Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 9, 2004 Author Share Posted October 9, 2004 hikasru whats da range on dat sucka? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 Royal Thai AF selects Saab Gripen Thailand picks Swedish fighters over Russia's Fri Oct 8, 2004 09:05 AM ET BANGKOK, Oct 8 (Reuters) - Thailand has picked a Swedish/ British consortium over a Russian firm to replace its ageing fleet of 16 American-made F-5 fighters, a deal that could be worth $230 million, the Thai air force chief said on Friday. A Swedish government delegation would come to Thailand this month to discuss details of a barter trade deal that could swap Swedish fighters for Thai agriculture products, Air Chief Marshall Kongsak Wantana told reporters. "We have decided to pick JAS 39 Gripen fighters to replace our F-5 fleet," Kongsak said. "The Swedish government will send a delegation in the next one or two weeks to talk with our Commerce Ministry officials to seek a conclusion to the deal," he said. In September, Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra told Swedish counterpart Goran Persson Thailand would buy Swedish fighter jets only if Sweden agreed to buy agricultural products in exchange. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?t...storyID=6452975 Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST: Quote, Profile, Research) is eager to secure a contract to sell about 20 JAS 39 Gripen fighters, made with Britain's BAE (BA.L: Quote, Profile, Research) Systems, to the Thai air force and Thaksin said he was ready to buy "whenever the Swedish company can deliver". But Persson said at a joint news conference with Thaksin in Stockholm he could provide the right political conditions for such a deal only by improving bilateral economic relations through a new working group on trade. Kongsak said the jets would be sold at a "friendly" price on a government-to-government contract and would cost about 600 million baht ($14 million) each, putting the bill at 9.6 billion baht ($230 million). Kongsak said the air force decided against Russia's Sukhoi Su-30 because Thailand had never used Russian warplanes. Russia's Vedomosti business daily said in August Thailand wanted to buy at least six Sukhoi Su-30s worth $200 million. It quoted a source close to Russia's arms trade authority as saying Thailand, which has equipped its air force with U.S. fighters, had sent a defence delegation to Russia to Irkut (IRKT.RTS: Quote, Profile, Research) , which has a licence to produce the Su-30. Su-30s, together with MiGs, form the backbone of Russia's arms trade and go mainly to Southeast Asia, where Indonesia, Vietnam and Malaysia have long been buyers. ($1=41.41 baht) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 9, 2004 Author Share Posted October 9, 2004 Friggn geniuses!! and CHeap!! Come on philippines let us fololow our thai brethren and REPLACE OUR F-5'S JESUS CHRIST HOW COME THAT IS OUR ONLY HIGH CLASS FIGHTER! AAHHHHHHHH Ya know from what I understand, the flanker exported is considerably cheap compared to exported US teen fighters. Hikaru you got the range on A2A novator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 hikasru whats da range on dat sucka? Just got posted....am having some internet trouble...some spyware got into my system Anyway here are the specs for the AAM-L Length: 7.4m Diameter: 510mm Weight: 750kg Height of target: 3m-30000m Warhead: HE frag (directional effect) Warhead weight: 50kg Guidance: active radar + inertial Range: up to 400km Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-ZeroOne Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 How far?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 [A Swedish government delegation would come to Thailand this month to discuss details of a barter trade deal that could swap Swedish fighters for Thai agriculture products, Air Chief Marshall Kongsak Wantana told reporters.[...] In September, Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra told Swedish counterpart Goran Persson Thailand would buy Swedish fighter jets only if Sweden agreed to buy agricultural products in exchange. [...] But Persson said at a joint news conference with Thaksin in Stockholm he could provide the right political conditions for such a deal only by improving bilateral economic relations through a new working group on trade. Boy, that's a lot of rice and exotic fruit. I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that certain members of the EU (esp. France) have tended to try to protect fruit growers in Africa, against the wishes of consumers who like bananas from Latin America..and I'm guessing mango/guava/jackfruit/durian from SE Asia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 10, 2004 Author Share Posted October 10, 2004 guys what is the maximum operational range of the phoenix? Is it less than the novator? The novator is rather big and I believe only 3 can be carried on a flanker before taking on more drag and becoming cumbersome. And well..if the Su-33 cna Su-32IFN can carry teh novator......and if its longer range than phoenix.. YUP I was right super hornet just ain't cuttin' it as a tomcat successor! You can't possibly tell me the shornet will be able to lick off a AMRAAM shot before the novator nails it. And novators come in ASM version too.....so yea...GOOD luck to the super hornet driver. And then close in the SU fighters are deadly as is and well..... anyways on F-16.net there are heated debates about the shornet going against sukhois and doing carrier defense. One of the main arguments being "least the tomcat has speed to get the fight onto its own terms" which I believe. Most think the navyu DOES need the shornet as a