Air Combat Manuever in Macross

[Sulendil Ang]

Well, we see lots of dogfights in Macross, but I rarely see topics of discussing the tactics used in the series. So here's one.

First thing, I notice it isn't common for normal pilots to change their valks' modes during dogfight. Why is that?

And second, is it common UNS tactic to launch micro-missiles before engaging the enemy, and in your own opinion, is it a effective tactic?

Of course, you can also list other maneuvers you have seen in the Macross series as well. Any helps is welcomed.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

First thing, I notice it isn't common for normal pilots to change their valks' modes during dogfight. Why is that?

Well I always assumed because they were not experenced enough (or smart enough), but mostly not experenced,oh and probly there for canon fodder purposes. Pretty much all the ace flyers I'v seen in the series change there modes multiple times in a dog fights, heck look at the battle between Isamu and Guild in M+, or Max and Millia in SDFM.

And second, is it common UNS tactic to launch micro-missiles before engaging the enemy, and in your own opinion, is it a effective tactic?

I always thought of this manuver as a "I'll luanch all I have, and hope I hit them and wittle there numbers down" thing. That and it looks pimp when an Itano circus is let loose.

[Morpheus]

Bandit at your six (changes Gerwalk and reverse thrust), bandit at your twelve, lock and fox three.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Bandit at your six (changes Gerwalk and reverse thrust), bandit at your twelve, lock and fox three.

Micro Missiles Luanch.

[sdf2501]

Well, we see lots of dogfights in Macross, but I rarely see topics of discussing the tactics used in the series. So here's one.

First thing, I notice it isn't common for normal pilots to change their valks' modes during dogfight. Why is that?

Limits of animation, I'd assume, although most likely fighter mode provides the most speed and changing to anything else would result in a drop in speed thus allowing the enemy to either catch up or speed away.

But I'm fairly certain they've changed modes in a dog fight, although I can't think of a specific example. I'll have to keep an eye out for this the next time I watch anything Macross.

And second, is it common UNS tactic to launch micro-missiles before engaging the enemy, and in your own opinion, is it a effective tactic?

I'd assume that it's just a normal part of any kind of combat, whether it's in space, air, or on the ground.

As the two enemy forces engage, launch projectile weapons first (shells, missiles, arrows, spears, catapult, whatever) as both sides approach each other, and then follow up via melee. The initial attack allows you to take out as much of the enemy as you can without directly engaging them, so that when you do engage them, there's less of them.

[Batou]

I always thought of this manuver as a "I'll luanch all I have, and hope I hit them and wittle there numbers down" thing. That and it looks pimp when an Itano circus is let loose.

Yeah, that's my take. It would serve two purposes:

1.) Hit as many of the enemy as possible, weakening them up for when you close in for the kill.

2.) Keep them busy trying to shoot down missles so as to avoid being blown to tiny little bits. If they're occupied trying to blast missles, then they can't be shooting at you while you're closing the gap.

I also think some of this may stem from Space War 1, where Zentradi superior numbers forced them to use reaction weaponry to even the odds. In the opening scenes in DYRL (or close to the beginning, you know the one) where Roy/Hik/etc were intercepting that Zent wing of pods, the first thing they did was let loose the big dawgs (i.e., RMS-1 nukes). They'd carve a hole in the enemy ranks, and then sweep in and clean up the survivors.

Seems to be a logical tactic to me. Soften them up prior to engaging at close range, keep 'em occupied so they can't blast you while you're coming in (precious little cover to take advantage of in space, after all, so it's more or less a straight line, and you don't wanna have to "dodge" beam weaponry)

[The_WOZ]

I always thought of this manuver as a "I'll luanch all I have, and hope I hit them and wittle there numbers down" thing. That and it looks pimp when an Itano circus is let loose.

In other words 'spray and pray', if some of you have played IL2 sturmovik online, had probably encounter some noob flying some plane with big guns (or volleys of unguided rockets such as the german R4M) and using this technique, since a single hit would usually destroy the target.

[Garou Kuroryuu]

Limits of animation, I'd assume, although most likely fighter mode provides the most speed and changing to anything else would result in a drop in speed thus allowing the enemy to either catch up or speed away.

But I'm fairly certain they've changed modes in a dog fight, although I can't think of a specific example. I'll have to keep an eye out for this the next time I watch anything Macross.

I'd assume that it's just a normal part of any kind of combat, whether it's in space, air, or on the ground.

As the two enemy forces engage, launch projectile weapons first (shells, missiles, arrows, spears, catapult, whatever) as both sides approach each other, and then follow up via melee. The initial attack allows you to take out as much of the enemy as you can without directly engaging them, so that when you do engage them, there's less of them.

Totally agree. I can't remember an exact scene in SDFM where this was used, buy DYRL clearly showed the purpose of the initial BVR reaction-weaponry attack: they took a good number of enemy craft before engaging in dogfight, in which micro-missiles were used.

EDIT: Just remembered. In several scenes in SDFM (tipycally recycled), Valkyries could be seen launching their medium range missiles before coming into dogfight distance.

