Official - Weapons Banter Thread

[phoenix01]

I think for our own sakes we should 86 the politio talk in this thread. Yes, we are all peeved about the gun grabbers but by constantly mulling them here and dropping names and politically heated replies we may get our beloved thread locked or deleted.

Back to the talk of guns and let's just leave the political angles to heated bashing while buying ammo in our local gun stores.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm afraid with any topic like this some of the angst will leak in.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Angst will always leak in, it's human nature. The trick is to understand the "opposition" and for them to understand you... but human nature gets the best of all of us. Gun control is a by-product of fear, people fear what they do not understand, what they don't wish to understand or what they are told to be afraid of. The real demon facing man is man himself, not machines or ideas or laws. I myslef fear what people can and would do to me and my new "family" (if a wife and a cat can be called a family) so I arm myself against threats. Military training, lots of practice and a decent head on my shoulders makes me (I would love to believe) a responsable gun owner... but there are those people out there that fear the guns and not the person pulling the trigger. That belief is irrational as weapons are tools, they cannot have a polar capacity like "good" or "evil". Is a hammer good? Is a bench lathe evil? Is a person good? Is an individual evil? Neither. Only people's actions are good or evil... and most of the time that capacity is in the eye of the beholder. The gun laws we need should be retroactive not proactive. The laws should focus on the use of the weapon and not the weapon itself. If it was a manditory 30 year sentence for using a firearm in the comission of a crime then I bet the prisons would fill up past capacity (like they are now) but gun crime might drop. You never know.

Anyway I'm breaking my own request again here so this should be the last post on the topic of law, on to better happier topics.

I'm going to my local gun shop today to look over the springer catalogs and possibly put in my order for my M1A1 (M14). I really want the NM classic but it might be more cash than I have to spare right now so I might end up just going with one of the cheaper ones.

[mbs357]

I've been around guns all my life, love them very much. I like rifles and all, but I'm more into pistols.

Favorite Pistols:

CZ-75 Original. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg51-e.htm

Colt Single Action Army. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg32-e.htm

USP Compact. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg11-e.htm

Beretta 92FS. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg07-e.htm

FN Five SeveN. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg18-e.htm

Colt M1911. http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg04-e.htm

Favorite SMGs:

HK MP-5A2. http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg14-e.htm

FN P90. http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm

The Thompson. http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg29-e.htm

Favorite Rifles:

Giat FAMAS. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as21-e.htm

ArmaLite AR-10. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as16-e.htm

M14. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as15-e.htm

M16. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm

M4. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as17-e.htm

AK-47. http://world.guns.ru/assault/as01-e.htm

And that's about it for firearms. Though I've probably left some things out.

As far as melee weapons.

The Katana. I've wanted one for a very long time, and wanted to study some sort of Kenjutsu for about as long. Unfortunatly, in this small town of mine surrounded by farms and the like, I doubt I could find a good instructor. Not too crazy about learning from an American, rather have a Japanese sensei.

By the way, the site I'm linking to is very informative about just about everything related to guns, a definate reccomendation: http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

Edited July 18, 2004 by mbs357

[Chowser]

As far as melee weapons.

The Katana.  I've wanted one for a very long time, and wanted to study some sort of Kenjutsu for about as long.  Unfortunatly, in this small town of mine surrounded by farms and the like, I doubt I could find a good instructor.  Not too crazy about learning from an American, rather have a Japanese sensei.

I started with Aikido, they had some basic sword instruction in it, but I've since found an instructor in Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu. I've also been part of the Kendo club at college.

if you can find an instructor, no matter what race, and do a background, you should be ok. my first instructor was japanese, but has since had a heart attack and retired, but recommended my current instructor who is an American (he's white).

here's a pic of my current favorite toys:

My Last Legend Tsunami 306 Katana and Tsunami 300 Wakizashi.

(please ignore my little girl's tablecloth)

also, back to guns,

my buddy said he should be getting some HK P2000 and P2000SK guns in later this summer. I'm debating getting the P2000SK, but I might wait for it to come out in .357 SIG before I buy. I might just get it in .40S&W and wait for a barrel to come out in .357SIG.

Edited July 18, 2004 by Chowser

[Mechamaniac]

OK all you gun nuts.....It's opinion time...

Later this year, or early next year, I will FINALLY be going on the long awaited Wild Boar hunt that my dad does every year. He's been wanting me to go forever, but job, family, young kids blah blah have been pre-occupying me lo these many years past... Anyhoo, I finally have a chance to go, and here's the sweet part of the deal....

