Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[JB0]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle's Technology "Macross Galaxy Fleet Technology" (a Macross Frontier movie one) suggests the New UN Gov't was worried the Zentradi might use cyborg tech to become more of a threat if development wasn't carefully supervised and restricted.  Basically, the didn't want Zentradi cyborg supersoldiers in the next Zentradi riot.

That's a more boring explanation.

[Seto Kaiba]

38 minutes ago, JB0 said:

That's a more boring explanation.

It's more or less the same as your hypothesis... just slightly narrower in scope since the New UN Gov't initially apparently didn't consider more civil war a possibility. 

[pengbuzz]

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Frontier and later works use the term "implant" as a generic/catch-all term for any kind of cybernetic implant.

Both the series proper and supplemental material indicate that there are laws governing the use of implant technology both at the local government level and the central New UN Government level.  The New UN Government imposed strict regulations and restrictions on cybernetics research after the First Space War in order to keep humanity's cybernetics research focused on humane and ethically-sound medical applications and outlaw research aimed at weaponizing cyborgs.

The kind of implants that are legal everywhere (incl. Frontier) are medically-necessary organ and limb replacements.  The kind of thing used to repair catastrophic injuries like the loss of a limb or an eye.  The few examples we've seen suggest that these implants don't exceed the performance of the original human body parts they replaced and look visibly artificial.  (Macross R's Oscar Brauhitsch has a cybernetic arm, which looks more like Ed's automail arm from Fullmetal Alchemist than a convincing counterfeit human arm.)  The restrictions on elective implants seem to have been relaxed a little c. the late 2040s, since that's when we see the Macross Galaxy fleet change its local laws to explicitly permit elective implant surgery for things like "the internet in your brain" multimedia/network implants.  We've seen a few wealthy and well-connected folks living elsewhere also have those implants, so presumably they were legalized in other places as well after restrictions were relaxed.  

Frontier's ban on all but medically necessary implants is supposedly driven mainly by the fleet's bioplant environment system which recycles all organic material.  Implants aren't biodegradable/recyclable after all, and would have to be manually removed from the body before processing could take place.

Summing up... Frontier, Uroboros, etc. are probably far more representative of the galactic norm on cybernetics.  You might get a couple rich idiots who paid a fortune to get their brains hooked up to the WiFi, but most people are in factory condition.

One example I can think of is Col. Johnson's artificial leg, which he was reconnecting while lecturing Lt. Dyson about "stupidity" in Macross Plus:

(Timestamp: 18:02)

It looked like the leg was built to look like a boot, but I cannot quite tell.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

One example I can think of is Col. Johnson's artificial leg, which he was reconnecting while lecturing Lt. Dyson about "stupidity" in Macross Plus:

Y'know, I'd always assumed that Millard Johnson's prosthetic leg in Macross Plus was a conventional prosthesis... but it appears you are correct.  His Macross Chronicle Character Sheet explicitly refers to his artificial leg as a "robotic prosthetic".

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Y'know, I'd always assumed that Millard Johnson's prosthetic leg in Macross Plus was a conventional prosthesis... but it appears you are correct.  His Macross Chronicle Character Sheet explicitly refers to his artificial leg as a "robotic prosthetic".

I didn't even know it was robotic; I wouldn't even call that a "lucky guess" so much as Macross Chronicle revealing something we didn't know. I just mentioned it in passing over Macross and replacement limbs/ implants. With that revealed, I suppose he has a post implanted that the leg attaches to and allows for some dexterity/ feel?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

I didn't even know it was robotic; I wouldn't even call that a "lucky guess" so much as Macross Chronicle revealing something we didn't know. I just mentioned it in passing over Macross and replacement limbs/ implants. With that revealed, I suppose he has a post implanted that the leg attaches to and allows for some dexterity/ feel?

While I was thinking on this one I did a bit of research, and it turned out to be quite a rabbit hole when it comes to technologies for improving medical prosthetics.

Col. Johnson's artificial leg is described as a "robotic prosthetic" limb rather than a cybernetic one.  There's apparently a key distinction there in terms of how the prothesis is being controlled.  Cybernetic prosthetics would be directly integrated into the nervous system and controlled like a biological limb.  Robotic prosthetics, on the other hand, are indirectly monitoring motor nerves via EMG sensors, via magnets implanted in the muscles themselves, or using computer models to guess what the correct posture is instead of working like a biological limb.

So it sounds like Millard's leg is not actually tied into his nervous system... which explains why that was a career-ending injury.  It's enough to let him walk normally, but he likely doesn't have any feeling in that leg and limited-at-best control over the motions of the joints.

[pengbuzz]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

While I was thinking on this one I did a bit of research, and it turned out to be quite a rabbit hole when it comes to technologies for improving medical prosthetics.

Col. Johnson's artificial leg is described as a "robotic prosthetic" limb rather than a cybernetic one.  There's apparently a key distinction there in terms of how the prothesis is being controlled.  Cybernetic prosthetics would be directly integrated into the nervous system and controlled like a biological limb.  Robotic prosthetics, on the other hand, are indirectly monitoring motor nerves via EMG sensors, via magnets implanted in the muscles themselves, or using computer models to guess what the correct posture is instead of working like a biological limb.

So it sounds like Millard's leg is not actually tied into his nervous system... which explains why that was a career-ending injury.  It's enough to let him walk normally, but he likely doesn't have any feeling in that leg and limited-at-best control over the motions of the joints.

