Aircraft VS super thread!

[VF19]

One thing they havent thought of for anti air is the conept of the Grazer round used in the M16kurz. A plastic shell filled with buckshot, which bursts on impact. Scale that up to 30mm, and god knows what it'd do.

[hellohikaru]

One thing they havent thought of for anti air is the conept of the Grazer round used in the M16kurz. A plastic shell filled with buckshot, which bursts on impact. Scale that up to 30mm, and god knows what it'd do.

I think they tested a missile that explodes into fragments before the hit the fighter. What is the point of using buckshots when the weapons they have now are already so lethal.

[Hurricane29]

They already have a munition like that for anti-personal. It would be more effective to just take the fighter out in one hit from a convetional missle.

[VF19]

Yes, the Grazer round. It's already in use.

What I meant was the same round in a higher caliber for anti air use.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

came up with some interesting battle things....

F-11F tiger vs F-8J knife fight

F-11F vs F-4S knife fight no gun only winders.

Tornado ADV vs MIG-21BIS knife fight.

F-15K vs Su-30MKI intercept role. (novator or adder might outrange AMRAAM but I could the F-15K be more powerful and reach target sooner? ). Medium range AAM.

F-16A or block 30 F-16C(whichever david qouted as the a2a optimized version) vs Su-30 MKI knife fight no HMS targetting, just heat seekers and guns.

anti radar battle portion

EA-6B vs F-4G wild weasel vs F-105G wild weasel vs TORnado ECR vs EA-18G Growler vs Viggen ECM

which is the best for anti radar?

I think growlers got best self defense and offensive capability, prowler has more crew so more reliability/effetiveness? TOrnado ECR and viggen may take it for speed. Either way I think it is an interesting discussion.

[David Hingtgen]

I don't recall the F-11 being all that wonderful. I vote for F-8 and F-4.

ADV vs MiG-21: MiG-21. ADV is NOT a fighter. Interceptor-only. Think MiG-25.

F-15K vs Su-30MKI: MKI

F-16C B.30 vs MKI: If it's the "knife-fight in a phone booth" scenario, I'd vote for F-16. At that range, turn radius (and sheer "smallness of airframe" )actually may be more important than rate or even energy. If the fight gets at all vertical, I go for MKI. F-16's a better fighter when faster (compared to say a Hornet), but the MKI certainly rules the slow end.

Best anti-radar plane is the EF-111, and it is fairly manueverable. (if you want jamming, not neccessarily destruction of the radar) Boxy fuselage, skinny wings, optimized for low-level missions, one big v.stab, draggy, underpowered, swing-wings: probably pretty close to the Tornado in agility. And by FAR the fastest. Heck, can easily outrun most fighters.

Edited October 25, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Nied]

One thing they havent thought of for anti air is the conept of the Grazer round used in the M16kurz. A plastic shell filled with buckshot, which bursts on impact. Scale that up to 30mm, and god knows what it'd do.

Oerlikon is working on a type of ammo that explodes a few meters before hitting it's target, showering it with a shotgun like blast of shrapnel. It's called an AHEAD round, aparently Kawamori liked the idea since the compendium lists lists the VF-0 as carrying AHEAD ammo.

[hellohikaru]

The Tornado ADV is not really like the MiG-25. It can't fly as high and certainly can't climb as fast. It did enjoy an excellent rate of role.

The engines aren't powerful enough at higher altititudes..being optimised for low-level work but provided good economy which the RAF needed for long range patrols over the atlantic.

But ADV handles very well at low level even without TFR...have the Fishbed follow that

[David Hingtgen]

My point was that while it's technically a fighter, it sure isn't manueverable when going high and fast, and is pretty much only a straight-line BVR-only interceptor.

Tornados are unbeatable down-low, and can out-run and out-turn most anything. But at high altitude--slow, underpowered, not very agile.

Though the F-111 will still outrun it at low-altitude. Don't know if it can out-turn it.

[Coota0]

EA-6B vs F-4G wild weasel vs F-105G wild weasel vs TORnado ECR vs EA-18G Growler vs Viggen ECM

which is the best for anti radar?

EA-6 or EA-18 (not being in service yet it's hard to decide) I do know that the EA-18 is using a lot of the same pods as the EA-6 (most are to be updated in the next few years) and the Avionics on the EA-18 blow everything else outta the water, plus good low level all weather capabilities, a smaller crew that can do the same job, a faster more manuvarable aircraft, and the ability to actually defend yourself if need be.

[Warmaker]

One of my friends at work, a Sailor who's been an Electrician for USN EA-6Bs, is still a huge fan of those worn down workhorses. When I told him that the Super Hornet will be taking over the Prowlers' role, he seriously looked heartbroken.