Even though my Dad is more than willing to loan me one of his big bore pistolas, I told my wife that I cannot go using another man's hardware. Sorry, but you just don't borrow another guy's stuff to go running through the swamp chasing after large, ugly, hairy mammals that have the potential to kill you back.

So, that being said, it's time for me to pick up a new toy!..... (JOYGASM!!)

I said all that to say this...

Looking for opinions on the best big bore battle pistol to get. I don't intend on lugging a rifle through the swamps of Georgia, so it must be a pistol. I prefer an automatic, as I have the most experience with them.

So, what shall it be gents?, I really don't like overpriced hand cannons so the Desert Eagle .44 and .50 are out.

I intend to shoot hardball through it, as hollowpoints really don't work well on Boar since they have the gristle plate that eats up hollowpoints like crazy.

Opinions??

[JsARCLIGHT]

For hunting purposes you want something that can hit with power but at the same time be accurate. I myself am not a hunter but my pistol hunting friends have Lone Eagles or Single Action revolvers. You can get a Magnum Research BFR or Lone Eagle now for pennies on the dollar, those are single action revolvers and single shot pistols but they come in large enough calibers to knock down just about anything. Plus the Lone Eagle can be chambered for rifle rounds like 7mm Remington and .308.

Also when it comes to the Desert Eagle most of what you hear is hype. About all that gun is good for is hunting but you would need one of the long barrels plus a scope to use the thing effectively. When it comes to hunting you want power over capacity so most black rifles and common pistols are out. There are tons of specialty long barreled revolvers for just this application but they tend to look goofy. Who in the world waves a revolver with a 12" barrel around? A hunter and that is about it.

[Mechamaniac]

Yeah, I really don't like revolvers unless they are the good old fashioned S&W Model 29 (AKA too much barrel) or the old black powder models (Outlaw Josey Wales).

I have fired the Desert Eagle in .44, and it was just too much gun. It fired like a sweetheart, but ammo was way expensive, and the thing was just too big for my hand.

I prefer automatics, so, realistically, I'm probably looking at a 1911 model, or a Sig Sauer. Glocks are functional as all hell, but aesthetics counts too, and they are fugly, and too spartan for my tastes.

[Opus]

I think a 1911 would be a bad idea. The .45ACP has lousy penetration and boar are tough mofos. You want to kill him as quickly as possible because if you piss him off he's coming for your ass. maybe you should consider a carbine. I did some boar hunting a few years ago and I used my Mini-30 with my .454 as backup and that worked pretty well.

[Mechamaniac]

I think a 1911 would be a bad idea. The .45ACP has lousy penetration and boar are tough mofos. You want to kill him as quickly as possible because if you piss him off he's coming for your ass. maybe you should consider a carbine. I did some boar hunting a few years ago and I used my Mini-30 with my .454 as backup and that worked pretty well.

Nah... the danger is part of the fun. It will be pistol only for me. Well, a pistol, and a BFK!.

My dad had a similar experience with .45 ACP though. The first time he tried with hollowpoints, and like I said, the bullet hit the gristle plate, the hollow point filled up with gristle, and did not expand or penetrate past the gristle plate.

He drilled that one with a 10MM Glock, and it went down like a ton of bricks.

The next time, he used his .45 again, but used FMJ hardball ammo, and it worked fine.

I really don't care for rifles in that kind of environment, we're talking chest deep swampy stuff here.

Edited July 27, 2004 by Mechamaniac

[VF19]

I pretty much refuse to use any kind of hollowpoint ammo. it djust doesn't work well unless you are hunting deer. FMJ takes the cake for me.

[bsu legato]

Get yourself a good, used Ruger Blackhawk in .44 mag. Failing that, the Taurus Ragin Bull would fit the bill, and win you those valuable "style" points.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm pretty sure you can still get an Automag III self-loader chambered in .30 carbine for a pretty good price... those basically look like long disproportionate 1911's.

As I said, I'm not a hunter, but it seems to me you want something chambered in a very strong round to drop the beastie in one shot. Most animals tend to run off like squirrels when shot so you might not get another chance at it with a small caliber pistol. I would think anything .45LC or in that family (.454, .480 or even a .50 Beowolf) would knock the crap out of anything you shot.

Plus if you are in a swampy situation the more simple and fool-proof a weapon the better... like a nice revolver.

