The MW Automotive Thread

[leeden]

I met this guy once. He said the truck driver that rear ended him was young and inexperienced. He was also lucky that his WRX was sitting slightly to the side so he didn't go under the trailer in front. There's a whole long thread about it on the Subaru boards.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread...highlight=wreck

[Lightning]

I've considered auto-Xing with my car, but chickened out--reasoning that if I do it, it will be with a car dedicated to that purpose; if for no other reason than the very nature of competitive driving (auto-X, drifting, whatever) just beats the ever-loving s--t out of a car.  I wouldn't think of doing it in a car I want to drive regularly on public roads.

Myself and I lot of people I race with autocross their daily drivers, and it's actually pretty common. Usually the autocross cars that get trailered in are the ones that are in a class like Street Mod, and are no longer street legal.

Lightning06, why'd you pick the LeBaron as a base for a race car? I don't mean that in a negative way, just curious.

simplest reason: it's the only car I own for now, so I know it's weak points in the suspension, and I have the part numbers to fix them, plus I have the part numbers to make it a 4-speed. As far as I know, none of the early ('77-'80) M-body 4-doors were offered with a 4-speed. Now all I need to do is save the money for the stick conversion, and to find a beater (hopefully a AE86 if I'm lucky) to drive while I'm fixing my car.

[reddsun1]

When you get that racing bug, anything will do as long as it gets you on track, right? There are some relatively new regional racing series that are geared towards American built sedans. Heck, it could definitely set a trend. The Europeans and Aussies are years ahead of us on "Touring Car" racing...How much does that car weigh in at? There's bound to be an SCCA class this car would find a home in. NASA has an "American Iron" class that a LeBaron would be sure to garner attention in. If my friend and I ever get our project off the ground, that's where we plan to race his old Ford.

[Lightning]

well, of all the places I've checked, it says that the car weighs 3,500 pounds, and that American Iron series is for 2-doors only...so there goes that Idea, that's kinda why I'm wanting to do Autocrossing and Drifting (drifting just looks so cool, lol). The main problem I'm facing right now is money....

[yellowlightman]

I think the real reason I lost interest in Autocross is that, as my car became more and more heavily modified, it got to the point where it couldn't handle properly the rough pavement or narrow courses too often seen in lot autocross.

Dude, judging from everything you've said you haven't even autocrossed. "Rough" courses? The two SCCA SoloII regions in southern California (Fresno and San Diego) both race at very smooth venues, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As for narrow courses, once again you're showing that you've had no experience autocrossing. Cars much larger than yours that have much more difficulty turning are commonplace. Off the top of my head I can think of a wide-bodied GT350, numerous Camaros, and at least one or two late-60's Mustang fastbacks.

I also fail to see how heavily modified suspension would be a hidnrance racing, as there are plenty of cars that have almost no suspension travel and yet still do fine at the SF region's questionably bumpy courses.

[peter]

Anybody have pictures of their rides at some kind of event? Autocross, drag. track, drift?

[peter]

It started raining half-way through the event.....that's when I got over my fear of driving at speed in the wet.

I couldn't drive faster than 50/km hr after I wrote off my first NSX so my friend recommended I start going to these events, (often with instructors) to get over my fear. It worked.....now I'm just scared to go over 260km/hr

[peter]

Here's an older Posrche Turbo (930?) that I left behind....I was kind of surprised it coudn't pass me, let alone keep up.

The M3 in the foreground is the '94 Europ-spec I was talking about a few pages before. The driver is amazing on the street. We called him Jacky Schumacher (but's he's Chinese) because of his love of Ferraris. Back when we were younger and way more stupid, he was driving the silver NSX (Mine now). A group of us used to race on the highways, the mountain roads etc and he was able to get ahead of some pretty amazing cars (a midley modded C5 Vette for one). He was untouchable on the street, but on the track I took him. Luck? Faster car? Haha, my superior learning curve? Probably the first.

Edited March 17, 2005 by peter

[yellowlightman]

Anybody have pictures of their rides at some kind of event? Autocross, drag. track, drift?

Me at a SFR event at Oakland coliseum last November.

[Commander McBride]

I think the real reason I lost interest in Autocross is that, as my car became more and more heavily modified, it got to the point where it couldn't handle properly the rough pavement or narrow courses too often seen in lot autocross.

