VFTF1

I am having the same thoughts. Obviously, if money wasn't tight, then despite their flaws, I'd get these DXs and be happy that I have Macross Frontier toys. But... When I think about all of their crappiness as revealed by the mini-review and the pictures, I begin to wonder...aren't there like...you know...a dozen OTHER things I'd RATHER have for that money that...er...you know...are a lot cooler? If there were ever a fighter worth getting on clearance at 75% off - this is the one. That's probably the nicest thing I can think of saying about it... hopefully other people - or even Graham - will put up more pictures... But... when I look at a picture of a Yamato fighter I am really really in awe and blown away. Heck - just go to the "strike a pose thread" - can you imagine people suddenly throwing their VF-25s up in a thread full of Ivanovs and VF-1 v.2s? And yes - someone here is also right about something else: how can a hand swapping, not capable of storing his gun without a removable tab, not capable of storing his knife thingy be called perfect transformation? I dunno. I still have some time to decide - but I have a bad feeling about these and - like I wrote above - they are now on life support - all of them: Mikhael, Luca - the whole lot. If they had to turn out this crappy then - no offence to Mr. Kawamori - but they could have AT LEAST put Ranka on the box instead of his mug I would buy anything that has Ranka on it - including those little Subaru remote control cars... Pete

I...just...watched...episode...8.... Pete

Wow. MP Thundercracker looks....blue. Reeeaallly blue Can't wait to get mine and take a picture of the trio together Pete

But actually that pic of the model turns me off to it as well. I am used to Yamato trying to figure out how to protect the pilot while he's in battroid mode. And I am used to the design of Macross Valkyries taking this into consideration. I seriously doubt Shoji Kawamori designed the VF-25 with THAT in mind. I mean - that's just hideous. Look at the YF-19 - look how smart in shields the pilot's cockpit. I thought the VF-25 would at least be able to shield it similar to how SV-51 does. But here it basically just gets put on the butt of the battroid and has the wing/backpack thrown over it... it's all wrong I'm starting to think Bandai developed these to coincide with the Origins of Valkyrie line. Buy an Origins figure and put it next to this and they'll match. Pete

Well, I might still get it. I just tend to throw hissy fits sometimes Pete

Oh-my-God. That is just insanely bad. It's as if they decided to hire a Knock Off factory to make these. Not only does Alto basically sit in the VF-25's ass, but he's totally ....err...vulnerable. I guess the Powers Above were looking out for me when I decided on Groxier X and Hikaru VF-1J instead of waiting one more day for these...icky poos So disappointed... that picture just takes the cake though... that's just aweful. I mean - when I look at some of Bandai's other works, it's just like...what? Why did they spend so much money sponsoring the anime and paying for the license just to make...this? Then again - maybe the target audience is really little kids? I dunno. I'm clueless. Here's hoping that the VF-25 will find its' way into the Soul of Chogokin line or something - that is - a new mold, a better mold... Pete

I just went and took another look at the Alto and Ozma 1/72 models. Bye Bye DX. I'm not getting you guys. I'm not getting the DX Alto, the DX Ozma or the DX Luca and Mihkael. I am going to bite the bullet and get the models. I am not a good modeler. I've only but 4 Mastergrade Gundams and 4 High Grade Gundams and nothing else. But I will show my love for Macross Frontier by putting in a big effort to make the model come out nice. The DX is just icky poo. Pete