Or you could just compromise and get this monster... I call him "Muthuh" and he is my new toy...

[bsu legato]

Or you could just compromise and get this monster... I call him "Muthuh" and he is my new toy...

Is that what I think it is?

[JsARCLIGHT]

That depends on what you think it is.

It's just a run of the mill Smith and Wesson 625 custom shop chambered in .45LC with the super underlug package, scope rail and hardwood grips. It is as close to the Snake Plisken custom pistol as I can get. Next stop is a silver finish Propoint 3 for the top.

This gun makes me feel all tingly inside.

Now I can proudly say the line from Johnny Dangerously when wielding it:

"It's an .88 Magnum... it shoots through schools."

[bsu legato]

Great. Now you just need a second one for the other hand.

*fumes in extreme jealousy*

[JsARCLIGHT]

I just picked it up on the way home from work tonight... was not even going to buy another pistol. Went into the gun shop a few weeks back looking to order an M1A1 and there in the case brand spanking new was this stainless steel beastie. It spoke to me and I had to buy it.

Hey, these might be legal up there in Canada... the barrel is 6.5" long. Doesn't that meet your length laws? Plus it was cheap for a shop gun, only about $800 with tax and permit.

... as for one in each hand you have to be off your rocker, I can barely hold onto this one with two hands! Plisken must have had the forearms of Arnold!

Edited July 28, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[bsu legato]

Hey, these might be legal up there in Canada... the barrel is 6.5" long. Doesn't that meet your length laws? Plus it was cheap for a shop gun, only about $800 with tax and permit.

Yep, 6.5" is over the legal limit. The f*ckers cut it off at 4", making anything shorter a "saturday night special." Yeah, like there's a lot of gangstahs toting around P08 Lugers and all. Plus it's .45 Colt, a man's cartridge if there ever was one. Of course, if you want to be 100% screen accurate you need to ditch the hardwood grips and find the OEM rubbers.

... as for one in each hand you have to be off your rocker, I can barely hold onto this one with two hands! Plisken must have had the forearms of Arnold!

Kurt is (was) fairly built, at least back in '95. But you're not a real He-Man unless you can heft a pair of 4 1/2 lb Walker Colts like Josey Wales.

[Opus]

I usually shoot .45 LC in my casull. I'm not completely crazy no matter what the doctors say.

The thing to keep in mind about wild boar is that they're notorious rabies carriers and unlike deer and bunnies they're very aggressive.

Another thing to keep in mind is that revolvers are alot less prone to mechanical failure than autos.

[Mechamaniac]

I usually shoot .45 LC in my casull. I'm not completely crazy no matter what the doctors say.

The thing to keep in mind about wild boar is that they're notorious rabies carriers and unlike deer and bunnies they're very aggressive.

Another thing to keep in mind is that revolvers are alot less prone to mechanical failure than autos.

True, and to a novice shooter, an automatic misfeed, or misfire would mean instant panic, however, I am both Military and Police trained and know how to handle an automatic. Shot placement is KEY as in anything else, and I'm not one of those shitheads who think that if it holds 15 rounds, you should put all of them in the beast. I was raised to be a one shot, one kill kind of guy.

If I were to go revolver though, I would definitely go big bore, but .45 LC or something of that class, I've never been a fan of .44 Mag.

I'm really starting to warm up to the Glock 20 in 10MM though. Yeah, it's butt fugly, but they are the shiznit, and I don't think anyone else makes an automatic in 10MM that is in the affordable price range (non-custom trick gun). If I could, I'd grab one of the old Colt 10MM Delta Elite's, but those were a pretty penny back in the day, and I'm sure they are even more so now.

[Mechamaniac]

Well HOLY CRAP!!!

In my search for a hog(killing)leg, I stopped by my local armory today on the way home from work. Told em I was in the mood for a big bore battle pistol with which to shoot a big pig, and they produced this beast!!!

Smith & Wesson's new 500 Smith & Wesson Magnum pistol!

This sucker is HUGE, and very very front heavy. It comes pre-ported (thank jeebus) and packing a serious wallop...

This round packs DOUBLE, yes DOUBLE the wallop of the most heavily loaded 44 Magnum bullet. It straight outmatches .454 as well.

Funny thing, the guy had an empty shell casing into which he was able to drop a complete .44 Magnum round!

In all, WAAAAY too much gun, but neat nevertheless. I can't imagine touching off this hand cannon anywhere, and what's worse? THEY MAKE THIS BEAST WITH A 4" BARREL AS WELL!!!

