MZero Ep. 5 *SPOILER THREAD*

[Prime]

Move onto M7 and Zero.  They take things that were once based on real things like emotions and music, and turns them to some extent into super powers.

It is emotion and and it only seems like magic, thanks to technology.

Just so I can try and get my head around things, what was the technology that allowed Sara to move rocks? Was it because of the earlier alterations of her ancesters by the Protoculture? Did she not, in a sense, have super powers that most other humans did not possess? Didn't Basara have similar fantastic powers that most others did not possess?

And I found that the story was good enough to hold my suspension of disbelief enough for me to accept the "magical" parts, even if I didn't enjoy those elements as much.

"Any sufficient advance in technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Arthur C. Clark's 3rd Law.

Which is what I have said several times before, and this why I put the word "magical" in quotes.

*sigh* I seem to be saying the same things repeatedly.

Edited December 5, 2004 by Prime

[azrael]

Just so I can try and get my head around things, what was the technology that allowed Sara to move rocks? Was it because of the earlier alterations of her ancesters by the Protoculture? Did she not, in a sense, have super powers that most other humans did not possess? Didn't Basara have similar fantastic powers that most others did not possess?

...

Which is what I have said several times before, and this why I put the word "magical" in quotes.

*sigh* I seem to be saying the same things repeatedly.

Alterations? It's possible. Her bloodline does play a point as to why she is the priestess of the island. Who knows what Protoculture did to her ancestors. And Basara didn't have powers. He had none. All of the effects you saw in M7 from Basara were from the Sound Energy System. And that system just reflected his emotions. There was no magic, just advanced technology at work.

Sorry, I stop reading this thread after page....20-something.

[KingNor]

FAR too many shows have taken that route lately (Evangelion, Gasaraki, Orgun, etc.) where the hero is special and/or supernatural in some manner, and I truely despise that.

Umm.....do you watch much anime? Amuro seemed pretty "special." What about the crew from Gatchaman? And this isn't even something confined to anime, either. I could form some kind of argument that would cite Joseph Campbell, but the only way you would buy it would be if it came from the Robotech.com Encyclopedia.

persicely why i liked Macross before it adopted the usual anime quirk of having a "special" person needed to tell the story. in SDF there were NO super humans/ special people, they were ALL normal humans, no extra nothing. just them and their willingness (or lack there of) to fight.

as for Campbell, hes a pretentious arse... read Vogler, he builds on Campbells ideas, uses examples that might make sence to someone who doesn't study abstract tribal storys and actually presents the information in a way that is useable.

Edited December 5, 2004 by KingNor

[Keith]

OK. Then what was the mechanism that allowed her float rocks and the like? Is it just the way the universe works?

The mechanism was "Sara." Whether she realized she had the ability or not, her power extended to the point of being able to levitate objects.

Point taken. But the guy just annoys the hell out of me with the whole "you will listen to my song" thing. Over and over and over again. Also, I just hate all of his songs.

Basara isn't doing anything different than any military pilot in that sense, and hell, he even has the curtiousy to announce that he's going to be singing. "Listen to my song" is a far better proposition than "pop, you're dead." Liking the music is another matter entirely though, and all things considered, it isn't about whether you like the songs or not, just that his audience feels the passion he puts into it.

It has been a long time since I watched the series, but they all sounded more or less the same to me. And again, I didn't like any of them because I found them too J-pop for my liking. What can I say, I won't listen to Basara's song.

See above. With the addition that every Macross series has had a different musical style. The musical style used for each show however doesn't have anything to do with the story being told.

I understand very well that the playing of the instruments isn't what controls the Valkyries. It doesn't change the fact that I find shots like a guy drumming as a fighter canopy lowers silly. And even if there are only three of them, there are featured prominantly, and so I find I am laughing at such things constantly throughout the show. What can I say, it just strikes me as funny.

That wasn't a guy, that was Veffidas. All things considered, she had nothing to do with piloting the VF-17 Kai, she just liked to drum. Fundimentally though, using a guitar for a control stick is no funnier than using a stick for a control stick, it just so happens that one is an accepted norm, and the other is not. If in our culture we used pinapple shaped control mechanisms, that would make using sticks appear funny as well. Think outisde the box.

Yeah, I think that looks ridiculous too. I don't like every little thing in Zero either.

What I'm gathering from most of your arguments, is that you're just not open to anything more than straight mlitary hardware. Problem is, Macross has never been about that.

QUOTE (Keith @ Dec 4 2004, 01:43 AM)

Now that is just silly, the Pink Pecker team was awesome. Hell, anyone who can rank up as an elite team while flying pink VF-11's is alright with me. Besides which, they weren't even a prominent group, literally only shown for seconds in "1" flashback.

I was just using it as an example of things in the series that cause me to "LOL."

Ah, like 3 alien spies eargly anticipating steaing a singing dancing doll? Like hacking into the system of a computer generated performance to get a little personal attention? Macross has always had more than its share of parody, 7 no more or less than the original series.

Then that could be said about any opinions then. I just didn't find a lot of the details in Zero funny whereas I did with M7. For whatever reason, Zero was done in such a way that I enjoyed the story more and it held my suspention of disbelieve. They may have a lot in common, but I found the presentations to be different enough for me to like one over the other.

Zero was also a far more condensed story, without room for more parody (although the villagers were the main source). I just think you're judging 7 unfairly in the face of its position in the larger picture.

The things I don't like in M7 are not in Zero. There are no Valkyries with musical instrument-like controls.

No, but there is the AFOS, with its song based controls.

There are no characters who are constantly singing J-pop songs.

Out of curiosity, whats your position on Macross TV's J-pop songs.

There is no one constantly demanding that people listen to their song.

But there is a constant demanding that the military get their war & technology away from Maya, as well as constant warnings of bad Kadun.

There are no giant speaker-like Valkyrie contraptions.

If they had the technology in that Macross era....

There are no shots of drummers playing while the cockpit canopy lowers, and so on. The absense of these things are some of the reasons why I like Zero and don't like M7.

All very superciial reasons, which have little to do with the story being told in either.

QUOTE (Keith @ Dec 4 2004, 01:43 AM)

And even then, if it were a simple matter of dislike, that would be one thing, but when you go to the lengths of making fun of 7 despite all the similarities with Zero, that's where it gets confusing.

Well, I do want to state my opinions like everyone around here, and I do like to tease people. But hopefully you will see that I do not attack people (at least I try not to) for liking M7 or other things I personally don't like. I accept that others love the show and I respect that, and I do not intend to attack them personally for that. But that isn't going to prevent me from expressing my views on things.

And I accept that others do not, but in any circumstance where there is a discussion with conflicting opinion, don't expect those with the opinion opposite of yours not to respond in kind. There's nothing personasl in a debate, as everyone should know the difference between themselves & their opinions.

I mean, hell, I like the Star Wars prequels. I deal a lot with people nitpicking the stuff I like.

Like "hey, why didn't any of those Jedi trainee kids rise up & take on Vader."

I don`t guys but M0 should have been based on Macross ship study or research and the VF-1X development, believe me I wouldn`t mind if M0 was based on that memory episode from the TV series and even if it didn`t had transforming VF`s .

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My take on how people can hate M7 and love M0 is simply that Kawamori directed Zero, while someone else directed 7 (I forget his name), and both directors had a very different style of directing. Sure the themes of the two shows are the same, and they share some of the same elements when it comes to the energy of the human spirit and whatnot, but they're portrayed in a very different style from one show to the other.

An interesting theory, but then Kawamori didn't direct the original series either. It could be said that those very same people don't like Kawamori's directing at all...

It seems to me that many people dislike the directing style of M7, and not neccessarily the story or the premise. How a story is presented is just as important as to how good the story itself is. Final Fantasy the Spirits Within has a fantastic story premise, and one that is very similar in tone and storytelling to those of the Final Fantasy games, however it was handed over to an incompetant screenplay writer and director, both of whom shared fault in butchering what could have been a great movie.

I'd take a nod against the directing style not so much to be the aspects being addressed in this dicussion, but more directly the story layout & execution in regards to sceme cuts & acting choices. I don't think directing is the issue at all, especially when the aspects in question are aspects approved by Kawamori & Nue in all series.

