Garou Kuroryuu Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 How would you be able to judge the validity of those points raised, without having seen M7? Lineart? Illustrations? Youtube clips? (you know you can basically watch the whole series in there, don't you?) Summaries? And what about Koji Kabuto? forget guitar controllers. he's the only one i've seen pilot a mecha using an exercise bow bar. Koji Kabuto > Basara ...ANYDAY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchizophrenicMC Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 But NONE of them have... SHINING FINGER! And that's why Domon Kasshu wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Basara and Kamina are the only two characters in all of anime- no, all of EVERYTHING, awesome enough to row without a boat and fight the power with manliness, awesome, and red and yellow super robots! Quoted for truth! Now, I'm off to prove a guitar CAN be used to fly a plane. It's a good thing Ace Combat 6 and Guitar Hero are both on the Xbox 360. Wait. I don't have Guitar Hero. Damn. (Cousin, can you come here?) If the guitar hero guitar had motion control, you'd have something there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuun Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 But NONE of them have... SHINING FINGER! And that's why Domon Kasshu wins. This honorable man knows what he's talking about. Domon is the best Gundam pilot because he's AWESOME and will bring you defeat just by screaming GUNDAAAAAAAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchizophrenicMC Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 If the guitar hero guitar had motion control, you'd have something there... I'll figure something out, you just wait. This honorable man knows what he's talking about. Domon is the best Gundam pilot because he's AWESOME and will bring you defeat just by screaming GUNDAAAAAAAM. Domon Kasshu: The only Gundam pilot to ever actually do anything by shouting GUNDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anime52k8 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Enough talk! This debate ends now!! Let's go!!!!!!!!!!! TOTSUGEKI LOVE HEAAAAARTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pete (proud to have spent the last hour working on Sheryl's ass!) OH MY GOD, MY EYES! THE GOOGLES DO NOTHING!!! thanks, now I'm going to go scrub my eyes with Clorox. But NONE of them have... SHINING FINGER! And that's why Domon Kasshu wins. THIS HAND OF MINE GLOWS WITH AN AWESOME POWER! IT'S BURNING GRIP TELLS ME TO DEFEAT YOU!! favorite gundam ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Now this topic has achieved true awesomeness. And you can't mention G Gundam without mentioning its creator's greatest opus, GIANT ROBO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 (edited) I find that I enjoy Macross 7 when you take away all preconceived notions of what Macross "should be" and simply follow Hodgson's Law. Seriously, the only thing bad about the series is the length (which probably compromised alot of things) but once you get past that (refer to my sig), it's quite entertaining, especially in the last few episodes. Besides, if you really think about it, original SDFM was actually trying to parody/deconstruct/troll the mecha anime tropes of the time and wasn't really trying to be "serious sci-fi". Now this topic has achieved true awesomeness. And you can't mention G Gundam without mentioning its creator's greatest opus, GIANT ROBO! Or the fact that he's trying to do it again with SHIN MAZINGER! And what about Koji Kabuto? forget guitar controllers. he's the only one i've seen pilot a mecha using an exercise bow bar. It's technically the handlebars for a motorcycle. Edited July 9, 2009 by d3v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taksraven Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 "Sheryl Nome: Building a better Basara?" One of the best thread titles, EVER. Taksraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Robot Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 "Sheryl Nome: Building a better Basara?" One of the best thread titles, EVER. Taksraven Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We can make him better...stronger...hotter in a cowgirl outfit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Snowblind- Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 We can make him better...stronger...hotter in a cowgirl outfit... He's joining The Village People? O.o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 He's joining The Village People? O.o In the spacy Yes, you can fly the seven stars In the spacy Yes, you can sing in spiritia wars In the spacy Come on now, people, make a stand In the spacy in the spacy Can't you see that battroid's hand In the spacy Come on, protect the motherland In the spacy Come on and join your fellow man In the spacy Come on people, and make a stand In the spacy, in the spacy, in the spacy (in the spacy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 After reading most of the points I'm sad to say that I HATE Basara!! And yes I have watched M7. I haven't watched the main series but not the movies and extra episodes. The points that have been brought out about how he cares more about the quality of his music more than how much Money can be made. But he doesn't sing to listeners but sings AT them without care if they like it or not. where as Sheryl would sing and care if you like it and if you didn't she would improve or change the performance so its more likable. The whole guitar hero flight control system.... yeah that was stupid; and I feel Basara was a good pilot but not as good as everyone makes him out to be. If your not a high priority target during a battle then the bullets may not be flying at you too much imo. But on another leaf... in GunXSword everyone piloted there mech's using weapons. The one female character had a Bo-staff but she used to be a stripper or promiscuous ..... you know what the just look at the picture. My Opinion is that Sheryl wouldn't get with basara. He cares too much about himself. If she was if Fire Bomba she'd leave. His continuous lack of professionalism would be the final nail in the coffin. if it were a duet like Lion by Sheryl Nome feat. Nekki Basara then yeah she'd probably do it. I really don't see him as the type of guy who would be there for her when