Bad_Syntax Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I just purchased the 2 VF-1 variable fighter books (plus the 0/25 ones) in the hopes that I could get them translated. I know of nobody that has done it so far, hopefully I'm wrong and one of you can point me to some text file to overlay or something. BUT, if there is no full translation of these products, like I'm suspecting there isn't, I have an employee at work who's wife is full Japanese and surely could do the translations. However, it is some work, so I'm sure some money would have to be involved. I don't think she has a job and her husband doesn't make a lot, so this could help them out AND us fans who don't quite love the game enough to learn japanese. Question is, if I took donations for this would folks be interested in contributing? I'm not 100% sure that is legal (I'll create text only translations, so you'll have to have the original pictures/drawings) so please tell me if it isn't. I also found this book, which seemed great, but I couldn't find it for sale: http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/mat_vf1f.jpg Anybody know where I could get a copy for a reasonable price? These just look like really great books, with great detail, but I can't just copy the text into google translate like I could with Polish or Russian (I don't have that key on my keyboard!) Thanks, Bad_Syntax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tochiro Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Just FYI, the picture you posted is the cover of an old doujin from the 1980s. Many of the same people worked on the Master File books and built on the work they originally did so getting the original doujin translated would probably be somewhat redundant. From my reading of the Master Files, unless your friends wife is very savvy regarding engineering and avionics terminology and Macross lore, she is going to have a Herculean task translating something like the Master Files. In the world of professional translations, that sort of work would not come cheap. Not trying to be demotivational here, just talking from experience. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad_Syntax Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 So was that angels book thing just a predecessor to the later VF books and thus completely pointless to bother translating if I do the latter ones? I know *nothing* about japanese, but does each symbol have a context or something? I mean, even just typing the characters into word or something would at least allow *some* translation using google translate, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Didn't look too far for a translation, eh? Partial translations of some of the books: http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/OTvfmf/OTvfmf.php Some timeline related bits and pieces from the books in... a timeline (VFMF content is the stuff in blue): http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/Sourcebook/Timeline.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tochiro Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 In a nutshell, yes. With the exception of some of the older diagrams and 'photos', I believe the bulk of the information from the VF-1 Angels doujinshi are covered/expanded upon/updated in the Master Files.I can't say that I've ever used Google Translate since Ive never seen a translation come out of it that doesn't sound like gibberish without considerable rewriting, sorry. Maybe someone else here who has used it can give you more information on its viability as a tool. As for Japanese, some characters have pictographic meaning and some do not. The language uses a minimum of three alphabets in regular written use. Then theres the technical terms, terms made up for anime/fiction/Macross, and the reversed grammar and you have a starting point.Its not undoable. It's just not easy. I know one forum member here in particular (hi Gubaba!) who has translated entire Macross novels, has gone on record saying he wouldn't even want to attempt tackling something as involved as the Master Files. .... ans THEN theres sketchley :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I can't say that I've ever used Google Translate since Ive never seen a translation come out of it that doesn't sound like gibberish without considerable rewriting, sorry. Maybe someone else here who has used it can give you more information on its viability as a tool. I don't use Google translate, and have found it inaccurate at best. I've found http://honyaku.nifty.com/ to be the most accurate when it comes to Japanese to English translation. But even then, the sentences have to be broken down into their component parts, AND you still have to carefully comb over the words to check that the most contextually valid translation is being spit out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I don't use Google translate, and have found it inaccurate at best. I've found http://honyaku.nifty.com/ to be the most accurate when it comes to Japanese to English translation. But even then, the sentences have to be broken down into their component parts, AND you still have to carefully comb over the words to check that the most contextually valid translation is being spit out... Is that what you've been using to help with your translations? With that knowledge I might be able to supplement some of your Master File work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I know *nothing* about japanese, but does each symbol have a context or something? I mean, even just typing the characters into word or something would at least allow *some* translation using google translate, no? As Tochiro mentioned, Japanese is written with 3 different alphabets or I would say, character sets. There is the basic one, Hiragana, one for foreign/borrowed words, Katakana, and Chinese script, Kanji. All 3 are mixed into the writings. And as Tochiro mentioned, there's