[JsARCLIGHT]

Heh... I was wondering if someone was going to spot the Smithy 500 in this current page.

The Smithy 500, when you absolutely, positively need to shoot through those four or five walls to hit that target.

[VF19]

Along with an engine block, and several oil drums.

[Graham]

In the the S&W .500 Magnum, I far prefer the shorter barreled version. Should be much easier to carry when hiking or trekking and by all accounts it's a real blast to shoot (pun intended).

Graham

[Graham]

I'm really starting to warm up to the Glock 20 in 10MM though.  Yeah, it's butt fugly, but they are the shiznit, and I don't think anyone else makes an automatic in 10MM that is in the affordable price range (non-custom trick gun).  If I could, I'd grab one of the old Colt 10MM Delta Elite's, but those were a pretty penny back in the day, and I'm sure they are even more so now.

Although I'm more of a Glock 21 fan (had 10,000rds through mine with no failures to feed or fire), I also love the Glock 20, although none of the gun dealers stock 10mm ammo here in HK, so on the rare occasions when I still do shoot, there's no way to shoot 10mm

On one overseas trip I did once have a chance to shoot steel falling plates at 100m with a Glock 20. Fantastic gun and very flat shooting at that range.

For hunting with the Glock 20, I'd recommend the factory optional 6" barrel, which should probably add a couple hundred fps velocity.

And Glocks are NOT butt ugly. They are beautiful guns.

Graham

(Glock dealer & Glock armorer since 1996)

[Mechamaniac]

And Glocks are NOT butt ugly. They are beautiful guns.

Graham

(Glock dealer & Glock armorer since 1996)

Sorry G, but we'll have to agree to disagree. While I love the Glocks for their simplicity, and awesome functionality, they are about as aesthetically pleasing as a trash can lid.

Have you see the new ones they are doing with OD Green frames??

If I want a polymer frame gun, I would sooner go for an H&K SOCOM. IMHO, it has all the good points of the Glock, but a few added functions as well that really give it the edge.

Funny, I am also considering the Glock 21 in .45 ACP which is my favorite auto pistol cartridge, but the guys at the gun store looked at me like I had shite for brains when I said I was going after wild boar and intended to use a .45. They claimed it never would have enough stopping power, and led that into a chance to show off the behemoth .55 S&W Magnum.

Still, my Father has killed many a wild boar with his Colt 1911 so I know it will work.

[Opus]

Still, my Father has killed many a wild boar with his Colt 1911 so I know it will work.

You could probably kill a boar with a sharpened stick but that doesn't make it a good idea. The 10mm sounds like the best idea yet. I shot clean through an old refrigerator with my S&W 1006 and when I opened the fridge there was an old enging block inside.

.40S&W may also be something to consider.

Edited July 29, 2004 by Opus

[Graham]

If I want a polymer frame gun, I would sooner go for an H&K SOCOM.  IMHO, it has all the good points of the Glock, but a few added functions as well that really give it the edge.

I'm not a big fan of the H&K MK23, IMO it's really just too big for what it is.

I admit I've only fired a single magazine through one, but I found the grip too blocky and the gun was just too large and didn't point well at all for me. The beavertail is also too square (H&K should have rounded the corners) and it makes disengaging the safety a little uncomfortable, at least for me. The MK23 would really benefit from a size reduction.

If you really must get an H&K 45 pistol, I'd go with the full size 45 USP. Very reliable, much less bulky and points better than the MK23 as well. I'd recomend the variant without the decock function though if you carry cocked n' locked as I've seen several shooters who do carry cocked n' locked sweep the safety down too far on a speed draw and go into decock, instead of fire. Result = gun don't go bang and you have to waste half a second to let the safety/decock lever go back to fire position and then fire from double action. Seen the same thing happen to shooters of the Taurus PT-92 series autos who carry cocked n' locked as well.

Of course, I still recommend a G21. Points better than any H&K, less muzzle flip due to lower bore axis and with hi-cap mags you get one more round than the MK23/USP.45.

Completely OT, but my R1 Sledge Hammer, season 1 DVD box set just arrived from Amazon.......Yee ha! Can't wait to get home and pop it in the DVD player "Trust me, I know what I'm doing".

Graham

[Graham]

Still, my Father has killed many a wild boar with his Colt 1911 so I know it will work.

