Mr March

Fair enough. "I must have that emoticon!"

Ironside The only rudeness is coming from you. Every member can clearly see your post count and does not need to have the blatantly obvious explained to them. That would be rude. Thus, we're back to what I said the post was; needless drama. And let's also keep in mind that my post "asked" that it not continue. Regarding...official figures: Continuity works via unification of the known facts. Hence, empty weight figures work just fine as a basis for comparison. The VF-11 weighs less the the YF-21; we know this because of empty weight figures and that's the only OFFICIAL basis for comparison we have. So I use the figures in the only way they can be used. You might as well have said 15 tons or 100 tons for all the unofficial irrelevance your 20 ton figure has. What you've done is pull numbers out of nowhere and in turn damned my use of official figures as a basis for straight comparison. I can't imagine any way in which you could be more in error. Regarding...Fan Speculation: Beyond official figures, my speculations are as valid as your speculations. Use 20 tons if you like to speculate. Personally, I argue for the VF-1 benchmark of 5.25 tons or ratio. Regardless, in the realm of fan speculation, our only option is to agree to disagree on what each of us has used to obtain our own figures. In the end, who cares? No one can prove an argument of fan speculation just as one can't win an argument of opinion. Regarding...the supposed misconception: I was as baffled by ChronoReverse's statements as apparently he was by mine. Nonetheless, a direct quote has proven I stated the VF-25 can fly, complete with a quote and link. ChronoReverse honestly made a mishap understanding my posts as did I understanding his. That matter has now been resolved. If my proven correct opinion on the matter is ignored by other members, I don't have to state where the obvious fault lies. ChronoReverse Things are good on my end.

The biggest "Huh" I can imagine just popped into my head. I posted that the VF-25 DID fly, in my first thoughts on the subject! And I quote from page 31... http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?s=&a...st&p=582559 Well, at least I know why I had such a hard time understanding your arguments CR, because we were arguing FOR the same point *embarrassed*

mikeszekely A very good point. Having 1/4 less gravity at an embarkation/debarkation area makes a lot of sense from both a point of transitional acclimation for human passengers as well as assisting in the sending/receiving of cargo. Mostly likely the rest of the ship is at 1g. ChronoReverse Hmmm, I think I've lost track of what we're supposed to be debating here, cause I'm not following your post. I only meant to imply the VF-11 carrying the YF-21 is not nearly as heavy as a Valkyrie equipped with a full armor system (and the statistics agree). So I don't really understand the comparison to the VF-11/YF-21 and the VF-25 Full Armor. Digressing to the whole point I was making, I think the weight of the VF-25 Full Armor will be significant, like all armor systems in the past have been. But a combination of lighter weight materials, a more stream-lined armor system on the VF-25 and the VF-25's own powerful engines are likely the reasons why the Full Armor GERWALK can fly in gravity. RichterX That's not a bad point and a good example to cite. But like you said, I don't think there was ever any doubt that an Armored Valkyrie would have some thruster mobility even under gravity. Just that it's likely an Armored Battroid can't fly in gravity. Ironside Okay, first and foremost (and this is by no means directly only at Ironside but to everyone who's said the following in the last two pages of this thread), let's lose the whole "I don't post here often" garbage. Your posts will be given as much or as little consideration as the content of the posts warrants and no more or less than any other member here, newbie and veteran alike. This thread already has enough pretentious drama. Onto the subject of Valkyrie mass, after the VF-1, all we have for official numbers are empty weights. So anyone arbitrarily assigning a standard take-off mass is only asking for their theory to be discredited outright. We simply don't know, so we use what is known, which I why I use empty weight. Now, were we to extrapolate simply for the sake of argument, the only meaningful benchmark would be the statistics of the VF-1. I actually have done weight calculations for the Macross Valkyries, both empty AND estimated take-off mass. These are to be part of a special thrust-to-weight ratio section for the Macross Mecha Manual. If we were to use the VF-1 Valkyrie as our only benchmark, the VF-1 has an extra 5.25 tons beyond it's 13.25 tons empty mass for munitions and fuel in the standard take-off configuration. If we want to extrapolate and get into number crunching, you either add 5.25 tons to the later variable fighters or you use 40% of the empty Valkyrie mass. That's as close to semi-official fan extrapolation as we can get. Of course, we know that this theory is already erroneous. The Valkyries also become lighter over time, not heavier and their munitions become smaller (55mm to 30 mm). So the VF-11 standard take-off weight would actually be far less than an additional 5.25 tons. Regardless, for argument's sake we'll add an extra 5.25 tons to the YF-21 (ignoring the fact that the YF-21 was not fully armed at the time; it was animated without gun pods during the sequence from Macross Plus). This has the YF-21 sitting at 14.8 tons; like I said, a far cry from an extra 37.1 tons of weight. As for the VF-25 issue, the official literature translated so far says it's comparable to the VF-19 in performance. If we assume the VF-19S was the most advanced the VF-19 ever became, we get results such as: VF-19S Excalibur (empty) Thrust to Weight Ratio = 18.32 VF-19S Excalibur estimated standard take-off mass (with 5.25 extra tons of weight) Thrust to Weight Ratio = 11.38 If we were to add the total extra weight of a standard take-off mass VF-1J Armored system to the VF-25 (using VF-19 statistics), we'd have an additional 18.6 tons to account for. So, if we assume 1 gravity and ignored the Full Armor additional thrusters we get VF-25S as VF-19S statistics (with 18.6 extra tons of VF-1J Armored System weight) Thrust to Weight Ratio = 4.86 More than enough to fly. All other considerations being equal, the VF-25 Full Armor GERWALK would be more nimble in the atmosphere under gravity than the old VF-1 unarmored. Which brings us right back to what I said previously.

