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5 hours ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

Huh? I thought the 29 was still the best of the best 

Overall, the YF-29 knocks the Sv-262 into a cocked hat like it's nothing.  Seriously, we're talking 50% more performance and four times the armor.

The only fighters that supposedly rival the YF-29 are the NUNS YF-29B, the YF-30, and the federal forces VF-24 that the YF-29 was an attempt to surpass.

The Sv-262's inertia store converter does have higher output than the one on the hastily assembled YF-29 fielded by the Macross Frontier fleet, but by a near-trivial amount (eight tenths of one G) that is less than the improvement between the VF-25's and the VF-31's.  Windermere may have been able to obtain better performance on their ISCs due to being flush with high quality fold quartz from their Protoculture ruins.  The scarcity and expense of that essential material is probably doing a fair bit to hold back the capabilities of ISC technology.  (Windermere's main beef with the New UN Government was that there were such strict restrictions on the mining and export of the stuff for extremely good reasons, which would otherwise have made them astonishingly wealthy and influential.) 

 

4 hours ago, Sildani said:

I coulda sworn we had said in the Valkyrie Fun Facts thread that the 262 didn’t have as good an ISC as the 25, due to greater Windermerean resilience. I may have been off my meds though. 

You may be thinking of when I compared the Draken III's fold reheat system to the more capable but still stripped-down fold wave system on the VF-31 Siegfried... 

 

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Seto points out well that the 262 is way too overspecialized for aerial use. The YF-29 can work in all mediums to a crazily high powered degree even if it's ISC can't budget quite as much G's, lol. Good pilot will deal with it.

It wouldn't be a stretch to call the Sv-262 badly-designed as a main variable fighter, given that its elaborate transformation caused it to have less room for internal fuel tanks and thus gave it sub-par endurance in space operations where the majority of variable fighter combat occurs.  It may also have resulted in the fighter being entirely dependent on conformal packs for missiles.  There's also the slight matter of its close combat blade being a glorified toothpick without an external power supply since it's entirely dependent on energy conversion armor for its structural strength and is otherwise too brittle to use.

The YF-29 can also exert its full performance without damaging itself... which dialog in Macross Delta suggests is not the case for the Sv-262.

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On 8/14/2018 at 11:45 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

IIRC it's just the Combo Pack versions of the movies.

FWIW it's definitely not this particular combo pack (Wings of Goodbye (2011) on BD, PS3 game, script books for both movies, lots of pictures), which I own and viewed this weekend. It has alternate audio mixes, extras of the trailers and promotional junket, but no subtitles in any language. (I happened to find this in a Book Off location in Shinjuku in 2017 at a very reasonable price, along with the VF-1 Master File and both both volumes of Macross the Ride. That was a lucky day.)

 

mf_wog_bd_combo_5435_600w.jpg

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11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 

The only fighters that supposedly rival the YF-29 are the NUNS YF-29B, the YF-30, and the federal forces VF-24 that the YF-29 was an attempt to surpass

So the VF-27 (with cyborg pilot) isn't in there? Interesting. 

I don't think I've seen the YF-29B variant..

i also assumed that the YF-30 was the direct parent of the VF-31. And therefore also assumed it was up to par(or close)  with the YF-29..

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5 hours ago, Bolt said:

So the VF-27 (with cyborg pilot) isn't in there? Interesting. 

I don't think I've seen the YF-29B variant..

i also assumed that the YF-30 was the direct parent of the VF-31. And therefore also assumed it was up to par(or close)  with the YF-29..

The YF-29B is the blue NUNS variant used by the antagonist in the Macross 30 game. 

The YF-30 is a match in many ways to the 29, after all it is the hero mech in Macross 30 that fights the 29B. What is important is that the VF-31 is derived from the YF-30 but the 31 is in no way in the same level as the 30 and 29.

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36 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

The YF-29B is the blue NUNS variant used by the antagonist in the Macross 30 game

Ah so.. That's theRod version , I believe. Lovely machine. 

Mans so the VF-27 doesn't come close to the YF-29?

also , what about the Spectacular

VF-19EF/A "Isamu special"?

It (he) seemed to be ripping it up in the final frontier battle and it also apparently outmaneuver the VF-25 Messiah. Pitted against the YF-29? 

Bear in mind not all pilots are equal ..

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1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Ah so.. That's theRod version , I believe. Lovely machine. 

Mans so the VF-27 doesn't come close to the YF-29?

also , what about the Spectacular

VF-19EF/A "Isamu special"?

It (he) seemed to be ripping it up in the final frontier battle and it also apparently outmaneuver the VF-25 Messiah. Pitted against the YF-29? 