Dude, judging from everything you've said you haven't even autocrossed. "Rough" courses? The two SCCA SoloII regions in southern California (Fresno and San Diego) both race at very smooth venues, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As for narrow courses, once again you're showing that you've had no experience autocrossing. Cars much larger than yours that have much more difficulty turning are commonplace. Off the top of my head I can think of a wide-bodied GT350, numerous Camaros, and at least one or two late-60's Mustang fastbacks.

I also fail to see how heavily modified suspension would be a hidnrance racing, as there are plenty of cars that have almost no suspension travel and yet still do fine at the SF region's questionably bumpy courses.

You'd have to drive my car to understand. The handling of the car is pretty insane as at is, it's very difficult to keep it under control on even relatively smooth surfaces. I can't understand why my car is the way it is, and I've seen identical ones run, but my grip limits are razor sharp. There's hardly any margin of error, understeer and oversteer are always very close. The car also has a very strong tendency to understeer, then snap into over very quickly. My car always feels like it's skating on ice, even on brand new Azenis. That's a large part of why I put the wing on the car, in the hopes that it'll improve the stablilty of the car at speed.

It is true, I haven't been to any of the SCCA events, only to sort of "open track" car club type events. Maybe the setup is sufficiently different that it'll be better at an SCCA event.

[Panzer]

why did you buy an NSX if you're scared to drive fast...?

[peter]

why did you buy an NSX if you're scared to drive fast...?

Well, until I crashed my first one, I wasn't:

[peter]

Anybody have pictures of their rides at some kind of event?  Autocross, drag. track, drift?

Me at a SFR event at Oakland coliseum last November.

I love RX-7s.

[Lightning]

Anybody have pictures of their rides at some kind of event?  Autocross, drag. track, drift?

Me at a SFR event at Oakland coliseum last November.

I love RX-7s.

that generation of RX-7's I love the most.

[Panzer]

aw c'mon. the last ones where sweet. they look alien or something.

(NOT the RX-8's)

[reddsun1]

I think the real reason I lost interest in Autocross is that, as my car became more and more heavily modified, it got to the point where it couldn't handle properly the rough pavement or narrow courses too often seen in lot autocross.

Dude, judging from everything you've said you haven't even autocrossed. "Rough" courses? The two SCCA SoloII regions in southern California (Fresno and San Diego) both race at very smooth venues, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As for narrow courses, once again you're showing that you've had no experience autocrossing. Cars much larger than yours that have much more difficulty turning are commonplace. Off the top of my head I can think of a wide-bodied GT350, numerous Camaros, and at least one or two late-60's Mustang fastbacks.

I also fail to see how heavily modified suspension would be a hidnrance racing, as there are plenty of cars that have almost no suspension travel and yet still do fine at the SF region's questionably bumpy courses.

You'd have to drive my car to understand. The handling of the car is pretty insane as at is, it's very difficult to keep it under control on even relatively smooth surfaces. I can't understand why my car is the way it is, and I've seen identical ones run, but my grip limits are razor sharp. There's hardly any margin of error, understeer and oversteer are always very close. The car also has a very strong tendency to understeer, then snap into over very quickly. My car always feels like it's skating on ice, even on brand new Azenis. That's a large part of why I put the wing on the car, in the hopes that it'll improve the stablilty of the car at speed.

It is true, I haven't been to any of the SCCA events, only to sort of "open track" car club type events. Maybe the setup is sufficiently different that it'll be better at an SCCA event.

Man, that car sounds like it's just plain ee-vil. There could be a number of factors at play, but you shouldn't settle for that as "just how it is." That puppy could really catch you out in a bad way like that. There's a handbook on handling dynamics by Carrol Smith that addresses stuff like that; breaks it down in two sections--effects listed first with possible causes, and causes listed first w/possible effects. Costs about $15, and it could help you. Could be anything from excessive front toe-in, insufficient front shock bump, not enough rear suspension travel, etc. That handbook might help w/ideas of what to adjust/change.

I'm a fan of the last-gen RX-7s too. The RX-8s a much homlier replacement, IMO.

[Lightning]

that's the problem, they are too rounded...

