The computer and electronics super geek thread

[David Hingtgen]

I've upgraded my current PC about as far as I can.  It's 11 years old, and despite almost nothing being original besides the case, I need "new everything" to really take advantage of any new tech.  I've never had a PC this long before. The case itself is an issue at this point, incompatible with USB 3.1/3.2/C.  PSU (#3!) doesn't have 6x2 12-pin for modern GPU's, and is borderline for 5070/5080 wattage requirements. So that pretty much dictates "new everything", to accomplish a GPU/CPU upgrade at this point   

I came very close to buying a 5060 ti on Black Friday, but was still REALLY waiting for the 5070 Super/Super ti to come out.   Well, that's not gonna happen now, and everything is skyrocketing.  It's either get something now, or be stuck with an old PC for a very long time or pay a LOT of money for something new a bit later.  

At the moment, I've swung back towards CostCo again.  I could buy it, see if it works/see if it's one of the ones with the better mobo, and return it in-store if not.  I dread the thought of ordering a pre-built, waiting for it, then something doesn't work.  Much harder to troubleshoot "mystery components" and even harder to ship back.  

[azrael]

If you are planning on waiting the RAMpocolypse out, buying in-store and upgrading as things improve might be the way to go. If you want everything there and not have to worry about upgrades for a while, buying direct from the SI would probably be the better route. 

 

[mikeszekely]

So, it's not for power users and certainly not the answer to @David Hingtgen's quest... but Apple just dropped a bomb with the MacBook Neo.  Now, I'm saying this as someone who thinks Windows 11 is that bad once you de-clutter it... but the fact that you have to de-clutter it at all is telling.  The AI push is adding bloat that no one wants and no one asked for, and yet every time they get called out on it they've doubled down.  I think the only thing that's kept me suggesting Windows laptops to my family is that they don't do a ton with their computers, so they just want something cheap.  They're just not willing to spend $900+ on a base model MacBook Air.  I think the $600 MacBook Neo completely changes that conversation.  Yeah, as a primarily PC gamer I'm still going to be running a Windows desktop, and if I'm going on a trip my Zephyrus G14 is going with me.  But the next time my wife or dad want a new laptop, I'll point them at the Neo.  When my daughter gets far enough along to graduate from an iPad to a laptop for school, Neo.  Heck, I have an perfectly good M1 MacBook Air I use for couch surfing (so I know MacOS runs OK even with just 8GB of RAM), and even I'm thinking about replacing it with a Neo because I really dig that green one.

[David Hingtgen]

So how much RAM in that latest announcement?

[mikeszekely]

1 hour ago, David Hingtgen said:

So how much RAM in that latest announcement?

You mean the MacBook Neo? Just 8GB. Not ideal, but like I said, I have an M1 Air with 8GB, and MacOS is optimized enough that it still feels adequate for basic tasks. Better than a Windows device with that little RAM, anyway.

EDIT: To be clear, no, I don't think the MacBook Neo is going to be enough for professionals... but I don't think the vast majority of laptops under $600 cut it for professionals.  And gamers are almost stuck with Windows (and, again, probably need to spend more than $600).  The MacBook Neo is definitely not suitable for everyone.  But, I feel pretty confident saying it's the best laptop under $600, and a solid choice for people who do most of their work in a web broswer.  

Edited March 4 by mikeszekely

[davidwhangchoi]

Mike you really thinking of getting this Apple Chromebook? 

It's stylish and has the Apple name to appeal to students but i need a GPU and OS that's compatible with PC games.  

Apple is becoming the good discount value in tech right before this RAM shortages kills the PC industry. This and apple giving us the iphone 17 with 256gb and 120 pro motion for the same price as the 16 is amazing value which is why they're killing it in sales this year with the 17. This is prob going to do the same for entry level notebooks:

 

[David Hingtgen]

Well, with news getting worse by the day (Dell gonna have a bad next quarter it seems, either unable to deliver or need to charge customers WAY more to fulfill existing contracts), I figured "they can all raise prices on existing stock AGAIN" with no warning, so I picked up that one at CostCo I linked to earlier.  Pulled all but one off the shelf to look at serial numbers, picked the highest number (should be the newest one), and lucked out and got the one with the better mobo (4 RAM slots, better heat sinks for the VRM etc).  So if I can ever acquire more RAM, it's ready.  

Not setting it up tonight, too many other things to do.  

**with component prices soaring, every retailer is seeing huge numbers of "returns" with pieces plucked out, that eventually get shipped back out to unsuspecting customers.  Far more horror stories than usual, I wouldn't trust buying a whole tower online from ANY of the major retailers right now.  Gotta go grab one in-person to visually inspect that it's factory-fresh and sealed.   