[hellohikaru]

Ever wondered why you never see pics of Tornadoes with their wings swept back on the ground ?

A Tornado keeper mentioned that the plane will see on its tail unless some sort of stand is placed under it.

The IDS Tornadoes always seem to carry their ECM/Expendibles in pods on the outermost pylons while the ADV is full internal. I wonder why can they just build the ECM into the IDS plane.

BTW what do you guys think about the Hawk 200 series....they don't have reheat but have uprated engines and a new combat wing from the 100 Series. It has the APG-66H radar which is similar to that use in the F-16A but with a slightly smaller antenna. Weapons include a 30mm gun pod, AIM-9P-4/L, Mk. 80 bombs, Cluster Bombs and Matra 155 rockets. Can also be equipped for Skyflash and LGBs.

Interesting thing is that the Hawk 200 had 25mm ADEN guns as an option but i think its probably no longer available since the ADEN got canned. Mauser 27 is about the same size though.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

lol. Well warmaker I gues he will be happy when he finds out its a lot less work to keep it up and flying compared to the prowler. The prowler is just badass though...maybe its my fascination with A-6B's ever since flight of the intruder, nmaybe because its a wild weasel type intruder with 4 crew members...either way it just looks cool and unique and i love what it does.

hmmm hellohikaru now that you bring up the hawk....

A-4AR skyhawk(argentina?) vs Hawk 200

AR has hornet engine. ANd same radar as hawk i believe.

[hellohikaru]

I think the Hawk 200 is a waste of money. It cost about 24 million each which i could spent on a F-16A/B.

When compared with the A-4AR which probably cost about 1/3 of the Hawk 200...i am going for the upgraded Super Skyhawk. Not only is the payload smaller but the range is less and it is very vulnerable to anything more than manpads. OTOH the Hawk is better in a dogfight than the Skyhawk.

The Hawk 200 may be a good CAS/COIN/Point Air Defence plane but cost too much for what it can offer.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Is AR still being used? BTW heres a good page.

skyhawk.org. Anyone know any good tomcat sites besides MATS or any good crusader sites? im still kicking myself in the ass for not buying rear admiral gilchrist's crusader book. UGH. Man that book ruled. It was thicker than his tomcat book too!! AND gloss paper!

Anyone know if the Super crusader III was ever tested for DACM? I want to know how it faired against the phantom in a knife fight. And against the original crusader.

[David Hingtgen]

Tomcat Alley: http://www.topedge.com/alley/alley.htm

The Gunfighter's Page: http://www.cloudnet.com/~djohnson/index.html Be SURE to read all the records set.

[hellohikaru]

Admiral Gilchrist who wrote an article criticising stealth but i am biased so i enjoyed that article.

Anyway the A-4AR is still in service with the Argentinean AF. Ex-A-4M BTW with ARBS replace with the APG-66. OA-4AR is the two seater version.

Which version of the Phantom do you wanna compare ?

I think the Crusader will owned it except perhaps in the vertical in most cases. Too bad they never fully tested the Super Crusader but test pilots were confident Mach 3 was attainable. Had Sparrow armament btw.

[hellohikaru]

@David Hintgen

How do the rate the Collect-Aire models in terms of quality and accuracy ?

http://www.collectaire.com/models.html

[Zentrandude]

One thing they havent thought of for anti air is the conept of the Grazer round used in the M16kurz. A plastic shell filled with buckshot, which bursts on impact. Scale that up to 30mm, and god knows what it'd do.

I think they tested a missile that explodes into fragments before the hit the fighter. What is the point of using buckshots when the weapons they have now are already so lethal.

if i remember my missile info correctly from the ammo techs. most if not all air to air missiles explode into fragments to shread skin. basicly a guided grenade with a rocket.

i might be wrong since its been awhile since i brushed up on missile tech.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

to larify...

F-8 Crusader III vs F-4S phantom II knife fight.

The F-8 had provision for 4 guns and sparrow/winder armnament. And if it could go mach 3 I have a feel;ing it might be able to take the fight vertical as well. I often wonder how the supersader did in a turn fight and test pilots say the phantom is trucky in comparison @ the gunfighters page/.

[David Hingtgen]

I really don't know much about collect-aire models, never seen one myself nor read a detailed review. I have been VERY curious about their YF-23 though, as it's the only 1/48 model, and is far more accurate/detailed than the 1/72 plastic ones out there. I have some pics of that one if you'd like to see what their kits are like.