Now, I'm not going to say that the directing style in M7 is bad, that is entirely based on the opinion of the viewer, however what I am trying to say is that it is different from the directing style shown in Zero. Different enough that those who despised Macross 7 and curse it's existance could come into Zero, see a lot of the same themes and elements in a similar context, but presented in a different way, and absolutely love the show.

Grok?

I honestly think it has more to do with people expecting to see the same thing each time in general. It's my opinion that Kawamori & Nue have the very rare ability to maintain a tight story canon & continuity, while bringing a fresh new outlook to each series on every outting. Those expecting to see the same style setting each time are naturally going to be dissapointed when the story is continued in a new setting. Those who go in just for the story (I think) will be more welcoming of the changed setting each series takes place in.

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No it isn't. I can like Zero and hate M7. I mentioned earlier that it isn't really the concepts in M7 that I don't like. It is the implementation. I can like Zero because I think the more fantastic elements fit in pretty well with the context of the story, and like the visuals and so on.

That to me says that you find it ok for these things to occur on a tribal island, but not on a colony fleet in space...

keith i agree with you here and i'd like to add something to it.

there are alot of themes shared by m0 and m7, both are presented in diffrent ways. like RADD said, the presentation is just as important.

In that way, those people are bound to be always dissapointed to a degree, as I don't expect Kawamori & Nue to present things as they were presented in the original TV series in exactly that way again. Just as I don't expect they'll present them as they were in 7 exactly that way again. That's part of the beauty of the franchise.

In SDF i do beleive the story was about the strentgh of the human will/heart. but it was manifested through the humans physical willingness to do something about their situation. Minmay was like a representation of their will, and in the story also a psycological distraction (see: weapon) against the enemy.

Actually, it wasn't a psychological distraction at all. While there's no denying that her singing "was" used in that way during the fight with Bodolza, the fact of the matter is that her singing during that battle wasn't what won the battle. Minmay's effect was made much sooner. When the combination of the emotions in her singing, as well as experiencing life inside the ship was spread to Warera, Loli, & Konda, they took that back with them & shared it with their shipmates, who shared it with others, who so on & so forth. This spread all the way through the Britai Adoclas fleet, forcing Britai to either submit his fleet for termination to Bodolza, or ride the new wave of "culture" spreading, & fight alongside the Macross. Minmay changed the tide of the war not with psychological warfare, but by sharing her emotions with others, who continued to do so.

That's the theme many seem to miss. If not for that aspect, everyone on the Macross would have died with those on Earth, and the story would have ended there. I blame Robotech in a large part for the misconception, as that was one of its major failings.

the overall theme of SDF to me was "bring togeather, don't destroy" but the means to that end was bloody.

You're forgetting the also present theme of "even if you must fight, still strive for a way to prevent fighting." You'll recall Milia's insistence that Max not kill the Zentradi pilots, and once seeing this, Hikaru followed suit. That didn't strike you as moving that an ace pilot would curb his killing skill to more gently subdue his enemy? Besides which, all that you mentioned above, and what I just mentioned here, are still present themes in 7. Basara doesn't stop anyone from protecting people with their military hardware, he just tries to end the necessity to fight in general.

Mzero and M7 have the same things going on in them, but instead of minmay's singing simply being a way to bring out unfound emotions in the zentradi, music is used as a more tangible.. recogniseable.. and reliable type of weapon.

Music is never used as a weapon in Macross, save for Sharon Apple.

in SDF music was used to SUPPORT the main fighting force and give them an edge.

M7, and to a lesser extent, Mzero seem to want to use music INSTEAD of a main fighting force. in that the music itself could single handedly decide the outcome of a conflict.

Again, 7 & Zero do nothing different in this regard than the original series did. While I agree that it wasn't as pronunced in the original series, these very same aspects were there. The nice thing about the original series being, that it left itself wide open for these things to be fleshed out more in depth (as they eventually were). What 7 showed was what had been strived at in every Macross series before it, a fully functional way for Music to prevent war.

I feel this diffrence is where SDF is set apart from the rest of the franchise.

SDF = one person with a song can make a diffrence

Macross franchise since = one person with a song is the most powerful of all.

this is the break for me. i don't like the idea that the rest of humanity kinda, falls off into the background i guess.

The differences you see are misconcieved. Humanity never fell off into the background. That's like saying humanity fell off into the background in the face of Hikaru Or Isamu's existence. Naturally there will always be central characters.

--------------------

That brings up a very good point. In SDF Macross, it was a military show in the sense that the crew, the pilots, and the civilians were are regular people thrown into extraordinary situations. And yet they somehow manage to survive and even win the fights.

I dissagree. I don't feel Macross was every a "military" show, it's always been a love story.

Now fast-forward to Macross 7, where it's not regular people. Now they've introduced the concept of Spirita and how only some "special" people can use it to fight and win, while everyone else is just fodder. FAR too many shows have taken that route lately (Evangelion, Gasaraki, Orgun, etc.) where the hero is special and/or supernatural in some manner, and I truely despise that.

I believe someone already commented on the special abilities of central characters, and how its been a large theme in fiction in general (anime being no different) since the beginning of storytelling. Greek Mythology to Tall Tales, special powers just make for interesting stories. Besides, Ace pilots would fall into that catagory as well.

Now skip further ahead to Macross Zero, where it's obvious that Sara is a very "special" person with abilities and powers that far outstrip any of the other humans, with the possible exception of her fellow islanders. That reinforces the idea that regular people aren't good enough for Macross plots anymore.

Except that regular people are still what make all the difference. Regular people like Shin can change the tide of destruction. Regular people like Gamlin saw past their prejudices & helped Basara in his cause. Regular people like the 7 fleet's citizens can motivate Basara to go on, regular people like Isamu can motivate Myung to step outside the restraints she put upon herself. Regular people are never just backdrop in Macross.

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And what's the total effect that Gamlin had in Macross 7? Did he defeat the Protodevlin? Did he save the day in the end? No. It was Basara and his superhuman powers with Spirita that did it.

Basara recognized the need for people like Gamlin, just like Gamlin recognized the need for people like Basara. An important part of that dynamic was the fighting & peace making groups realized how important one was to the other. They stopped trying to out do one another, and combined their efforts, and that's the ful some of both of their effects against the Protodevelin. An important dynamic to 7 was that purely fighting against something, irregardless of the good intentions, will not always insure victory. If an enemy is too strong, then all fighting will result in is going down in flames. Somethimes other means have to be tried, and that's why Basara was necessary.

Same thing with Max. Who did the most good in Macross 7? The regular human pilot/leader or the superhuman guitarist?

Without Max, Basara wouldn't have had the chance to go out into space, into the middle of the conflict, and hone his ability. Without Max, the hardware developement wouldn't have been funded to amplify Basara's natural abilities. Without Max, the decision would have likely been made to continue trying to assualt with Reaction Weapons, resulting in no effect on the Protodevelin, and the fall of the 7 fleet.

Shin was good enough, but did he really do any good in the end of Zero? No. It was Sara, who (through some unexplained way) had "magical" powers of her own. All Shin really did was convince her to stop.

"All he did was convince her to stop." That doesn't seem pivitoly important to you?

Roy was a major character in SDF, which is what I said in my post. It's only in 7 and Zero that I see this trend starting. And in Zero, what did Roy really do in final scheme of things?

Roy game Shin the motivation to follow his feelings.

It's just that to me, regular humans are being eclipsed by these superhuman/magical/spirita-using people in the Macross universe.

No, you're just being cynical.

According to Keith (if I remember correctly), whom I recognize as the most knowledgeable guy around here on the Macrossverse, DYRL Minmay was able to project and manipuate Spirita in much the same way as Basara.

Yes, and no. Minmays effect in DYRL was her exact same effect in the TV series. She reached out with her emotions to others, and swayed them to realize there were better alternatives to fighting. As was in 7, as was in Plus, as was in Zero.

And you're right in that Plus has no mention of these sorts of people, which is probably why that's my favourite Macross of the bunch.

And yet, you couldn't be more wrong. Plus still retains all of these aspects, and flips them in the complete oppiste direction to boot. Not only are the abilities of one persons emotions to sway others addressed, but the main opposition is artificially attempting to do these things (i.e. Sharon Apple).