Hm. Dag. Hm. Well - thanks for the pics and the mini-report Graham. I have to say my enthusiasm for the DX is on life support at the moment. I am honestly GLAD that instead of the Alto and Ozma DX, I scooped up Yamato's Groxier X and 1/60 v.2 Hikaru 1J with super and strike parts. For a minute - I had a pang of "oh no!" when suddenly it did indeed come out now (as in "oh no! I should have waited one more day!") - but now that pang is gone after seeing ONE picture. Which one? The one where Ozma's VF-25 is in fighter mode right next to the Yamato 1/60 YF-19. It is an EMBARRASMENT to place the Bandai DX fighter next to the Yamato fighter. It's like putting a Matchbox VF-1 next to the 1/60 version (1 or 2!). It just looks so - as one member put it - cheap. Cheap glossy plastic. Also - the pilot is HORRIBLE. Now - you might say "well it's just al ittle pilot figure what's the big deal?" -- well - the big deal is that the pilot is VISIBLE in fighter mode and if the pilot looks like a plastic piece of GOOP that has one minor shade of paint over him - then it just makes the entire piece feel like a little matchbox car with a plastic bulb sticking out as the "driver." And the fact that this goop pilot is not removable makes it worse. Look at the cockpits on the Yamato fighters - the pilots look real - they are sculpted and painted with exacting detail. Look at the price tag on the Bandai DX - it is the same as the price tag on the Yamato VF-1 1/60 v.2 There's just no way that in this modern day and age when a relatively small company can pull of the VF-1 v.2 1/60, that Bandai could not have given us a better DX - especially given how the 1/72 model kit turned out. The pvc bendy antena are like the ultimate slap in the face. My Bandai SOC Spec EVA-01 doesn't have a bendy unicorn horn... My Dancouga does have bendy mini-side cannons on his chest/elephant head, and Voltes V does have bendys on his feet/little radar vehicle - but those are excusable given the minor role these parts play in the figure overall. The antena on the DX are very prominent. The entire head aesthetic is ruined by the bendy PVC antena... The die cast metal supporting the shoulder frame is unpainted and does not compose well with the glossy cheap plastic of the figure. IT MAKES IT LOOK LIKE A TOY and not an accurate representation. Look at those up close pictures of Ozma's shoulders with the stubs of shinny die cast metal just peeking out screaming "I am 1984 Transformers Megatron! Roar!" I am equally annoyed sometimes at the "stubs" which hold the ball joint and connect to the Yamato VF-1 shoulders - but guess what? Those can be hidden and you don't see them in any pose if you pose it properly. Here it sticks out like a sore thumb. Also - I notice that the hands are fixed pose - for fixed pose hands they are pretty flimsy. The gunpod bends down and is not held straight... Again - Yamato also have "flimsy" hands - but at least they are not fixed posed and if you carress them, the Gunpod will stay straight and look cool and proper. So... The fighter mode sucks because of the glossy plastic, the stubby lines and above all because of the non-removable reminder that this is a little kid's toy - namely the pilot... Heck - you can't even open the cockpit! I mean - if you do - then you see this white plastic gloop square instead of legs, and instrument panels. You also see ugly stubs along the cockpit hatch. This figure is just terrible. For the asking price - it could have been ten times better. It is almost as though they had three goals here: 1) make it kid friendly (but then why the collector price?) 2) make it NOW! (maybe the DX was originally sleighted to come out fast, like, when the show was still on, so they rushed the prototype, and when it turned out that even it had kinks to be worked out it got delayed -and so now we're getting...a delayed rush job? 3) Don't let the guys who designed the (transformable!) model have any input into the DX team 4) Give this project to Ed - the new guy we just hired who likes Robotech and can't wait for Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen to hit theaters. Seriously - judging from these pictures - this thing is a disgrace. I was initially happy that it was in 1/60 scale because at least it could sit next to my Yamato fighters. Now I don't know what I'll do. But there are a million other mechas out there - Yamato and Bandai and other - that are SO MUCH BETTER than this. I'm the biggest Macross Frontier fan in the universe. I love the anime. I think it's absolutely amazing. I love Ranka. I love Alto. I love Ozma and I would love to have a huge Macross Frontier collection. But this is downright embarrasing Bandai. Everything looks bad I MIGHT still buy the product - but I will definitely NOT buy extras. I'm buying lots of Yamato VF-1s v.2 because they are that cool. I am also planning on getting more SV-51s, more VF-OSs etc - to have a big fleet. Naturally, this is a long process, but something like "1 SV-51 per year" (meaning actually 3 - because 1 Nora, 1 Ivanov and 1 Alpha) is possible - slowly but surely. I just can't see myself wanting to do that with these ugly terrible figures I am very sad that they look like this because I was really looking forward to them - but they just suck in all modes. The non-removable stubby pilot (sorry to bring it up a third time) is just sooo bad! I mean - it doesn't look like a pilot - it looks lik an after thought and it RUINS the fighter mode. Everything and anything that MIGHT be good in the fighter mode goes down the pisser thanks to that icky poo pilot. They could have at least made him removable - then I would just remove it and not worry about it - but it's permanent??? Ok - honest to God - you know what this looks like? It looks like a freaking POWER RANGER. Yes. There I said it. But it does! It looks like they took the Power Ranger design team and put them to work on Macross frontier. And the result is that we have GO GO MACROSS RANGER! Very very VERY dissapointed. Pete