a lot of technical jargon in the writings, including fictional words. And that's just the words. Just wait till we get the grammar, context, etc. It's not impossible, but for most normal speakers and translators, it's probably something that would require lots of time and brain-power to do. The guys (sketchley, Gubaba, Tochiro, just to name a few names) here have only covered a small portion of the available texts being published. Even I've tried reviewing the legal documents of the Macross-franchise and deciphering the words, the legal terminology, etc., is not easy. And those documents are not works of fiction, but real legal documents (Having spent a few years working with lawyers teaches you a few things). So you are welcomed to try but don't be surprised if the translator come back and say no thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) I looked into translating my Macross books years ago when I first started building the M3 website and it can be done, but it's prohibitively expensive because of the nature of the translation (azrael accurately described the major obtacles). I also found motivation was a problem, as most folks consider translating fictional material for an animated kids show as something beneath the considerable skill set it takes to perform that kind of work. If you are serious about getting someone to do the translations, I can pass on some advice that I was told by translators: provide a translation bible to your translator that contains all the created words, common technical units, technical jargon, and as much simplified context as possible in English and Japanese. That way, the translator (who will most certainly lack any knowledge of Macross) has at least some base from which to start and will help ease any initial frustration. IMO, the best way to get quality work done for this would be to pitch an English translation to the actual Macross owners, Big West. If you have some kind of business proposal, there's at least the possibility you could obtain funding for the project rather than trying to foot the bill yourself or finanice it through a few donations. But again, the problem there is motivation; there is little corporate interest from Big West to sell Macross outside of Japan (temporarily ignoring the legal side of the equation, of course). Edited February 12, 2015 by Mr March Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Is that what you've been using to help with your translations? With that knowledge I might be able to supplement some of your Master File work. It's just one of the tools. The other main ones are http://users.wfu.edu/yipcw/atg/ime/boxed-input.html and https://addons.mozilla.org/ja/firefox/addon/perapera-kun-japanese-popup-tr/ (not to mention kanji dictionaries - actual books! There's some stuff still not on the Internet after all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HannouHeiki Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I've punched things into romajidesu.com, google translate, and bing translate. They will do an "okay" job, sometimes, giving you a general idea of what is being talked about. But overall, it will look like gibberish like everyone here has said. You can't avoid having to break sentences down into component parts and looking at individual kana (phonetic characters) and kanji (pictoral). If you don't use Japanese as part of your regular routine, it will take a lot of effort to make effect interpretations. Even those machine translations I just mentioned take significant amounts of interpretation. I listened to a beginner's Japanese CD series years ago and it helps me navigate a little, but I'm not even close to being functional. It helps, but just barely. The tough thing with books is that you can't cut and paste your pages into the machine translators. If you could ever OCR the text, I'd love to see what machine translation would come up with, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad_Syntax Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 I appreciate the input, and Sketchley your work is invaluable! Since the books aren't apparently canon though, should I even bother translating them? I'm sure I'll have my coworker take one home and see what his wife can do (he can read *some* as well, as is ex-military, so may be able to help a lot). Hopefully they find it easy, but if not I'll have to stick with Sketchley's work. Still though, not like I was ripped off, those books look wonderful. Wish they made them for the destroids too though, which in many ways to me are cooler designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I've punched things into romajidesu.com, google translate, and bing translate. They will do an "okay" job, sometimes, giving you a general idea of what is being talked about. But overall, it will look like gibberish like everyone here has said. You can't avoid having to break sentences down into component parts and looking at individual kana (phonetic characters) and kanji (pictoral). If you don't use Japanese as part of your regular routine, it will take a lot of effort to make effect interpretations. Even those machine translations I just mentioned take significant amounts of interpretation. I listened to a beginner's Japanese CD series years ago and it helps me navigate a little, but I'm not even close to being functional. It helps, but just barely. The tough thing with books is that you can't cut and paste your pages into the machine translators. If you could ever OCR the text, I'd love to see what machine translation would come up with, though. I've OCR'd several pages of text before... it's been hit or miss if any of it makes any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Since the books aren't apparently canon though, should I even bother translating them? That's up to you. If you could ever OCR the text, I'd love to see what machine translation would come up with, though. OCR'ing is only as good