gull-wing (seems most of the gull shape comes from the wingroot

structure). I know my German stuff pretty well. I haven't seen everything, but there aren't a whole lot of aircraft I haven't at least seen a picture of.

Just because you find a picture of a German aircraft with some subtle version of inverted gull wings DOES NOT mean Harlocks aircraft is real.

There are still too many inconsistancies for any rational person to assert that they "firmly believe that Harlocks Arcadia Biplane is a real world design."

I am trying to be helpful, but why would you all of a sudden be so sure? I'm not saying this plane couldn't possibly exist, but you sound convinced it is...based on some pretty shoddy evidence (and against the testimony of some fairly well-educated aircraft buffs)

Just curious.

Good luck finding it.

Edited by Phyrox
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I dont know why I still think its a true airplane... I guess because I dont see /why/ Leiji Matsumoto would design a 1920's/30's biplane on his own, instead of finding some obscure German biplane to use.

I strongly believe that Harlocks biplane is German in orgigin, because of the airfoil between the landing gears, and the fact that Harlock comes from Germany originally.

And couldnt it be that the inverted gull wing is because the two wings would have been too close together normally? Im not that affluent in aerodynamics, but Im sure theres a reason for the gull wing. So that the wings could be farther apart, makes sense to me... but then again the Fokker Triplane had wings /very/ close together, and it flew beautifully, so yah... But at any rate.

-BEN-MAN-

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The airfoil between the wings is only common on German aircraft during WWI, which this plane clearly is not.

The wings are nowhere near too close, if you can find another aerodynamic reason for this biplane to have inverted gull-wings, you let me know.

I'll tell you why the designer didn't use a real-world aircraft. This one looks cooler. Period.

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I don't think it's a true airplane. I asked at another forum and this is the reply I got:

I don't know what it is either - and I have a working knowledge of the a/c of the era. I'd say - it is a phantasy aeroplane created in 'literal latitude' of it's time. The 'design' puts  it in the 1930 - 35 era though.
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Consider this: the film artbook has a very detailed section dealing with the BF-109G6 and Spitfires. It clearly states the model and variant of those fighters but in the section dedicated to that biplane there is no indication about which aircraft represents (at least in a western language) I have scans from that section of the book and I will post them tomorrow.

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GREAT bloody lineart!!! Thank you sooo much!!!

Can anyone translate the stuff on the biplane? This will eternally solve this discussion ^_^

-BEN-MAN-

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Anyone can translate katakana, even if you don't know Japanese.

Anyways, the BF-109 and P-51 obviously list their names, and the Spitfire says "Spitfire" in katakana.

But the biplane is simply "Arcadia". (More like "Arukadeia" though) :)

Strange, they go so far as to not only make it a Bf-109*G* but a *G-6*----yet the P-51 doesn't get anything... (It's a P-51D obviously, the most distinctive and famous version)

Edited by David Hingtgen
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The more and more I try and find something that resembles this thing, the more convinced I am that its a made up design using elements of a lot of aeroplanes that the artists liked...!

The cockpit and forward fuselage reminds me of some Italian monoplane fighters from WWII, the landing gear from a WWI Fokker Triplane, the rear tail is a *little* bit like a Hurricane (but more triangular... )

I did try a bit of lateral thinking and had a search for model kits that may have been produced to tie in with the anime, but came up blank. However, I would expect that *someone* must have tried building something like this at least once; anyone got a large collection of 80s Hobby Japans they're prepared to search through...?! :lol:

Edit: the "Revi C/120", BTW, is the reference to the make of gunsight shown in the book scans, just in case anyones wondering.

Edited by F-ZeroOne
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Destroids Rage: not at all!!

The book is really wonderful and in the style of Macross Perfect Memory (though shorter). Unfotunatelly it belongs to a friend of mine who is living in Switzerland nowadays. I made a little Bf-109G6 with Arkadia markings for him as a goodbye present. Here is a pic of the model (the full article is in the Modelersite site I mentioned before)

The biplane seems to be totally invented but It would be nice to make a model of it... (too many modelling projects) I wonder what kits are the best for kitbashing it??

For a while I was fascinated by the Arcadia's starfighters that are based on the Bf-109D/Ta-152. I even bought some cheap 1/72 Bf-109D models to kitbash (fuselage, landing gears and cockpit/canopy are almost the same, but the wings, intakes and exhaust should be made from scratch. Nice idea but I have a pile of Hasegawa Macross kits that can be build as decent models almost straight from the box. Oh, well... If any of you want the scans from this starfighter or the others I posted here in better res let me know and I will send them by email (I have them in hi res 2Mb per scan)

David: You are right there is a lot of details about the german fighters but not from the allies ones. I have the feeling that Leiji Matsumoto is more interested in WWII axis (i.e. Japanese, German and Italian) stories and characters than in the allies ones. When you see his short stories in "The Cockpit" OVA you can find that he wants to put axis characters in a more human dimension and not just as evil monsters. This a good thing since we have too many films and stories from the allies side and just a few from the other side (I rememember just Das Boot as an example of this)

EDIT: forgot the pic!!

Edited by Gerwalker
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