times are rough or with her through thick and thin. But overall M7 made me mad at parts (mainly the continuous playing of planet dance every battle) and it felt like a giant toy commercial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Actually, there's quite a few fans who think that Basara is a deconstruction of the typical heroic, hot blooded mecha pilot protagonist and the typical "positive musical band leader" archetype, turning it on it's head and showing how truly annoying it could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) Actually, there's quite a few fans who think that Basara is a deconstruction of the typical heroic, hot blooded mecha pilot protagonist and the typical "positive musical band leader" archetype, turning it on it's head and showing how truly annoying it could be. Then what does that make kamina from ttgl? Edited July 11, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchizophrenicMC Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Then what does that make kamina from ttgl? A ripoff of Basara, but he can't sing. (Unless you count that one insert song...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) A ripoff of Basara, but he can't sing. (Unless you count that one insert song...) Kamina sang?! Also the more i look at that picture the more i think that she could be Nanases's relative. Or Nanase in that exact pose. Edited July 11, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchizophrenicMC Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Kamina sang?! Also the more i look at that picture the more i think that she could be Nanases's relative. Or Nanase in that exact pose. Here's to your laziness: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Here's to your laziness: oh... I usually skip that track. I thought you meant on the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Robot Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) Actually, there's quite a few fans who think that Basara is a deconstruction of the typical heroic, hot blooded mecha pilot protagonist and the typical "positive musical band leader" archetype, turning it on it's head and showing how truly annoying it could be. I wish I could really believe that, but he seemed to hit a year or two before deconstructionist mecha series became popular, and Macross 7 is so much a fit within its era otherwise. But it's an interesting thought. Edited July 11, 2009 by Killer Robot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I wish I could really believe that, but he seemed to hit a year or two before deconstructionist mecha series became popular, and Macross 7 is so much a fit within its era otherwise. But it's an interesting thought. But you have to consider that Macross has been doing deconstruction from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 The points that have been brought out about how he cares more about the quality of his music more than how much Money can be made. But he doesn't sing to listeners but sings AT them without care if they like it or not. where as Sheryl would sing and care if you like it and if you didn't she would improve or change the performance so its more likable. This would be a legitamite critique if not for the fact that Basara's music was the best ever made in the entire universe. since his music is the best ever made, he obviously doesn't care if other people agree it's the best or not - they just need to listen to his song. His confidence borders on religious fanaticism. Sheryl is just a mere entertainer - an idol - that's how she even thinks of herself, until it is revealed that she is mixed up in something bigger. But see - in Macross Frontier, culture and singing have become somewhat corrupted compared to their pure power as salvation for mankind. If we take DYRL/SDFM to be the "founding" of a new human civilization - founded on the power of song and culture, then by the time Macross Frontier roles around, all that's left is the form. Kind of like churches without worshippers, or people who go to church and just go through the motions. This was also kind of the situation in Macross: Plus. In fact, given just how cynical culture and music had become in Macross Plus, it's no wonder that Macross 7 followed, featuring a return to the pure love heart of music in the form of Bassara. And it's no wonder that everyone was skeptical of the powe of Music (except Max) - because most people were too young to remember Lyn Minmei and even if they read about it - it was kind of ancient history by then. Basara believed in the power of Minmei and loaded his songs with pure love heart. People were thick skulled and not able to appreciate the music. Ironically - it was the Protodevilin - who had for eons been deprived of spiritia and felt under-nourished and were incapable of concieving that they could make it for themselves - found themselves completely drawn to Basara in a way more powerful than humans, who were so saturated with cultural forms that they had a cynical approach to Basara's love heart. That's why Basara's music is able to stop the protodevilin fighting but not the humans - ever. In fact - this is why music ALWAYS stops the alien races from fighting, but is often laughed at by humans. We are the protoculture, after all - or at least their offshot - and we failed - sure, we established culture, but just like with the original Protoculture, we allowed science to corrupt us and we started looking at culture cynically. Bassara is there to shatter all that. That's why Sheryl would want to be with Bassara - because Bassara would harness her song power and make it pure. Remember, Sheryl was just an idol, and her shows were just shows. She had ambition - but it was only the ambition to be popular. It was Alto who taught her that even without fame, she was still a singer at heart and didn't have to worry about whether she was topping the charts or whether here CDs were discounted and selling for 25% and nobody remembered her. Ranka on the other hand, taught Sheryl that music was not just some dumb PR stunt, but actually could work (episode 12). And remember how she started singing in small clubs, and then during the attack, when she was in the shelter and all the people around her were panicking, she started to sing. It was by that point in the series that she had discovered the power of music as something pure, and became a true idol. I'm sure if she had met Bassara, she would have considered him unprofessional and naive and stupid, and silly etc etc etc - but Basarra could have been a catalyst much like Alto and Ranka were - for Sheryl to stop being a manufactured idol and become a real one,worthy of the title "Songstress of the Galaxy." Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 This would be a legitamite critique if not for the fact that Basara's music was the best ever made in the entire universe. since his music is the best ever made, he obviously doesn't care if other people agree it's the best or not - they just need to listen to his song. but if they think it an annoyance then they wont listen to it. Evidence When Gamlin was strapped into the song force chair thing. And forced to listen to Basara's singing he couldn't stand it. He did he like it by then idk i dont remember. I do remember he like mylene's singing tho. That and that whole statement above contradicts its self to me. Not to offend you but your post was a little too long. Not so much short attention span just i genuinely dislike Basara's character as a whole and A large portion of M7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 but if they think it an annoyance then they wont listen to it. Evidence When Gamlin was strapped into the song force chair thing. And forced to listen to Basara's singing he couldn't stand it. He did he like it by then idk i dont remember. I do remember he like mylene's singing tho. Yes, but Gamlin is actually FRIGHTENED by rock music... That and that whole statement above contradicts its self to me. Not to offend you but your post was a little too long. Not so much short attention span just i genuinely dislike Basara's character as a whole and A large portion of M7. Whoa there, Pardner. A VFTF1 who isn't long-winded isn't VFTF1 at all. (And actually, I think that's among his SHORTER posts...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) Yes, but Gamlin is actually FRIGHTENED by rock music... But he did like mylene's songs. if i remember right. Whoa there, Pardner. A VFTF1 who isn't long-winded isn't VFTF1 at all. (And actually, I think that's among his SHORTER posts...) I can believe it. it just the majority of the post was about basara. And i really don't like basara or most of his singing. Edited July 11, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 But he did like mylene's songs. if i remember right. After a while, yeah. Not immediately. I can believe it. it just the majority of the post was about basara. And i really don't like basara or most of his singing. I'm not sure I get your point. Isn't this whole thread kind of about Basara? If he'd written an off-topic screed about, I dunno, the implication of conscious versus unconscious memory in Marcel Proust's A la recherche du temps perdu, I could understand complaining about it. But it was on-topic and added to the conversation. It SOUNDS like you're saying that we should all be brief when we're talking about a subject you're not interested in, but I must be wrong about that, because that would be ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchizophrenicMC Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 After a while, yeah. Not immediately. I'm not sure I get your point. Isn't this whole thread kind of about Basara? If he'd written an off-topic screed about, I dunno, the implication of conscious versus unconscious memory in Marcel Proust's A la recherche du temps perdu, I could understand complaining about it. But it was on-topic and added to the conversation. It SOUNDS like you're saying that we should all be brief when we're talking about a subject you're not interested in, but I must be wrong about that, because that would be ridiculous. I like you, Gubaba. You always seem to know what to say. I woulda made a "your mom" joke and left it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 After a while, yeah. Not immediately. I'm not sure I get your point. Isn't this whole thread kind of about Basara? If he'd written an off-topic screed about, I dunno, the implication of conscious versus unconscious memory in Marcel Proust's A la recherche du temps perdu, I could understand complaining about it. But it was on-topic and added to the conversation. It SOUNDS like you're saying that we should all be brief when we're talking about a subject you're not interested in, but I must be wrong about that, because that would be ridiculous. well its more how the character was put up on a pedestal. border line of saying he's greatest character ever in the macross universe and has absolutely no faults what so ever. But mainly its me. I'm not a big talker so when i do talk i usually get straight to the point. Dang you A.D.D.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 well its more how the character was put up on a pedestal. border line of saying he's greatest character ever in the macross universe and has absolutely no faults what so ever. But mainly its me. I'm not a big talker so when i do talk i usually get straight to the point. Dang you A.D.D.! Ah, NOW I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeBot Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) well its more how the character was put up on a pedestal. border line of saying he's greatest character ever in the macross universe and has absolutely no faults what so ever. But mainly its me. I'm not a big talker so when i do talk i usually get straight to the point. Dang you A.D.D.! I'm pretty sure at least some of that was tongue in cheek. At least... I hope it was. He made a lot of good points, too, about culture being corrupted since Space War I times into just a commercial enterprise... although I would have put the date that started right back to the concerts held in post-apocalyptic Earth, under Kaifun's management. Also, the briefer way of saying what you were saying is "TL;DR". Edited July 12, 2009 by DeeBot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondTheGrave Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'm pretty sure at least some of that was tongue in cheek. At least... I hope it was. He made a lot of good points, too, about culture being corrupted since Space War I times into just a commercial enterprise... although I would have put the date that started right back to the concerts held in post-apocalyptic Earth, under Kaifun's