as the program being used. And it has to be able to recognize different font families. Just looking at the diagrams vs text, the text uses a different font family than the text for the diagrams. As Monmar mentioned, it's hit or miss if the OCR program is able to recognize the characters properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sketchley Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Since the books aren't apparently canon though, should I even bother translating them? That's the question I've been wrestling with. Some parts are invaluable (Eg: alternate variants) and some things are just... munchkin (Eg: the missile loads in the FAST Packs). Ultimately, I've resolved to do the descriptions of the variants when I get a round toit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I just find some of the concepts and scenarios they've come up with fascinating. Given that I've never terribly been concerned with "canon" as it pertains to Macross I find any stories told in the universe interesting for their own spins/takes/etc... Kawamori did set up the universe essentially as one potential fan write/re-write anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 It's a tough call whether to spend the time and effort to translate the Variable Fighter Master Files given their status as "not official setting material". As we've gone through them and translated more bits and pieces, it appears much of the information within the pages is "fluff" trivia. The information provided is written vaguely to avoid specifics in an attempt to present the appearance of meaningful material. Perhaps the reason for this style of writing is intentional on behalf of the writers, not to be too precise for fear of writing technical data that may contradict something from the animated films and TV shows. Unfortunately, that writing style makes the material shallow. I've found much of the text "sounds" more meaningful or accurate than it actually is. That being said, there is some rather insightful and interesting technical information in the Master File books that offer more than fluff trivia. Like the best of the official Macross trivia, the Master File books do include some real technical statistics described in real scientific units of measurement. If you love the Macross mecha statistics and world building like I do, some of the Master File trivia is really fun to read. Some of the highlights are: Muzzle velocities provided for a few of the gun pods (ex. 2,000 m/s for the GU-11 Gun Pod) Descriptions of the numerous gun pod munitions [ex. High-Explosive Anti-Conversion Armor (HEACA)] Power ratings for some of the directed energy weapons (ex. YF-19 head cannon rated at 9.5 megawatts) Ranges for some of the weapons (ex. effective range of the YF-19 wing root laser guns is 50 kilometers) Thrust ratings for the VF-1 "backpack" rockets (ex. roughly 8,500 kgf) A lot of the interesting "nuts and bolts" technical trivia is fun because the writers provide real figures for trivia that has never been written in any official source. Thus despite the unofficial status of the Master Files, they provide SOME detail about the Macross mecha that isn't contradictory and can help fill in long standing gaps in the official tech statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I've actually found the Mobile Suit Master Archives a better "read" at mechs of a franchise than the VF Master Files. Mostly due to the fact that there's more published data on MSs than VFs. One little thing I do love about the MS Master Archives is how they've incorporated the various Gunpla versions into the writings as "early" or "late" dated revisions and they didn't have to invent a new variant for the publication like the VF Master Files did. For examples, the Ver.Ka RX-78-2 became a later revision/repair to the original RX-78-2. We know the RX-78-2 was upgraded on the field using data from the RX-78-3 so why shouldn't it look like the Ver.Ka RX-78-2 Gunpla (It probably helps that the RX-78-3 was designed by Katoki). Or take the various Gunpla of Zeta Gundam. The MS Master Archive incorporates those as repairs and field upgrades that Zeta received during the Gryps Conflict. Which actually works. In anime, we won't see those minor repairs but we can see them in the Gunpla and the MS Master Archives do take advantage of it. If Macross had that, it would make the VF Master Files much more interesting. But not to knock on the VF Master Files, I found the VFMF's diagrams to be a great way to explain how things work like how EX-Gear as a cockpit seat works as at higher Gs, or how the pilot is oriented in a VF-25 in battroid mode or how the cockpit is arranged in a VF-0 and its variants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 It's a tough call whether to spend the time and effort to translate the Variable Fighter Master Files given their status as "not official setting material". As we've gone through them and translated more bits and pieces, it appears much of the information within the pages is "fluff" trivia. The information provided is written vaguely to avoid specifics in an attempt to present the appearance of meaningful material. Perhaps the reason for this style of writing is intentional on behalf of the writers, not to be too precise for fear of writing technical data that may contradict something from the animated films and TV shows. Unfortunately, that writing style makes the material shallow. I've found much of the text "sounds" more meaningful or accurate than it actually is. That being said, there is some rather insightful and interesting technical information in the Master File books that offer more than fluff trivia. Like the best of the official Macross trivia, the Master File books do include some real technical statistics described in real scientific units of measurement. If you love the Macross mecha statistics and world building like I do, some of the Master File trivia