Holy balony Batman! Macrossjunkie: That is a wicked cool pose! Pete

Umm... of course it makes sense. Small children are incapable of using computers - therefore it is a waste to buy them one. Cats have no use for any medium of exchange, including gold coins, so giving them to a cat is also a waste. Hence giving a computer to a child IS like giving gold coins to a cat and the literal translation is perfectly sensible here. "Entrusting a Cat with a dried bonito" ---- what's a bonito? "A meowing cat catches no rats" ---> makes perfect sense - he catches no rats because his meowing lets the rats know where he is so he looses the element of surprise. Apply this to humans and it could mean something like: If all you do is complain, you will never succeed. "Have an injury on ones' shin" (shady past) ---> agan makes perfect sense - it brings to mind bad little boys coming home to mom, swearing up and down that they were good, but the injuries on their shins show that they were fighting/playing roughly/doing something that got them dirty/injured/something they shouldn't have done. Trying to figure out what idioms means has nothing to do with language, but with the thought presented in the idiom. As soon as you know the literal translation, you can begin thinking about what it means. I don't think idioms are always going to be clear cut and to the point - they wouldn't be idioms then. And idiom is not something like "touch the hot stove and you get burned" - that's merely a statement of fact. To my mind, idioms are (like the ones you presented) comparissons of seemingly outlandish examples which do end up having something to do with one another. No. All language is a falsification of the original. Any language is always a falsification of reality to some extent. Words supposedly signify things, but often times the words cover up the things they are trying to uncover for us. How am I supposed to learn anything if I don't pose questions and arguments? If people are who are ignorant are supposed to "quit arguing" - then how do you expect them to get smarter? Kieth: I'm happy you exist to write what I apparently am unable to write despite writing so much. I TOTALLY agree. Pete

Again - you're absolutely right. But We're also not talking about professional translations, but fan subs - or at least I thought we were (are we?). Most anime, as far as I can tell, is subbed by fans because it is not licensed outside of Japan and even if an anime eventually gets licensed, fans still sub it long before it officialy debutes in their country. Now, I think that for unpaid lovers of anime, most of these fan subs are pretty decent - at least the ones I've watched. I deduce this on the basis of my being able to come on this board and hold discussions about the anime in question with people who understand the original Japanese, and overall we seem to be on the same page and have "heard/seen" the same words in the anime which meant the same things to us. But I wouldn't demand of anime that it be professional like a translating company that does movies and books for money. I'm just saying that in general, if a fan is subbing an anime, then I would generally prefer that (within reason) they try to give me a literal translation rather than a flowery, stylistic interpretation. Nothing more than that Pete

I'm getting the OD and...my God - that OD Tomahawk box is the BEST boxart Yamato has had to date! That is just beautiful! I wish the other figures had such lovely boxart Pete

Gubaba: That is really atrocious given the importance that Mountains play in Plato's work. Particularly in the Laws he specifically has the Athenian Stranger ruminate on how a better world would be born after all of humanity were flooded and only "the Mountain Men" survived and came down from the mountains into the vallies with new laws modeled on philosophy. Even though the Clouds are a comedy, comedy does not mean "not taking the target seriously," so it would be very important to find the original songs that Aristophanes wrote about because they were probably a comment/gag about an important subject: namely Plato's view of Mountains and the life of Mountain Men. In any event - I'm not surprised that you read this kind of stuff, since your good natured humor reveals a philosophical predisposition. Not to mention anybody who names themselves after a silent ball of furr has to be smart. But I'll shut up now before we end up starting a Mutual Adoration Club, or whatever those things are called. Pete