[yellowlightman]

aw c'mon. the last ones where sweet. they look alien or something.

2nd gens (like mine, 1986-1991) have the benefit of having N/A versions, which while slower are much more reliable.

If I had the money right now I'd be putting a Chevy LS1 into the car, but I can't right now so it stays as it is. Great, cheap cars, just not very competitive at autocross because they get put in the same class as Miata's. Ends up with me getting beat-up by the Miata's, and me beating up the MR2s.

[GENERIC RAGE]

I think the real reason I lost interest in Autocross is that, as my car became more and more heavily modified, it got to the point where it couldn't handle properly the rough pavement or narrow courses too often seen in lot autocross.

Dude, judging from everything you've said you haven't even autocrossed. "Rough" courses? The two SCCA SoloII regions in southern California (Fresno and San Diego) both race at very smooth venues, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As for narrow courses, once again you're showing that you've had no experience autocrossing. Cars much larger than yours that have much more difficulty turning are commonplace. Off the top of my head I can think of a wide-bodied GT350, numerous Camaros, and at least one or two late-60's Mustang fastbacks.

I also fail to see how heavily modified suspension would be a hidnrance racing, as there are plenty of cars that have almost no suspension travel and yet still do fine at the SF region's questionably bumpy courses.

You'd have to drive my car to understand. The handling of the car is pretty insane as at is, it's very difficult to keep it under control on even relatively smooth surfaces. I can't understand why my car is the way it is, and I've seen identical ones run, but my grip limits are razor sharp. There's hardly any margin of error, understeer and oversteer are always very close. The car also has a very strong tendency to understeer, then snap into over very quickly. My car always feels like it's skating on ice, even on brand new Azenis. That's a large part of why I put the wing on the car, in the hopes that it'll improve the stablilty of the car at speed.

It is true, I haven't been to any of the SCCA events, only to sort of "open track" car club type events. Maybe the setup is sufficiently different that it'll be better at an SCCA event.

Post pictures of this wild stalion, I think I can diagnos it from a billion miles away (I'm on Mars--the furthest I could get from ASSCLOWNS).

What it sounds like is you slammed the car and you are running out of suspension travel, so either you are bottoming out on your bumpstops in the rear (snap oversteer) or in the front (wicked push.)

Let me guess--the car MAD pushes if you enter a corner just a *little* too hot? And I bet the rear end gets all squirrely as soon as you lift off mid-corner or maybe hit some rough pavement.

Sounds like a-hole suspension setup, 101.

OR! And this is very possible--its that you've setup a car way too stiff for your tires. As any ROAD RACER should know, your suspension is only as good as your tires, and super-ultra-stiff suspensions only really work well with r-compound and slick tires. With any sort of street-compound tire, you need lots and lots of negative camber with traditional strut-type suspensions to make use of the limited amounts of grip. Only with ultra-sticky race tires can you start to use huge spring rates and creative damping. It sounds like you are probably running street-tires with a super-tight suspension. No wonder its hard to drive. Your road racing friends haven't told you that that stuff doesn't work?

Just to drive a beaten point home: What you are doing is *NOT* ROAD RACING. YOU ARE NOT A ROAD RACER. You have done a NON COMPETITIVE TRACK DAY. There were *NO* timers. Passing was *NOT* allowed during corners. That is NOT RACING.

And as requested, track-like pictures.

Unfortunately, this is only a TRACK DAY, I'm not ROAD RACING

Through the esses--about 90mph in the wet. That's 30mph above the safe-autocrosser speed

Took first in class that day.

[Commander McBride]

Actually, no, the car was at stock ride height for quite a while, with relatively unagressive suspension settings. It's low now, but not much handling change.

I think the subframe must be bent or something, that's all I can think of. Anyway, all I know is that the car works incredibly well for drifting and absolutely horrible for anything else.

Tires weren't perfect, but they weren't cheap ones either. Was running Azenis Sports on my 15", then ST115s and ES100s on my 17"s.

Honestly, I'd love to get rid of this car and build one from the gound up, but I just can't afford to. I've put so much into this car that I'd be taking a huge loss to start over.

[Hikuro]

Wha do you get when a Nissan Murano and a Honda Civic have an affair?

[peter]

Wow, sponsorship from the Tire Rack...must be nice to get free/cheap tires.