is really fun to read. Some of the highlights are: Muzzle velocities provided for a few of the gun pods (ex. 2,000 m/s for the GU-11 Gun Pod) Descriptions of the numerous gun pod munitions [ex. High-Explosive Anti-Conversion Armor (HEACA)] Power ratings for some of the directed energy weapons (ex. YF-19 head cannon rated at 9.5 megawatts) Ranges for some of the weapons (ex. effective range of the YF-19 wing root laser guns is 50 kilometers) Thrust ratings for the VF-1 "backpack" rockets (ex. roughly 8,500 kgf) A lot of the interesting "nuts and bolts" technical trivia is fun because the writers provide real figures for trivia that has never been written in any official source. Thus despite the unofficial status of the Master Files, they provide SOME detail about the Macross mecha that isn't contradictory and can help fill in long standing gaps in the official tech statistics. What kinds of vague stuff are you referring to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr March Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) What kinds of vague stuff are you referring to? I'm refering to the lack of any specifics. From the few translations I've been lucky to read so far, the Master File books spend many pages naming, describing and designating the technology of the variable fighters, yet very little is provided in the way of actual measurement or real meaningful figures. Generally, the reader is not provided any units. For me, one of the joys of Macross has always been the description and detail of the fictional mecha using real scientific units. It's one of the foundations of the "real robot" genre. The VF-1 Valkyrie is 14.23 meters long, a real measurement that I can visualize or compare to the real size of my own car. The VF-1 Valkyrie weighs 13.25 metric tons, a real figure I can imagine and compare to other real vehicles. The GU-11 gun pod has a massive 55mm caliber that reveals it is highly unusual and perhaps over-powered for a jet fighter weapon. The VF-1 engines each produce an unreal 650 megawatts of power, more than entire modern cities. The point being that for the layman, this kind of trivia is all understandable, comparable and relatable. Such real world trivia helps suspend my disbelief and inspires my imagination. For example, the missile is one of the defining visual elements of the Macross series, yet the lack of trivia remains a glaring ommission. Even just simple statistics would suffice. How much does a AMM-1 missile weigh? How fast can it fly? What are the physical dimensions? What is the explosive yield (even if it's just hyperbole like "twice as deadly as a conventional missile", that would do)? Given the cost of the Master File books and the large amount of text written for each volume, I was expecting more "nuts and bolts" information. This series was a great opportunity to expand upon the Macross mecha trivia in much greater detail. More important than that, the Master Files were an opportunity to fill in gaps. For example, the VF-1 Valkyrie is the only VF that has any power rating for it's engines. Why not finally provide power ratings for the other valkyries? Very few of the VFs have any weight statistic other than empty; why not detail the weight of the VF-11 Thunderbolt's FAST Pack system, or detail the Standard Take-Off Weight for the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur or detail the Maximum Take-Off weight for the VF-4 Lightning III? Some of the missing trivia is so simple, it's silly that there's still a lack of figures. Such as: A "GU" designation for that anonymous 30mm gun pod for the VF-11 Thunderbolt An official thrust figure for the VF-1S enhanced engines A definitive height for the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II Battroid A caliber size for the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur gun pod and the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II gun pods An official micro-missile count for the VF-1 Super Valkyrie FAST Packs An official micro-missile count for the VF-11 Thunderbolt APS-11 Protect Armor Pack The Master File books should provide calibers, ammo counts, weights, ranges, physical dimensions, explosive yields, etc. Basically, give more comprehensive trivia for each variable fighter that matches or exceeds the most detailed variable fighter (arguably, the VF-1 Valkyrie). An entire book is being written on a single variable fighter, how are these facts not covered in such a comprehensive volume? These books were a perfect opportunity to establish this trivia. Honestly, I get far more out of the "nuts and bolts" trivia than the fluff trivia. It's about detail that is measurable or has "weight" in the figurative sense. I mean, six pages describing the YF-19/VF-19's radar system is all fine and wonderful, but it doesn't "mean" anything because the information can't be easily quantified, compared, or measured. Trivia for the layman is what makes the trivia fun for fans. We can ENGAGE in the trivia. Compare it. Contrast it. Make charts. Calculate competing T-W ratios. Compare gun calibers. Compare speeds. Compare sizes and weights. These are numbers we all understand presented in real measurements that provide context. In other words, real robots Edited February 18, 2015 by Mr March Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Didn't look too far for a translation, eh? Partial translations of some of the books: http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/OTvfmf/OTvfmf.php Some timeline related bits and pieces from the books in... a timeline (VFMF content is the stuff in blue): http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/Sourcebook/Timeline.php A little off topic, I am reading your "Timeline" and have a question about the "black" text. Green is Official, Blue is Extended Universe, what is the black text from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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