[KingNor]

i dont' know who started the trend of the "point by point" replys, but am i the only one who finds them minid numbing?? please just put togeather a coherent responce and post it, you don't need to repost the ENTIRE post you're responding to.

anyway what you described here:

Actually, it wasn't a psychological distraction at all. While there's no denying that her singing "was" used in that way during the fight with Bodolza, the fact of the matter is that her singing during that battle wasn't what won the battle. Minmay's effect was made much sooner. When the combination of the emotions in her singing, as well as experiencing life inside the ship was spread to Warera, Loli, & Konda, they took that back with them & shared it with their shipmates, who shared it with others, who so on & so forth. This spread all the way through the Britai Adoclas fleet, forcing Britai to either submit his fleet for termination to Bodolza, or ride the new wave of "culture" spreading, & fight alongside the Macross. Minmay changed the tide of the war not with psychological warfare, but by sharing her emotions with others, who continued to do so.

is psychological warfare!!! they used mental conditioning/reason/whatever to defeat their enemys and not only that, but turn them into allys. thats psychological warfare dude... even if it's unintentional. Earths culture, simply by being exposed to the Zentradi defeated the zentradis will to fight the way they have been.

as for the theme of music in macross... while music is used in all the serise, the role and prominence of the music, not to mention the nature of its effect on people has changed dramaticly since the original serise. even in plus they started showing this "trance" state that music caused. I'll leave it at that. if you can't see how the role of music has evolved in the franchise, and likewise can't grasp how fans of the original might not like the new developments, then i can't continue this part of the discussion with you.

I CAN accept the change, i don't like it but i accept it's changing. you on the other hand seem very intent on proving that nothing is changing and its been that way since the start. so don't accuse other people of being closed minded.

there is NO "spirita" in SDF, none. Accept it.

likewise, someone who is a fan of a pretty well thought out militaristic serise (SDF) has every right to be put off by something like a drumset in a fighter plane, that is NOT a superficial (superciial) thing. again.. if you can't see that, i don't know what to say. insturments and emotion driven vehicles are.. not something SDF had aluded to.

i guess what i'm saying is that most fans of SDF (hardcore sdf fans like me) will never really like the serise after it because they don't mesh well. Kawamori even stated himself he's not making much of an effort to make them mesh.

so for YOUR opinions to carry weight, you're going to have to come to terms with the fact that m7 m0 and to a lesser extent m+ and dyrl DON'T match the original, they have things in them the original didn't AND even if you can loosely justify some stuff as having been forshadowed in the original, IT WASN'T intentional by the creators.

macross is a completely diffrent animal than it was in its SDF days. please stop trying to convince us that extra human music powers, the underwater city, aphos and all this post-SDF stuff was in SDF because it wasn't. SOME of the themes are the same but most are at least somewhat changed, many are comepletely diffrent now.

if you're so open minded, stop trying to mesh everything togeather and accept that they are diffrent, and that not all fans like the changes.

huff huff [/rant rave soapbox]

Edited December 5, 2004 by KingNor

[Prime]

OK. Then what was the mechanism that allowed her float rocks and the like? Is it just the way the universe works?

The mechanism was "Sara." Whether she realized she had the ability or not, her power extended to the point of being able to levitate objects.

What gave her that power?

Point taken. But the guy just annoys the hell out of me with the whole "you will listen to my song" thing. Over and over and over again. Also, I just hate all of his songs.

With the addition that every Macross series has had a different musical style. The musical style used for each show however doesn't have anything to do with the story being told.

But the music is being used to tell the story, and so is a part of the presentation. So it has an affect on how the show as a whole is viewed buy the audience. Since I do not like the jusic, it detracts from the overall experience of the show.

That wasn't a guy, that was Veffidas. All things considered, she had nothing to do with piloting the VF-17 Kai, she just liked to drum. Fundimentally though, using a guitar for a control stick is no funnier than using a stick for a control stick, it just so happens that one is an accepted norm, and the other is not.

I disagree that it is not funnier, since on of the definitions of funny is "beyond or deviating from the usual or expected." Since I find that using said control scheme deviates greatly from the standard norm (even the standard norm in Macross up to that point and for the most part thereafter). Thus I find it funny.

If in our culture we used pinapple shaped control mechanisms, that would make using sticks appear funny as well. Think outisde the box.

But our culture doesn't use pinapple control schemes. If it did, then sure the current control scheme would seem funny. That fact is we don't. In any event, surely you can see why people other than yourself may potentially find it funny.

Yeah, I think that looks ridiculous too. I don't like every little thing in Zero either.

What I'm gathering from most of your arguments, is that you're just not open to anything more than straight mlitary hardware. Problem is, Macross has never been about that.

Actually, I watched Ep5 Zero again last night, and I have to say that the design of the AFOS is growing on me. I do like the tie-ins with the various artifacts found on Maya. And certainly the Protoculture were very different, and so their technology is. That is why I didn't particularly have a problem with the AFOS, even if I found it really strange looking, from the beginning. There was no real precident set (that I have been exposed to anyway) for what Protoculture technology would look and be like.

As for straight military hardware, the first two Macross series I was exposed to were the series and Plus. These contain more or less straight military hardware. And in Zero all human hardware is the same way. M7 is decidely not. And Yes, Macross has never been about the hardware, but apart from M7 that has been the setting and style that the series has been in. And I really like that bout it. M7 deviates from that style quite a bit, and so I like it less so. If Macross had had that style from the beginning, I would have been more open to it.

Zero was also a far more condensed story, without room for more parody (although the villagers were the main source). I just think you're judging 7 unfairly in the face of its position in the larger picture.

I don't think I am being unfair to M7, because I am only judging it on my personal tastes and whether it provides enjoyment to me or not. I am not trying to convince others that they should see it as this or that. And I do judge it as a part of Macross as a whole.

The things I don't like in M7 are not in Zero. There are no Valkyries with musical instrument-like controls.

No, but there is the AFOS, with its song based controls.

And that was alien technology, and the show presented it in such a way as it held my suspension of disbelief, for whatever reason.

There are no characters who are constantly singing J-pop songs.

Out of curiosity, whats your position on Macross TV's J-pop songs.

Well, I do like the original series/DRYL songs more than M7 by quite a bit, but even that isn't necessarily my style of music.

There is no one constantly demanding that people listen to their song.

But there is a constant demanding that the military get their war & technology away from Maya, as well as constant warnings of bad Kadun.

But they aren't nearly so annoying about it.

There are no giant speaker-like Valkyrie contraptions.

If they had the technology in that Macross era....

Indeed. If they did and it was in the original TV series, I would have much less problem with it by the time it showed up in M7.

There are no shots of drummers playing while the cockpit canopy lowers, and so on. The absense of these things are some of the reasons why I like Zero and don't like M7.

All very supercial reasons, which have little to do with the story being told in either.

I don't see how they are superficial at all. They are the means by which the story is told, and so they are part of the overall experience of the show. Even if the story is good, if the elements detract from it in the eyes of the viewer, then the experience will be poorer as a result. I don't just strip away every aspect of the show down to the basic plot and ignore the rest. I look at the show as a whole.

I suspect that people would like the Lord of the Rings movies less if they were done in the style of South Park.

Even if I would like that.

I mean, hell, I like the Star Wars prequels. I deal a lot with people nitpicking the stuff I like.

Like "hey, why didn't any of those Jedi trainee kids rise up & take on Vader."

Apparently because he slaughters them in Revenge of the Sith.

Now, I'm not going to say that the directing style in M7 is bad, that is entirely based on the opinion of the viewer, however what I am trying to say is that it is different from the directing style shown in Zero. Different enough that those who despised Macross 7 and curse it's existance could come into Zero, see a lot of the same themes and elements in a similar context, but presented in a different way, and absolutely love the show.

Those expecting to see the same style setting each time are naturally going to be dissapointed when the story is continued in a new setting. Those who go in just for the story (I think) will be more welcoming of the changed setting each series takes place in..

Could be. And with M7 I was disappointed.

No it isn't. I can like Zero and hate M7. I mentioned earlier that it isn't really the concepts in M7 that I don't like. It is the implementation. I can like Zero because I think the more fantastic elements fit in pretty well with the context of the story, and like the visuals and so on.

That to me says that you find it ok for these things to occur on a tribal island, but not on a colony fleet in space...

