"did you know"wierd aviation trivia

[buddhafabio]

i found some thing wierd and neat

did you know the F-8 Crusader could fly with its wings folded

"The Crusader had a unique characteristic unforeseen by its builders. It could fly with its wings folded! Although never deliberately tried, there are many accounts of accidental take-offs with a "shorter" wingspan. Luckily, with the large center-wing area, and control surfaces located inboard of the fold, most of these amazing flights ended with reasonably safe landings and very nervous pilots. "

Edited July 29, 2004 by buddhafabio

[Angel's Fury]

Wow! That's neat!!!

[JsARCLIGHT]

They actually abuse that little tidbit of trivia in the original Area 88 Manga and Anime. Shin and a wingman, both flying Crusaders, fold their wings in mid-flight to avoid a nasty secret weapon that rips the wings off of planes.

I was watching the history channel the other night, had a special on the U2 spyplane and the whole mess over Russia in the cold war. Supposedly the cockpit in those things is so cramped that if you eject wrong your legs get ripped off by the overhang of the control pannel!

[David Hingtgen]

More interesting F-8 records/facts: http://www.cloudnet.com/~djohnson/records.htm

[buddhafabio]

how about when the Russians after they got thier hands on B-29s that did emergancy landings in russia after a mission over japan. Stalin wanted to copy it so bad and the Engineers were so afraid to be accused of a screw up and get killed for it that they, even copied the patches over battle damage from previous missions. even though they knew what they were.

[Solscud007]

I was watching the history channel the other night, had a special on the U2 spyplane and the whole mess over Russia in the cold war. Supposedly the cockpit in those things is so cramped that if you eject wrong your legs get ripped off by the overhang of the control pannel!

On one of my first Long Cross Country flights, with my flight instructor, we were headed to Mojave area, cant remember the airport but it goes over to where Willow Springs race way is, anyway our flight plan puts us really close to Edwards Airforce base and in order to fly by you need to get in contact with the tower there. So I did and after a little bit the tower tells me that he has a U2 taking off. My instructor and I didnt understand what he meant, plus a 152 cessna makes a lot of noise and the head phones arent exactly the most clear to hear through. So I look at my instructor and say "What is a U2?" He says he doesnt no and then a second later it dawns on me "No!!! not the spy plane?" and then a bit after I said that this humongous black plane rose out of nowhere. You know how fighter jets climb real fast but do it pointing almost straight up? well the U2 can do that without pointing straight up. It jsut screamed up into the sky past us. by only a mile or less away. I have never seen anything climb that fast before. (not including rockets but you never see them in the air anyway while they are climbing) it was crazy.

[buddhafabio]

only thing i saw take of like a bat out of hell like that was the SR-71 i saw take off from Kadena Air Base in Okinawa. I saw one of the last flights of the Habu. right after the crash and before the retirement. it was near sunset and the flame out the back was long and when it was air born it went straight up.

[The_Major]

Okay here's a "wierd" fact about the F-15.

An Israeli Pilot encounterd an enemy fighter, and proceded to enter somewhat of a dog fight with said enemy, well durring the filght the the enemy plane ended up flying upside down in relation to the F-15, well for some reason the F-15 and the enemy collided mid air, the enemy went down, but the F-15 went into a barrel roll headed for the ground, well the pilot instead of ejecting as per instinct, he pushed the throttel forward and the plane leveld its self off, well the craft was trailing a huge ammount of smoke from the right side, and i mean enough to compleatly obscure the wing, but the pilot had his wing man to a fly around to check damnage and nothing was noticed except for the large amount of smoke, well anyway the pilot made it back to base and landed smoothly with the exception of the fact that it was at a much higher speed than normal. anyway once the plane landed and the smoke died, the pilots wingman told him to look out the right side of the aircraft.