Bear in mind not all pilots are equal ..

Alto beat Berea in the super 29 vs super 27 battle in the second Frontier movie. 

From what I understood about the story of the Macross 30 game- Leon got lucky in the 30 vs Rod in the 29B.

Edited by blackconvoy_D01
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1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Ah so.. That's theRod version , I believe. Lovely machine. 

Mans so the VF-27 doesn't come close to the YF-29?

also , what about the Spectacular

VF-19EF/A "Isamu special"?

It (he) seemed to be ripping it up in the final frontier battle and it also apparently outmaneuver the VF-25 Messiah. Pitted against the YF-29? 

Bear in mind not all pilots are equal ..

Pilot will makes up for a lot, especially for the VF-19EF/A that is almost intentionally designed to be as tough to use as the original YF-19 that nearly killed pilots that aren't Isamu. It's improved I think but it's Gen 4.5 at best compared to top notch Gen 5. Isamu maybe can make it work by luck but he's outmatched in tech. This may be why he gets his own YF-29 variant in the game, dude needs to keep up lol. 

As for the VF-27, it's specialized for cyborg use so they could even better deal with Vajra. It supposedly used some stolen data from the YF-29 but none of what makes the 29 so BAMF. The 29 is literally a beast of a machine. It's got thicker armor, more weapons, and most notably the fold wave system which essentially allows it to run ECA in all modes with no performance drop when active. 

There is a reason Brera was having trouble in that final dogfight while Alto was basically avoiding hurting him. Alto could have killed him probably if he wanted to do so. 

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10 hours ago, Bolt said:

So the VF-27 (with cyborg pilot) isn't in there? Interesting. 

The VF-27 needed a Super Pack - which was really more of a Ghost Booster - to even keep up with the YF-29.

(Which is amusing in a way, since Macross Galaxy's final VF-27 design was completed using development data from the YF-29 program that Macross Galaxy illicitly obtained through back channels at LAI.)

 

10 hours ago, Bolt said:

I don't think I've seen the YF-29B variant..

That's Rod Baltemar's YF-29 from Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy.

The NUNS special forces squadron Havamal gave YF-29B Percivals to their ace pilots according to Macross Chronicle.

 

10 hours ago, Bolt said:

i also assumed that the YF-30 was the direct parent of the VF-31. And therefore also assumed it was up to par(or close)  with the YF-29..

The VF-31 was developed from the YF-30, though the directness of that relationship is unclear.

There was almost certainly a YF-31 between the YF-30 and VF-31 in the development process, though some sources like Master File may put additional intermediate developmental models in there like a YF-30B NUNS-spec Chronos.

A lot of people came to that same conclusion before specs for the VF-31 were made available.  The YF-30, like the YF-29, was basically a super-prototype too awesomely expensive and resource-intensive for mass production in the form we see it.  The relationship between the VF-31 and YF-30 is a bit like the relationship between the GM and Gundam... it's an economized derivative model that scales back the high performance and removes a bunch of expensive and complex systems to make the unit cheap enough for mass production.  Performance-wise, the VF-31A Kairos is on par with the VF-25.  To give you an idea of how severe the cutbacks were, the Siegfried customs used by Delta Flight use detuned YF-30 parts in their upgrades that put them a little bit below the "naked" VF-27 in terms of performance.

(The VF-31's backstory is a case of "real life writes the plot", with its development essentially paralleling Japan's attempt to develop a domestic 5th Generation fighter jet.)

 

 

 

10 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

Does any detailed or close up shots of Walkure's shuttle exist?

Not that I recall?

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

Mans so the VF-27 doesn't come close to the YF-29?

The VF-27 is very agile, but the YF-29 is working with 32% more output without its fold wave system boosting things... and has more armor and weaponry.

 

4 hours ago, Bolt said:

VF-19EF/A "Isamu special"?

It (he) seemed to be ripping it up in the final frontier battle and it also apparently outmaneuver the VF-25 Messiah. Pitted against the YF-29? 

"Mulched" would sum it up nicely.

The VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special" is a custom tuned VF-19 monkey model.  The key areas of its customization are actually deliberate downgrades of the fighter's aerodynamics and its avionics, to restore the unstable performance of the YF-19 that Isamu was so fond of.  It has uprated engines and a few other improvements, but it's still mostly a VF-19EF Caliburn export model and has little chance of winning a dogfight against any 5th Generation VF since it lacks an inertia store converter.

 

 

3 hours ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

From what I understood about the story of the Macross 30 game- Leon got lucky in the 30 vs Rod in the 29B.