You could probably kill a boar with a sharpened stick but that doesn't make it a good idea. The 10mm sounds like the best idea yet. I shot clean through an old refrigerator with my S&W 1006 and when I opened the fridge there was an old enging block inside.

.40S&W may also be something to consider.

You have a 1006? Oh you lucky guy. I love the S&W large frame 5" 45/10mm autos (645, 745, 945, 4506, 1006). I've always wanted to try a 1006, but have never had the chance.

My very first 45 pistol was the two-tone 745, totally reliable and great trigger and sights.

I'm still pissed at S&W for dropping the 5" 4506 and 945

Graham

[Opus]

Still, my Father has killed many a wild boar with his Colt 1911 so I know it will work.

You could probably kill a boar with a sharpened stick but that doesn't make it a good idea. The 10mm sounds like the best idea yet. I shot clean through an old refrigerator with my S&W 1006 and when I opened the fridge there was an old enging block inside.

.40S&W may also be something to consider.

You have a 1006? Oh you lucky guy. I love the S&W large frame 5" 45/10mm autos (645, 745, 945, 4506, 1006). I've always wanted to try a 1006, but have never had the chance.

My very first 45 pistol was the two-tone 745, totally reliable and great trigger and sights.

I'm still pissed at S&W for dropping the 5" 4506 and 945

Graham

It's really funny. Every time I take the 1006 to the range people always ask if they can shoot it or try to talk me into selling it.

[Mechamaniac]

If I want a polymer frame gun, I would sooner go for an H&K SOCOM.  IMHO, it has all the good points of the Glock, but a few added functions as well that really give it the edge.

I'm not a big fan of the H&K MK23, IMO it's really just too big for what it is.

I admit I've only fired a single magazine through one, but I found the grip too blocky and the gun was just too large and didn't point well at all for me. The beavertail is also too square (H&K should have rounded the corners) and it makes disengaging the safety a little uncomfortable, at least for me. The MK23 would really benefit from a size reduction.

If you really must get an H&K 45 pistol, I'd go with the full size 45 USP. Very reliable, much less bulky and points better than the MK23 as well. I'd recomend the variant without the decock function though if you carry cocked n' locked as I've seen several shooters who do carry cocked n' locked sweep the safety down too far on a speed draw and go into decock, instead of fire. Result = gun don't go bang and you have to waste half a second to let the safety/decock lever go back to fire position and then fire from double action. Seen the same thing happen to shooters of the Taurus PT-92 series autos who carry cocked n' locked as well.

Of course, I still recommend a G21. Points better than any H&K, less muzzle flip due to lower bore axis and with hi-cap mags you get one more round than the MK23/USP.45.

Completely OT, but my R1 Sledge Hammer, season 1 DVD box set just arrived from Amazon.......Yee ha! Can't wait to get home and pop it in the DVD player "Trust me, I know what I'm doing".

Graham

What I really like about the H&K vs the Glock are the everyday features the H&K has that the Glock doesn't.

The slide release on the Glocks is too low profile for my tastes, on the larger caliber Glocks, it is damn near painful to hit the thing and drop the slide.

The magazine release is spartan as all hell.

There's no hammer, and no decocker.

The H&K on the other hand has very nice functionality on all of the aforementioned areas. Like I said, Glocks are great for cops (especially the morons they hire in Baltimore City who barely know which end to point at the drug dealers when they rob them) and for basic point & shoot applications.

I really just don't like how spartan they are, I prefer to be able to cock a hammer now and again, and drop the slide without tearing off the tip of my thumb. (again, this is really only on the big bore models, the wimpy 9MM Glock 17 and 19 etc are easy) I also like that the H&K is nearly ambidextrous, it could be easily made left handed by anyone with even novice level of gunsmithing skill. I used to work in a gun store, and I used to show everyone who looked at the Glocks a USP pistol, and they almost always changed their mind when they saw how much more user friendly the USP was.

But hey, it could be worse, you could buy the Smith & Wesson Sigma series, what POS's those things are!!

Edited July 29, 2004 by Mechamaniac

[JsARCLIGHT]

Speaking as someone who has shot many a SOCOM Mk23... trust me... you want the Glock, or at least the USP.