The F-15's right wing had been shierd off compleatly, the israely airforce couldnt figure out what the hell had just happend and called McDonnel Douglas who was stuned and sent a team of engineers.

well as it turns out while most all aircraft with multiple engines can fly with usualy half knocked out, the F-15's fuselage actualy produces enough lift that it can fly with only one wing.

True Story.

[buddhafabio]

my dad, "a retired airforce jet engine mechanic" actually also faa airframe and powerplant certified. any way he said after i watched top gun and asked if a f-14 could crash like that. that some of those f-14s and other aircraft that entered flat spins. recovered on thier own. after the pilot ejected.

[Skull Leader]

Okay here's a "wierd" fact about the F-15.

An Israeli Pilot encounterd an enemy fighter, and proceded to enter somewhat of a dog fight with said enemy, well durring the filght the the enemy plane ended up flying upside down  in relation to the F-15, well for some reason the F-15 and the enemy collided mid air, the enemy went down, but the F-15 went into a barrel roll headed for the ground, well the pilot instead of ejecting as per instinct, he pushed the throttel forward and the plane leveld its self off, well the craft was trailing a huge ammount of smoke from the right side, and i mean enough to compleatly obscure the wing, but the pilot had his wing man to a fly around to check damnage and nothing was noticed except for the large amount of smoke, well anyway the pilot made it back to base and landed smoothly with the exception of the fact that it was at a much higher speed than normal. anyway once the plane landed and the smoke died, the pilots wingman told him to look out the right side of the aircraft.

The F-15's right wing had been shierd off compleatly, the israely airforce couldnt figure out what the hell had just happend and called McDonnel Douglas who was stuned and sent a team of engineers.

well as it turns out while most all aircraft with multiple engines can fly with usualy half knocked out,  the F-15's fuselage actualy produces enough lift that it can fly with only one wing.

True Story.

The same thing has happened to a Tomcat... the glove-vane has enough surface and provides enough lift that a tomcat with it's wing sheared about halfway off managed to land (on a carrier no less!) It was from the VF-213 Black Lions

Speaking of battledamaged tomcats, there was a plane (VF-142 Ghostriders) lost it's nosecone in flight... shattered most of the canopy and forward windscreen... it also broke the pilot's right collarbone and put glass in his eyes... and he still managed to catch the 2 wire on a perfect trap with a broken collarbone and almost zero forward visability! This tomcat (Bu161422) is now flying with the VF-103,btw

Finally, back in 1983, the airwing of the Eisenhower managed to lose THREE TOMCATS IN THE SAME DAY (2 collided and 1 hydraulic failure)

Edited July 29, 2004 by Skull Leader

[Zentrandude]

i remember my dad talking about an incident with one of those anti sub choppers back in the earily 80/late 70s that lost all its landing gear stuff and was getting low on fuel. if it was to land it would go on its side and the blades would breaks and go everywhere injuring or killing anyone near by. so my dad and one of his buddies took a bed matris and i think 2 trucks to form a giant U shape area to hold the chopper up right long enough for the blades to slow down.

[Pat Payne]

Speaking of battledamaged tomcats, there was a plane (VF-142 Ghostriders) lost it's nosecone in flight... shattered most of the canopy and forward windscreen... it also broke the pilot's right collarbone and put glass in his eyes... and he still managed to catch the 2 wire on a perfect trap with a broken collarbone and almost zero forward visability! This tomcat (Bu161422) is now flying with the VF-103,btw 

Kinda reminds me of the WW1 ace Mick Mannock, who shot down at least 20 aircraft although he was almost completely blind from cataracts!

Edited July 29, 2004 by Pat Payne

[CF18]

the F-8 Crusader could fly with its wings folded

Huh? So Area88 is not totally full of poo in that part.

Hay what's up with this automatic changing sh*t to poo? Now that is full of sh*t!

Edited July 29, 2004 by CF18

[Druna Skass]

There was one incident in 'Nam with a pair of F-105s. A sidewinder accidently fired from one of the 105s and lodged itself in the tail pipe of the other 105. Even with a sidewinder literaly up the ass, the 105 still made it back.