Ok - time to flesh out my impressions of End of Evangelon. Only took me...what?...11 years to get on the band wagon? For those who care: I first watch the NGE series on youtube a couple months ago, and then EoE as well, but the small format does not allow for full exposure, so I managed to get around to getting myself a regular format high quality view of both. I have written about my impressions with NGE in the appropriate NGE thread, and here I will write my thoughts about EoE. But first: Dear lord was it hard to find this thread! There seem to have been at least 5 or 6 EVA threads - my favorite being "End of Evangelon Quickie"...anyways - glad I found this thread...and here we go: --- The Masturbation Scene: Pure gold. My favorite scene in all of Neon Genesis Evangelon lore (that I have seen up to now). Better than Episode 20's sex "scene." Better because the latter was actually very poetic and beautiful and full of warmth and love (in spite of Misato's view low view of her affair with Kaji). Meanwhile - this masturbation scene was basically Shinji in a nutshell: a crazy boy? No - a normal boy in a crazy world. Yep - normal. Because we have to take this scene in context. If there were no EVAs, if there was no NERV, no Human Instrumentality Project - in short if life looked like Shinji's imagination from episode 26 where he and the girls were just normal school children, then I highly doubt he would have masturbated on Asuka if she had been hospitalized. Under the circumstances, however, what we have is a combination of a boy coming to grips with angst and the pain of growing up (when you become conscious of how much pain and evil exists in the world and are also - largely due to being a child - feeling powerless to do anything to stop it) with a situation in which the world is literaly coming to an end. If Shinji has any morality in him; it is actually only as a result of his self-loathing. His self-loathing serves as a kind of limit on his otherwise raging passions: raging because he, like the other post-Second Impact children - never had an upbringing; never had a real family, never had people teach them how to live. Well - actually - scratch that: Shinji has Misato. But she's no where to be found. He even has Asuka, but she's comatose for all intents and purposes. "Call me stupid like you always do!" sums up Shinji's existence: he began to feel safe in his little world in Misato's apartment, and now all of the signs of safety are crashing and only "reality" remains - and reality is imminent death - of everyone. From a story point of view: there is no better way to summarize all of the above than in this masturbation scene. So good job director/writer/whoever. Moving on - The death of Misato is very moving - because I just can't stand how much she also hates herself - why? She loves Kaji - it's not like she sleeps around with tons of other guys - she might be lonely and she might be a flirt - but she loved Kaji and was loved by him. Besides - her extrovertive flirtatiousness is largely the result of her experiencing the Second Impact. It's her way of shutting out the silence of being mute all those years. And the way she convinces Shinji to pilot EVA- using womanly temptation - carressing him, kissing him, telling him they'd be together when he came back - treating him like a man and wanting him as a man - it's brilliant. It's effective, but I think deep down it's also somewhat true. It's very touching that she dies thinking of Kaji. Akagi Ritsuko: A terrible character and a terrible death. If I were her mother, I'd also chose my lover over my daughter if my daughter put me in that situation. Ristusko had no reason to turn on Gendo except stupid jealousy. I'm probably wrong about this - but I never liked the character. She was always too much of a scientist and not enough of a woman for my taste. I also find it symbolic that she drowns after floating in the water dead for a while. Those who know what the Akagi is understand the symbolism. But in any event - I rather didn't like the way her character played out. In fact, she is the most underdeveloped of the main cast - and yet she gets such a dramatic exit - it's a bit senseless. I don't really understand why she did what she did. Gendo: Hm. Well - he loved Yui. That much was clear. But what I don't understand is why he pursued the EVA project in the first place? Was he a believer in the Human Instrumentality Project - and then only after Yui's death started to see it as a vehicle for being with her again? Needless to say Gendo's problems are very much like those of Shinji. General comments: I prefer the TV ending. EoE is way to chronological for my taste - the whole thing seems a bit forced - kind of like the polar opposite of what the TV ending gave us. The TV ending was chaotic, obviously created under durress - a mess of ideas thrown together and a lot of frustration - but also a large dose of freedom. It's as though precisely because they "didn't care" any more and had no money any more that they felt liberated to do whatever they thought - to be creative - to make the episodes themselves a kind of work in progress. EoE has the opposite pressure hanging over it. It's almost as though there were no room for creativity in EoE - everything had to work like clockwork. First A happens, then B, then we need to show C, and then let's show D and E. And of course if we want to get to G, we have to show F first - and so on straight to Z. In this sense it was very unlike NGE - it didn't have the spirit of NGE because part of what made NGE special was the extent to which it got progressively "worse" - the action scenes melted away, more static scenes appeared, scenes became more and more drawn out - "problems" became visible in the actual form of the material at the same time as the story took a turn towards a higher number of problems as well. This all worked very well and was way more powerful than the beautiful orderly visual that EoE gives us. And Rei...oh...what a terrible waste of a good character. Rei supposedly heroically chooses to be herself and not a puppet of Gendo...great... but... She then goes on to become a puppet of Gainax. From the moment she makes her choice, she looses any semblence of being an interesting character and transforms into the ultimate plot devise that moves the main story ark along. It's almost as though she were choosing to be the puppet of all humanity - a vessel for human souls - rather than just for Gendo's aims - but still being a puppet. This is sad. Rei's fate is the sadest fate in the whole series. Final thought: Is Shinji gay? Why is he more at ease with his naked friend reaching out to him then naked Rei reaching out to him? Then again - Shinji can't be gay given the beginning and middle of this movie - so I guess Shinji's sexuality is like the rest of him: a mess Pete