Reon Sakaki had the advantage of MDE weapons on his YF-30 and the Fold Dimensional Resonance system that outclassed the YF-29's fold wave system.

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Reading from Sketchley's translations 

(an invaluable resource !)

came acemrosd this in the description of the YF-30 Chronos development..

"At the time of this aircraft's development, in addition to existing technology, it's said that parts collected from the Protoculture ruins on the planet(Ouroboros?), and the protective weapons that guard the ruins, were also inserted into the YF-30."

do we know which "parts" and

"protective" weapons being spoken of?

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6 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

To give you an idea of how severe the cutbacks were, the Siegfried customs used by Delta Flight use detuned YF-30 parts in their upgrades that put them a little bit below the "naked" VF-27 in terms of performance.

 

This leaves me with the impression that the VF-31 is not phenomenally better in performance than the VF-25 and only out classes it in armaments and control systems. Better fold capabilities too. 

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15 minutes ago, Bolt said:

"At the time of this aircraft's development, in addition to existing technology, it's said that parts collected from the Protoculture ruins on the planet(Ouroboros?), and the protective weapons that guard the ruins, were also inserted into the YF-30."

do we know which "parts" and

"protective" weapons being spoken of?

We don't know which parts specifically, no... 

The aforementioned "protective weapons that guard the ruins" are the Dyaus, a technorganic species the ancient Protoculture created to keep people out of their abandoned facilities on Uroboros.  The smaller Dyaus forms are vaguely insectoid, roughly the size of a large truck, flight capable, and armed with beam weaponry.  There are two known larger forms, one which is a larger version of the small form that is several times the size of a battroid, and a "Mother Dyaus" which looks more like a giant flying fish that is the size of a frigate.  Settlers on Uroboros refer to them as "Guardians" for obvious reasons.  There are also regional variations in coloration between regions in Uroboros, which fill the role of your standard palate swap RPG baddies.

The small Dyaus forms are autospawned enemies on the three worldmaps in Macross 30, which usually appear around their nesting sites (which can be destroyed for item drops), the large form is a miniboss, and the mother form is a straight-up boss.

 

6 minutes ago, Bolt said:

This leaves me with the impression that the VF-31 is not phenomenally better in performance than the VF-25 and only out classes it in armaments and control systems. Better fold capabilities too. 

Really, it'd be hard to argue that the VF-31 represents a significant improvement over the VF-25 in any respect...

The VF-31A Kairos shares so much hardware with the VF-25 that calling it a VF-25 in a different-shaped container is barely an exaggeration.  I'd question whether the VF-31's weapons are actually better than the VF-25's, since it has half as many pylons, but includes internal micro-missile launchers and an internal weapons bay.  Whether the forearm railguns and the beam gunpod actually represent an improvement in firepower vs. the VF-25's modular gunmounts and conventional gunpod is hard to say since the VF-25 could improve firepower by swapping ammo types.  I think the VF-25 is arguably a more flexible aircraft in terms of armament, where the VF-31 is more flexible in terms of modification for special mission roles like reconnaissance due to its ordnance container.  There's no evidence of better fold capability on the stock VF-31.

Mind you, this comparison is drawn between the VF-25A-1 Messiah (2059) and VF-31A-1 Kairos (2067)... the VF-25 would probably have had several minor upgrades between then and "now".

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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Really, it'd be hard to argue that the VF-31 represents a significant improvement over the VF-25 in any respect...

The VF-31A Kairos shares so much hardware with the VF-25 that calling it a VF-25 in a different-shaped container is barely an exaggeration.  I'd question whether the VF-31's weapons are actually better than the VF-25's, since it has half as many pylons, but includes internal micro-missile launchers and an internal weapons bay.  Whether the forearm railguns and the beam gunpod actually represent an improvement in firepower vs. the VF-25's modular gunmounts and conventional gunpod is hard to say since the VF-25 could improve firepower by swapping ammo types.  I think the VF-25 is arguably a more flexible aircraft in terms of armament, where the VF-31 is more flexible in terms of modification for special mission roles like reconnaissance due to its ordnance container.  There's no evidence of better fold capability on the stock VF-31.