management. Also, the briefer way of saying what you were saying is "TL;DR". i see what he saying about culture becoming mainstream and becoming a weapon but a lot of the information was unnecessary to me or took too long to make a point. and some of it is just over my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Robot Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I never got the impression that Basara was ever pushed as the best musician that ever was: the effectiveness of his music was never about quality, skill, or so on but rather about the spirit behind his music being strong and pure. This is pretty uniform across Macross series too: it's about moving people, not artistic skill or technical brilliance. Usually in fact it's the point that it is music that matters above all: the Zentradi being moved by music itself and Minmay just being their first exposure, Sound Energy not being produced by musical skill but by someone of proper spiritual ability performing, Sheryl and Ranka's ability to reach the Vajra not being because they were totally awesome singers but because they were the only human singers the Vajra could understand, etc. It's never really about the music in Macross, it's about music's ability to build bridges of communication where just talking things out isn't done or isn't possible. That said, Minmay's music was beloved by the people of the Macross: the Zentradi only ever heard it since it was so popular that she was on all the humans' TV and radio broadcasts. Sheryl and Ranka were popular and not just because of a blind publicity machine: they just weren't successful in the real war for the same reason they were successful on the pop charts. Even Fire Bomber started off with a reasonably enthused crowd and soon moved to greater stardom through the Galaxy, once they managed to get an album and some radio playtime so people actually heard them. Macross 7 did to some things about the commercialization of culture and the struggle of being a talented unknown in a media-driven society, especially in the early series filler, but it didn't end up being a prime push except where it coincided with showing how much Basara doesn't want to have to promote his music among all the thousands of others in the galaxy who wanted -their- songs to be listened to. Sure, Gamlin didn't like him but he wasn't a fan of rock. Ditto most others who weren't fans after they heard the stuff. Anyway, my meandering point here is that I didn't get any impression that Basara's status as "world's greatest musician" was important. If anything, it was a "world's purest spirit" thing. Which is important, since the Protodeviln weren't being repelled by music, but by spiritual power itself. His ability to communicate and reach them with the -music- part was much slower and more personal, and there happened exactly the same with the Protodeviln as it did with the humans around them. The Protodeviln acted differently than humans to his Spiritia, but not so much to his song and his message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchizophrenicMC Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Meaningful Post So, where does that leave Sharon Apple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I never got the impression that Basara was ever pushed as the best musician that ever was: the effectiveness of his music was never about quality, skill, or so on but rather about the spirit behind his music being strong and pure. This is pretty uniform across Macross series too: it's about moving people, not artistic skill or technical brilliance. Usually in fact it's the point that it is music that matters above all Killer Robot gets it in one. That's exactly the point. In Macross Frontier, this is the point that Micheal makes to Ranka, who's acting like a sore loser and being pouty because she wants to be famous like Sheryl and wants to be big and popular like Sheryl and Nichan is being a dork... And Michael says: "Hey - did you even see that guy standing by the stairs singing? Could you do that?" And that's the point - that guy singing by the stairs, even though it was a pretty lame song - was really doing bunka. And Ranka's first big lesson in bunka was to just sing - instead of spending her life arguing, positioning herself etc. Now - think about it... how would Basara have reacted if an older brother or a peer had said "you can't become a singer?" He would have just gone and started singing. I'm not trying to be dogmatic here - and yeah, of course my statement about Basara's music being perfect is an overstatement - and it's made to serve a point... But in general, one of the themes in Macross is the corruption of culture by the protoculture and by humanity, who are the direct inheritors and offspring of protoculture's civilization - the "second chance" so to speak. Sheryl starts out as a corrupt self-absorbed pop idol who doesn't understand the power of the music she sings, nor its' importance. By the end of the series, she is a true super star idol - I think that scene in the bunker is a beautiful completion of her character arc - going from aloof super star idol to ambitious girl who wants to help other ambitious girl gain popularity to wash-out nobody, to artist who realizes that whether or not she's selling well, she must still sing - to a singer who can truly move people's hearts without the flashy stage acts. Remember what the bridge bunnies said seeing Sheryl just singing at the club without any light-and-sound shows? "I think I prefer her that way" So... yeah... obviously it's not as clear a sitution as what I made out with Bassara - but I think this is one of the more amazing and important themes in Macross - this tension between culture as mere entertainment/money making aparatus and culture as something more. This doesn't mean I think people shouldn't strive to be popular or make money - but sometimes there comes a point when (like in the case of Myung) the ambition to be popular and famous overshadows the most important question: "Are you popular and famous for something that it's worth being popular and famous for?" Pete Edit: Oh - and just an acknowledgement to my tag-team partner Beware...for when I exit the ring to get some sleep...Gubaba appears! Edited July 12, 2009 by VFTF1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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