Keith

I agree with you JBO. However, my point is that the character Basara is not believable. Keith, I know Basara is special to you. That is painfully obvious. Someone's gotta have counterpoint here, as the character is getting far too unfair a rap. WTF? I did not express anything of that sort. Keith, you are reading into what I am posting. I thought I had made it clear that I agreed with the concept of "war is evil" and "give peace a chance." No sane person desires to kill people. Soldiers do so because they have to. I realize in the case of M7 that Basara is not a soldier and is only the lead guitarist for fire bomber. Which reminds me. And yet you constantly complain that because he doesn't shoot, his flying skill is somehow lessoned. How the hell did Basara get clearance to launch his fighter into a combat zone in the first place? Are we supposed to assume there are no regulations concerning aerospace traffic on the colony ships. "Project-M" Through coincidence, both Dr. Chiba & Ray had similar idea's regarding a solution to potential future conflicts. Ray through knowing Kinryu got in contact with Max & got clearance to come aboard City 7 & train Basara to fly. Max knowing Chiba got the custom hardware built. Basara under "Project-M" had clearance to come & go as he pleased onto the battlefield. I am positive this issue is not addressed in any episode. Certainly not in Ep. 1, when, if I'm not mistaken, Gamlin threatens to have Basara arrested for entering the combat zone and tapping into the military channel but nothing ever comes of it. Then in episode 3, when Gupernich orders Gigil to attack the M7 fleet (as a decoy) and in the middle of the Supernova concert, woooosh! Off goes Basara to fly into the battle zone, and then this type of crap continues for much of the series. It's actually addressed amongst several episodes, though most notably the one in which Sound Force is officially established. And while Gamlin complains about Basara being on the battlefield in several episodes, he is silenced by Kinryu, & instructed to leave Basara alone. At no point in time was Max unaware of Basara's presence or purpose. That is total and complete B.S.. Nope, you just weren't paying attention. I'd like to see some Basara wanna-be just try and hack military communications going on over in Iraq. I'll bet his or her ass would be in cuffs and off to some undisclosed location faster than you can say "Bomba!" Not if he was sanctioned by those in charge. Basara didn't just spontaniously come across that Valkyrie, it was given to Ray by Max. I am fully aware that "its just a TV show, a cartoon." Though I sometimes wonder about some of us here at MW. You're the one with the passionate argument against it... Ace pilots like Capt. J.D. McConnell Jr. (16 kills) and Maj. J Jabara (15 kills), of Korean War/Mig alley fame, survived by shooting down their opponents before they were shot down. As did the other 37 American aces of Korea. A total of 792 MIG-15s were shot down, for only a loss of 78 F-86 sabers. If shooting has nothing to do with flying in a aerial battlespace, than explain why so many planes get shot down? So you're saying piloting skill has absolutely nothing to do with not getting hit? Guarunteed no. Have a much better chance of making it, yes. Many a consciencious objector met his end in Vietnam for choosing not to fight (approximately 3 out of 5. Source, U.S. Army Hickman report, dated 1975 A.D., on the usefullness of draftees.). And how many of those 3 out of 5 had stealth avoidence skill the likes of say Solid (or Naked) Snake? Keith, if you can not figure out why shooting back at an enemy in an aerial engagment will greatly enhance your chances of survival, then you need to take some time away from Macross and spend some serious time researching this subject (that is not meant as an insult). The military channel is a good place to start, the show "Wings at War", where actual military pilots are interviewed, should be of great help to you (seriously, no BS). Let me try putting this another way. You can have the biggest & best weapons on the battlefield, but if you can't fly worth a damn, they're not going to do you much good once someone outflies you & takes you out. I'm fully aware that "fewer" enemies equates to less of a possability of getting shot. But better avoidence also adds to survivability. If you can dodge, then you won't die is the general argument. worry about you Keith. If Kawamori had chosen Basara to be an honorable warrior, fighting only when he has to, then that is what Basara would have been. The outcome of the story would then have been determined by Kawamori. If it meant Basara firing a reactive weapon into Gupernich, and him being destroyed, then that is how it would have ended. Sometimes I wonder if you understand that. Sometimes you write posts that make me think