I believe Kawamori himself said that the VF-31 represented an "evolutionary" design when compared the Sv-262 to him, production-wise. And certainly the in-universe specs reflect that sentiment. There's nothing "wow" about it when you think about it. Last year's model supported this feature but this year's model now bakes it in. If a VF-25 was like a Intel Kaby Lake CPU, then a VF-31 is a Coffee Lake CPU.  Everything we see on a VF-31, we've seen it introduced on last year's models. The mini-gunpods on the VF-31's forearms are what comes next from years of the hip-mounted guns. Hip-mounted guns made great anti-infantry munitions but lackluster anti-armor weapons where they would see more use. Making them electromagnetic adds the necessary punch while maintaining ammunition constraints. Standard beam gunpod? Already introduced on the VF-27, and standard on YF-29 and YF-30. Mission-variable pod is just an extension of hardpoints which became the container pod introduced on the YF-30. It's just natively supported now. ISC? Same model found on on the VF-25 but likely revision F or G. Engines between the VF-25 and VF-31 are the same except the VF-31's are Stage 2C. Output is just marginally better. If the VF-25 was an iPhone 6, the VF-31 is the iPhone 6S. Evolutionary. Next year's model. The update model.

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Ah so.. From that standpoint,  it seems the VF-25 could simply have been upgraded a la..

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Mind you, this comparison is drawn between the VF-25A-1 Messiah (2059) and VF-31A-1 Kairos (2067)... the VF-25 would probably have had several minor upgrades between then and "now".

And had a much longer service life , like the F-14 Tomcat of our yesteryears. (A great fighter is hard to retire!)

Just add on the ordinance container to the Messiah!

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19 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Ah so.. From that standpoint,  it seems the VF-25 could simply have been upgraded a la..

And had a much longer service life , like the F-14 Tomcat of our yesteryears. (A great fighter is hard to retire!)

Just add on the ordinance container to the Messiah!

The design of the VF-25 doesn't allow for that, reworking it to do so would be a radical redesign, if a fleet wanted a plane to have that, they'd buy Kairos instead. 

As Seto and Azrael implied the 31 is not a replacement for the 25, it is just what this region chose to build and eventually adopt instead due to their needs. Frontier fleet in 2067 still surely has VF-25s, likely with NUNS there having fully adopted it now since the life cycle implementation started earlier than the 31's did. Plus yes the production model version of the 25 is likely a bit improved over the SMS used performance testing models. 

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12 hours ago, azrael said:

There's nothing "wow" about it when you think about it. Last year's model supported this feature but this year's model now bakes it in. If a VF-25 was like a Intel Kaby Lake CPU, then a VF-31 is a Coffee Lake CPU.  Everything we see on a VF-31, we've seen it introduced on last year's models.

Looking back at the VF-31's specs and performance, I'd say it's not even that... it's more like the Apple strategy: "Yesterday's technology at Tomorrow's prices!".

The stated goal of the VF-31 as an internal project initiated by the Brisingr Alliance was to be an economic stimulus.  Instead of buying a foreign fighter and sending money away to their allies outside the cluster, they wanted to do it themselves and have something they could potentially sell on.  They built their fighter using parts that'd been state of the art ten years previously, technology that'd already been proven on the battlefield, to keep development and production costs down so they can rake in more money on each aircraft sold.

 

12 hours ago, azrael said:

The mini-gunpods on the VF-31's forearms are what comes next from years of the hip-mounted guns. Hip-mounted guns made great anti-infantry munitions but lackluster anti-armor weapons where they would see more use. Making them electromagnetic adds the necessary punch while maintaining ammunition constraints.

The hip-mounted guns on the VF-25 were supposed to be its light, fighter-mode default gun.  They didn't see much use because they were designed for typical enemies like rogue Zentradi rather than monstrously up-armored enemies like the Vajra.  Once the modular gunmounts exchanged the beam machine guns for solid ammo weapons firing MDE shells they were much more effective.

The VF-31's railguns don't seem to be powerful enough to be a serious threat or a main weapon, and the ones on the Siegfried customs are noted to have been derated for safe use in close proximity to civilians.

 

12 hours ago, azrael said:

Standard beam gunpod? Already introduced on the VF-27, and standard on YF-29 and YF-30. Mission-variable pod is just an extension of hardpoints which became the container pod introduced on the YF-30. It's just natively supported now.

It's less capable than the beam gunpods on its predecessors, lacking both the MDE upgrade and beam grenade mode.

 

12 hours ago, azrael said:

Engines between the VF-25 and VF-31 are the same except the VF-31's are Stage 2C. Output is just marginally better.

But that didn't translate into actual performance gains because the slight improvement in engine output was more than canceled out by the greater airframe mass.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bolt said:

Ah so.. From that standpoint,  it seems the VF-25 could simply have been upgraded a la..

And had a much longer service life , like the F-14 Tomcat of our yesteryears. (A great fighter is hard to retire!)

Just add on the ordinance container to the Messiah!

You wouldn't be able to retrofit a VF-25 to take an ordnance container... the YF-30 and VF-31 had to have airframes and transformations specially designed around having it.