[Lightning]

I'll agree with that one...

[yellowlightman]

Wow, sponsorship from the Tire Rack...must be nice to get free/cheap tires.

All cars participating in the SCCA SoloII National Tour have to wear Tire Rack banners, as they sponsor the series; it's not a personal sponsor.

[reddsun1]

well, of all the places I've checked, it says that the car weighs 3,500 pounds, and that American Iron series is for 2-doors only...so there goes that Idea, that's kinda why I'm wanting to do Autocrossing and Drifting (drifting just looks so cool, lol). The main problem I'm facing right now is money....

Dude, it's all good. You probably could run that LeBaron in that series, if you wanted to do full competition with it. You could always contact the series tech people and ask. If you're gonna race it, hell, strip that sucker down to the bare shell, put in a cage and go full boogie with it!

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/American-Iron-rules.pdf

"Eligible Manufacturers/Models/Configurations

a)all 1960 through present, American made sedan vehicles certified by the United States Dept of Transportation for street use at their date of manufacture..."

guess it depends on how they interpret "sedan"...

Probably would be at a distinct disadvantage in Auto-X. But if you keep the skinny rear wheels and doughnut rubber, you'd be an absolute drift king! that platform should be good for many a lurid "80s TV cop show" slide.

[areaseven]

Holy sh*t! After some rather disappointing races early this year, the excitement finally picks up in NASCAR at Atlanta Motor Speedway today:

- Jeff Gordon gets caught in a multi-car pileup on lap 1.

- Carl Edwards beats Jimmie Johnson by a nose-length on the final lap and backflips his way to victory lane.

I may be an Earnhardt fan for life, but this year, I'm rooting for Roush Racing all the way.

[Lightning]

Holy sh*t! After some rather disappointing races early this year, the excitement finally picks up in NASCAR at Atlanta Motor Speedway today:

- Jeff Gordon gets caught in a multi-car pileup on lap 1.

- Carl Edwards beats Jimmie Johnson by a nose-length on the final lap and backflips his way to victory lane.

I may be an Earnhardt fan for life, but this year, I'm rooting for Roush Racing all the way.

Of course something great is happening, just lookit Gordon! lol.

anybody seen the trailer for the new Herbie movie yet? I'm not really a fan of bodykits, but that one they have him ending up with looks pretty good on that Bug.

[Lightning]

well, of all the places I've checked, it says that the car weighs 3,500 pounds, and that American Iron series is for 2-doors only...so there goes that Idea, that's kinda why I'm wanting to do Autocrossing and Drifting (drifting just looks so cool, lol). The main problem I'm facing right now is money....

Dude, it's all good. You probably could run that LeBaron in that series, if you wanted to do full competition with it. You could always contact the series tech people and ask. If you're gonna race it, hell, strip that sucker down to the bare shell, put in a cage and go full boogie with it!

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/American-Iron-rules.pdf

"Eligible Manufacturers/Models/Configurations

a)all 1960 through present, American made sedan vehicles certified by the United States Dept of Transportation for street use at their date of manufacture..."

guess it depends on how they interpret "sedan"...

Probably would be at a distinct disadvantage in Auto-X. But if you keep the skinny rear wheels and doughnut rubber, you'd be an absolute drift king! that platform should be good for many a lurid "80s TV cop show" slide.

more to drifting than just slapping used tires on the back and just going for it....the car has to handle first, then you work on breaking the rear loose, not the other way around, and I want to do that without needing to stomp on the gas in the middle of the corner like now.

[peter]

http://media2.big-boys.com/racedrift.wmv

Doesn't look easy.

Edited March 21, 2005 by peter

[Lightning]

well, change of plans for the LeBaron, drivetrain-wise: I'm not going to put a small block in the car, instead I'm going to go for a 440 Six Pack, but I'm still debating on keeping it an auto or going for the 4-speed. I'm still going to try to go autocrossing or drifting with it, I'll just have more torque to play with!

[reddsun1]

http://media2.big-boys.com/racedrift.wmv

Doesn't look easy.