In MF, the initial attack by the NUNS' VF-171s followed the very same tactic, with no positive results as it seems thou.

I use this same tactic in Call of Duty 4 in small scenarios: "throw all your grenades at start to different directions. Some enemies might get killed."

Another tactic used since SDFM is "blast off the armor, use it as missile's decoy/deflector and and push towards the enemy at full speed meanwhile" (SDFM: Hikaru, M+: Isamu, MF: Altoh, seem to remember it also happened in M0).

In every "ace" dogfight, we've seen the use of mode-changing almost to it's fullest, Ozma making the last addition to mode-changing tactics list: "while the enemy is aiming for the center-of-mass while in battoroid mode, change to gerwalk to avoid incoming fire and retaliate".

Edited May 26, 2008 by Garou Kuroryuu

[Beltane70]

Limits of animation, I'd assume, although most likely fighter mode provides the most speed and changing to anything else would result in a drop in speed thus allowing the enemy to either catch up or speed away.

In atmosphere, yes. In outer space, changing modes shouldn't affect the speed as there's nothing to cause friction to slow the fighter down. Not that Macross actually pays attention to that.

[dizman]

Ha yeah I've played with people like that woz, kids and their german guided rockets from 1946. Anyhoo SW1 really did see a need for the large waste of missiles as the enemies were very agile in space and 1 missile could easily be avoided. 20 missiles on the other hand means your bound to hit something (and thats better than hitting nothing). As for not transforming, maybe they just liked to die.

[Vinnie]

In atmosphere, yes. In outer space, changing modes shouldn't affect the speed as there's nothing to cause friction to slow the fighter down. Not that Macross actually pays attention to that.

The advantage of transformation in space is that theoretically you should have to use less of your limited vernier fuel to achieve different effects such as changing your thrust vector or aiming your primary weapons system. So instead of having to burn to do a 180 pitch change and a burn to stop that movement, you'd just have to kick the legs out in front and do short burns on different verniers across the body to compensate for the mechanical change in CG.

[ma2ha3]

anyone of you want to fly wingmen for alto?

i would never,

course he is too reckless

like maverick of top gun

good pilot, but totally out of control

flying wing men with him is sure death

missile seem useless against big varja

so, shooting it is useless

[darkrealmbahamut]

Technically the use of micro missles is sort of like when the real air force "ripples" with long range weapons.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

The advantage of transformation in space is that theoretically you should have to use less of your limited vernier fuel to achieve different effects such as changing your thrust vector or aiming your primary weapons system. So instead of having to burn to do a 180 pitch change and a burn to stop that movement, you'd just have to kick the legs out in front and do short burns on different verniers across the body to compensate for the mechanical change in CG.

Also by changing into battoriod mode wouldn't you be a little bit more agile then in fighter mode in space or atmosphere?

[d3v]

And second, is it common UNS tactic to launch micro-missiles before engaging the enemy, and in your own opinion, is it a effective tactic?

Of course, you can also list other maneuvers you have seen in the Macross series as well. Any helps is welcomed.

Makes sound tactical sense, I mean, why go for close range combat when you can take them out with missiles at the start. In fact, I believe most modern air combat takes place at beyond visual range and real dogfights are rare.

[d3v]

Technically the use of micro missles is sort of like when the real air force "ripples" with long range weapons.

Actually, last I checked (in DYRL and Frontier ep 1), they were using long range missiles mounted underwing for the initial barrage.

Edited May 27, 2008 by d3v

[Neova]

First thing, I notice it isn't common for normal pilots to change their valks' modes during dogfight. Why is that?

I was re-watching Macross Zero over the weekend and you can see a lot of this with Roy switching modes in his first battle with his VF-0S vs Ivanov's SV-51r.

It appears in atmosphere, switching modes does provide increased manuverability and agility - fighter to gerwalk, gerwalk to fighter, then lastly to battroid for mid air CQB.

Also the first battle with Nora's SV-51r vs Shin's F-14, Nora switches fighter to gerwalk when pursued by Shin to pull behind him.

Thoses were some great transformation battles there.

[d3v]

But I'm fairly certain they've changed modes in a dog fight, although I can't think of a specific example. I'll have to keep an eye out for this the next time I watch anything Macross.

In Macross 7, it usually meant that the VF-11 in question would get pwned by the Varuta soon.

[Fade Rathnik]

In the opening scenes in DYRL (or close to the beginning, you know the one) where Roy/Hik/etc were intercepting that Zent wing of pods, the first thing they did was let loose the big dawgs (i.e., RMS-1 nukes). They'd carve a hole in the enemy ranks, and then sweep in and clean up the survivors.

The reaction war heads are red caps they were using yellow caped which some consider to be a frag warhead instead. Which makes even more sense as reaction/nuke are less of an area effect in space and more expensive, and reserved for anti warship.

As far as tactics M0 is the best place to start when looking for tactics and maneuvers. Radar is more or less useless in a combat sense, everyone has active countermeasures that work quite well, so optical in its various forms is all they got. We see a clear variation of the Cobra used often, also shift spins to engage a chasing target, Feints to lead fire away. Reminds me of dog fighting in descent.