It has nothing to do with the location. If the events of Zero had happened on a fleet colony that would be fine. If Zero had Valkyries with guitar control sticks and Edgar was playing a ukulele I probably wouldn't have liked Zero as much either.

in SDF music was used to SUPPORT the main fighting force and give them an edge.

Kind of like artillery?

And you're right in that Plus has no mention of these sorts of people, which is probably why that's my favourite Macross of the bunch.

And yet, you couldn't be more wrong.

I think he is refering to characters with superhuman powers. I don't think any humans in Plus had supernatural powers, did they (dispite what Isamu would have you believe)? Edited December 5, 2004 by Prime

[KingNor]

[bsu legato]

as for Campbell, hes a pretentious arse... read Vogler, he builds on Campbells ideas, uses examples that might make sence to someone who doesn't study abstract tribal storys and actually presents the information in a way that is useable.

Wow, way to suck all the fun out of the joke. Maybe you should drop by my place the next time I'm watching Scrubs, so you can point out all sorts of medical inaccuracies. Campbell or Volger, it doesn't really change what I'm trying to tell Cory, does it?

[KingNor]

as for Campbell, hes a pretentious arse... read Vogler, he builds on Campbells ideas, uses examples that might make sence to someone who doesn't study abstract tribal storys and actually presents the information in a way that is useable.

Wow, way to suck all the fun out of the joke. Maybe you should drop by my place the next time I'm watching Scrubs, so you can point out all sorts of medical inaccuracies. Campbell or Volger, it doesn't really change what I'm trying to tell Cory, does it?

i... i..

[Prime]

 

Sorry, I had hit "Add Reply" instead of "Preview" when I was responding.

I blew your mind, didn't I?

Edited December 5, 2004 by Prime

[Jemstone]

I still don't get what all the fuss is about. l completed all of Macross Zero last night and I don't get what people are bitching about. I think it's clear that there was influence by some unknown alien force (APHOS). A force that was clearly the remnants of the Protoculture (which we all learned and knew that existed before hand in previous Macross series). Nobody at that point in the Macross timeline even knew about the Protoculture. SO once again, what's all the fuss about?

EDIT: Also try to keep in mind that even the characters of this series were not familar with the Protoculture at all and alot of what was going on with Sara seemed mysterious or just plain 'Magical" from their perspective.

Edited December 5, 2004 by Jemstone

[KingNor]

i'm intrested in which characters in m+ had super natural powers too....

i mean.. we can agree that "thinking" isn't a super natural power right?

[Jemstone]

i'm intrested in which characters in m+ had super natural powers too....

i mean.. we can agree that "thinking" isn't a super natural power right?

I'm interested to know why you (and others) keep asking these rhetorical questions with answers already known or just don't exist (considering M+ had very few related elements as far other alien species goes). Perhaps I should be looking for a giant prehistoric bird in M0 (altho there's no reason or relation to it's exitence between M+ and M0).

[Noyhauser]

i'm intrested in which characters in m+ had super natural powers too....

i mean.. we can agree that "thinking" isn't a super natural power right?

As I've pointed out before, Mac + isn't really in the pattern of the Macross stories, because it never was supposed to be one according to Kawamori. It was originally supposed to be part of an alternate universe under the title of advanced valkyrie... but that got shelved and he reused the script to create Macross plus later. Compared to Zero, Seven, and SDF, it is the odd one out.

[KingNor]

Noyhauser and Jemstone:

i was responding to a comment keith made:

(Keith @ Dec 5 2004, 03:17 AM)

And you're right in that Plus has no mention of these sorts of people, which is probably why that's my favourite Macross of the bunch. 

And yet, you couldn't be more wrong.

i'm intrested in knowing which m+ characters he considers to be supernatural, unless i am missreading his post.

its not rehtorical at all. he posted an observation i'd like to hear his thoughts behind it.

Edited December 6, 2004 by KingNor

[Jemstone]

i'm intrested in which characters in m+ had super natural powers too....

i mean.. we can agree that "thinking" isn't a super natural power right?

As I've pointed out before, Mac + isn't really in the pattern of the Macross stories, because it never was supposed to be one according to Kawamori. It was originally supposed to be part of an alternate universe under the title of advanced valkyrie... but that got shelved and he reused the script to create Macross plus later. Compared to Zero, Seven, and SDF, it is the odd one out.

That I know and agree with you wholeheartedly.

i'm intrested in knowing which m+ characters he considers to be supernatural, unless i am missreading his post.

its not rehtorical at all. he posted an observation i'd like to hear his thoughts behind it.

I'm surprised you're taking Keith seriously if that's the case.

[CoryHolmes]

i'm intrested in which characters in m+ had super natural powers too....

i mean.. we can agree that "thinking" isn't a super natural power right?

I'm interested to know why you (and others) keep asking these rhetorical questions with answers already known or just don't exist (considering M+ had very few related elements as far other alien species goes). Perhaps I should be looking for a giant prehistoric bird in M0 (altho there's no reason or relation to it's exitence between M+ and M0).

We keep asking because other people keep bringing the topic up to support their arguments.

[Keith]

i dont' know who started the trend of the "point by point" replys, but am i the only one who finds them minid numbing?? please just put togeather a coherent responce and post it, you don't need to repost the ENTIRE post you're responding to.

Direct quote reply's help keep everything in perspective.

That is psychological warfare!!! they used mental conditioning/reason/whatever to defeat their enemys and not only that, but turn them into allys. thats psychological warfare dude... even if it's unintentional. Earths culture, simply by being exposed to the Zentradi defeated the zentradis will to fight the way they have been.

By that reasoning any level of peace talk or discussion that's attempting to turn an enemy into an ally is psychological warfare. You're being far too wide open with your interpretation. Psychological warfare by its nature requires the intent to attack another by such means.

as for the theme of music in macross... while music is used in all the serise, the role and prominence of the music, not to mention the nature of its effect on people has changed dramaticly since the original serise. even in plus they started showing this "trance" state that music caused. I'll leave it at that. if you can't see how the role of music has evolved in the franchise, and likewise can't grasp how fans of the original might not like the new developments, then i can't continue this part of the discussion with you.

Except that its role hasn't changed all that much at all. It still maintains the same position it always has, though its prominence has grown somewhat. The Macross sequels (& prequel) have done what all good sequels & prequels should do. Maintain what came before, while expanding upon it.

I CAN accept the change, i don't like it but i accept it's changing. you on the other hand seem very intent on proving that nothing is changing and its been that way since the start. so don't accuse other people of being closed minded.

I'm intent on proving it, because that's the way it is. There are no fundimental concepts in Plus, 7, or Zero, that aren't extensions of what was already present in the original series.

there is NO "spirita" in SDF, none. Accept it.

There are the story seeds for it, and that is enough.

likewise, someone who is a fan of a pretty well thought out militaristic serise (SDF) has every right to be put off by something like a drumset in a fighter plane, that is NOT a superficial (superciial) thing. again.. if you can't see that, i don't know what to say. insturments and emotion driven vehicles are.. not something SDF had aluded to.

The mistake is yours, not mine. Macross was an anti-militaristic series. And someone who is turned off by a drumkit in a fighter needs to lighten up. Hell, even current military hardware allows for the broadcast of music to amp up the soldiers (see George W's operatioin nuke the Iraqis for Oil).

i guess what i'm saying is that most fans of SDF (hardcore sdf fans like me) will never really like the serise after it because they don't mesh well. Kawamori even stated himself he's not making much of an effort to make them mesh.

That's a lot of supposition to imply that you represent the hardcore Macross fanbase. Besides which, Kawamori never said he wasn't making much of an attempt to make the series "mesh." What he specifically said was that he wasn't going to be anal about Zero's end & SDF TV's beginning. What we can construe that to mean now that the series is finished, is that there won't be a direct tye in (i.e. showing the Macross, or showing how Roy went from Mayan to South Atalia). Hardcore Macross fans aren't in it for the military hardware & battles, because Hardcore Macross fans know that those were never the centerpieces to the story to begin with.

so for YOUR opinions to carry weight, you're going to have to come to terms with the fact that m7 m0 and to a lesser extent m+ and dyrl DON'T match the original, they have things in them the original didn't AND even if you can loosely justify some stuff as having been forshadowed in the original, IT WASN'T intentional by the creators.