I read some where that the fuel tanks on the SR-71 aren't completly sealed. so when it's sitting on the runway loaded with fuel it's constatly leaking fuel. When it takes off it re-fuels in flight and when it hits it's cruising speed the metal expands and seals the tanks.

[JsARCLIGHT]

There was one incident in 'Nam with a pair of F-105s. A sidewinder accidently fired from one of the 105s and lodged itself in the tail pipe of the other 105. Even with a sidewinder literaly up the ass, the 105 still made it back.

Wow, now that is rare...

After all, the F-105 got the nickname "THUD" in Vietnam for a reason... they tended to crash more than they landed wheels down.

[F-ZeroOne]

Some bombing trivia thats always got me (fighters get all the attention!). During the early part of World War II, RAF Bomber Command had trouble finding targets. How much trouble?

Well, it was estimated that 33% of bombs dropped were landing within 5 miles of the target.

Those were considered the accurate strikes.

Things, fortunately for the Allies and unfortunately for a a great many Germans, got better later. 617 Squadron - the famous "Dambusters" - eventually recorded an average bombing error of within a hundred yards of the target. Even precision guided munitions today sometimes have trouble being that accurate!

Among the techniques employed was one devised by Leonard Chesire - thats Leonard Chesire, Victoria Cross, among many other things - to deal with small "point targets" like V-1 lanuncing sites. This entailed dive-bombing the sites to ensure maximum accuracy.

Nothing special, you might think.

Except that the dive bombing in this case was done with a Lancaster bomber!

[ewilen]

hm. A couple things to share. First, JsArclight's 1st post had me looking up some obscure stuff about ejection systems, and I came across a very nice history: http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/History.html

The main site is worth a look, too.

Second, in case somebody's never seen it, I offer a (probably apocryphal) selection of "squawk sheet" entries (i.e. communications between aircrews and maintenance personnel)--it appears in many forms, this is the most extensive I could find: http://www.campbells.org/Airplanes/airplaneSquawks.html

Third, a famous incident known as "Pardo's Push"--an F-4 pilot managed to push another damaged F-4 58 miles by contacting the latter's tailhook with his windscreen, so that the crew of the second jet could avoid ejecting over enemy territory. Here's one of the longer accounts: Pardo's Push. Something similar happened during the Korean War with two F-86's, but unfortunately in that case the pilot of the damaged aircraft drowned after ejecting. You can find one account here.

[buddhafabio]

A B-52 can land at almost 20 dergree face to a runway. and has landing gears that at one time were top secret because they can swivel below is a pic of the b52 prototype. and by the way in prototype the b-52 pilot and copilot were arranged like fighter pilots as the copilot sat behind the pilot.

[buddhafabio]

There was one incident in 'Nam with a pair of F-105s. A sidewinder accidently fired from one of the 105s and lodged itself in the tail pipe of the other 105. Even with a sidewinder literaly up the ass, the 105 still made it back.

I read some where that the fuel tanks on the SR-71 aren't completly sealed. so when it's sitting on the runway loaded with fuel it's constatly leaking fuel. When it takes off it re-fuels in flight and when it hits it's cruising speed the metal expands and seals the tanks.

very correct the maintance personell (one of my dads friends) at Kadena said they would were rain coats

[buddhafabio]

One of the largest planes to land on a carrier was the C-130. It happened to the U.S.S. Forrestal. Read up, has video

[Apollo Leader]

Okay here's a "wierd" fact about the F-15.

