Mr March

I'm not really understanding dislike for the VF-17S head. I like it better than the VF-17D, but I guess that's just personal preference. I've often been confused by an apparent cross-over block between a segment of Macross and Gundam fandom. I've seen some Macross fans that just can't get into any Gundam mechanical design amd Gundam fans that just don't see anything of worth in Macross. I'm quite hardcore Macross, but I've never had any trouble appreciating the designs found in Gundam. Actually, I've never had any trouble appreciating mechanical designs from plenty of anime mecha shows like Gundam, Patlabor, Five Star Stories, Escaflowne, Neon Genesis Evangelion and so on. IMO, there's a lot to love My big problem with mecha shows of all types has been the story and sadly Gundam is no exception. However, I've found a good portion of the mechanical designs in Gundam are quality, especially my favorite mobile suit the RX-78NT-1 Gundam Alex. I also like the departure they've taken with the GN-001 Exia from Gundam 00. It's familiar Gundam of course, but I like the slightly different take on the traditional design.

I consider practically everything mecha. Mecha just means mechanical, so that covers most everything in sci-fi. When I'm posting on anime boards I often make the distinction out of habit, but I use mecha and mechanical design in every day speech. In any definition of mecha I'd include the Transformers, AT-AT/AT-ST/AT-TE and all the Star Wars droids, the Terminator, the Matrix Sentinels/Ships/APUs, Robocop/ED-209, Master Chief and all that stuff. The Transformers from the Bay film were quite ugly and too over-designed, IMO. They did sell menace when needed, but they had virtually nothing for aesthetic quality. It's funny, but some of the old original designs had more modern aesthetic appeal than the Bay versions

Whoa, revival of a very old thread Here's two VF-4 Lighting III customs I made a while back for another thread:

Never cared for the first Appleseed anime and haven't watched the new one. I've heard nothing but derision for this new film, but I think I would probably have seen it already if I hadn't seen and disliked the first OVA. I think of the Appleseed books as kind of a prototype for GITS. I'd probably give them another shot if I weren't collecting other manga right now. Appleseed has always just been one of those low-priority manga/anime that I only rarely get around to. As for GITS, there's so much hatred here on MW for anything that isn't SAC I've pretty much stopped talking about the films. For what it's worth, IMO the first film succeeded brilliantly in the departure from the source material, something that probably can't be said about the Appleseed animes.

eugimon That's not a bad theory. Also, many different fleets were shown to have different variable fighters such as the VF-14s of the Megaroad 13 fleet just two years prior to the events of Macross 7. This fleet might just have a different fighter complement. azrael Yeah, I'm going to stick with my theory for now. Might turn out differently once we actually see Macross Frontier, but I think it makes the most sense given the context. Sumdumgai Hmm, I think that might be stretching it a bit. The way animation works/doesn't work can often make it very hard to distinguish between human and mechanical when the mechanical is so human shaped. This is one of the reasons I love mecha that are clearly mechanical in design and can't be humanoid because of their shape. Digressing, I think those are just gloves he's wearing and the animation is styled such that you might think otherwise without the context of the scene. Just a guess. Big F I really doubt there is such a thing as a VF-17 Armor System. The VF-17 is already officially designated as a Heavy Battroid and given the Nightmare weighs several tons more than the other variable fighters I'd say it's already more heavily armored. Graham Well, the yellow panels are in the same area as the usual sensor systems on other variable fighters. My guess is it's something similar, just done differently (ie, in a more advanced way which is smaller and less bulky since it's internalized).

I think the control stick along the inside of the small robotic arm is a training device. I mean, the robotic arm is no larger than the arm of the person that is controlling it as shown in the trailer. Unless this unit is part of a roughly human sized power armor, I suspect it's some kind of training machine, which I think is plausible at the very least. I think it's just meant to help illustrate how the Valkyries are controlled in Battroid mode. Also, the sliding mount has been seen before, as GGemini has said. The control stick itself is situated on a movable mount that can be slid forward or backward. The Macross Plus movie showed this and there was also a similar control in DYRL. Can't recall if we saw it in Macross Zero again or not.

sketchly Thanks for the translation! Aegis It was my pleasure azrael Oh yeah, the letter designations are very likely still going to happen. I like them. It's easy to distinguish them that way. On a different note... I posted some thoughts about CG animation on the MAHQ and I want to repeat those here. As most know, I love CG in anime, but I have my preferences. Yet ultimately, there are some growing pains going on and I think Macross Frontier will need to face some of those challenges. In the strictest sense, the move from 2D to 3D has yet to capture the same stylistic artistry in the japanese animation itself. Line art in two dimensions - as seen in many anime styles - played so much with perspective and proportion to achieve dramatic effect (and I'm NOT talking about the more familiar "anime magic" fans talk about). The 2D artists could bend and skew and shape the form of a drawn mecha into whatever was needed in order to simulate low camera angles, fast zooms, depth of field, near passes and all kinds of highly dramatic and stylized effects. The result became very dramatic and very exciting to watch on an aesthetic level. With 3D models, the japanese have yet to apply principles of aesthetic composition with the same skill they did in 2D. Some CG scenes and techniques seem to work better than others. But even using my personal favorite cell shaded 3D animation technique ala Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex or Yukikaze, the dramatic warping and aesthetic accomplishments are not equal to the older 2D productions. This is not to say 3D is inferior (as I know a lot of anti-CG fans are probably reading this and just waiting to jump on the bashing bandwagon), it just means it's different and will need to be used differently in order to achieve different aesthetic effects. The CG work of live action film director David Fincher comes to mind as an example of a creative talent who has a 3D aesthetic sense. I'd also say that Mamoru Oshii is one of the few anime creators that has a sense of 3D style and aesthetics, especially as seen in his Ghost in the Shell films. I'm hopeful Macross Frontier will deliver some new art via CG in this way. I like what I see so far, but I'm hoping for better especially when it comes to scene composition.