None taken. Maybe I have, once again, not been clear about what I mean. Of course "what the fool you make me" is completely "wrong" from the point of view of grammar. I can also see how, at some level, you could argue that it makes no sense. I can certainly see that, looking at the sentence from the point of view of a reporter, where you need to make things clear and to the point for as broad an audience as possible (I'm assuming that you don't work in some arcane niche reporting on the minute details of...say...fly fishing...which might give you some lee-way), the sentence does indeed make "zero sense." However, what I was trying to indicate was that, given how sentences are structured in other languages, one becomes accustomed to juggling words and allowing the mind to have them played with. I used the example of knowing one other language fluently, and a third at a moderately adequate level - but perhaps a better example will suffice: I hope that others can confirm what I am about to write (otherwise I'll feel very alone:) ) - but: If you have ever lived in, and especially worked in a foreign country, and in particular - if you have had to communicate in english with people from numerous different countries (not just the foreign country you happen to be living/working in), then you will discover - I think - that being a stickler for english grammar and propriety can be a drawback, or, at the very least, it becomes necessary to tolerate variations of the english language. I have worked with people from various parts of the world and we would always communicate in english. My english is American, and more specifically, midwestern. My counterparts would be from various corners of the world and it would have been very rude of me to interrupt them at every turn to correct their grammar or even say things like "can you repeat that?" There are doctors, lawyers - experts in many fields who have a truly vast store of knowledge in their field but only a rudimentary grasp of english; and even if they have a very good grasp of english, they still make what we would consider grammatical errors and slips of the tongue due to their background. Now - imagine for a moment that you have this aforementioned international setting without any Americans (or Brits or Aussies) - aka - without any native english speakers. Imagine that you have folks from China, Israel, Pakistan, Columbia and numerous other places all interacting and speaking the one language that is most commonly used in our world: english. What do you think is going to happen to that language? It will be twisted, convoluted and changed in many ways that will be appalling for a native English speaker brought up to "spell properly" and who has a basic understanding of grammar. Yet - for these foreigners who use english to communicate amongst themselves, their "mistakes" will simply be new and different conventions. And now think of this situation: a foreign lawyer is telling you something important in english. You basically understand him and get the gist of his point, but some of his sentences are twisted. Do you scold him for bad grammar? Do you demand that he repeat himself and feign ignorance until he realizes that he is speaking with errors? That would be highly embarassing imo. At some point - you just accept that english is no longer simply an American language, or British or Canadian - it is now in many ways a global language and grammar and style is now more dynamic than ever. Of course this doesn't mean that you toss all rules out the window and that there are no longer standards of excellence in written and spoken english - but certainly it would be unhealthy to be excessively rigid - I think - in terms of what we accept as proper english. But then again - as usual - I probably have the minority view on this too. In fact, sometimes, when I have let people know that they are making persistent mistakes in english only after a longer acquaintance and when pressed with questions like "so - how is my english?" - then they are suddenly upset that I didn't mention their mistakes earlier, because they consider it embarassing that they are making these mistakes. But honestly - people make so many crazy mistakes, and there are so many twisted versions of english that it just would be impossible to correct them all. Instead, I just try to understand what is being said - even if it sound wacko... Pete