Who are you to say what was & wasn't intended by the creaters? Considering the very same creaters "did" lead things into the direction they have gone, have never alluded to any other series of events occuring, and have yet to truly contradict anything which has come before, It's pretty safe to assume that things are going as they were intended to. Unless of course you have some top secret Nue story outline for the original 50+ episode run of the series, but then that would be the burden of your proof.

macross is a completely diffrent animal than it was in its SDF days. please stop trying to convince us that extra human music powers, the underwater city, aphos and all this post-SDF stuff was in SDF because it wasn't. SOME of the themes are the same but most are at least somewhat changed, many are comepletely diffrent now.

You act like everything is Macross II, which isn't the case. The problem would seem to be that you have a misconception of what Macross is to begin with. If you want a dry military series, look elsewhere.

if you're so open minded, stop trying to mesh everything togeather and accept that they are diffrent, and that not all fans like the changes.

So if I want to be open minded, I must be close minded? Go back & watch the series again. It's not about big flashy explosions, death & destruction, trying to defeat the enemy, or any of that nonsense. While those are components to the story, the central core has always been, and continues to be, the power of peoples emotions to reach out to others & move their hearts through music. Macross has succeeded in maintaining that theme, as well as a well fighting story canon.

The mechanism was "Sara." Whether she realized she had the ability or not, her power extended to the point of being able to levitate objects.

What gave her that power?

Her emotions.

But the music is being used to tell the story, and so is a part of the presentation. So it has an affect on how the show as a whole is viewed buy the audience. Since I do not like the jusic, it detracts from the overall experience of the show.

The music isn't being used to tell the story, it's just a thematic component of it. And while liking the muisc does help, not liking it doesn't detract away from the story being told. Hell, with a diversity of musical styles in general, there are always bound to be some styles that some don't like.

I disagree that it is not funnier, since on of the definitions of funny is "beyond or deviating from the usual or expected." Since I find that using said control scheme deviates greatly from the standard norm (even the standard norm in Macross up to that point and for the most part thereafter). Thus I find it funny.

Here's my question, do you not believe that an alternate control scheme as shown in 7 is not physically capable of existing? Its dynamic is clearly shown to be similar to standard, just with a different visual presentation. It's not like the U.N. Spacy junked everything & replaced it with the Kai designs.

But our culture doesn't use pinapple control schemes. If it did, then sure the current control scheme would seem funny. That fact is we don't. In any event, surely you can see why people other than yourself may potentially find it funny

That's my entire point. The Kai Valkyries weren't intended to be normal, they weren't military use Valkyries, and they weren't used for fighting.

Actually, I watched Ep5 Zero again last night, and I have to say that the design of the AFOS is growing on me. I do like the tie-ins with the various artifacts found on Maya. And certainly the Protoculture were very different, and so their technology is. That is why I didn't particularly have a problem with the AFOS, even if I found it really strange looking, from the beginning. There was no real precident set (that I have been exposed to anyway) for what Protoculture technology would look and be like.

The precident set is what the Zentradi have been shown to have, and what the EVIL have been shown to be (i.e. a far more advanced level of Protoculture technology. The AFOS is a perfect represntation of that more advanced level shown in 7.

As for straight military hardware, the first two Macross series I was exposed to were the series and Plus. These contain more or less straight military hardware. And in Zero all human hardware is the same way. M7 is decidely not. And Yes, Macross has never been about the hardware, but apart from M7 that has been the setting and style that the series has been in. And I really like that bout it. M7 deviates from that style quite a bit, and so I like it less so. If Macross had had that style from the beginning, I would have been more open to it.

Macross 7 also maintains it. The colony fleet, & all protective craft of that colony (save for the Kai Valkyries) use the same mlitaristic look of past Macross series. It's not like everything was suddenly made out of bubblegum or something. Besides which, the nature of a (good) sequel is to grow & expand upon what came before. With over 30 years of technological advancement between the two shows, there are naturally going to be some new aspects. Whether you like them or not is moot, as long as you accept them as part of the story.

I don't think I am being unfair to M7, because I am only judging it on my personal tastes and whether it provides enjoyment to me or not. I am not trying to convince others that they should see it as this or that. And I do judge it as a part of Macross as a whole.

I just don't see the dramatic differences you guys are claiming between SDF TV & 7. I can easily see the direct connections & progressions between them.

And that was alien technology, and the show presented it in such a way as it held my suspension of disbelief, for whatever reason.

Choice perhaps? Considering that humans are the inheriters to the Protoculture, was the technology truly that alien? Nor is it strange that humans would slowly move along the same routes of progression as the Protoculture?

Well, I do like the original series/DRYL songs more than M7 by quite a bit, but even that isn't necessarily my style of music.

Does it not being your style of music prevent you from enjoying the story?

But they aren't nearly so annoying about it.

I don't know, I find being blown up by the AFOS far more annoying (from a character in the story aspect) than a request to listen to a song.

Indeed. If they did and it was in the original TV series, I would have much less problem with it by the time it showed up in M7.

If everything was there in SDF M TV, then it would have been a significantly longer series, without need for a sequel. The nature again of sequels to grow & expand upon what came before. If you want to see nothing except for repeating storylines, I suggest you watch Gundam (mind you I like Gundam, but it is literally a continuing cycle of the same basic story setup).

I don't see how they are superficial at all. They are the means by which the story is told, and so they are part of the overall experience of the show. Even if the story is good, if the elements detract from it in the eyes of the viewer, then the experience will be poorer as a result. I don't just strip away every aspect of the show down to the basic plot and ignore the rest. I look at the show as a whole.

They're superficial in that they're only surface elements, i.e. not liking someone because they're black or asian, instead of listening to what they have to say.

I suspect that people would like the Lord of the Rings movies less if they were done in the style of South Park.

Even if I would like that.

If a story is good, doesn't matter how it's told. Take the Bakshi LOTR interpretation for instance. Terribly told version of the story, which would have been much more acceptable had it been told more accurately despite the lower grade of animation.

Apparently because he slaughters them in Revenge of the Sith.

Nah, Lucas would never even hint to the slaughtering of children, he doesn't have the nuts anymore.

Could be. And with M7 I was disappointed.

That's too bad. But here's another question. Despite your dislike of the asthetic aspects of the show, how did you feel about the depth put into the history of the Protoculture conflict?

It has nothing to do with the location. If the events of Zero had happened on a fleet colony that would be fine. If Zero had Valkyries with guitar control sticks and Edgar was playing a ukulele I probably wouldn't have liked Zero as much either.

How do you feel about the core aspect of Macross being people sharing their emotions with one another through music? You can't do that without playing muisc afterall.

Kind of like artillery?

No, more like not putting all of your eggs in one basket. In addition to having a defending force, also having a peace negotiation gruop.

I think he is refering to characters with superhuman powers. I don't think any humans in Plus had supernatural powers, did they (dispite what Isamu would have you believe)?

Aside from Myung's ability to reach Isamu's heart with her song when there's no way he would be able to audibly hear her? Or Guld's ability to control the YF-21 with his mind? A computer which can think for itself & feel emotions? None of that seems superhuman to you?

--------------------

i'm intrested in which characters in m+ had super natural powers too....

i mean.. we can agree that "thinking" isn't a super natural power right?

Thinking isn't a supernatural power, but thinking & controlling many aspects of an advanced variable fighter with a device that connects mind & machine most certainly is. As is Myung's showing of spiritia signs, and Sharon's ability to live despite being a machine (i.e. for a machien to have a soul) supernatutal.

--------------------

As I've pointed out before, Mac + isn't really in the pattern of the Macross stories, because it never was supposed to be one according to Kawamori. It was originally supposed to be part of an alternate universe under the title of advanced valkyrie... but that got shelved and he reused the script to create Macross plus later. Compared to Zero, Seven, and SDF, it is the odd one out.

While Plus wasn't concieved as a Macross series, the only real aspects of it that we know were specifically a part of the AVF story was the competition between test pilots. The rest howver could very easily be Macross specific.

I'm surprised you're taking Keith seriously if that's the case.

Why wouldn't he, he's even responding to you.

Edited December 6, 2004 by Keith

[Phyrox]

I've always had this theory that if given enough time, even the most dedicated blowhards would talk themselves to death.

I guess I've always been wrong on that.