I'd love a better look at the footwork that guy is putting into producing that run. I'll admit you've got to give anybody mad props when they can throw the rear out past the "limits" of adhesion and manage to keep it there w/out cracking it up, especially w/in 3-4ft of another car. So what kind of compounds are used for drifting? I'd imagine it's got to be a pretty hard compound; how do they avoid blistering the be-jeezus out of the tires? Do they begin their runs on cold tires? Heat cycle them before a drift run? Do they customarily run shaved DOTs or slicks (I'm guessing a resounding NO to slicks, lest they chunk and blister the treads)?

[Lightning]

http://media2.big-boys.com/racedrift.wmv

Doesn't look easy.

I'd love a better look at the footwork that guy is putting into producing that run. I'll admit you've got to give anybody mad props when they can throw the rear out past the "limits" of adhesion and manage to keep it there w/out cracking it up, especially w/in 3-4ft of another car. So what kind of compounds are used for drifting? I'd imagine it's got to be a pretty hard compound; how do they avoid blistering the be-jeezus out of the tires? Do they begin their runs on cold tires? Heat cycle them before a drift run? Do they customarily run shaved DOTs or slicks (I'm guessing a resounding NO to slicks, lest they chunk and blister the treads)?

just like with usual race runs or track days, they heat the tires up by going slowly faster. As far as the slicks vs treaded tires go, they usually run R-compound treaded tires, but they get kinda close to slicks. Typically on a D1 Grand Prix day they go through a TON of tires, for the US D1 series, Rhys Millen with his GTO went through 16 sets of rear tires either in a day or a two-day event.

[Commander McBride]

Actually, some drivers do run slicks, but only up front, for the most part. However, one driver with a very powerful car, his name escapes me ATM, runs rear slicks. Chunking is a major problem, but there are vast difference between brands and specific tire models, and drifters have figured out what's good, and what isn't. An interesting thing about drift is that you can tell a good tire by the smell of the smoke. My Falkens, and to a lesser extent, Yokohamas, smell pretty good (comparitively) when they're burning off the car. Cheap tires, on the other hand, are pretty nasty, rangine from relatively neutral Bridgestones to horrible smelling brands like Futura or some of the Chinese / Korean brands.

Sidewall stiffness and progressive slip characteristics are the most important factors in tire choice, along with overall tire grip. One thing to remember is that, at competition levels, the tires are pretty much garbage after a few runs. Blistering and such really aren't major issues, as the tires aren't expected to be used very long.

[Lightning]

well....looks like he didnt insert his foot this time. So, do you have the Drift Bible DVD?

[reddsun1]

http://media2.big-boys.com/racedrift.wmv

Doesn't look easy.

I'd love a better look at the footwork that guy is putting into producing that run. I'll admit you've got to give anybody mad props when they can throw the rear out past the "limits" of adhesion and manage to keep it there w/out cracking it up, especially w/in 3-4ft of another car. So what kind of compounds are used for drifting? I'd imagine it's got to be a pretty hard compound; how do they avoid blistering the be-jeezus out of the tires? Do they begin their runs on cold tires? Heat cycle them before a drift run? Do they customarily run shaved DOTs or slicks (I'm guessing a resounding NO to slicks, lest they chunk and blister the treads)?

just like with usual race runs or track days, they heat the tires up by going slowly faster. As far as the slicks vs treaded tires go, they usually run R-compound treaded tires, but they get kinda close to slicks. Typically on a D1 Grand Prix day they go through a TON of tires, for the US D1 series, Rhys Millen with his GTO went through 16 sets of rear tires either in a day or a two-day event.

Yeah, 'bout 1 1/2 yrs ago, I tried to convince my fmr boss that this "drifting" thing might catch on with the SCCA, and he ought to try to get in on the ground floor, since a tire seller ought to be in good stead, given the excessively high demand on tires. Being an old school racer, and prone to some of that "open wheel" snobbery I mentioned before, he kind of scoffed at the idea, thinking drifting wasn't worth the effort or time. Well, they say hindsight is 20/20, and I bet he'd reconsider about now, considering how fickle the motorsport market can be, may he rest in peace.

Any tire mfr. with foresight ought to be scrambling to obtain the rights to be "official tire" of the burgeoning drifting championships here in the US. The very nature of the sport guarantees a higher than usual demand for tires at any given race event, compared to "normal" road racing, auto-X, whatever. Oh well, hear me now, listen to me later....