***also, just since yesterday, CostCo sold out of my #3 choice. So "good options" are dwindling rapidly.   (they had 2 of my top 3, and I didn't feel like risking Amazon 3rd-party seller for my #1 choice)

[mikeszekely]

3 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

Mike you really thinking of getting this Apple Chromebook? 

Debating it.  I really like the color, and although it's not a real Apples-to-Apples (pun totally intended) until they benchmark the Neo, synthetic CPU benchmarks of the A18 in an iPhone suggest that it is an improvement over the M1.  I could spend extra and get an Air M4, if the prices go down when the M5 hits, but since the M5 has a price increase over the M4 I think there's less pressure to do so.  Right now an M4 looks to be around $900 still, which is half again the price of the Neo.

3 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

It's stylish and has the Apple name to appeal to students but i need a GPU and OS that's compatible with PC games.

I mean, so do I, which is why I have a 2025 Zephyrus G14.  I take that with me when I travel, and I'll bust it out if I want to do some real work but don't feel like going upstairs and getting on my desktop (which is where I do 99% of my gaming).  I mostly use my M1 Air when I'm couch surfing but need a real keyboard, because it's lighter and has better battery life than Zephyrus.  I also have a stand by my desk so that if I need to look at the internet or something while I'm playing a game on my desktop I don't have to alt-tab out of it.

3 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

Apple is becoming the good discount value in tech right before this RAM shortages kills the PC industry. This and apple giving us the iphone 17 with 256gb and 120 pro motion for the same price as the 16 is amazing value which is why they're killing it in sales this year with the 17. This is prob going to do the same for entry level notebooks:

Yeah, that's my real point.  A MacBook Neo isn't a high-end computer for gaming or professionals, but if you're in either of those categories you're already budgeting for more.  But I think the majority of people are doing most of their computing in a web browser, be it streaming video, surfing the web, checking email, doing schoolwork, etc.  Those sorts of people don't want to spend a ton on more power that they don't need, and I really don't think there's a better sub-$600 option right now.  When I bought my new G14 my dad was freaking out because his laptop had Windows 10, Microsoft was ending support for it, and it was so old he couldn't upgrade to 11.  I wound up just giving him my old G14, but if he asked me today what he should get I'd tell him MacBook Neo.

I'm less enthusiastic about the iPhone 17e.  I mean, it is probably a good deal, and I expect I'll be buying one in the near future for my daughter, but I personally don't like iOS.

[David Hingtgen]

I am due for a new phone...

Any upcoming iPhones have a better camera (read: zoom/night performance) on the lower-end versions?   "ultra-super-duper-wide panoramic selfie" is of zero use, but if there's a second lens, that's what it's for.  "optical zoom" is only ever present as a third lens on the highest-end version.  But really, it should be the first, default lens.  (because the actual default lens for about every iPhone ever is zoomed out to 0.75 or so--it's not even "reality", just giving me 1:1 zoom compared to what I see in real life would be an improvement)

[treatment]

4 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Well, with news getting worse by the day (Dell gonna have a bad next quarter it seems, either unable to deliver or need to charge customers WAY more to fulfill existing contracts), I figured "they can all raise prices on existing stock AGAIN" with no warning, so I picked up that one at CostCo I linked to earlier.  Pulled all but one off the shelf to look at serial numbers, picked the highest number (should be the newest one), and lucked out and got the one with the better mobo (4 RAM slots, better heat sinks for the VRM etc).  So if I can ever acquire more RAM, it's ready.  

Not setting it up tonight, too many other things to do.  

**with component prices soaring, every retailer is seeing huge numbers of "returns" with pieces plucked out, that eventually get shipped back out to unsuspecting customers.  Far more horror stories than usual, I wouldn't trust buying a whole tower online from ANY of the major retailers right now.  Gotta go grab one in-person to visually inspect that it's factory-fresh and sealed.   

***also, just since yesterday, CostCo sold out of my #3 choice. So "good options" are dwindling rapidly.   (they had 2 of my top 3, and I didn't feel like risking Amazon 3rd-party seller for my #1 choice)

Most likely missed it, but is it easier or more convenient or less pricey for you to get that CostCo prebuilt you linked earlier than building one yourself?

 

[azrael]

12 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

but Apple just dropped a bomb with the MacBook Neo.

I think Chromebooks and the cheap Windows laptops just got serious competition with this release. Schools looking at un-tethering their students from Google could probably do it with the Neo. College students who only need the bare essential laptop could also use this one (let's face it, kids these days will use the phone more than anything).