That said, the VF-25 was already in widespread service before the VF-31 ever entered testing.  Odds are it'll be much more widely used than the VF-31, likely already received many if not all of the upgrades that went into the base model VF-31 as block upgrades, and will likely continue to enjoy an advantage over the VF-31 simply because the governments which bought it once the Macross Frontier fleet started exporting it are wealthier than the Brisingr Alliance and its allies and can afford to keep updating them with the latest tech.

The VF-31 is likely to see widespread use in the poorer regions of the galaxy, where the ordnance container system can be leveraged into better individual cost-performance at the expense of combat performance for its buyers who won't need to splurge on mission-specific variants to replace craft like the RVF-171.

Both the VF-25 and VF-31 are likely to remain in service with the various regional New UN Forces in the galaxy through the end of the century.

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You may find the Super Macross Mecha Discussion Thread helpful and informative... even if has, not without reason, been jokingly referred to as an AMA directed at me. :lol:

Next year, I'll be launching a site on which I'll be publishing my own translations, which should complement sketchley's translations on a number of fronts.

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On September 12, 2018 at 5:43 PM, Master Dex said:

There is a reason Brera was having trouble in that final dogfight while Alto was basically avoiding hurting him. Alto could have killed him probably if he wanted to do so. 

Just an interesting note. In the final battle of the False Songstress, Brera operating the VF-27  does have Alto (in the VF-29) dead in his sights. He's locked on but doesn't fire as Rankas song is affecting him. 

He then breaks the implant hold (with the help of Rankas song) on himself and busts into Battle Frontier whereupon he blasts the crap out of the cyber humans(??) controlling Battle Frontier and merging it with the Queen Vajra..also killing himself..

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11 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Just an interesting note. In the final battle of the False Songstress, Brera operating the VF-27  does have Alto (in the VF-29) dead in his sights. He's locked on but doesn't fire as Rankas song is affecting him. 

True, but for pretty much the entirety of their dogfight Alto is on the defensive by choice because he didn't want to have to shoot him down and kill him.

A missile lock is hardly a guarantee of a hit, much less a kill, in the real world... to say nothing of the Macross universe where fighters can outrun, outmaneuver, intercept, or hide from incoming missiles.

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Any thoughts as to why Macross Galaxy didn’t take full advantage of the YF-29 plans they had to make the Lucifer more competitive? Perhaps they couldn’t find the massive fold quartz crystals they needed. 

A thought: since Windermere is now pretty much the trash of the galaxy, and they have easy access to so much of that large-carat quartz, how likely do you think it will be that the NUNS can kinda mass-produce the Durandal now? A VF-29B would be scary!

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13 minutes ago, Sildani said:

Any thoughts as to why Macross Galaxy didn’t take full advantage of the YF-29 plans they had to make the Lucifer more competitive? Perhaps they couldn’t find the massive fold quartz crystals they needed. 

A thought: since Windermere is now pretty much the trash of the galaxy, and they have easy access to so much of that large-carat quartz, how likely do you think it will be that the NUNS can kinda mass-produce the Durandal now? A VF-29B would be scary!

I suspect they didn't have as much fold quartz plus maybe didn't get all the 29 data. 

As for the latter, pretty sure federal NUNS will put a stop to that quickly and restrict the fold quartz usage. They don't want any colony having something as tough as their fighter in numbers. You think the idea of a VF-29 is scary, there is evidence the federal VF-24 is more powerful... And that is likely without a fold wave system. 

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2 hours ago, Sildani said:

Any thoughts as to why Macross Galaxy didn’t take full advantage of the YF-29 plans they had to make the Lucifer more competitive? Perhaps they couldn’t find the massive fold quartz crystals they needed. 

The YF-29 is a bank-breakingly expensive aircraft... the Macross Frontier fleet could only muster the materials to build the one, due in no small part to the fold wave system requiring a large amount of ultra-high-purity fold quartz of a type that could only be found in the bodies of Vajra Queen and Semi-Queen forms.  Mass production was basically impossible due to the scarcity, and difficulty of obtaining, the necessary materials.

The VF-27 Lucifer is basically the love child of Galaxy's YF-27 and Frontier's YF-29, with capabilities scaled back to the point where the aircraft could be feasibly mass produced.

 

2 hours ago, Sildani said:

A thought: since Windermere is now pretty much the trash of the galaxy, and they have easy access to so much of that large-carat quartz, how likely do you think it will be that the NUNS can kinda mass-produce the Durandal now? A VF-29B would be scary!

Unlikely.  The fold quartz for the fold wave system doesn't just need to be large, it needs to be extremely pure.  It's not a common combination to find.  Even leaning on the government of Uroboros for support, Havamal was only able to produce a handful of YF-29B Percivals for its top aces... and Uroboros was literally crawling with Protoculture constructs AND Vajra.