I'm a native English speaker and I don't think it's wrong to think so. If that's the impression you got, then I guess I have some explaining to do. Of course I realize that there's little point in a translation which intentionally tries to complicate things. Where ever it is possible for the translation to be coherent, both in terms of form and content, then obviously this is a good thing. So - no - I don't want wierdness unless it is warrented by the situation. You're absolutely right that this is one of the risks and pitfalls that await anyone who ventures into translations with the idea that they are somehow going to "preserve original intent." Especially when, lots of times, they see "intent" that was never in the original work in the first place. So - I agree - this is a risk. But again, I repeat - with dubs, one doesn't even have the chance to see whether or not something is being falsified - one is simply spoon fed somebody's translation - not just verbal, but audible (spic?) - tone, voice... If I had to be very brief in stating my view it would be: "I agree with Kieth." But since Kieth isn't doing much explaining of why he holds his opinion, then I am trying to explain why I hold mine instead of just saying subs rule/dubs suxorz Pete

Dag - Alto looks so good with the super pack. Where can I get these? Pete

To my mind the only problem in reaching that pose would be that the legs don't "split" outwards... as for joints - which ones would be too weak? None of my Ivanov's joints are weak...old man (had to add the Obi Wan reference) But this is a cool pose and I should try it - although I'll probably try with my Nora - my Ivanov happens to be in fighter mode now and I don't feel like transforming him. Nora's in battroid mode and eager to pose for pictures:) Pete

I'm getting all my VF-1s 1/60 v.2 with Super and Strike parts anyways. The whole set is too good a deal to pass on the super and strike parts just for the jest. And...I hope to take those pictures tomorrow because now I'm tired from eating, drinking and resting all throughout Christmas Pete

Just some fair warning to Keith: Please prepare yourself to be bombarded with more questions Tonight, I am going to sit down and watch EoE in all of its' glory, and will of course post comments in the appropriate thread tomorrow. Pete

Heh Cacophanus - the most popular Cannon Fodder on Macross World Forever will bow at your feet... as long as you give us those pictures within the next 24 hours please Congratulations and happ birthday EDIT: Well - now Ozma is out. Too bad I won't be getting mine till March Pete

Since this keeps getting asked I will make a big effort for you today. I will go get three things: 1) my broken-shoulder-out-of-the-box Roy 2) my perfect-shoulder-out-of-the-box Roy 3)my perfect-shoulder-out-of-the-box Hikaru 1A And take pictures of all three (shoulder hinges) and let you be the judge, since I'm not very technically proficient and also don't know what to look for. Pete