6 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

It's stylish and has the Apple name to appeal to students but i need a GPU and OS that's compatible with PC games.  

You are not gaming on the Mac. Period. But parents wanting to limit their kids to school work, videos, web. This is that laptop. And you are not the target demographic for this device. 

5 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

(Dell gonna have a bad next quarter it seems, either unable to deliver or need to charge customers WAY more to fulfill existing contracts)

Dell consumer or enterprise (i.e. servers)? And Dell and Lenovo sent out notices that prices would be increasing in March.

2 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I could spend extra and get an Air M4, if the prices go down when the M5 hits, but since the M5 has a price increase over the M4 I think there's less pressure to do so.  Right now an M4 looks to be around $900 still, which is half again the price of the Neo.

2 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

  I take that with me when I travel, and I'll bust it out if I want to do some real work but don't feel like going upstairs and getting on my desktop (which is where I do 99% of my gaming). 

I see the Air (M4 or M5) as the "traveling-work-laptop" now. It's lightweight and can do professional workloads for brief periods. The Neo feels like the M1 Air replacement. The "Couch computer" would be a good take on the MB Neo. After using my M3 Air (and an Intel-based Air before that), the Air feels like the best everyday-worker's laptop. 

2 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

But I think the majority of people are doing most of their computing in a web browser, be it streaming video, surfing the web, checking email, doing schoolwork, etc.  Those sorts of people don't want to spend a ton on more power that they don't need, and I really don't think there's a better sub-$600 option right now. 

I've had family say they would upgrade to the Neo because the use-case matches exactly what they want. 

1 hour ago, David Hingtgen said:

Any upcoming iPhones have a better camera (read: zoom/night performance) on the lower-end versions?   "ultra-super-duper-wide panoramic selfie" is of zero use, but if there's a second lens, that's what it's for.

If you are planning on going iPhone, the iPhone 17 (no Pro, no Air) is the best bang-for-buck. Unless you need more lens for those perfect shots, the Pro is overkill. The Air's only selling point is the thin-ness. The new 17e is an upgrade to the children's or older parents' phone. It works and it's cheap, but there's better options.

[davidwhangchoi]

 

[mikeszekely]

Looks like Geekbench results were leaked for the MacBook Neo. Multicore performance looks like a small bump over the M1 Air, but lags behind the M2 (but it's roughly 3x the score of the Intel N100 you see in a lot of those extra cheap Windows laptops you find at Walmart that are supposed to compete with Chromebooks).  Single core performance isn't too shabby, though, sitting about halfway between an M3 iMac and an M4 Air.  Obviously an M4 or M5 Air will be a better choice for people who need the extra power, but for people who do most of their stuff in a browser the MacBook Neo is looking like a pretty good deal.

If I have some free time later I might see if I can find a $600 Windows laptop and see what kind of benchmarks its putting up.  I know, I know, synthetic benchmarks aren't as good as real world tests.

[davidwhangchoi]

 

[davidwhangchoi]

@mikeszekely this review might be of interest.
 

 

[mikeszekely]

3 hours ago, davidwhangchoi said:

@mikeszekely this review might be of interest.

Eh... I don't think he's wrong, but I think the way he's framing it is a bit different.  I think he and I agree that the MacBook Neo is not automatically the best choice for everyone.  Gamers are going to need something with a real GPU.  Professionals will need something with more RAM and/or a faster CPU, maybe more storage.  I think where he and I are disagreeing is that he's suggesting that you should spend more, arguing that you can get a faster CPU and more RAM with a refurbished MacBook Air.  And, yeah, I see you can get an Apple certified refurb for around $760, that'll net you an M4 and 16GB of RAM.  But that $160 jump from $600 to $760 is about a 27% increase in price (or more, if you get the education discount on a new one like he suggests), and you're not even getting a brand new computer in that scenario.  And it's a slippery slope, too... I mean, why not another $140 and get a brand new M4 MacBook Air?  Heck, then I might as well drop another $200 and get the latest and greatest with an M5 MacBook Air.

The thing is, do you really need that much?  I mean, if you know you need more power than the Neo chances are you (or your organization) were already budgeting for a more expensive laptop.  But for the majority of people who are just going to surf the net, watch Netflix, maybe work on a school paper or FaceTime with Grandma?  The Air is overkill.  The only counterargument that guy offered to that was, "well, it's only got 8GB of RAM and it'll feel slow in five years."  Maybe?  Maybe you buy a new $600 Neo then with better specs and still come out ahead of a six year old M4 Air (since the current Neo does beat the 6yo M1 air)?  Or maybe it still won't matter that much... I'm thing this on an M1 Air, and even with 8GB of RAM it's still way snappier than the Ryzen 3400G PC with Windows 11 even after I upgraded that one to 16GB of RAM.