We won't see something like that until someone figures out how to artificially refine fold carbon into fold quartz at the extremely high purities required.  Earth is allegedly working on it, though it's unknown if their work has produced any concrete success.  It would ultimately destroy the market value for mined fold quartz and put a pretty big dent in the economies of the Frontier fleet, Uroboros, and Windermere IV.

 

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

As for the latter, pretty sure federal NUNS will put a stop to that quickly and restrict the fold quartz usage. They don't want any colony having something as tough as their fighter in numbers. You think the idea of a VF-29 is scary, there is evidence the federal VF-24 is more powerful... And that is likely without a fold wave system. 

Fold quartz export restrictions will likely put the kibosh on that... especially now that Windermere's back-channel for exporting the stuff has turned on them and sold them out to the New UN Government.

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I'm mildly surprised that after the VF-19 and VF-22 became special forces models in conjunction with the general VF-171 across many regions, there has yet to be a clear case of a special forces counterpart to a main fifth generation fighter as of 2067.

I reason, in the vein of what Seto has said, if the ISC requires the rare and expensive fold quartz to begin with, no one can really go anywhere with mass-producing any super prototype fighter.

I would love to see the VF-24 in action to see if central N.U.N.S. has a need for a fifth generation special forces model, but that is most likely a fruitless question to ask given that Kawamori-sensei has shown little inclination to revisit the core sectors in future Macross works.

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Sorry, I meant to reply to this the other day, but between Super Dimension Con and meeting up with friends before and after the event it kinda slipped thru the cracks.

 

On 9/14/2018 at 12:35 PM, SMS007 said:

I'm mildly surprised that after the VF-19 and VF-22 became special forces models in conjunction with the general VF-171 across many regions, there has yet to be a clear case of a special forces counterpart to a main fifth generation fighter as of 2067.

Well, not one on an official basis... the New UN Spacy Special Forces 815th Independent Squadron VF-X "Havamal" effectively used the YF-29B Perceval as their 5th Generation special forces VF.  That was likely only possible because Havamal was operating out of Uroboros, a planet unusually rich in Protoculture ruins and fold quartz.

I'm not surprised we haven't seen a dedicated special forces model in the 5th Generation.  Part of what let the idea of a special forces VF gain traction was filling niches which weren't properly covered by existing models.  The earliest proper example, General Galaxy's VF-17 Nightmare, was developed to fill an uncovered niche in the 3rd Generation VF lineup: that of a stealth fighter-bomber for long-range attacks.  The VF-22 Sturmvogel II and, later, the VF-19 Excalibur ended up as special forces fighters in part because of how much the New UN Government and New UN Forces had sunk into the Advanced Variable Fighter program before tripping at the finish line thanks to the excessively high specs putting them out of the reach of average pilots and revised arms export laws that effectively killed widespread adoption after mass production had already begun.  Repurposing the VF-19 and VF-22 to special forces use was a way to make lemonade with those lemons, and presumably avoid both a lawsuit for canceling the contract with Shinsei Industry after mass production had begun and to avoid admitting that six years and untold billions invested in the Advanced Variable Fighter project wasn't a waste after they changed gears and adopted the VF-171 through an entirely separate program.

As far as we know - and it must be admitted that isn't that far - there hasn't been a 5th Generation Variable Fighter program that was passed over for widespread adoption but was also delivered in a condition where it could reasonably be adopted anyway.

The YF-29 Durandal was simply too expensive and too resource-intensive for even limited mass production to be feasible, and the only other one that's identified as having been a failed prototype was Macross Olympia's YF-26 (from Master File) that lost out to Macross Frontier's YF-25 in Project Triangler.

 

 

On 9/14/2018 at 12:35 PM, SMS007 said:

I reason, in the vein of what Seto has said, if the ISC requires the rare and expensive fold quartz to begin with, no one can really go anywhere with mass-producing any super prototype fighter.

At least, until some New UN Government member (read: "Earth") finishes sussing out how to synthesize fold quartz at the necessary purity and size inexpensively enough to make it viable for mass production.  Until that point they have to work with whatever they can find in Protoculture ruins, old Vajra nests, and the like... which limits them to smaller pieces at purity levels insufficient for something like a fold wave system.

 

 

On 9/14/2018 at 12:35 PM, SMS007 said:

I would love to see the VF-24 in action to see if central N.U.N.S. has a need for a fifth generation special forces model, but that is most likely a fruitless question to ask given that Kawamori-sensei has shown little inclination to revisit the core sectors in future Macross works.

