Messing Up Hard Work

[Noyhauser]

I've been working slowly on a Hase VF-1 Strike in Fighter mode. Its been going well, four months of slow progress usually after I get home from work. One thing I've been trying to do is paint without an airbrush... the old fashion way with brushes. While its been steep learning curve, I think I can see improvement. Consequently parts of the aircraft are of different quality, the arms the most shoddy, to the back fastpacks which I thought I did extremely well on (considering its my first hand paint in over a decade).

So yesterday I decided it was time to put a semi gloss coat on the legs/engines. I used to do this by an airbrush to seal in decals and make the clear part of them less visible. It was an unmitigated disaster. One of the most difficult lessons I learned was that with hand painting you get one shot to get the paint on right, thats it. if its not on correctly the first time, you might as well strip the whole thing and do it again. Brushing paint onto a subject physically mixes it, and second coats streak appear that ruins finishes.

So now I've got two semi gloss legs that look terrible. I had so few streaks up until today, and now the finish on the legs look like the rapids of a raging river.

So I've got one or two questions. I'm considering scrapping using dullcoats altogether. How long can decals last for without a dullcoat? Will yellowing and peeling set in, even if I use microsol? Is that the same for custom decals as well (made by a certain MW?)

I'm generally happy with my unprepared finish, so I might just lightly sand/strip the most egregious parts of the dullcoat to get it to a passable state.

[Noyhauser]

Oh, and one other thing, Is the VF-1 Strike (maybe VF-0) the most complicated 1/72 model out there? In all my time of doing 1/72 stuff I can't recall putting this much effort into a model. Even modern Jets aren't as complicated.

The closest I can recall in difficulty was a B-17G I did, but even then I didn't feel that it was as difficult as this.

[HWR MKII]

I think the VF-0 battroid is the most complicated of the hasegawa macross kits. The mst complex injection molded kit so far has to be either the Fine Molds Milennium Falcon for the sheer number of parts ot the new tank models being made by DML for parts count and options available in a kit.

These kits make any tamiya offering look like a toy.

[Noyhauser]

I think the VF-0 battroid is the most complicated of the hasegawa macross kits. The mst complex injection molded kit so far has to be either the Fine Molds Milennium Falcon for the sheer number of parts ot the new tank models being made by DML for parts count and options available in a kit.

  These kits make any tamiya offering look like a toy.

393905[/snapback]

Haha, the Millenium falcon IS 1/72, that I totally forgot.

DML is making good stuff now eh? I did 1/35 stuff till about 4 years ago, and back then Tamiya was vehicles, and DML was figures (unless you wanted rare stuff like E-100s and the like). I'm guessing they've solved their Quality issues.

[HWR MKII]

To put it simply DML is making Tamiya seem like MONOGRAM! The new Tiger, Panzer IV and half track kits are to DIE for. they all come with turned aluminum parts and PE brass. EVEN some preformed brass parts like buckets and skirts for the tiger and armor for the PZ 4. They are also very good at listening to customer feedback they have retooled whole kits in the past simply because it seemed dated in its construction. they are also going back and retooling alot of their kits from 92 and 93 t keep up. Tamiya will be hard pressed t keep the market top now, especially if DML keeps putting out kits with all these extras. When i got the tiger i felt like i bought a 40 dollar detail set and got a plastic model for free with it there was so much stuff. With Tamiya you just get a basic kit for 40 bucks then you have to spend another 40-60 to get the PE and accurate parts for it.

Trumpeter is ding the same thing to Hasegawa in the 1/32 scale range. I still think Hase ranks best in the 1/72 scale arena though

[jardann]

Hey Noyhouser, sorry to hear of your painting woes. I am currently in the opposite situation. I used to always brush paint, and now I have an airbrush that I am trying to learn with.

As for your clearcoat problem, here's a suggestion. First make sure that your base coats have a good long time to cure like a week at least. Then, use a clear coat that is of a different type. Best example would be if your base coat is acrylic, then use an enamel clear coat, or vice versa. I think you need to be doubly sure that the base is cured though before putting acrylic over enamel since the enamel paint will continue to outgas and an acrylic top coat will seal all of that in and cause cracks or bubbles. I don't think your decals will look very good for very long without a clear coat.

[Noyhauser]

Hey Noyhouser, sorry to hear of your painting woes. I am currently in the opposite situation. I used to always brush paint, and now I have an airbrush that I am trying to learn with.

As for your clearcoat problem, here's a suggestion. First make sure that your base coats have a good long time to cure like a week at least. Then, use a clear coat that is of a different type. Best example would be if your base coat is acrylic, then use an enamel clear coat, or vice versa. I think you need to be doubly sure that the base is cured though before putting acrylic over enamel since the enamel paint will continue to outgas and an acrylic top coat will seal all of that in and cause cracks or bubbles. I don't think your decals will look very good for very long without a clear coat.

393972[/snapback]

Interesting... I never considered using an enamel. I used acrylics primarily for ease of cleanup and work (which is why I moved away from airbrushing, because of setup and cleanup times that I don't have). The pieces I painted today were long dry, at least 2 months already.

I'll take your suggestion though, thanks.

[Penguin]

Hey Noyhauser.

I pretty much hand brush with acrylics exclusively (don't even own an airbrush), so I've encountered your woes. Here's what I've discovered regarding handbrushing and top coats.

As you noticed, adding a top coat (of any lustre - dull coats seem the worst) seems to bring out brush strokes rather starkly in a lot of cases. I've found it has a lot to do with the type of paint and the type of stroke.

Pollyscale acrylics go on so smooth that I can barely make out my original brushstrokes, and top coats go on smoothly without any marking.