you are "living the experience." Kawamori chose to potray an enemy that couldn't be defeated by weapons, one much stronger with more advanced technology. Fighting them wasn't a winning scenario, only death or enslavement would have resulted had Basara not been there. You can mock me all you want, but you're the one who missed the point of the story. They tried firing a reaction weapon into Gepelnitch, he just handed it right back to them & took out the Stargazer. The porpose was to show a no win situation if fighting would be all you could muster to do. The same can be said for SDF Macross. If Kawamori had decided to pull a Nishizaki (Space Cruiser Yamato) and had the Macross blow BoDolza's command ship away with one fell swoop (like the Yamato's wave motion gun) then that is how the series would have ended. I agree he made the story more interesting (and original) by having Lynn Minmei confuse the Zentran with her music and a Kiss (though I dislike the whole "singing solution" as it was portrayed in M7) and thus writing the story so the Zentran that had been exposed to the Earth's "culture" joined with the SDF Macross against BoDolza (who as we know was going to kill them all anyway, so it was a Kill or be killed situation for them). Bodolza was going to kill them anyway because they had been tainted with idea's that would have lead them to peace. If it was simply a matter of the song & kiss, Bodolza would have committed suicide when he first captured Hikaru & Misa. It wasn't the culture shock that was the threat (as it was even shown to be easily gotten used to), it was the idea's that were spreading amongst Britai's fleet. If Kawamori had done the Yoshiyuki Tomino thing and made Basara a civilian caught up in the war like Amuro Ray, who was forced to fight, rather than willingly fly into combat, without fighting, I would find this character more believable. And if that had been the scenario, then everyone would have died and or been enslaved by the Protodevelin. You're missing the pivotal aspect of the story. Fighting isn't always going to save your life, especially when you're up against someone stronger than you. As for Captain Herlock, he kills his enemies, period. I have seen all (except the new series)of the anime of Captain Herlock, from the 70s show to Arcadia of my youth, and his various appearances in 999. The character Herlock is nothing like the Basara character. Harlock kills because he choses to, he lives his life by his own standards. That is the similarity in the characters. If Harlock decided to just fall in line with the most convenient scenario, he never would have become a pirate. I went and watched the first 4 episodes again last night (I don't have time to watch all 49 again). I realize that it is not so much the Basara character's music or beliefs, its that he can survive so many battles without getting shot down/destroyed. It's just ludicrous. Max has never been shot down (unless of course you count DYRL, but that was a mutual defeat), therefore he must be just as ludicrus a character. However, I am not trying to convince you of whether or not the M7 fleet would have died without Basara's influence. That is acting like M7 is some kind of actual event. No, I am trying to relate to you that Mr. Shoji Kawamori could have made the character Basara more believable. Your account of believability is specifically tied in with your not being able to accept that someone can fly, not shoot, and still survive in a battle. You can dodge a bullet without returning fire. It's not. I was picking on Basara as a Jimi Hendrix wanna-be. You know, "Space-Hippie." I like Jimi Hendrix's music, so I guess I was not being fair to Mr. Hendrix. Now that I think of it, it's insulting to compare Hendrix to Basara. Jimi is far better than that. My apologies to any Hendrix fans here. It's a fair character type comparision, though you might as well throw John Lennon in as well. I just see your insistence that survival in flying equates to killing. You refuse to even comprehend the concept of evasion. Well, that is your opinion Keith. Mine is that Kawamori should redo Macross 7 and make it more "realistic" by either eliminating Basara from it completely or changing his character type to a more Kodai or Amuro Ray type character. We already had that with Hikaru, Macross 7 is taking things to the next level. Kawamori should be commended for not falling into the same old trappings, and actually coming up with a character who sticks to his convinctions. And hell, if you still miss that type of character in 7, there's Gamlin. In closing (since I feel like I'm writing a persuasive essay), I'd like to finish by saying that other than Superpilot/musician/political activist/special spiritia generating-Basara and the Autobot look of the Soundforce VFs, I like M7. You just miss the entire purpose of it...