An Israeli Pilot encounterd an enemy fighter, and proceded to enter somewhat of a dog fight with said enemy, well durring the filght the the enemy plane ended up flying upside down  in relation to the F-15, well for some reason the F-15 and the enemy collided mid air, the enemy went down, but the F-15 went into a barrel roll headed for the ground, well the pilot instead of ejecting as per instinct, he pushed the throttel forward and the plane leveld its self off, well the craft was trailing a huge ammount of smoke from the right side, and i mean enough to compleatly obscure the wing, but the pilot had his wing man to a fly around to check damnage and nothing was noticed except for the large amount of smoke, well anyway the pilot made it back to base and landed smoothly with the exception of the fact that it was at a much higher speed than normal. anyway once the plane landed and the smoke died, the pilots wingman told him to look out the right side of the aircraft.

The F-15's right wing had been shierd off compleatly, the israely airforce couldnt figure out what the hell had just happend and called McDonnel Douglas who was stuned and sent a team of engineers.

well as it turns out while most all aircraft with multiple engines can fly with usualy half knocked out,  the F-15's fuselage actualy produces enough lift that it can fly with only one wing.

True Story.

Here's the real story:

A simulated dogfight training took place between two F-15D's and four A-4N Skyhawks over the skies of the Negev, Israel. The F-15D #957, (nicknamed 'Markia Shchakim', 5 killmarks) was used for the conversion of a new pilot in the squadron. Here is the description of the event as described in "Pressure suit":

"At some point I collided with one of the Skyhawks, at first I didn't realize it. I felt a big strike, and I thought we passed through the jet stream of one of the other aircraft. Before I could react, I saw the big fire ball created by the explosion of the Skyhawk.

The radio started to deliver calls saying that the Skyhawk pilot has ejected, and I understood that the fireball was the Skyhawk, that exploded, and the pilot was ejected automatically.

There was a tremendous fuel stream going out of my wing, and I understood it was badly damaged. The aircraft flew without control in a strange spiral. I reconnected the electric control to the control surfaces, and slowly gained control of the aircraft until I was straight and level again. It was clear to me that I had to eject. When I gained control I said : "Hey, wait, don't eject yet!" No warning light was on and the navigation computer worked as usual; (I just needed a warning light in my panel to indicate that I missed a wing...)." My instructor pilot ordered me to eject.

The wing is a fuel tank, and the fuel indicator showed 0.000 so I assumed that the jet stream sucked all the fuel out of the other tanks. However, I remembered that the valves operate only in one direction, so that I might have enough fuel to get to the nearest airfield and land. I worked like a machine, wasn't scared and didn't worry. All I knew was as long as the sucker flies, I'm gonna stay inside. I started to decrease the airsp! eed, but at that point one wing was not enough. So I went into a spin down and to the right. A second before I decided to eject, I pushed the throttle and lit the afterburner. I gained speed and thus got control of the aircraft again.

Next thing I did was lower the arresting hook. A few seconds later I touched the runway at 260 knots, about twice the recommended speed, and called the tower to erect the emergency recovery net. The hook was torn away from the fuselage because of the high speed, but I managed to stop 10 meters before the net. I turned back to shake the hand of my instructor, who had urged me to eject, and then I saw it for the first time - no wing !!!

The IAF (Israeli Air Force) contacted McDonnell Douglas and asked for information about possibility to land an F-15 with one wing. MD replied that this is aerodynamically impossible, as confirmed by computer simulations... Then they received the photo.... After two months the same F-15 got a new wing and returned to action. Special thanks to Tsahi Ben Ami.

This is what "Flight international" wrote about the incident: "The most outstanding Eagle save was by a pilot from a foreign Air Force".

During air combat training his two-seater F-15 was involved in a mid air collision with an A-4 Skyhawk.

The A-4 crashed, and the Eagle lost its right wing from about 2 ft. outboard. After some confusion between the instructor who said eject, and the student who outranked his instructor and said no, the F-15 was landed at it's desert base. Touching down at 290 knots, the hook was dropped for an approach end engagement. This slowed the F-15 to 100 knots, when the hook weak link sheared, and the aircraft was then braked conventionally.

It is said that the student was later demoted for disobeying his instructor, then promoted for saving the aircraft.