ChronoReverse Your post initially sounded as if you believed the VF-25 Full Armor was not capable of atmospheric flight because it seemed to labour just hovering. Which is why I posted my reminder. Nonetheless, the VF-11 hovering while carrying the YF-21 is a simple matter compared to an Armored Valkyrie. The VF-11 is 9 tons and the YF-21 weighs 9.55 tons; the VF-1J Armored Valkyrie weighs 37.1 tons at standard operational mass (sadly, the only Full Armor statistics for weight that are available). Nonetheless, quite a large difference so I don't think the VF-11/YF-21 comparison applies. Of course, all would be revealed if we had some VF-25 stats to compare. Damn Kawamori wolfx It's only logical that although the VF-25 Full Armor can fly under gravity in GERWALK mode, it's won't be as nimble as the unarmored mode. However, it's clear from episode 2 that the VF-25 Full Armor GERWALK is quite maneuverable in gravity and did not require Ozuma to fly with any special attention. We don't yet know what the limit of the Full Armor flight capabilities. I think Alto being older and larger was likely more durable than Ranka and his flight suit with EX-Gear would grant him a small measure of protection more than Ranka's civilian dress. I don't think it was a gender issue. taksraven LOL Not bad. We have to make some more

One scene later (the sequence that shows the title) the VF-25 Full Armor is shown flying in GERWALK mode, not hovering along the ground slowly. Remember, Ozuma was way up high when he found Alto and the Vajra, such that he needed the cockpit to magnify the distant image.

Even at 75% gravity, that still leaves the vast majority of the mass to deal with. If the Full Armor is an extra 20-30 tons, that's still 15-23 extra tons of weight. It's very doubtful the 1/4 less gravity would allow the VF-25 to go from no flight to unhindered flight. Granted, it's possible, but IMO, the VF-25 Full Armor system would have to be much lighter or the capabilities of the VF-25 engines that much more powerful in order to fly around under any significant gravity.

So, about the VF-25 Full Armor. Well, from episode 2 we now know quite a few things about the VF-25 in the armored configuration. First of all, it is beyond any doubt that not only can the VF-25 transform in all modes with the Full Armor system, but that the transformation speed is just as fast without the armor. Ozuma transformed his VF-25 Full Armor to dodge near-point blank fire. That's about as fast as it gets in the Macross universe Further, we see that the VF-25 Full Armor in GERWALK mode can hover and even fly inside the atmosphere! That's pretty damn impressive. I would imagine the VF-25 Full Armor weighs less than previous era Armored Valkyries to accomplish this kind of operation. As always, I'm eagerly awaiting the statistics on the new Valkyries.

*acts sneaky* Well, you must then watch Gundam 0080 to find out

Looking good. Definitely checking this one out.

The RX-78NT-1 Alex was specifically designed for Newtypes, but Christina was not a Newtype herself.

It's very likely the VF-25 gun pod has plenty of ammo, far more than the old GU-11 55mm gun pods on the VF-1 Valkyrie. The Macross sequels like Plus and 7 show that the gun pods get more destructive but use smaller ammunition as time goes on. The VF-11 gun pod was a 30 mm gun and had a very high ammunition capacity while powerful enough to deal with the most advanced Zentradi mecha of the era. It's likely the VF-25 gun pod is somewhere in the same 30 mm range and has a plentiful ammo count. I hope we get some statistics on it. For those wondering about the size differences between the Valkyries (and the possibility of leg mounted, internal micro-missiles), here's my rough size comparison based on the official figures for the Valkyrie Battroid height. VF-1 Valkyrie Battroid height: 12.68 meters VF-11B Thunderbolt Battroid height: 12.92 meters YF-19 Battroid height 15.48 meters (without cannon) VF-25 Battroid height 15.59 meters (including lasers)

Coming along nicely

Oh, so that's what people a fixating on, the way the VF-25 was running? Well, more power to ya I guess. It still feels like a Macross Plus reference to me. Guess, we'll have to wait for stats on that knife. It's hard to tell what is anime style and what is actualy tech sometimes.