Vic Mancini Thanks for the transformation pictures! It's as I thought, the cockpit is YF-19 style, vertical in Battroid mode with the canopy side facing the rear. The main difference in the VF-25 is the nose folds 180 degrees as I suspected, not just 90 degrees like the YF-19. I can also see what appears to be a small heat shield sliding forward from the traditional underside of the forward dorsal fuselage. It looks like it covers the exposed joint of the nose tip folding over. I've done a Kelsain-like picture to point to it: azrael I think it's a safe bet it's a just differences due to a CG conversion of the VF-17. Plus some styling differences like the cockpit and those wings (the rear wing edge looks different). Also, there are nose guns on this VF-17, they are just pushed back further, behind either side of the canopy rather than right beside.

Ditto and ditto. It just looked too much like a VF-17 to be a different craft. I think some of the changes are likely stylistic while some are necessitated by 3D model. I love the idea for the aliens so far. They look very creepy and quite nasty. Thank you for the pictures Luke!

I'm sticking with my advanced-variant/changes-due-to-3D-model VF-17 theory. It simply looks too close to what a CG VF-17 would look like to be anything else

Awesome work va. I remember Hikaru using them in the battle against the Quel-Quallie. I don't know if there is much of a problem with pulse versus continuous fire. The lasers could easily have separate firing modes and it's not like that assumption is unreasonable given the technology of Macross.

Those definitely are not VF-17 fighters as they appear in the original design. Too many differences. However, it may be the intention to present them as VF-17 fighters, but the conversion from line art to the practical limitations of a full 3D model are what may account for the differences. Or, they could be modernized variants of the old Nightmare. Either way, damn sick! Zinlovely The whole nose folds over/inward like a big letter "C." I can see the way it works now. I like it a lot. It certainly appears the protrusions on the forward leading wing edge are guns. But it's kinda hard to tell.

To say your efforts are appreciated is an understatement Damn Macross Official Kelsain Very nice work. With your color coded guide and the screen shots from the trailer, I think I've got a really good handle of the transformation now. I like it! THanks again.

I'm not sure if I'm reading your post wrong, but just to note the YF-19 cockpit rests vertically in Battroid mode (glass side facing backward). However, I think I follow the rest. It does appear that perhaps the "L" fold occurs in the VF-25 nose during transformation just like it does in the YF-19 nose BUT the VF-25 nose doesn't stop at a 90 degree angle. Instead, perhaps the nose folds all the way over and rests parallel to a vertical sitting cockpit on the VF-25? A possibility. The lower torso is still confusing me. I'm not sure I understand how it works. It looks SV-51-ish, but it can't be if that is indeed the forward nose in the upper torso. So what then is the bottom midsection? What about those main wings? I said earlier that they appeared to be mounted perpendicular to the back in the first photo by kresphy and now with Graham's scans it's much clearer. That's REALLY different than any other Valkyrie and I really like that idea. I'm not sure what the logo is either, but I think your guess that it's wing art is onto something. Perhaps a fleet symbol or flight school crest? Oh, so many questions!

Thank you Graham! The VF-25 is even more distinct than first glance. These are some really interesting design elements being explored in this new mecha. The feet, head unit, shoulders and legs are all different than anything I've seen and the torso in Battroid mode really has me guessing. At first it appeared to be a straight SV-51 copy with a VF-5000 top. However, it's clear this is something altogether different. Is that the nose tip in the upper center torso pointing down? I'm really liking the detailing on the legs and the way the feet appear to extend from the lower leg/nacelle housing. I like the implementation of larger arms again. They are much more proportionally suitable to the rest of the mecha. This Valkyrie appears to be quite large. Just looking at both the fighter mode and battroid mode, I get the sense that this could be one of the biggest of the main line Valkyries. Wow, I really like this design.

That's mostly where my understanding stems from. I never got into Gundam during it's original run, it was only many years later. I find the original Gundam design way too blocky. It wasn't until Gundam 0080 came along that I fell in love with the mobile suit and the Alex became my all-time favorite Gundam even to this day. So I can certainly understand fans who came in later to Macross not having much love for the old VF-1.