[KingNor]

yeah i'm a hardcore fan of the serise. NOT macross as a whole. i'm a hardcore sdf fan.

don't get them mixed up.

anyway, i can't penetrait that wall of text so i'm just gonna say you win keith, weather i feel your right or not, you just clearly want it more.

I will listen to his song, but it will be on mute.

[CoryHolmes]

I will listen to his song, but it will be on mute.

Great answer! Can I borrow it?

[Jemstone]

I'm surprised you're taking Keith seriously if that's the case.

Why wouldn't he, he's even responding to you.

Because, my dear, you are a bonafide fool if you think that Myung's music reaching Isamu is spiritia (which it sounds like this is where you are taking this). Furthermore Guld didn't have "supernatural" powers that can not be explained. I hope you are familiar with the definition of the term supernatural. There was nothing supernatural about the YF-21 functionality. The mechanics are more or less laid out for it and so it's hadrly anything mysterious and miraculous. Neither is an AI trying it emulate human emotions (a concept rehashed a million times in entertainment media). You need to get a grip and just accept the fact that Macross Plus really made no mention of anything like that.

For the record, he's listening to me (unlike to you based on his last repsonse to you) because I don't write a novel of empty text trying to prove I'm right for the sake of wanting to be right by reading too much into things that don't even exist. You are such a silly fanboy at times. I'm only responding to you cuz you are like a baby's toy that's fun chewing on then throwing away when it's become boring.

EDIT: It's not too late to look up the definition of the word supernatural and even posting it. At least give yourself some dignity, man.

Edited December 6, 2004 by Jemstone

[KingNor]

jemstone:

myung tells sharon something along these lines:

"you don't have emotions, you're just running a program, even you THINKING you have emotions is just another part of your programming"

so that is a good argument for sharron not being a living entity, but just a run-away AI with tons of emotional data programed in.

however, Sharron then says something about how she [sharron] loves guld and isamu, and this seems to startle Myung.

problem is that the reason she's startled isn't clear... either:

1) she's startled because this can't be part of a program, sharron really does have emotions!

2) she's startled because sharrons emotions match myungs exactly, and she's being forced to admit something about herself she doesn't want to deal with!

I like to side with #2 but i'll admit there isn't much to DISPROVE #1..

jem i agree completely however that the yf-21 isn't supernatural at all.

had the 21 been endowed with like... the SOUL of gulds mother or something and THAT was why he could fly it with his mind, then that would be supernatural.

as it is. the 21 is presented as a machine with an advanced brainwave reader.. stuff like this actually exists now for quadropalegics and people with other muscle problems so that they can operate a mouse and use a computer with out useing their hands.

anyway...

i'm bad, i should stop going to the threads about the shows i don't like

[Jemstone]

jemstone:

myung tells sharon something along these lines:

"you don't have emotions, you're just running a program, even you THINKING you have emotions is just another part of your programming"

so that is a good argument for sharron not being a living entity, but just a run-away AI with tons of emotional data programed in.

however,  Sharron then says something about how she [sharron] loves guld and isamu,  and this seems to startle Myung.

problem is that the reason she's startled isn't clear...  either:

1) she's startled because this can't be part of a program,  sharron really does have emotions! 

2) she's startled because sharrons emotions match myungs exactly, and she's being forced to admit something about herself she doesn't want to deal with!

I like to side with #2 but i'll admit there isn't much to DISPROVE #1.. 

The obvious answer is #2 and still there IS NOTHING supernatural about it. She emulated what Myung felt. It was said over and over again that Sharon's emotional progarmmig was never complete so she was never really able to feel anything on her own. However, she did tap into Myung's emotions and declared that Myung's feleings were now all hers and that Myung was left with nothing. Nothing to second guess. Nothing supernatural about that.

EDIT: Love isn't supernatural either it may seem so to specific fanboys who have never experienced it.

EDITEDIT: You also have too much EVA in your diet. lol

Edited December 6, 2004 by Jemstone

[KingNor]

i knew i'd get the eva stamp, i should have said the soul of his dog.

and for the record there is no such thing as love.. only "gentle lust"

[ewilen]

Folks, there's no contradiction between #1 and #2.

#1 (the idea that Sharon is an actual living entity) is also a science fiction trope, and closely related to issues in philosophy and the study of artificial intelligence. If you aren't aware of the notion that "conscious life" can be a characteristic of machines (and the implicit notion that the human brain is a biological computer), you should read more Stanislaw Lem, Philip K. Dick, Douglas Hofstadter, etc.

But another issue that goes along with this idea is that there's no way of really knowing if another entity is endowed with consciousness, or if it only shows the outward appearance of consciousness. A standard scientific approach to this conundrum is pure positivism in the form of the Turing Test (which see): (roughly speaking) if you can't tell whether the entity on the other side of a conversation is a machine or a person, then it can be considered an intelligent being for all intents and purposes.

Now, this does contradict some common metaphysical/religious beliefs about life, or humanity, being somehow special and distinct from "inert" matter. But very few of us have any direct evidence of the existence of consciousness apart from our own. The few who do have evidence are those who might claim to have ESP or to have had mystical experiences. Many people would look at these claims with considerable skepticism (and in any case, coming from other people, i.e. entities outside our conscious minds, they're no more reliable, as evidence of external consciousness, than the Turing Test). But the idea of direct contact with the consciousness of other individuals is a common one in fantasy & science fiction, so that, in those fictional realities, the metaphysical proposition that "other people are just as conscious as I am" is definitively true.

Furthermore, there are alternatives to the notion (metaphysical in our world, "real" in some fiction and many religions) that each human individual is a unique and distinct consciousness. As I've alluded to above, fantasy and science fiction often propose that not only humans, but animals, aliens, and even computers and other nonbiological entities may be endowed with "consciousness". And it's common (in SF at least) to propose (implicitly or explicitly) that the mechanism by which consciousness arises is neither divine nor supernatural, although it may be "mysterious" in the sense of being beyond the ability of the human mind to fully comprehend. As well, one sometimes finds the notion that "consciousness" is not necessarily restricted to individuals: two consciousnesses can not only come into direct contact but can even merge. (See e.g. the ending of Ghost in the Shell.) As well there may be "meta-intelligence" endowed with "meta-consciousness": entities composed of multiple individuals functioning as cells, who may themselves be perfectly unaware of belonging to a larger consciousness. Again, no "supernatural" processes need be involved.

These issues relate to Macross in various ways. In M+, Sharon may be conscious, or she may simply be mimicking consciousness; there's no way of knowing. The moment when Isamu hears Myung singing is subject to multiple interpretations, only some of which might suggest there's something special about biological consciousness as distinct from electronic mimicry. Both M7 and MZero imply the existence of "higher powers", but they also strongly imply that all the "magic" is really no more or less than "supertechnology" (Clark's Third Law). This isn't to say that there aren't spiritual overtones to both shows. There are. But because the "magical" elements of the shows are presented as "scientific", the shows don't necessarily advance a supernatural or divine form of spirituality. Instead, M7 & M0 can be seen as offering a "positivistic spirituality" which acknowledges the limitations of our understanding, values life and humanity (in the broadest sense), and argues against the arrogance of power.

Edited December 6, 2004 by ewilen

[Prime]

The mechanism was "Sara." Whether she realized she had the ability or not, her power extended to the point of being able to levitate objects.

What gave her that power?

Her emotions.

Every other human has emotions too. Why aren't they floating rocks around everywhere? The difference must be more than bloodtype.

But the music is being used to tell the story, and so is a part of the presentation. So it has an affect on how the show as a whole is viewed buy the audience. Since I do not like the music, it detracts from the overall experience of the show.

The music isn't being used to tell the story, it's just a thematic component of it. And while liking the muisc does help, not liking it doesn't detract away from the story being told. Hell, with a diversity of musical styles in general, there are always bound to be some styles that some don't like.

It might not detract from the story, but it does detract from the experience of watching the show. If someone doesn't like the music, as a result they are going to enjoy the show less than they otherwise might.

I disagree that it is not funnier, since on of the definitions of funny is "beyond or deviating from the usual or expected." Since I find that using said control scheme deviates greatly from the standard norm (even the standard norm in Macross up to that point and for the most part thereafter). Thus I find it funny.