Semi-OT note: their YF-23 kit also includes some fantasy decals for a 8FW F-23A Wolfpack, in the old-style markings---so you could ALMOST make a "Wardogs" F-23 from AC5.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

their Crusader III kit is BEAUTIFUL. SOme people say the plane itself is ugly but I think its a better lookin titmachine than the regular crusader. Awesomeness.

So guys any takers?

F-8 Crusader III(supergator) vs F-4S phantom II knife fight

[hellohikaru]

Yes David i would love to see the picture of their Black Widow.

Any opening weapons bay ?

It does cost an arm and a leg doesn't it.

[hellohikaru]

Based on what i read about the Super Gator(F8U-3) i tend to agree with Shin that it will beat Phantom(any variant). That beast is extremely powerful. Maybe the Navy didn't like its complexities ..Or maybe the looks ?

I don't think it will win any beauty contest though. Reminds me of 2 things the X-32 and the Goblin Shark(an actual species).

Edited October 26, 2004 by hellohikaru

[Knight26]

I believe the primary reasons behind the navy's decision to go with the F-4 above the SUper Crusader were:

1) Twin engine for better survivability

2) Two man crew, which was considered essential, and was, for using the Sparrow and other medium to long range ordnance

3) Looks, the Super Gator was not a pretty plane, almost made the PHantom pretty

4) Carrying capacity, the super gator did not have the carrying capability, IIRC, of the phantom

5) Concerns about the ventral fins striking the carrier deck

6) The navy, and all US fighter forces in general, were trying to get away from the gun fighters and wanted strictly missile birds, until that proved a bad idea, so an interceptor based off of a gunfighter would not have been acceptable to the admirality.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I disagree guys, I think the super gator is BEAUTIFUL. I mean look at it. It screams "ASSKICKER" to me. I just tend to think the phantom was picked mainly due to 2 engines and 2 crew. Howeber I also think politics played a role ,much like the YF-23 and F-14 getting shafted in favor of the F-22 and the Super bug.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Any pics of the Super Crusader on the ground with gear deployed?

How do those big fins not scrap the floor? Esp on landing?

[David Hingtgen]

The Crusader III's ventral fins could fold horizontal. F-14 was originally to have similar ventral fins.

Collect-Aire YF-23: has open weapons bay. Canopy is vac-formed. A few white metal bits. (gear, missile trapeze). All flaps/ailerons are separate, if you want to position them.

Here's a belly shot, the whole kit is pretty much top/bottom/radome/rudders. This is like "the" seam in the kit when the two main halves are together.

Edited October 27, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[David Hingtgen]

It does have full intake trunking and full exhaust trenches, but the pic's not very good. (They're separate pieces inserted into the main fuselage pieces). Here's the cockpit, minus the seat (the seat is your standard F-15 seat).

[hellohikaru]

Of course politics play a role as always. Vought never had a strong support compared with MDC or Grumman those days.

I see no reason why the Super Crusader cannot operate side by side with the F-4.

Heck would have given the Navy with a better photo recon plane than both Tarps and Vigilante.

BTW here is the photo of the Super Crusader on the ground. Ventral fin is folded horizontal outwards.

Edited October 27, 2004 by hellohikaru

[hellohikaru]

Here is the artist concept of a trio of Super Gators climbing. The J75 engine allows it to reach Mach 3. Notice the Sparrow recessed mounted in the centerline, which require the nosewhell to be offset to starboard.

[hellohikaru]

This one just for your laughter. Behold the Goblin Shark.

[hellohikaru]

@David

That F-23 rocks...where did they get pictures of the cockpit is it accurate ?

And any idea how a production F-23A would have looked like ?

[David Hingtgen]

There was apparently one good cockpit photo in a magazine I don't have. That kit looks close to the Italeri one (just more detailed) so I presume it's correct. And the real ones are always going in and out of storage, covered and uncovered canopy, etc. Might have just photographed the real thing. (I think they did for much of it, #2 is usually viewable, but not at the moment)

F-23A would have been about 2 feet longer to add a Sidewinder bay ahead of the main bay, a gun on the starboard side, and have smaller exhaust trenches/nacelles, possibly making the whole back end smaller.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hellohikaru, where did you find the super sader pics? Gunfighter.net doesnt have many!!!

Man the best views I had of the super sader was on that wings episode about the crusader. That episode ROCKED. God I love this plane. One of my plane designs for a comic I am working on is actually influenced a whole lot by the crusader and super sader. People may think its ugly but I think it is sexy as hell. I mean look at it. Angles everywhere, sharp nose. Drool. I wonder if it could outturn a regular crusader..its certainly got enough thrust too....