I'm looking at all the VFs, not just the fighters actively serving in the main fighter role. You've got five main line fighters (VF-1, VF-4, VF-5000, VF-11 and VF-19) developed in 33 years between 2012 and 2045, plus 16 variable fighters all developed during the same time. So in the next 25 years between 2045 and 2070, the number of developed fighters in the UNG military goes from 16 down to 2 (VF-23 and VF-24)? Over two-thirds the same time has passed yet one-eighth the number of fighters have been developed. That's one helluva change in the pace of VF development

Vic Mancini Wow, that's certainly a lot of distaste for the VF-1 I have to say I've personally never seen the VF-1 as a brick. I can understand it's age, but the VF-1 has aged very well, IMO. Of course, I still love the F-15 and many 60s-70s fighter aircraft. Hell, I even have some love for the old P-47 and I'm not even an aviation buff I will say this though (to which I'm sure you can relate): I've never understood the inability of some to truly appreciate the Valkyries that came after the VF-1. I know they are not iconic and can't be because they were not first. But I adore the VF-11, YF-19 and YF-21. They are fantastic and are second to none, IMO. And I have to say, the VF-25 is really shaping up to be one of my all time favorites. I just hope the context in which it's used lives up to it's visual appeal.

Quite right, Zinjobbar. SDF Macross Episode 2 "Countdown" shows Roy Focker firing all four VF-1S laser cannons to destroy a Reguld at time index 17:10.

emajnthis I was specifically using a Macross example to make the point. Yes, there are still older fighters in service in the real world, but a single country on Earth is hardly representative of the pace of development for a vast empire spanning multiple star systems like the UNG. Like I said, from the 28 years between the earlier series, they were already over 20 VF designations. Seems quite odd for only three to come about in the next 25 years. Still, it's just a guess. azrael Oh, I'm willing to bet it might be yet another "25" reference as well, but that doesn't discount the theory. The VF-5000 is an interesting example for sure, though I'm not quite sure what relevance it has. Yes, the Star Mirage is out of sequence for a main line fighter, but aside from this one exception, the rest are all chronological two-digit designations that keep going up. Unless we're saying there were a dozen 5000-like variable fighter designations between the VF-22 and the VF-25, I can't see the VF-5000 point making much sense. If we reverse it and say the VF-25 is a VF-5000 like situation, that makes even less sense to me, since all the two-digit designated fighters have come after the other as the numbers increase. Sumdumgai Oh, I suppose the sweeping wings are a similarity to the VF-1, if they do indeed sweep. Regardless, I'm not sure that's much of a VF-1 reference compared to the others. But, no big deal either way.

Aha! You may be onto something with that line of thought. Also, what of the number designation itself; the VF-25? If Macross Frontier does indeed take place in the 2070s, that's a minimum of roughly 25 years since the last variable vehicles were seen in 2045-46. It seems unlikely that in 25 years only three variable fighters (VF-23, VF-24 and VF-25) have been produced. In the 28 years between 2012 and 2040, the UNG was up to seventeen variable fighter designs, with 19 and 21 on the way. Even accounting for changes in policy and the rapid growth of the early space civilization of the New Unity Government, we would expect to see far more variable fighters designed in the intervening 25 years.

Looks a little different than the color shceme I used for the M3. The manipulators and "ankles" are light instead of black. I might have to correct that.

I'm lost on that one too eugimon. The VF-1 color scheme is the only striking similarity to the original VF-1 Valkyrie that I can see in the VF-25. The nose is SV-51, with a totally new cockpit canopy. The fuselage is YF-19/VF-19, as are the rear vertical stabilizers (especially the VF-19 Excalibur-like placement off-nacelle). The ventral intakes are SV-51. The legs/engine nacelles are new with some YF-19 and Fz-109 influences. The main wings are Advanced Valkyrie/VF-0 styling. The shield is of course Macross Plus-era. The feet are fairly new, like elongated YF-19 feet but with a new design. And last but not least, the Battroid mode looks like a VF-5000 upper torso with an SV-51 mid-torso and an overall YF-19 Battroid silhouette.

As punishment, you are forbidden from visiting my website Actually, I can understand if some Macross fans dislike the VF-1. It's simply old; all of the classics of modern science fiction designs are. I love the VF-1 Valkyrie, the Gundam, the X-Wings, the Star Destroyers and even the original Enterprise, but they are all over a quarter century old and they look it. Also in the case of Macross, the original VF-1 Valkyrie has been used and abused in popular culture and merchandising to such a degree, it's easy for some to be sick of the design by now. Personally, I still adore the VF-1 Valkyrie despite rare bouts of over-exposure (like the opening of my website, hehehe) and will likely love it to the end of my days. But it doesn't appeal to younger anime fans and I can't blame older fans for wanting to just move on.

No worries, Major Focker. We all know Robotech sucks, so we can use the word with impunity Seriously, the RPG stats are something I've worked very hard to avoid. Most of them are incorrect. Some truth may be found in bits and pieces of the game statistics, but as a rule it's best to ignore them entirely if one wants to get it right more often than not. Im unsure why the Yamato product does 40, but there is always the possibility they know better. I doubt the episode numer "24" is signifcant in any way. It's likely just coincidence.