Gubsy: Well - perhaps you are trying to convince yourself of something that even I am not convinced of, and am not trying to convince you or anyone else of. First, I already noted that in the case of literal translations, it usually is necessary to have not merely "some kind of footnote," but usually footnotes spanning almost the same number of pages as the original work [and I suppose in the case of anime you would need a text document of footnotes to go with the episode]. Secondly, of course you're still falsifying the work just by translating it from one language to the next - literally or not; and you have made an excellent point that even the "wierdness" of the literal translation is not the same as the wierdness of the original language itself. However: a) Perhaps what is key here is moderation. If the text is TOO literal, then it could be simply uninteligible; not wierd and interesting, but simply sloppy, ungrammatical, poorly concieved and having absolutely no value whatsoever. Likewise - if the text is TOO interpretive and stylized, then the fact that it can be input by the reader so easily makes it very dangerous because it makes the reader think he is simply understanding a simple thing and keeps him blind to any more complex matters inherent in this thing. b) Please notice - if we are going to start talking about the extent to which a translation (literal or otherwise) is a falsification of the original language - that the the original language itself is also a falsification of the thing. To give an example - remember the teaching of Sara's father from Macross Zero? He taught Sara that long ago, there was only one word for lief - and then there became many words - and even though in the beginning, these many different words might have been merely different ways of looking at the same thing, then at one point, the words did not become different ways of looking at the thing, but only different ways of looking at one another: that is, different translations of one another. The words had less and less to do with the thing they attempted to signify and more to do with themselves - and the truth of the lief was lost. Another example, this time non-Macross. Consider the word "penny." Is it round? Is it copper? No -yet it signifies something that has these properties. But at the same time as it reveals certain properties of a thing, it also closes our view from the essence of the thing - because we start seeing not the penny, but merely the word penny which holds in it a certain amount of properties (usually as defined by a dictionary). At some point - words become paramount and language, which is supposed to help shed light on the world, becomes the biggest enemy to seeing things as they are. (now you know why I love Macross Zero and Sarah Nome:) )... So - the point? Translation is always a lie - it always falsifies. My whole point is not to be afraid of this conclusion and not to aspire towards the safety of "a broad consensus" of "dubbed works" which forever close us from the problem we are discussing. Much better to have a thousand versions of an anime episode then just one. Also - the phrase you bring up - What the fool you make me? - sounds perfectly fine to me. I am not very multilingual. I only know two languages fluently, and one language half-heartedly (I managed to pick up three French chicks in Micigan once, and take them all to dinner, and speak passable French to them the whole time... I don't know whether they were just being polite or not - but I think if my French is sufficient to engage the atttention of three girls, then it's a-OK French!)... Anyways - from my knowledge of languages (very limited) - this statement "what the fool you make me? - is actually a very typical way of putting things in non-english. Language is a playful thing. I mean - look at the "correct" version in English: "Just what Kind of fool do you take me for?" - if we were to be very literal about this (correct) version, then we would have to suppose that someone is literally taking (into their hands? Into their pocket? Into a suitcase?) another person....for something? It makes no sense. Yet to our english-ears - it makes perfect sense. Every language has such phrases which, if looked at dryly, are actually ridiculous but taken for granted in the convention fo the given language. So - no - I wouldn't be shocked or ill at ease to read "what the fool you make me?" in a sub. It would put a smile on my face and I would start thinking about how amusing and different structure is in the Japanese language, that it sounds like that. In Polish, we say (translating literaly from "What kind of fool do you take me for?"): "For what fool me have?" - the reason it's not "for what fool me have you?" is because in Polish the "you" is inherent in the conjugation of the "have" - in English you don't really have such conjugations - you almost always need to insert a you, he, she, it, we etc. "What the hell are you talking about" - on the other hand - is very far away from "what kind of fool do you take me for" - which is closer to "what the fool you make me?" As for Shin's "What is City?" instead of "a city, huh?" - again - for me, this is not "wierd." In Polish, you can say "what is a city?" but you can also use the word "what" to mean "a city huh?" (literally: City what?) because "what" can be used a bit like "huh" since in Polish "what" is a two-letter word and pretty catchy ("co"). I'm sure that other people who know a few languages have similar stories they could tell of wierdness in their local dialects vs. english. Again: my whole point is that it's far better to have all these various subs to consider and talk about - look how much I'm learning from you guys about Japanese thanks to it - than if we were all right now discussing the english dub of Macross with no reference to original Japanese dialogue. The very fact that you Japanese speakers keep giving me examples of "bad subs" just proves my point - because the examples serve to teach me more about what is being said, what is meant by the language, and what the problems and things to be wary of in the story with regard to translation are. Pete