McDonnell Douglas attributes the saving of this aircraft to the amount of lift generated by the engine intake/body and "a hell of a good pilot".

[Apollo Leader]

One of the largest planes to land on a carrier was the C-130. It happened to the U.S.S. Forrestal. Read up, has video

How about this Herc?

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/03/iran.hostage/

plane.lift.lg

[Amped]

Wild recovery pic & story about one of the (few?) SR-71 crashes, this one off the coast of the Phillipines...

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/Luzon.html

[David Hingtgen]

While we're on SR-71's:

The SR-71's normal top speed is limited by the compressor inlet temperature, not drag, thrust, airframe heat, or anything else. Much like the Concorde, it can go as fast as it wants, until a certain "thing" reaches a certain temperature. On the Concorde it's the nose temp, on the SR-71 it's the compressor inlet. It varies depending on local temp, altitude, etc. SR-71's can't go as fast over the tropics (nor can the Concorde) for they are hot enough that even at 60,000ft+ it's still a few degrees warmer than normal, thus dropping max speed a bit. SR-71 (everything about it) is designed for Mach 3.2, to the point that going Mach 3.1 or 3.0 actually decreases range--going slower will actually increase fuel consumption. Real life flights proved that 3.23 was the optimum actual operating speed. Normal max is 3.3, unless you plan on destroying some expensive parts.

Now, I have conflicting numbers from sources I trust, that say either 3.37 (intakes) or 3.5 (wings) is when the bow wave from the nose directly impacts the airframe, which is THE limit that you utterly can't go past without serious damage. The difference could come from A-12 vs SR-71 noses, or even different types of SR-71 noses. (There's lots of different ones, they could be changed every mission for different equipment).

Now, one A-12 is said to have reached Mach 3.5 and landed safely but had serious damage. Also one SR-71 is said to have hit 3.5 literally running away from SAM's and MiG-25's over Libya, also with serious damage and making an emergency landing. (Mildenhall?)

So I give credence to 3.5 as being the absolute limit for an SR-71.

[buddhafabio]

Wild recovery pic & story about one of the (few?) SR-71 crashes, this one off the coast of the Phillipines...

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/Luzon.html

actually there were alot of SR-71 crashes during devlopment

the bird you mention was flown out of Kadena, it engine ceased and the rso was killed but the link says otherwise humm

Edited July 30, 2004 by buddhafabio

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Huh? F-15s' have arrestor hooks????

[David Hingtgen]

Most planes do, for exactly the reason that F-15 used it: a heavily damaged aircraft probably isn't going to be able to make a normal landing. And even if it could, the odds of the brakes working aren't good (assuming you've got massive hydraulic system leakage/damage from losing a wing). Even F-117's have a hook. It's just that F-14's etc have a MUCH stronger one as it's going to be used all the time, as opposed to once.

F-15/16/etc hooks are often used as hold-backs for engine run-ups, that's actually the best time to see one.

[Druna Skass]

Most planes do, for exactly the reason that F-15 used it: a heavily damaged aircraft probably isn't going to be able to make a normal landing. And even if it could, the odds of the brakes working aren't good (assuming you've got massive hydraulic system leakage/damage from losing a wing). Even F-117's have a hook. It's just that F-14's etc have a MUCH stronger one as it's going to be used all the time, as opposed to once.

F-15/16/etc hooks are often used as hold-backs for engine run-ups, that's actually the best time to see one.

Would land based aircraft with a hook be able to land on a carrier in an emergency?

[David Hingtgen]

No. They land WAY too fast, and would snap their gear struts in half from the impact. Plus the fact that an F-15 pilot etc flat-out wouldn't have the training to land on a carrier. (or more actually, they wouldn't let anyone try, because if you miss or screw up, you'll probably kill several hundred people on deck and destroy about a billion dollar's worth of aircraft in a fiery explosion)

[buddhafabio]

thats is also the reason they try to divert damaged naval aircraft to emergancy alternate airfields