Quote tags are fine, they just choose to stop working after a certain amount of text is achieved...

Realistic: adj. the theory or practice of fidelity in art and literature to nature or to real life and to accurate representation without idealization.--Source: Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 11th ed. It comes down to this, why do you consider the desire to kill people more realistic than the desire not to? Is it really more realistic to believe that someone would do as much as they can "not" to hurt people, as it is to believe that someone would do as much as they can to wipe others out? Pacifism in its purest/extreme form would have been more akin to Reelina in Gundam Wing, sitting by expecting people to follow her based on words alone. What Basara did was take an active role in attaining peace. He didn't ask anyone to blindly follow him, he didn't sit around and just expect things to happen, he went out and with as much effort as others would take to fight people into submission, he made himself heard. How is it not? Flying has nothing to do with shooting. How is anything Max does realistic for that matter? By that logic, those who fire in combat are guarunteed to live? Your argument is a bit too randomly biased. I suppose that would be where "moving" would come into play. I doubt you'll find any significant evidence stating that shooting & flying will make you more likely to survive an engagement than "not" shooting & flying. Again, unless it's a Tomino story, or even more extreme, a Nishizaki story, now that man knew how to kill off his characters with extreme prejudice. But to put things into perspective, it's all in how you look at things. In war, not everyone lives, not everyone dies. Depending on who you are, or who you know, there could be many more dead soldiers you don't know, than ones you do. And just as in fiction, when people you know do die, it affects you much more profoundly than the ones you don't. Of course you're forgetting (be it due to non-familiarity, or forgetfullness) just as many dramatic deaths in Macross 7. Physica was an example given earlier, Kinryu, Gamlin's various scrapes (including his very nicely done "near death" scene), Docker, Docker's ability to constantly lose wingmen, and my favorite, Gigil. While 7 clearly didn't have the animation budget of Plus, the dogfights are still much prettier than Macross TV. Actually, Basara isn't playing guitar at all (not until Dynamite anyway), it's been said many times before, and now once again, the VF-19 Kai's cockpit used a guitar "shaped" flight stick. All the control's were still handled through standard stick "styled" movement, with switches & slider's taking care of control's usually handled by triggers (and or other cockpit switches). Hell, the slider covered the neck of the guitar, making it impossible to play while it was in flight. Basara's singing was "Karaoke." I still fail to see why you think flying & not shooting is more likely to make you a target than flying & not. Not getting hit has more to do wth actual pilotting skill than targetting skill. Though I also don't see how you expect me to think "Hendrix" is a derogatory term. Look at it this way, Basara embodies all the ideal's put forth before, without any of the hypocracy. He hates war, doesn't want to fight, would prefer to move people's hearts, and you know what? He does so. You're also forgetting one other key aspect, though Basara refuses to fight, he doesn't prevent others than doing so (save for Mylene, who was an entirely different situation than the enlisted soldiers to begin with). He doesn't tell Gamlin not to shoot & protect the fleet, he doesn't tell any of the military not to shoot & protect the fleet. He doesn't do anything even remotely to prevent them from doing their job. If anything, in the beginning before he started having an effect, he still served to distract enough Varuta away as to prevent both civilian & mlitary casualties. Basara accepted the need for people to fight to protect others, he just chose to go about protecting in his own way. The message at its base is the same as with medicine. You can either treat the problem, or you can treat the symptoms. Simply fighting without trying to achieve a resolution only treats the symptoms. Trying to stop the source of the conflict (i.e. not the soldiers, but the minds behind them) is treating the actual problem, and Basara did that. Someone is always going to have a bigger gun, and eventually that someone isn't going to be your side. And again, Basara acknowledged the need for people to defend, he just chose to defend in a different manner, and didn't stop the military from doing it their own way. But looking back at Hikaru & the original series, it wasn't Hikaru's willingness to fight that saved everyone. Hell, he wasn't even there for the majority of the final battle with Bodolza (he took damage & was forced to land). It also wasn't Minmay's singing/kissing culture shock on the Bodolza fleet that allowed the Macross to break through their defenses & launch a reaction weapon barrage. What brought down the Zentradi was a change of philosphy within their ranks. It was experiencing the feelings & emotions that the spies unwittingly brought back with them & spread through out Britai's fleet. It was them hanging out with people, realising there was another way to be, and having their heart's moved (and in turn moving others) that resulted in a revolt within the Britai Adoclas fleet seeing their own actions causing in the destruction of that new way of life. It was that undeniable force that caused Britai & Exedore to make the decision that truly resulted in the winning of the war (signing a treaty & joining the Macross, or face their own destruction in a mindless conflict). Had the Macross simply armed itself with reaction weapons & jumped into the fray, it would have been destroyed along with Earth. Had Minmay simply sang & kissed Kaifun, the culture shock would have worn off quickly, and again, the Macross would have been destroyed along with Earth. It was the ability for the Zentradi to live with the Macross citizens, experience life & share those experiences, that caused Britai to join his fleet with the Macross, and combine all of the above elements to result in a skin of their teeth victory. But none of it would have happened without moving their hearts. And that's what Basara's purpose is in 7, not to sing & distract people, not to fly out & kill people, but to change people's minds and let them see they have other alternatives to fighting. Had Basara fought & killed period, he wouldn't have had his rightous passion, he'd be a hypocrite. He wouldn't have been able to move people, the 7 fleet would have come to the same climax against an enemy with infinately stronger tech, and everyone would have died. It was moving their hearts, and changing their minds that won against an unbeatable enemy, not hopelessly shooting at them. And in many ways Harlock embodies the most important aspects of Harlock. He lives his own way, by his own rules, regardless of the situation or costs. The only mistakes in 7 were in its early 90's animation, there was absolutely nothing wrong with its story or philosphy, I wouldn't expect a change there. Hell, its spirit carried through in Zero. It wasn't the VF-0, Reaction weapons, or Roy that defeated the AFOS, it was Shin's ability to touch Sarah's heart that convinced her to call off the attack, and prove that humans weren't only capable of dealing with conflict through fighting. Shin let go of his rage, and let everything ride on hope.