long range attacker...but not to replace the tomcat in air superiority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Range for AIM-54C Phoenix is 150 km. Novator's 400km range is a bit optimistic in my opinion...would be hard to hit a fighter size target at such range. I thinks its of of an AWACS killer type weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 10, 2004 Author Share Posted October 10, 2004 When I first read about it years back, it was actually nicknamed AWACs kiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 The expected "Phoenix replacement" is to be either a boosted AMRAAM, or an AMRAAM with Meteor-style ramjets. Either way, Super Hornet gets it first, since they NEED a long-range missile with the Phoenix gone. And Tomcats still can maintain higher ingress and egress speeds with the same bombload as a Shornet, and don't need to tank on the way home either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight26 Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Ah yes the FAMRAAM, the AMRAAM with ramjets, not the greatest idea in my book, but the closest thing to a phoenix replacement without a brand new full up design being approved. Man if only the navy leadership had a brain we would either 1: have the Tomcat-2000, 2: a super hornet that was better designed, to arry phoenix, have larger engines and longer range, or 3: have a whole new design that would be a true successor to the tomcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nied Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 guys what is the maximum operational range of the phoenix? Is it less than the novator? The novator is rather big and I believe only 3 can be carried on a flanker before taking on more drag and becoming cumbersome. And well..if the Su-33 cna Su-32IFN can carry teh novator......and if its longer range than phoenix..YUP I was right super hornet just ain't cuttin' it as a tomcat successor! You can't possibly tell me the shornet will be able to lick off a AMRAAM shot before the novator nails it. And novators come in ASM version too.....so yea...GOOD luck to the super hornet driver. And then close in the SU fighters are deadly as is and well..... anyways on F-16.net there are heated debates about the shornet going against sukhois and doing carrier defense. One of the main arguments being "least the tomcat has speed to get the fight onto its own terms" which I believe. Most think the navyu DOES need the shornet as a long range attacker...but not to replace the tomcat in air superiority. While the Novator does have extremely long range I doubt it would be effective against a small fighter like the Rhino. The Novator is designed to take down high value air targets like AWACs and JSTARs without the launch aircraft having to penetrate the heavy defenses such targets would have. Performance wise it is similar to the Pheonix in that they're both designed to take down large unmaneuverable targets from extreme distances (the novator optimized for larger targets and longer distances while the Pheonix for big heavy bombers). The problem is the the Pheonix was never intended to take out fighters, and while the data is still a closely gaurded secret it is the general beleif among the aviatoin comunity that the Pheonix is not the best long range anti-fighter weapon (that award would be a tossup between the AMRAAM the R-77 or the Meteor). So while a Rhino might have to fear a Novator armed Sukhoi it's more because it would pose a big threat to the E-2 feeding it orders than to itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nied Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Ah yes the FAMRAAM, the AMRAAM with ramjets, not the greatest idea in my book, but the closest thing to a phoenix replacement without a brand new full up design being approved. Man if only the navy leadership had a brain we would either 1: have the Tomcat-2000, 2: a super hornet that was better designed, to arry phoenix, have larger engines and longer range, or 3: have a whole new design that would be a true successor to the tomcat. Well the FMRAAM isn't too different than the AAAM which was the original Phoenix replacement (other than the fact that IIRC the AAAM was could only be carried by aircraft cleared for the Phoenix while the FMRAAM is designed to be carried by anything cleared for the AMRAAM). As for the Rhino I agree that it is underpowered, but it's nothing a quick re-engineing couldn't fix. Iv'e been looking at the F135/6 and while the specs are tough to find (I had to measure a cut away diagram of the F-35 to get it's length) it does look like it would fit into the Shornet without much trouble (nearly 40,000 lbs of thrust would be a big improvement over the F414's anemic 22,000 lbs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight26 Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Man I thought I knew every fighter nickname, but what the heck is the RHino? Last plane I heard that one attached to, besides the Hammerhead from SA:AB, was the Phantom, one of its many nicknames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 10, 2004 Author Share Posted October 10, 2004 it should stay with the phantom. I mean i lke the growler for the EA-18 but the shortnet should be called something like the mosquito or dragonfly. Better fitting name. or Hummingbird. All emphasize long parts, and the shornets got a long nose. so is FRAAm still in development? and how much bigger is it compared to AMRAAM? And would the navy even consider upping the engines to F136? and would that up fuel consumption? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Sewer Hornet has no business taking the Phantom's nickname. Meteor looks to be about the same length as the Slammer. How bout a Sewer Hornet armed with 10 FMRAAM taking on the role as mobile sam site ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nied Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 Man I thought I knew every fighter nickname, but what the heck is the RHino? Last plane I heard that one attached to, besides the Hammerhead from SA:AB, was the Phantom, one of its many nicknames. Rhino Is the Super Hornet. The name was aparently given by deck crews to avoid confusion with the legacy Hornet. Aparently it refers to the IFF anteana bump on the nose (the Rhino's horn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 China fan impression of the new J-12 fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retracting Head Ter Ter Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 400km!!!!!? Is that only when its launched from high alt and speed at low alt targets? poo! 400km! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight26 Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 It's an F-22 on crack, but really I doubt the current Chinese aviation industry could turn out an aircraft like that, lets face it most chinese aviation designs are just rip offs or production liscences from other countries. I think they have maybe turned out two unique designs, that weren't oversized "kit bashes" of other aircraft, and both of those were garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 10, 2004 Author Share Posted October 10, 2004 That thing looks way too fan influenced. I mean I doubt the J-12 wopuld look anything like that. With that said I think its a great CG but a bit too farfetched, I agree a lot with knight. SOme of the chinese designs just SUCK IMHO. ok guys knife fight opinion time!!! SU-30MKI vs F/A-18F rhino knife fight(no rearward firing missles or AIM-9X) just simple archer missles. guns and AIM-9Ls. discuss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 (edited) Nied---been wondering where you were! Haven't seen a post from you in a while. Make it to Oceana's show? J-12: I actually like how it looks. From the side, very nice, almost YF-23-esque. From above--better than JSF by far, better than the F-22 by a bit. Looking at it more--I don't know if it'll fly. Tail-less non-delta? That much reverse sweep on the wing trailing edge with that much structure ahead of the wings, and with such a broad, non-lift-producing fuselage (it's not even blended wing/body)---I doubt the center of gravity and center of lift will allow a tailless design, even with FBW. And it doesn't really have LEX's or a chine, it's just got really wide fat intakes on the side. Finally---close the main gear doors, no need to let them just hang open like that--massive drag. MKI vs Shornet: Su-30MKI. AA-11's are far better than AIM-9M's, and could easily be better than the AIM-9X. And it's got a 30mm cannon, and can point its nose like no other plane. Edited October 10, 2004 by David Hingtgen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight26 Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 The Su-30MKI would own the Super Hornet, lets face it, thrust vectoring, the Archer (which has off bore sighting capabilities). the Gsh-301 (highly accurate and can be set to autofire as soon as it has a good firing solution.) Besides the Su-30 MKI would also have the advantage in being inherently more manueverable with a better thrust to weight ratio and the ability regain lost energy better, as well as keep up its energy more, the Super Hornet bleeds energy in a turn like you wouldn't believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Don't you think 611 looks like the one in AFDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 eliminated design looks best. 611 is in AFDDS I believe. It's one of ruth's planes but looks kind of cheap. OK guys. Being that the kuznetsov or whichever carrier russia has has SU-33.... SU-33 vs F/A-18F Su-33=less capable than MKI but...perhaps better than SU-27? F/A-18F=drag hore but great striker, inefficient tomcat replacement for air superiority. Someone mentioned an all new plane meant for fleet defense or upgraded tomcats for fleet defense, I say all new plane in vein of stealth and tomcat capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 @Shin, David Can you guys find/come up with any screenshots for the 611 from AFDS ? If China ever builds it expect to see a rise in F-22A procurement. The Su-33 potrayed in LOMAC is actually wishful thinking since the Flanker doesn't have the modifications to carry most of the guided weapons depicted. The Su-33 actually lost agility due to its increased weight the engines not providing much increase inm thrust. The Admiral Kuznetsov is currently at port. Just like the bulk of the Russian Navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 AFAIK, Su-33 has same engines as standard Su-27. Improved engines rumored for the later-built ones, but no confirmation. And as said--more weight/drag. However, it does have canards which are an automatic bonus. Plus, it has a wholly redesigned roll-control system. Most Flankers have a wing identical to an F-16 for control---one big LE flap, and one big trailing edge flaperon. Su-33's have inboard flaps, center flaperons (though more flap-like than most flaperons), and outboard flaperons. Can mix and match as necessary for roll/lift generation. Remember, Su-33 is air-to-air only, it's optimized for dogfights, and has 2 more underwing pylons than the others to have 8 AA-10's and 4 AA-11's as the standard load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 Hmm. THen I gues this means the SU-33 still got a chance against the F/A-18F. Not as good as SU-30MKI but still a