Here's my question, do you not believe that an alternate control scheme as shown in 7 is not physically capable of existing? Its dynamic is clearly shown to be similar to standard, just with a different visual presentation. It's not like the U.N. Spacy junked everything & replaced it with the Kai designs.

Having it physically capable of existing doesn't mean it can't come across as funny. Cosmo Kramer exists, and people find him funny.

But our culture doesn't use pinapple control schemes. If it did, then sure the current control scheme would seem funny. That fact is we don't. In any event, surely you can see why people other than yourself may potentially find it funny

That's my entire point. The Kai Valkyries weren't intended to be normal, they weren't military use Valkyries, and they weren't used for fighting.

Again, doesn't mean that people won't find them funny.

As for straight military hardware, the first two Macross series I was exposed to were the series and Plus. These contain more or less straight military hardware. And in Zero all human hardware is the same way. M7 is decidely not. And Yes, Macross has never been about the hardware, but apart from M7 that has been the setting and style that the series has been in. And I really like that bout it. M7 deviates from that style quite a bit, and so I like it less so. If Macross had had that style from the beginning, I would have been more open to it.

Macross 7 also maintains it. The colony fleet, & all protective craft of that colony (save for the Kai Valkyries) use the same mlitaristic look of past Macross series. It's not like everything was suddenly made out of bubblegum or something. Besides which, the nature of a (good) sequel is to grow & expand upon what came before. With over 30 years of technological advancement between the two shows, there are naturally going to be some new aspects. Whether you like them or not is moot, as long as you accept them as part of the story.

Whether I like them or not is not moot (to me anyway). If I don't like them and it decreases my enjoyment of the show (along with the other things), then there comes a point where I decide that I don't want to watch the show any more. There is more to a show than just the plot.

And that was alien technology, and the show presented it in such a way as it held my suspension of disbelief, for whatever reason.

Choice perhaps? Considering that humans are the inheriters to the Protoculture, was the technology truly that alien? Nor is it strange that humans would slowly move along the same routes of progression as the Protoculture?

The AFOS looked pretty alien to me.

Well, I do like the original series/DRYL songs more than M7 by quite a bit, but even that isn't necessarily my style of music.

Does it not being your style of music prevent you from enjoying the story?

No. But it can certainly prevent me from enjoying the show.

But they aren't nearly so annoying about it.

I don't know, I find being blown up by the AFOS far more annoying (from a character in the story aspect) than a request to listen to a song.

It was a joke.

Indeed. If they did and it was in the original TV series, I would have much less problem with it by the time it showed up in M7.

If everything was there in SDF M TV, then it would have been a significantly longer series, without need for a sequel. The nature again of sequels to grow & expand upon what came before. If you want to see nothing except for repeating storylines, I suggest you watch Gundam (mind you I like Gundam, but it is literally a continuing cycle of the same basic story setup).

I'm wasn't talking about storyline.

I don't see how they are superficial at all. They are the means by which the story is told, and so they are part of the overall experience of the show. Even if the story is good, if the elements detract from it in the eyes of the viewer, then the experience will be poorer as a result. I don't just strip away every aspect of the show down to the basic plot and ignore the rest. I look at the show as a whole.

They're superficial in that they're only surface elements, i.e. not liking someone because they're black or asian, instead of listening to what they have to say.

But they are still elements used in the show to provide entertainment to the viewer. If those elements in fact reduce the enjoyment of the viewer, then they can prevent said viewer from enjoying the show.

It's like if Basara was instead a purple dinosaur with a high-pitched voice named Barney. The message and storyline may be the same, but viewers who like humans as characters are probably not going to a like a show as much with Barney telling everyone to listen to his song.

I suspect that people would like the Lord of the Rings movies less if they were done in the style of South Park.

Even if I would like that.

If a story is good, doesn't matter how it's told.

I couldn't disagree more. If that was the case, every movie with an excellent story would be a blockbuster hit, and every action movie would be a bomb. There are other factors that go into a show/movie that also increase or dectract from the entertainment value. I'm sure you don't need me to provide you with examples.

Take the Bakshi LOTR interpretation for instance. Terribly told version of the story, which would have been much more acceptable had it been told more accurately despite the lower grade of animation.

It has been many years since I have seen it, but to my recollection it actually is a closer adaptation of the novels than Peter Jackson's versions. Are you saying that if the animated had been completed it would have been a better than the movies (assuming that a closer adaptation is the better story)? Would there be no chance that even with a worse version of the story people might like Jackson's versions more anyway?

Apparently because he slaughters them in Revenge of the Sith.

Nah, Lucas would never even hint to the slaughtering of children, he doesn't have the nuts anymore.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Could be. And with M7 I was disappointed.

That's too bad. But here's another question. Despite your dislike of the asthetic aspects of the show, how did you feel about the depth put into the history of the Protoculture conflict?

It was OK. I liked learning more about the Protoculture and thus more about the Macross universe. The majority of the characters I could care less about though. I got more enjoyment from reading about the events in the Macross timeline...

It has nothing to do with the location. If the events of Zero had happened on a fleet colony that would be fine. If Zero had Valkyries with guitar control sticks and Edgar was playing a ukulele I probably wouldn't have liked Zero as much either.

How do you feel about the core aspect of Macross being people sharing their emotions with one another through music? You can't do that without playing muisc afterall.

It's fine with me. But it isn't what attracted me to the series.

Kind of like artillery?

No, more like not putting all of your eggs in one basket. In addition to having a defending force, also having a peace negotiation gruop.

It was another joke.

I think he is refering to characters with superhuman powers. I don't think any humans in Plus had supernatural powers, did they (dispite what Isamu would have you believe)?

Aside from Myung's ability to reach Isamu's heart with her song when there's no way he would be able to audibly hear her?

I never thought about it much. I guess I always figured that it was through either the YF-19's sensors or the channel between Sharon and the 19/Isamu.

Or Guld's ability to control the YF-21 with his mind?

More like the YF-21's ability to get input from Guld's mind? Are you saying that Guld was the only being that could have controlled the YF-21?

A computer which can think for itself & feel emotions?

Sharon is not human character.

In any event, I always wondered whether she really felt emotions, or whether she is simply passing the Turing test on a grand scale.

EDIT: I see that ewilen has posted about the Turing test as I wrote this. Good on him.

Perhaps she was just a super complex machine that had gotten into an unstable state? I work and develop software for very complex systems, and such things do happen (the unstable state I mean) in the real world. Since Sharon's "output" was designed to appear as emotions (for her performances), an unstable state could perhaps appear as behavior she displays at the conclusion. But in the end, she may still be just a machine with no soul. If true, the characters could never know the difference.

Just something I wondered...

None of that seems superhuman to you?

No.

With all that said, as someone mentioned already we are talking ourselves to death. I know why I don't like Marcoss 7 and like Zero. I can't control whether you think it is all superficial or not, so I guess there is no need for me to continue to try and convince you otherwise.

Edited December 6, 2004 by Prime

[Noyhauser]

These issues relate to Macross in various ways. In M+, Sharon may be conscious, or she may simply be mimicking consciousness; there's no way of knowing. The moment when Isamu hears Myung singing is subject to multiple interpretations, only some of which might suggest there's something special about biological consciousness as distinct from electronic mimicry. Both M7 and MZero imply the existence of "higher powers", but they also strongly imply that all the "magic" is really no more or less than "supertechnology" (Clark's Third Law). This isn't to say that there aren't spiritual overtones to both shows. There are. But because the "magical" elements of the shows are presented as "scientific", the shows don't necessarily advance a supernatural or divine form of spirituality. Instead, M7 & M0 can be seen as offering a "positivistic spirituality" which acknowledges the limitations of our understanding, values life and humanity (in the broadest sense), and argues against the arrogance of power.

Wow.... Ewilen

best

answer

ever!

Well at least one of the most intelligent posts I have ever seen on this board. It succintly explains in a theoretical level what I think Kawamori (may) be getting at.

[Prime]

But another issue that goes along with this idea is that there's no way of really knowing if another entity is endowed with consciousness, or if it only shows the outward appearance of consciousness. A standard scientific approach to this conundrum is pure positivism in the form of the Turing Test (which see): (roughly speaking) if you can't tell whether the entity on the other side of a conversation is a machine or a person, then it can be considered an intelligent being for all intents and purposes.