I can't imagine the federal New UN Forces have need of anything even more uber than the VF-24 at present...

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Watching Macross II for the first time and I had a question about it's gunpod. I know the gunpod stores in the left arm armor when in SAP mode but can it be fired while in fighter mode like the VF-17 can with it's stealth gunpod? During the Marduk battle of episode 1 you can see some VF-2SS' firing some kind of weapon from the underside of the fighter but I'm not sure if it's the gunpod or the head laser guns.

vf-2ssgunpod.png

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4 minutes ago, Karaoke Ninja said:

Watching Macross II for the first time and I had a question about it's gunpod. I know the gunpod stores in the left arm armor when in SAP mode but can it be fired while in fighter mode like the VF-17 can with it's stealth gunpod?

No, the only Macross II: Lovers Again VFs that could conceivably fire their railgun pods in fighter mode would be the VF-2JA Icarus and VA-1SS Metal Siren.  The former mounts its on the underside like the VF-1, and the latter has a pair out on its wings.

 

4 minutes ago, Karaoke Ninja said:

During the Marduk battle of episode 1 you can see some VF-2SS' firing some kind of weapon from the underside of the fighter but I'm not sure if it's the gunpod or the head laser guns.

It's easier to see in the cleaned-up Macross II Blu-rays... they're firing the beam cannons mounted on the monitor turret (head) after they stop firing their anti-capital ship railguns.

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So the VF-2SS can't mount it's gunpod in it's base mode, has no missiles or hardpoints for missiles, can't use the SAP pack in the atmosphere, and it can't fire it's gunpod while in SAP fighter mode either? The VF-2 looks really cool but it seems like an awfully flawed design when compared to Kawamori's VFs...even the Icarus is sounding like the better machine. Thanks for the answers, Seto. Your posts are always very informative.

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39 minutes ago, Karaoke Ninja said:

So the VF-2SS can't mount it's gunpod in it's base mode, [...]

A point of order... it has never been established that the VF-2SS can't equip its gunpod in its "naked" configuration, though it only rarely operates without the Super Armed Pack (which is more a semi-permanent add-on than a disposable FAST pack).

 

39 minutes ago, Karaoke Ninja said:

has no missiles or hardpoints for missiles, [...]

The VF-2SS and VF-2JA were both developed from the base VF-2 Valkyrie II all-regime fighter... so presumably it does have pylon attachment points that it just doesn't use (often) due to the Super Armed Pack being semipermanent standard equipment.

 

39 minutes ago, Karaoke Ninja said:

can't use the SAP pack in the atmosphere, [...]

Macross Ultimate Frontier did depict it as being able to, for what little that is worth.

Mind you, the VF-2SS Valkyrie II is a variable fighter designed and intended to be used predominantly (almost exclusively) in space, so not being able to equip the Super Armed Pack in atmosphere would not be any real issue as the UN Spacy in Macross II has the VF-2JA as a dedicated atmospheric fighter.  

 

39 minutes ago, Karaoke Ninja said:

and it can't fire it's gunpod while in SAP fighter mode either? The VF-2 looks really cool but it seems like an awfully flawed design when compared to Kawamori's VFs...even the Icarus is sounding like the better machine. Thanks for the answers, Seto. Your posts are always very informative.

The VF-2SS isn't flawed, you're just making a comparison between an all-regime fighter (the VF-1) and a fighter optimized for space combat.

This kind of regime-optimization has occurred many times in Macross, though Macross II was the first to do it.  The UN Spacy in the Macross II timeline had, not unreasonably, concluded that overwhelming strategic emphasis needed to be given to repelling Zentradi attacks in space before they get anywhere near Earth given that the Zentradi don't care about holding terrain or landing troops on the planets they're attacking.  So they developed their latest fighter (the VF-2SS, which, despite its number was actually their sixth main fighter) for optimal combat performance in space based upon that logic. 

Several later Kawamori designs reflect the same logic, such as the VF-4/VF-5000 pairing and the later material that describes the VF-4 as kind of lackluster in atmosphere, the VF-19F/S and VF-19A, and to a lesser extent the VF-14 and VF-11.

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36 minutes ago, Bolt said:

what info specifically led Megaroad-01 towards the Galactic core?

Offhand, I don't recall any particular reason being given for Megaroad-01 and its escort fleet setting a course for the galactic core.

(Considering where Sol sits on the Orion-Cygnus arm, the vast majority of the Milky Way galaxy is in the general direction of "towards the galactic core".)

 

 

5 minutes ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

What was the name of the song Minmay was singing at the end of episode 36, as she left Hikaru and Misa?