Understood; yeah, seeing how Isamu worked the foot pedals on the YF-19, Johnson wouldn't really be able to do that very well. By the time they made any serious advances (like Delta), Johnson would probably be retired anyways (or dead from a Dyson-induced stroke!).

[guyxxed]

That leads my weird brain to another rabbit hole of wondering.  Can Zentradi (or anyone, actually) with cybernetics get micronized or macronized?  The cloning tanks presumably wouldn't copy nonbilogical material into the new scale.  Is that why Exodor was still big in M7?  And does that mean that the captain of the Elysion in Delta (forgotten his name for the moment) got his prosthetics after humanitarian?

Also makes me wonder why you wouldn't just use micro/macronization as a treatment anytime someone loses a limb or has grievous bodily harm.  Their DNA still has all the right parts, just grow them up/down and they're good as new again.

Edited yesterday at 01:58 PM by guyxxed

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, guyxxed said:

That leads my weird brain to another rabbit hole of wondering.  Can Zentradi (or anyone, actually) with cybernetics get micronized or macronized?  The cloning tanks presumably wouldn't copy nonbilogical material into the new scale. 

That is an excellent question we do not currently have an answer for.

We know there are some health conditions, principally genetic ones, which prevent a person from safely using a micloning system and we know that the miclone system can both remove and install biotechnological components of the body like the Meltran bio-fiber optic nervous system or a records officer's expanded memory.  There's no word on whether micloning can work with cybernetics or even more minimal body mods like tattoos and piercings.

Since giant Zentradi are prohibited on Earth and aren't present in most emigrant fleets or planets for resource reasons, this may be something of an academic question even in-universe.

 

7 hours ago, guyxxed said:

Is that why Exodor was still big in M7? 

Supplemental material for Macross 7 indicates that Exsedol did spend time among Humans as a miclone toward the end of the First Space War as we saw in the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series.  It's noted that, by the time of the Macross 7 fleet's departure, he had returned to his giant size and original body plan because he was concerned that his miclone form's smaller size might mean reduced memory and information analysis capability compared to his specialized giant form.

 

7 hours ago, guyxxed said:

And does that mean that the captain of the Elysion in Delta (forgotten his name for the moment) got his prosthetics after humanitarian?

Ernest Johnson is a half-Zentradi "peace child".

Exactly what's going on with that metal on the back of his head is unclear, but it may be related to his unusual body proportions.  Macross Delta Character Design Works has some notes that suggest Ernest's height and unusual proportions are not natural, but are instead the result of some quirk of his half-Zentradi genetics not playing nice with repeated use of micloning systems and leaving him slightly deformed with a Hellboy-like physique.  It's possible that metal bit is reinforcing his skull due to those micloning-related health issues, or perhaps it's simply an affectation because he's bald?

(For instance, TV Vrlitwhai's "eyepatch" wasn't an implant... it was basically just an outlandish eyepatch bolted directly to his skull to cover up an injury.)

 

7 hours ago, guyxxed said:

Also makes me wonder why you wouldn't just use micro/macronization as a treatment anytime someone loses a limb or has grievous bodily harm.  Their DNA still has all the right parts, just grow them up/down and they're good as new again.

That's a good question, which we don't have an answer for.

Perhaps it's too great of a strain on the body and mind for a severely injured person.  Maybe the system really is THAT doggedly precise that it'll recreate injuries and scar tissue not just run off a copy of the body based on its DNA.  Or maybe it's something to do with the genetic issues that prevent some people from using micloning systems safely that have been mentioned several times since Macross Frontier.  Klan Klan, Michael Blanc, and Ernest Johnson are all mentioned to have (or be at risk for) issues caused by miclone systems.

[guyxxed]

I guess micronization is the Macross version of the Star Trek transporter problem.  It was dreamed up to solve a plot/setting problem, but the implications of the technology start to break the setting (somewhat) if you think about them too much. 

And I'm of the breed that does nothing but think about things too much. 😁 

Thanks for the confirmations, as extensive as the expanded universe materials are for Macross, it wouldn't have surprised me if there were explanations, but I guess I'm getting into "just go with it" territory. Or, at least, "Schroedingers Setting" territory, where it will only be defined when it becomes plot relevant.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, guyxxed said:

I guess micronization is the Macross version of the Star Trek transporter problem.  It was dreamed up to solve a plot/setting problem, but the implications of the technology start to break the setting (somewhat) if you think about them too much. 

Seems that way, yeah... they've come up with a couple good excuses for why the tech isn't used more widely, a lot of which are some flavor of acknowledging that repeated use of LEGO Genetics in the real world would be a very unhealthy thing to do even if they weren't for the massive changes in biochemistry necessary to work around the square cube law.

Admittedly, investigating this question led me to that very uncomfortable detail I hadn't been aware of before about Ernest Johnson's unusual proportions being a miclone system-induced deformity.  If a few too many trips through the miclone system without perfectly system-compatible genes can leave you with permanent physical and genetic alterations, that's a good reason to only use it sparingly.

[guyxxed]

I appreciate that they've thought even this much about it, and if they explore the implications even a little bit, like the inclusion of Johnson's troubles, then that also shows that the writers see it as more than just a handwave, which is nice.  That detail puts Klan's repeated use of micloning throughout Frontier into a bit of a different light, especially given her "clumsy genes" issue.  I'm sure the deformity issues weren't thought out too much at that stage, but hindsight now makes it look reckless.  I guess we can chalk it up to youth and love drivng risky behavior, and maybe also gives a backhanded explanation for her size (being almost as big as commander types in adult form).  Maybe that's a side effect of her repeated use and eventually she'll be as tall as Boldoza someday?  😉