The Mk23 is a good gun, don't get me wrong, but the thing is mammoth. Earlier you said you disliked the size and feel of the DEP yet you like the Mk23? They are almost alike in size and space layout of features. I have to use two hands to operate the Mk23 because everything is so far apart... yet I can single hand a DEP easily. Let's also not forget that it would be cheaper to buy a DEP than a Mk23... average sale price on those puppies is about $1,750... in my book that better get you two or three guns or a used car. There is a reason H&K made the USP... because the Mk23 was too big, too awkward and waaaaaay too expensive for what it did. I would agree that a tricked out USP will give a Glock a run for it's money but most of the "features" on the USP are not all that usefull in the everyday shooting world. Like a hammer and decocker... sure it is fun to decock your pistol or manually cock the hammer, but unless you are a cop and need to be carrying a "safe" chambered pistol the features are just fluff in the end.

Speaking as a Glock enthusiast, you can add one or two parts to a factory or C type glock and get the same performance as a Mk23 at a third of the cost, My G21 has the extended slide release and ambi mag release put on it as well as the fully adjustable tritium sights and a threaded barrel (which has a simple flashhider on it... mostly for looks). Whole thing is very accurate, light, easy to one-hand and cost under $600. Sure it may not win any beauty contests but it's the dependability factor that comes into play with the Glocks for me. My other pistol of choice is the Sig Sauer 220 American. Same features and size as your USP, just a tad different. Sometimes you can get a 220 for less than a USP if you want to go that route.

[Mechamaniac]

I should clarify....

I don't mean the SOCOM specifically, I know those are BIG bucks. I was really railing against the lack of features on the Glock vs. the USP. I really prefer the USP, but then again, the last time I dealt with these was in 94 / 95 when I worked at the gun store.

Back then, there were no upgrade parts available for Glocks, and I am intrigued by what you mentioned. Especially since the same store had a used Glock 21 in great shape for $549.

Please elaborate on Glock upgrades, and if you have pics of your lil gem, put em up!

[Chowser]

The slide release on the Glocks is too low profile for my tastes, on the larger caliber Glocks, it is damn near painful to hit the thing and drop the slide.

I bought a Glock 19 years ago, here's a pic. It has Mepro Light night sights, an extended slide release, and that's all I did to it. I was going to get rid of this, but I can't sell it because I bought all my hi-cap mags with a letter from my Chief that says I will not sell the mags, so I'm basically stuck with this gun, so it's become my home defense/plinking gun.

Oh, all my Glocks had Hogue grips on them because I cannot stand the normal Glock grip.

I just sold two of my Glocks (the 33s) to co-workers so I can buy the HK P2000SK when it comes out later this year.

I prefer my HK USP Compact over the Glock, but I lost the vote when we were switching away from our POS S&W 4046s and switched to the Glock 22.

I actually put an extended release on my duty weapon. But, we train everyone not to use that to drop the slide. We have people rack the slide during reload. It's something about losing fine motor skills when under pressure and racking the slide is a gross motor skill. Then again, pushing the mag release is a fine motor skill. So that throws that out the window, but that's how we currently train.

Edited July 29, 2004 by Chowser

[Chowser]

Sorry G, but we'll have to agree to disagree.  While I love the Glocks for their simplicity, and awesome functionality, they are about as aesthetically pleasing as a trash can lid.

ahaha, one of my Sgt.s said something similar when we were transitioning to the Glocks, he said, "It's like looking over the side of a garbage can."

I will say this, we've had less problems and better groupings when we switched to the Glocks. And the Glock is by far the easiest gun I've had to maintain, with the HK USPs coming in next. The S&W 4046s sucked, it had so many little parts to lose.

Here's my old duty gun (just got issued a 23).

It's the Glock 22 with M3X tac light, lasermax, extended slide stop, and a +2 baseplate (for 17+1 capacity).

Edited August 2, 2004 by Chowser

[JsARCLIGHT]

Please elaborate on Glock upgrades, and if you have pics of your lil gem, put em up!

I'm at work right now but I can take a shot of my G21 when I get home. In the meantime, I buy all my accessories at Top Glock. They carry everything from simple replacement parts and mags to sights, grips, lights, lasers, holsters and other manner of Glock swag like the field knives and entrenching tools. They will even do all the gunsmithing for you if you send in your receiver or slide. The prices are common for mod items but they have a few of what they call "reliability" upgrade packages that turn a normal glock into a typewriter for about $150+/- depending on the model.

My particular pistol has a KKM threaded barrel with a phantom flash hider on it, the "defender package" that came with a lot of nice parts, the backstrap plug and the ambi magazine release button kit(I did not get that one from Top Glock, can't really remember were I got it actually but it was on the internet).