やさしさSAYONARA ("Farewell to Tenderness"), which shares its title with the episode itself.

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Offhand, I don't recall any particular reason being given for Megaroad-01 and its escort fleet setting a course for the galactic core.

Wow. I'm surprised , I thought I was missing an obvious detail laid out somewhere in the story line..

another question.

i know I'm obsessed with Operation "Phantom Sword" from the Variable Fighter Master File VF-19 Excalibur book

(can't find any translation on the event!)

but why do the VF-19's depicted have an additional fold booster under slung ,as well as the fold booster mounted on top?

Is this because each fold booster is a one way ticket? I'm assuming the obvious answer has something to do with multiple fold jumps..

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53 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Wow. I'm surprised , I thought I was missing an obvious detail laid out somewhere in the story line..

another question.

i know I'm obsessed with Operation "Phantom Sword" from the Variable Fighter Master File VF-19 Excalibur book

(can't find any translation on the event!)

but why do the VF-19's depicted have an additional fold booster under slung ,as well as the fold booster mounted on top?

Is this because each fold booster is a one way ticket? I'm assuming the obvious answer has something to do with multiple fold jumps..

Most emigrant fleets were largely set on their course via the Kirk method, pointing out the window and saying "Over there... thataway." I think the fleet that colonized Eden knew it was going there, but I don't know if they knew a habitable planet was there. Frontier and Galaxy seemed to have, at least in secret, both known they were heading toward where the Vajra were known to be though, but it might have not been their plan from the start (especially Galaxy, as it had been around a bit longer if I recall).

I don't know anything about Phantom Sword, but I'd imagine it is for return folds.. a lot of the early fold boosters from the 2040s were single use disposables. I think reusable ones weren't developed until the time of Frontier. We don't know they were good for more than 2 even... actually come to think of it Alto doesn't even use the same booster to return to Frontier from Galia 4, he uses the super booster Michael brought, while Michael and Sheryl stowed away with the Vajra. The Super booster can clearly refold, but the normal ones might not be able to at all.

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1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Wow. I'm surprised , I thought I was missing an obvious detail laid out somewhere in the story line..

If you are, so are the rest of us... so you either aren't, or you are in excellent company.

 

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

i know I'm obsessed with Operation "Phantom Sword" from the Variable Fighter Master File VF-19 Excalibur book

(can't find any translation on the event!)

but why do the VF-19's depicted have an additional fold booster under slung ,as well as the fold booster mounted on top?

Is this because each fold booster is a one way ticket? I'm assuming the obvious answer has something to do with multiple fold jumps..

The only sections I've done out of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur so far are the variants list, block numbers list, and some stuff way at the front of the book about the cockpit and mobile seat.

I would assume, given that the events of Operation Phantom Sword are dated late 2041 and it says they were using the FBF-1000A fold booster, that the VF-19As are equipped with two of them because they need to:

  1. Fold a distance of greater than the 20 light years the FBF-1000A was rated for, either by making two fold jumps or having those fold boosters work together.
  2. They needed to generate a larger fold effect for a single jump to carry something (as Basara tried in Macross 7 during the attempt to rescue the captured Macross 5 civilians in the spiritia farm.
  3. They want to make a return trip without being serviced by the carrier, since the FBF-1000A was rated for a single use only.

 

42 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

I think the fleet that colonized Eden knew it was going there, but I don't know if they knew a habitable planet was there.

Eden was stumbled upon by a short-distance emigrant fleet, one of the ~100 that ended up exploring space within a few hundred light years of Sol.  It was discovered between the launches of Megaroad-01 and Megaroad-02.

 

42 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Frontier and Galaxy seemed to have, at least in secret, both known they were heading toward where the Vajra were known to be though, but it might have not been their plan from the start (especially Galaxy, as it had been around a bit longer if I recall).

Both fleets were basically flying into Vajra space intentionally... Frontier was pursuing Richard Bilra's dream of freeing the galaxy from the limitations imposed on fold travel by fold faults, where Galaxy was pursuing Grace O'Connor's implant network theory.

 

42 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

I think reusable ones weren't developed until the time of Frontier. We don't know they were good for more than 2 even... actually come to think of it Alto doesn't even use the same booster to return to Frontier from Galia 4, he uses the super booster Michael brought, while Michael and Sheryl stowed away with the Vajra. The Super booster can clearly refold, but the normal ones might not be able to at all.

By the time of Frontier, fold boosters were longer-ranged, more reliable, and good for multiple uses.  Alto appropriated Michael's because it was handy, since he didn't have time to go hunting for the one he'd left up in orbit with his Super Pack (which may not have even survived the dimension eater detonation).

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