Maybe your wife is just jealous, and she secretly wanted a Voltes V toy for herself? Pete

I prefer "raining even though the sun is out...just like a fox becoming a bride" to "raining even though the sun is out...just like a sun shower." Why? Because the second rendition sounds pretty banal, whereas the first - literal - rendition gives you food for thought - and actually DOES make sense. A fox is cunnin and dangerous and can eat you - and often times this is the nature of women, and yet men take them to be brides, because women can often manipulate men into looking away from their fox-like nature, and not seeing the risk involved. This is like "raining even though the sun is out" because the presence of the sun makes you almost inclined to forget the rain, like the persistence of a woman makes you almost forget that she could be manipulating you and be dangerous as a fox. The fact that it sounds "wierd" in english is all the more reason to give the literal translation; it's funner then to think about the relations between foxes and women and sun and rain. Otherwise, with the "dumbed down" translation - all you get is a pretty banal idiom, and clearly the comparison is more sophisticated than that. As someone who doesn't know Japanese; I would be more interested in getting that more sophisticated strange translation and thinking about how Japanese culture looks on foxs and women, then getting the banal translation that has a seemingly more "normal" ring to it. Literal translation is not flawless, and you are right about all of the pitfalls and risks you mention. However, my argument has always been that literal translation is preferable precisely because it does not hide its' flaws. Interpretive, stylistic translations pretend to serve you something that has no problems, no strangeness and sounds nice and is easily understood. However, this takes you even further away from experiencing the original intention of the work than a literal translations full of problems would. So, it is precisely because literal translations are flawed and imperfect that they are preferable - their flaws and imperfections point to differences in culture and language which can only lead us to learn more. In order to learn, we need to see a problem or a riddle first. Only literal translations show you the riddles. As to the example of "close the door" - from the point of view of strict english grammar - you are correct, because "close the door" is a "command." But, in english, the "command" form might be called "command" but it does not literally mean that it is always a command in the sense of 'DO IT NOW!!!' - it is simply a form of speaking, and does not suggest compulsion, or the threat of force. I would say that in translating from your language into English, it would be best to just leave it at "close the door" - even if the context might make it sound strange - let people experience the strangeness. Let them look at the context and wonder about it. Let them try to extrapolate from the strangeness the question of why, in Dutch (I assume that is your language?) it is fine to just say "close the door" rather than adding "please" or "could you/would you." Again - the argument I am making in favor of literal translation is not that it is flawless because it is so literal, nor that there are not issues of choice and interpretation involved even when trying to be literal - only that this is preferable to pretending that there are no problems. As to the notion that this would only be good for academic texts - I personally think this opinion gives too little credit to anime as an artistic form. One would think that, until one has the experience of throwing on a DVD with the girlfriend/wife. "Subs." "No dubs." "No subs." "No dubs." "Well then you can watch your damn subs and I'm going to sleep." "oh, ok sweetheart, don't get mad, we can watch dubs...." Actually - in Poland - it's even worse: there's a THIRD option. In Poland, every single foreign movie has the option of a narrative voice over. So basically - everyone speaks the original language in the movie but there is this LOUD MALE VOICE talking in Polish the whole time. It's psychotic and completely ruins every film, but it's tradition and the way Poles have done their movies for the past 50 years... I personally can't stand it because it's the same freakin' guy talking the entire time - indeendent of whether it's a woman character speaking, and independent of scene. And the narrative voice makes no attempt to reflect intonation or context. You could be watching an intense erotic scene and the narrative voice just drones on in monotone: "Yes yes harder." You could be watching someone screaming in pain as they die, and the narrative voice just drones in monotone: "Oh it hurts. Oh God ack." So - this is partially why I also prefer subs... Pete