threat. OK . MIg-29K vs F/A-18F. both carrier borne, and MIG-29 is light to midweight size class. and while we are at it. TOrnado F.3 ADV vs F-4E phantom II or F-4 Kurnass 2000(hammer) Both interceptors, both with guns. One designed later than other. WHo would win in knife fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 (edited) Come guys come up with some J-12 screenshots... Shin You didn't specify the conditions... The MiG-29K is likely to lose most engagements with the F/A-18F since the shitnet has 1. Superior engines, Airframe life. 2. Better Radar, EW Suite, 3 More weopon load and hard points. F-18F interms of Weopons is more comparable to Flanker. MIG-29K is limited to 5500KG at best. MIG has advantage interms of agility but in presence of AIM-9X, AIM-120D and Hawkeye 2000. This is not even a contest. as for the Tornado ADv vs F-4E i think the Tornado has slightly better cockpit visibility, swing wings but less gun ammo yet the single Mauser BK27 is a more hard heating weapon. The Phantom's M61A1 has more ammunition and better thrust to weight ratio. The Tornado is still a heavy interceptor even without a full warload. I think the Phantom has a slight edge here. If Kurnass had been rewired it would be much lighter than the stock F-4E so Kurnass hands down. Edited October 11, 2004 by hellohikaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 Well both fights as knife fight close in. ADV F.3 has automatic wingsweep though I presume nowhere near as good as tomcat. Why I chose the phantom match? In RAF service the F.3 replaced the phantom, and I often wondered why folks usually say the tornado is not a good dogfighter. I have no doubt the eurofighter can whup its ass but yea. Anyhoo how about the Eurofighter, does it have an internal gun still? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 (edited) All the German, Spanish, Italian, Austrian and some of the British Eurofighters have a working internal Mauser 27mm gun. Some of the British planes that don't have the working gun retains it because it cause money to add concrete. Talk about stupidity. Shin in case you didn't know in a mock dogfight they pitted the F3 ADV vs the BAC Lightning, and the Lightning really gave the Tornado a good kick up its asz...i am not even going to start comparisons with other fighters safe for other large lumbering interceptors. Edited October 11, 2004 by hellohikaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Tornado ADV's not a good dogfighter because: 1. Wingsweep doesn't have "infinite" positions like the F-14. It has 4 positions--fully swept, fully unswept, and 2 more inbetween. 2. It's a heavy bomber with a new nose. 3. Low engine power, especially at high altitude. Again, the airframe and engines were designed for low-level flight. 4. Tremendous drag. Same problem as the F-111 had---the back end produces WAY more drag than calculated/expected. Really no fix for that. Back-end drag is hard to predict, especially when the back end just "stops". Both the F-14 and Flanker have a lot of rear fuselage between/behind the nozzles to prevent this--adds a bit of weight, but prevents the possibility of finding 30% more drag than you expected... All in all, the Tornado ADV (though I love the design) is little more than a fighter bomber with an air-to-air radar and medium-range missiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 Hmm....I guess it is only fair to compare it to the thunderchief then. I love both! Tornado to me is aweome but I guess it was a pipe dream to think it could mingle with smaler migs. HIkaru I did read a magazine last week talking about the lightnings nailing the newly formed tornado sqns back in the 80s on a constant basis. My fav tornado is the IDS and ECR anyways so least its good for someting lol. I just think it is a beautiful design. Seeing it on discovery channel on that wings channel, inspired a lot in me. It was just wonderful always seeing it in forest camo coming down at high speed with full bomb load. BTW why was the gun not implemented in some british eurofighters? What the hell are they thinking? For that matter will future typhoons have the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellohikaru Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I know it not a good source for a comparison but in the DI flight sim Tornado i have tried to dogfight with the other fighters and only had some luck against the Foxhound. Of course the sim didn't feature any auto-wing sweep either. You had to do it manually. The ADV is currently taking on a new role as a supplement to the ECR...armed with ALARM ARMs. The IDS GR1 camo was good and effective but as the RAF had switched to medium altitude operations it spots a grey low-vis camo very similar to the ADV. Have you watch the Area 88 OAV ? In Act III you see Nguyen Van Chom flying a F-105D as a fighter. He used boom and zoom tactics to advantage and bagged a bunch of AV-8A Harriers. Fun stuff. The Tornado is still too heavy to do this plus what DH just mention engines more optimised for low-level economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 (edited) I don't think the ADV has auto-sweep, only the IDS does. As you can imagine, manually selecting from 4 positions is far inferior to the F-14's constantly changing infinite positions. ADV with ALARM: often said to be "Finally, a role the ADV can be good at!" BTW--anyone know if the ADV is in AC5? I've always wanted it much more than the IDS. Would be nice to have, maybe inbetween the F-16 and F-18 purchases, instead of a Mirage 2000 or something. Edited October 11, 2004 by David Hingtgen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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