Ozuma's attack felt like Macross Plus to me. Especially in the face of all the homages to past Macross events that appear in Frontier, Isamu's bayonet attack from Macross Plus is the obvious parallel to my mind. Is this so called "Valkyrie Knife" even mentioned as anything like a "Prog knife" (aka, vibroblade taken from hundreds of other science fiction stories)? So far as I know the knife is just a big blade with a typical anime-esque shine used whenever any cool looking anime blade slashes across the screen.

Indeed! You must finish that custom SDF-1 model. The way it was styled was simply brilliant.

As GogDog mentioned, the article specifically says "live action."

The VF-17 Nightmare. Without a doubt, the most positive thing to come from the Macross 7 series. The spacecraft design were also quite good. I found all of Miyatake Kazutaka's designs, New Macross Class included, to be interesting and very detailed. I know some had problems with them, but for me, this aspect of Macross 7 was one of the few winners. Then there are rare moments like the VF-11 Protect Armor battle in episode 26, Max's daring VF-22S assault in episode 44 and other assorted minor victories that show up now and then in the series. A rare charming character moment, a genuine laugh after a dozen episodes of shoved-down-your-throat "comedy", and the Protoculture history (sans spiritia) was nice to see. See, never as bad as you think. Just yank the tooth in one pull; right out!

You mean "automated" The official statistics for the YF-19 from Macross Plus make specific mention of Super AI systems as part of the variable fighter control suite. I think it's likely the next generation fighters include similar technology. The Ghost fighters, by virtue of being unmanned, likely have a much broader AI control system than manned fighters like the VF-25. The image magnification feature and internal cockpit holographic displays could still be pilot-controlled to some extent. The actual magnification system might be automated, but perhaps it requires the pilot to actually look in that direction and concentrate on it for additional display information to be activated. We know from Macross Zero (circa 2008) that the helmets contain laser tracking systems for the pilot's eyes. In the much more advanced 2059 era, it's not a leap to assume the internal AI control computer knows when the pilot is "squinting" to get a closer look at something. The computer registers pilot interest by eye movements and bang, instant magnification without any hands-on control.

I still believe the peak of Gundam mechanical design was during the 0080, 0083 and Char's Counterattack era (the RX-78NT-1 Alex and MS-18E Kaempfer being my absolute favorite mobile suits, with the RX-93 Nu-Gundam and MSN-04 Sazabi being close runners up). However, I will say that the new era of Gundam designs, beginning with the MBF-P02 Gundam Astray Red Frame in SEED and continuing with designs like the GN-001 Exia in Gundam 00 are some of the best Gundam mecha I've seen in a very long time. They've taken the best parts from old Gundam sensibility and merged it with completely re-thought aesthetics. These new designs are both instantly recognizable as Gundams and yet are very different modern mechanical styles. The head units in particular are now a more helmet-like linear design as opposed to the old statue-like crowns of past mobile suits. Overall, I find it a welcome change for the franchise.

I'm just referring to the japanese site (hence, translations). http://www.macross.co.jp/

Go chilly, you living-on-the-edge ace pilot

Yeah, this definitely smells of BS.

grss1982 Disturbed? Not in the least! That entire scene was anime action goodness at its best! Edgy, exciting and with a great after tastes Besides, perhaps Ozuma does have an axe to grind with the Vajra. It's obvious several of the characters already know about the Vajra, including Ozuma (from his dialog in episode one). I hope we get to see much more of Ozuma laying the smackdown Kronnang Dunn What can I say: Macross Zero didn't do it for me. But the mecha porn in Zero was fun to watch taksraven It feels like a much more epic production with the orchestral score and I too adored the Macross Plus soundtrack for the brilliant mix of classic and jpop. I'm loving the music to Macross Frontier, whether it's the slightly cheesy opening jpop or the deep bombastic orchestra. Pure Macross goodness

Slowly. Apparently there is some new VF-2SS information posted on the official website and I'm waiting for a friend of a friend to translate it. I'm also waiting on scans from several members. Nonetheless, I've completed six of the VF-2SS profiles with color variants and I'm almost done the VF-2SS SAP profile. I'd like to have the VF-2JS Icarus, SNN Valkyrie, the Gigamesh, the Macross Cannon and the Marduk Fleetbase completed for the opening of the Macross II section.