Ultimately, I think comparing the MacBook Neo to the MacBook Air isn't right for most people.  I think the right move is comparing the MacBook Neo to other laptops in the same $500-$600 price range, where Apple's build quality, better hardware/software optimization, and less Windows 11-style enshittification are making it look like a clear winner.

Bottom line, for me I use my MacBook exclusively as a secondary device, almost entirely in a browser, when I value something thinner and lighter but still possessing a physical keyboard.  If I need more power I'll use my desktop or my G14.  And for me, the Neo is actually an upgrade with a better screen and a faster CPU than my current M1 Air... the RAM, hard drive, ports, and lack of MagSafe all seem to be the same, I'm really only losing the backlight on the keyboard.  Too bad the only local store that sells Apple computers seems pre-sold out.

[azrael]

1 hour ago, mikeszekely said:

Ultimately, I think comparing the MacBook Neo to the MacBook Air isn't right for most people.  I think the right move is comparing the MacBook Neo to other laptops in the same $500-$600 price range, where Apple's build quality, better hardware/software optimization, and less Windows 11-style enshittification are making it look like a clear winner.

I agree. 

1 hour ago, mikeszekely said:

f I need more power I'll use my desktop or my G14.  And for me, the Neo is actually an upgrade with a better screen and a faster CPU than my current M1 Air... the RAM, hard drive, ports, and lack of MagSafe all seem to be the same,...

Yeah. I really see the Neo as a replacement for the M1 Air. The performance is in that space.

Again, I see the Neo as a device for schools wanting to move away from Chromebooks and cheap Windows laptops and punching above its price point. Kids' computer (high schoolers, teenagers), non-engineering/non-science college majors, older parents/grandparents or anyone who just needs a laptop that does web, email, video, documents, homework, taxes, everyday computing...this laptop fulfills that need at a $500-price point. It's perfect for that class.

If you need more performance but still want portability, the Air is where I would start. For most people, corporate/enterprise customers, I would point them at the Air. I've used an Air for a while now and the Air is my go-to for that space if you want a Mac laptop. I would not recommend anything lower than an Air for enterprise if they want a Mac. You get more mileage at this price point for those customers. What about a refurbished M4 Air? Still at this level but you don't want to pay for new. A Neo would be a step down at this level and the M4 Air is *used*. 

If they need more than an Air, then were entering the realm of the gaming laptops, higher-end laptops, MB Pros, desktops, higher-end computing.  

[davidwhangchoi]

2 hours ago, azrael said:

I agree. 

MKBHD seems to agree with you.

[davidwhangchoi]

4 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Bottom line, for me I use my MacBook exclusively as a secondary device, almost entirely in a browser, when I value something thinner and lighter but still possessing a physical keyboard.

I'll probably get this on sale or the next gen that prob will have 12gb of ram for the same cost using the a19 chip in the future.

[mikeszekely]

31 minutes ago, davidwhangchoi said:

MKBHD seems to agree with you.

Yeah.  The gist from written articles on Engadget and Tom's Hardware are saying pretty much the same thing as well- you can get an Air if you need more power, but for most people who are doing almost everything in a browser it's powerful enough and built better than almost anything else at that price.

I found this part of Engadget's review especially amusing...

Quote

The only time the MacBook Neo completely failed was when I tried to run complex games meant for Apple's M-series chips. Lies of P installed just fine, but upon launch it just stopped as it tried to load shaders.

Like, imagine that, the one thing Macs aren't known to be good at doesn't work too good on the cheapest laptop Apple's ever made.

EDIT: I ordered a Citrus one at Best Buy, but it won't be available until the end of the month.  I'll sell my M1 Air to a buddy who's current Mac is the second-to-last Intel Mac Mini, recoup some of that cost back.

Edited 2 hours ago by mikeszekely

[David Hingtgen]

Finally actually tried out new PC tonight.  Seems ok so far, but gonna take forever to figure out fan curves.  Out of the box it runs the radiator too much and is too sensitive (1 degree up from idle ramps them up a ton)  and basically just idles the rear exhaust...

Also, forgot how INSANE Edge is to start with, with constantly advertising "features".  

Have identified all main components except the PSU----seems to be pretty generic and likely the cheapest component.  Non-modular, so it's a huge mess when you start digging and I don't feel like undoing the surprisingly good job of cable management the factory did, until I have to.   

Biggest surprise---everyone said they used WD green SSD's in these, but mine is a "T-Force G50".  A quick google shows that to be surprisingly decent?