These issues relate to Macross in various ways. In M+, Sharon may be conscious, or she may simply be mimicking consciousness; there's no way of knowing. The moment when Isamu hears Myung singing is subject to multiple interpretations, only some of which might suggest there's something special about biological consciousness as distinct from electronic mimicry. Both M7 and MZero imply the existence of "higher powers", but they also strongly imply that all the "magic" is really no more or less than "supertechnology" (Clark's Third Law). This isn't to say that there aren't spiritual overtones to both shows. There are. But because the "magical" elements of the shows are presented as "scientific", the shows don't necessarily advance a supernatural or divine form of spirituality. Instead, M7 & M0 can be seen as offering a "positivistic spirituality" which acknowledges the limitations of our understanding, values life and humanity (in the broadest sense), and argues against the arrogance of power.

Much better explanation than I gave.

Well said.

[KingNor]

elwin win's! as a prise, he gets to see my avatar again.

[ewilen]

Thanks, guys. These are things I've been thinking about for a while.

One other fictional example I'd like to add, regarding the "cellular consciousness" concept: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (the ending of the original book; won't go into detail to avoid spoilers).

Also, rereading my post, I think I may have given the impression that

not only humans, but animals, aliens, and even computers and other nonbiological entities may be endowed with "consciousness"

is only a concept from fiction. Of course, these ideas are also found in a number of religions, some of which undoubtedly served as inspiration for Kawamori's portrayal of the Mayans.

Also note that, depending on your interpretation and the fictional/philosophical/religious context, "ghost"="soul"="consciousness"="spirit".

Edited December 6, 2004 by ewilen

[Prime]

One other fictional example I'd like to add, regarding the "cellular consciousness" concept: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (the ending of the original book; won't go into detail to avoid spoilers).

I wonder if the Valkyries in M7 were created by the Inifinite Improbability Drive?

[RichterX]

One other fictional example I'd like to add, regarding the "cellular consciousness" concept: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (the ending of the original book; won't go into detail to avoid spoilers).

I wonder if the Valkyries in M7 were created by the Inifinite Improbability Drive?

I actually hope the next serie of Variable Fighter in the next Macross serie are made of liquid metal like the T-1000

[ewilen]

That would certainly simplify the transformation process.

But it might make designing toys kind of tricky. Unless they make them out of play-doh.

[Keith]

I've always had this theory that if given enough time, even the most dedicated blow hards would talk themselves to death.

I guess I've always been wrong on that.

Just because you don't care to pay attention to what I say, does not mean it's devoid of value.

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yeah i'm a hardcore fan of the serise. NOT macross as a whole. i'm a hardcore sdf fan.

And being a hardcore fan of the series, it shouldn't matter to you what the content is of the franchise as a whole, as by your admission here, you only concerned with the content of the original.

don't get them mixed up.

Considering that it's all part of one larger story, there's not much to mix up. SDF Macross & Macross 7 are one story, as are Zero & Plus.

nyway, i can't penetrait that wall of text so i'm just gonna say you win keith, weather i feel your right or not, you just clearly want it more.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, just clarity. No ones forcing you to discuss anything, but your lack of care in the matter makes me wonder why you attempted to at all.

I will listen to his song, but it will be on mute.

Basara transcends sound!

--------------------

Because, my dear, you are a bonafide fool if you think that Myung's music reaching Isamu is spiritia (which it sounds like this is where you are taking this).

You're even more foolish if you believe otherwise. Sharon gave Myung no com channel to Isamu, he showed no indication of hearing anything at all that was going on between the two of them. Add to that the many cannons that were firing off at Isamu, noise from the YF-19, airtight canopy, etc, and there's absolutely no way the sound of her song would be able to reach him.

Add to that the fact that Plus & 7 were both developed at the same time, share many story concepts in common, etc, then you have no grounds to be calling anyone a fool.

Furthermore Guld didn't have "supernatural" powers that can not be explained. I hope you are familiar with the definition of the term supernatural. There was nothing supernatural about the YF-21 functionality. The mechanics are more or less laid out for it and so it's hadrly anything mysterious and miraculous. Neither is an AI trying it emulate human emotions (a concept rehashed a million times in entertainment media). You need to get a grip and just accept the fact that Macross Plus really made no mention of anything like that.

There's nothing supernatural about controlling an inadimate object with your mind? Are you familiar with the definition of supernatural? If by more or less "laid out" you mean "this machine connects the human brain with a variable fighter...tada!" Then you also need to familiarize yourself with the term "laid out." And despite A.I.'s taking on human characteristics being a common theme in sci fi, that doesn't describe the specifics of how such a thing can occur in reality. Or perhaps you hold the secret to giving machines souls & aren't sharring? But back ot the Guld thing, why is it that you can accept that a man can control a complex machine with his mind, but you can't accept that a man can control energy with his mind? One is not a far leap from the other. I have noticed some serious Macross Plus denial going on here though, and you specifically need to get a grip. Just because something happens with fiction involving machine explanations, does not mean something happening in fiction regarding biological explanations is less valid. In the specific case of Plus, many of the same things going on in 7 occur, again just using people tied to machines instead of people relying on inner ki.

For the record, he's listening to me (unlike to you based on his last repsonse to you) because I don't write a novel of empty text trying to prove I'm right for the sake of wanting to be right by reading too much into things that don't even exist. You are such a silly fanboy at times. I'm only responding to you cuz you are like a baby's toy that's fun chewing on then throwing away when it's become boring.

Just for the record, ignoring what someone says & demeaning it does not make you right, just lazy. Nor does calling names & ignoring the topic make you a good debater.

EDIT: It's not too late to look up the definition of the word supernatural and even posting it. At least give yourself some dignity, man.

Or I could just do an imitation of you, "la la la, you're stupid, la la la." But I'd never sink to that level.

--------------------

jem i agree completely however that the yf-21 isn't supernatural at all.

had the 21 been endowed with like... the SOUL of gulds mother or something and THAT was why he could fly it with his mind, then that would be supernatural.

as it is. the 21 is presented as a machine with an advanced brainwave reader.. stuff like this actually exists now for quadropalegics and people with other muscle problems so that they can operate a mouse and use a computer with out useing their hands.

anyway...

And humans exist spontaniously in the universe, don't require industrial manufacturing, or fabrication. They also have brains which function on electical & chemical impulses, and have been scientifically proven to have the power to effect others moods with the imposition of their own. So by your random non-descript science, nothing in 7 is supernatural either.

--------------------

The obvious answer is #2 and still there IS NOTHING supernatural about it. She emulated what Myung felt. It was said over and over again that Sharon's emotional progarmmig was never complete so she was never really able to feel anything on her own. However, she did tap into Myung's emotions and declared that Myung's feleings were now all hers and that Myung was left with nothing. Nothing to second guess. Nothing supernatural about that.

Ah, and also tapped into Myungs desire to hypnotisze masses of poeple, hijack military hardware, & kill Isamu.... And naturally, Myung would have a much betterfundimental understanding of Sharon's level of awareness, than say the loon who created her...

EDIT: Love isn't supernatural either it may seem so to specific fanboys who have never experienced it.

Is that the only arguing tactic you guys have? I could bring up that there's some random rule around here not to demean other members, but I'd rather pose the question of why you're even bothering. This is afterall a Macross fan forum, where assumedly Macross fans would conglomerate. If you're not a fan of the material, then why even bother? And for that matter, why attack other fans for being (dare I say it) fans of the material? You're the one with the problem here, not me.

---------

I couldn't disagree more. If that was the case, every movie with an excellent story would be a blockbuster hit, and every action movie would be a bomb. There are other factors that go into a show/movie that also increase or dectract from the entertainment value. I'm sure you don't need me to provide you with examples.

Your supposition being that they are all good stories. A good story can be told with animation, live action, ice cream sticks, light bright, etc. A poorly told story is poor irregardless of the medium used. With that said, not liking visual presentation has nothing to do with the value of the story being told in it.

It has been many years since I have seen it, but to my recollection it actually is a closer adaptation of the novels than Peter Jackson's versions. Are you saying that if the animated had been completed it would have been a better than the movies (assuming that a closer adaptation is the better story)? Would there be no chance that even with a worse version of the story people might like Jackson's versions more anyway?

Closer to the novels???? Go rent the animated version & come back to this topic.

Edited December 7, 2004 by Keith