Unless it's a Tomino show, in which case you can die at any given minute, in some randomly gruesome way

I 100% dissagree about Basara. He's a completely realistic character, very much of the artistic mindset. As far as his survival, why is his survival so much less believable than anyone elses? His piloting skills are comparable with an top ace, he just chooses not to shoot. Plus flying the latest Pinpoint barrier equipped Valkyrie doesn't hurt either.

There are exceptions to this rule. IIRC, the official Flashback 2012 DVD is all-region. 330779[/snapback] Actually, it's Region 1, 2, 3, & 4 , though there are occasioanl legit all region disc's.

Nope, the 20th Anniversary DVD has the full intro, and all cut scenes from VFX-2, just the intro from 1 though, and none for M3.

If an e-mail address randomly pops up during the subtitles, then it's definately a bootleg!

When will he learn to listen to Mr. Wonka....

Hmm, did your 2 disc Macross Plus DVD set only have Japanese audio? Because if it didn't have an english dub, and or Manga Ent logo's, then it's a bootleg All Macross Zero DVD's that are under $40 and have any kind of subtitles are bootlegs. All Macross DYRL DVD's that are under $50-$70 & have subtitles are bootlegs.

Liquid Snake....

It's too bad our copyright laws are so tight everyone has to be sue happy. It's a lot more fun when anyone can safely make hentai without companies having to worry about someone stealing their licenses & such.

Far from all bootlegs are CD-R's, and most dual layered disc's are gold colored. If the Artwork is lavishly done, great silkscreening on the disc, and it comes in a gatefold box, then it's a bootleg. -Chinese subtitles is definately a dead giveaway, especially when english & chinese are the only options. -Amazon.com isn't 100% safe either. When you buy directly from their online stock yes, but they're plagued with potential bootlegs when buying from their used stuff. Hell, take a look at the Beatles "Help!" I guaruntee 10 out of 10 of those new & used for sale are bootlegs.

It's pretty apparent by the end of 3 that Ocelot has some Snake envy. In 1 he poses as Liquid's lackey, all the while spying for Solidus, and while he was shy a hand, there's no doubt he jumped for joy at the opportunity to take Liquid's.

That is an awesome page...but where's the "stuff" you were talking about

Yeah, Kojima really covered his ass by making The Sorrow Ocelot's father

Not as silly as he looks with that mustache....I'll get over it, but damn, his regular facial hair would have worked.

The reason is that it looks silly on him, he looks much better with a beard!

I can post some images, but they are graphic and may upset some visitors. Should I post links to them or just add the pictures. Hands up to see who wants pictures... 329525[/snapback] Anyone who doesn't know about nudity in Gunbuster probably wouldn't be reading this far into the topic anyway. I say post them if you want to post them, link if you want to link. This is a forum about a 23 year old show anyway, what's there to worry about?

It would make sense for him to look like Solidus, since he too was a Big Boss clone, one who'd aged faster for some reason...but th at mustache, I still say Ocelot!

Share?

Matsumoto's huge universe encompassing GE: 999, Harlock, Yamato, etc would definately be mine.

While I'd love a remake of Snatcher, one that expands into the mission into Russia after the initial story, I don't blame the Metal Gear series for it not happening. For some strange reason, Kojima just doesn't seem interested. Maybe he's waiting for standards on sex & nudity to lighten up again so he can ecchi it up more than the original.

MGS4 version

Just looked up the pictures, and I'm pleased to see that it is indeed a double homage original metal gear/metal gear Mk II from Snatcher