When using Tamiya or Gunze acrylics, I always use a wide, camel hair brush to apply the paint smooth and even, using strokes in the same direction and trying not to overlap very often. This seems to work well and I don't get the streaks showing up after the top coat. Any time I have to resort to a smaller brush, the streaks get more prevalent.

I've also found that a lightly-sprayed primer or base coat works wonders, since the colour layer after it goes on smoothly in one coat. I did my DD Ivanov SV-51 this way, using a flat black Tamiya lacquer spray as the base, Gunze acrylic RLM66 grey next, and a Gunze spray flat coat on top. The result is so smooth, I can't even see my original brush strokes.

Hope this helps.

[Gundamhead]

If you don't want to airbrush, why not use a rattle can of clear for your final coat? And decals don't instantly fade, crack, or peel without a top coat. I've got kits I built in the 80's that have no clearcoats over the decals, and you'd never know it. The clear is to 'blend' the decals with the paints sheen. Sometimes you get lucky and the decal sheen is close to the paints'.

[buglips]

I'm a brush painter too. For anything except feathered camo, it's handpaint all the way.

I know it's silly, but airbrushing just feels like cheating to me.

Anyway, I too have seen the aforementioned horror stories.

So now I've developed a simple plan solution.

First, as always, wash all the parts.

Second, use a fresh brush whenever possible. I still only use old-school testors white handle mediums, and average four per kit. I try to keep each brush within a similar color range (i.e. not using it for white and then red later).

Third, I tossed enamels unless I really, really, really need a color or I'm doing metal colors. I almost exclusively use Tamiya flats, and unless I need a very bright color I will undercoat with thinned dark yellow. This is very effective if the top coat will be red.

Thin the paint just a little bit. Nowhere near as thin as airbrush quality, just a tiny bit to improve flow and minimize chunking on the brush. Then do a light coat in even directional strokes, working from inside out (like on a wing). Picking the direction is important, so try to use the outside edge of the piece as a linear guide.

It will probably take 3-4 coats this method, but the finish will be mar-free and at least the equal of an airbrush job.

When all this is done, place your decals as normal but do it by section. Start with, say, a wing and apply all the decals. When they are about 20 minutes dry I brush on some Future to pull them into the crevices. I follow this up about a half hour later with a second coat of future. But only on the decals and the edges of the decals.

Once all this is done, make sure any clear parts like the canopy are masked, and then give it a light dusting of cheap old flat finish spray from someplace like wal-mart. If the first coat is insufficient, do another light dusting.

That's how I solve those problems, and I'm happy with the results I've gotten.

[Gundamhead]

If you put decals over a flat paint, you have a risk of 'silvering'. The decals are supposed to go on a smooth coat of paint (flats are rough) so no silvering can occur.

Unless you're putting a drop of Future under the decal, I don't see the point, or how it will help.

[Penguin]

If you put decals over a flat paint, you have a risk of 'silvering'. The decals are supposed to go on a smooth coat of paint (flats are rough) so no silvering can occur.

Unless you're putting a drop of Future under the decal, I don't see the point, or how it will help.

394228[/snapback]

Quite true. I forgot to mention in my steps that I did use a gloss coat first, then added decals, then added the flat coat.

[buglips]

Whoops, you're right. I forgot to add that. (I was trying to figure out my steps and explain them, it's easier when I just do 'em)

Yes, future the decal spot before you apply the decal (or otherwise make it glossy) and then I future seal over it.

[honneamise]

A sprayed-on clear coat over a brushed-on colour finish is the way to go, as has been said - but you should quickly forget the suggestion of using different colour types together! From my experiences you CAN spray/paint acrylics on enamels but NEVER try it vice versa.

It looks great at first but after some time it CAN happen that the enamel upper coat is slowly dissolving the acrylic coat underneath, no matter how much time it had to dry.

I have ruined several kits with this method. They looked great for about 2-3 years, then I wondered why I wasn´t able to remove the dust they had gathered any more. They became progressively stickier with every month and in the end I had to discard them completely.

At the time I used Gunze aqueous color with a Humbrol clear cote. I´m not sure how other combinations will react, but given the long time until the effect ocurred; I´d say you better entirely stay away from mixing different paint systems.

Over the last few years I´ve been using Citadel satin varnish as clear coat and it works well - despite the term "satin" it is actually smooth/glossy enough to prevent silvering.

[promethuem5]

I brush paint exclusively as well, and with thinned down and light applied coats, I rarely get any streaks.... I'm not sure what you mean about a second coat making all the streaks show tho?

[Noyhauser]

Thanks for all the comments guys. I didn't expect so many people to retain the old art of handpainting, so its a welcome suprise. Over the week I was able to "repair" some of the damage by using 2000grit sandpaper and Tamiya polishing compound. It got rid of most of the egregious markings.

Second, use a fresh brush whenever possible.  I still only use old-school testors white handle mediums, and average four per kit.  I try to keep each brush within a similar color range (i.e. not using it for white and then red later).

Third, I tossed enamels unless I really, really, really need a color or I'm doing metal colors.  I almost exclusively use Tamiya flats, and unless I need a very bright color I will undercoat with thinned dark yellow.  This is very effective if the top coat will be red.

Thin the paint just a little bit.  Nowhere near as thin as airbrush quality, just a tiny bit to improve flow and minimize chunking on the brush.  Then do a light coat in even directional strokes, working from inside out (like on a wing).  Picking the direction is important, so try to use the outside edge of the piece as a linear guide.

It will probably take 3-4 coats this method, but the finish will be mar-free and at least the equal of an airbrush job.

When all this is done, place your decals as normal but do it by section.  Start with, say, a wing and apply all the decals.  When they are about 20 minutes dry I brush on some Future to pull them into the crevices.  I follow this up about a half hour later with a second coat of future.  But only on the decals and the edges of the decals.

Once all this is done, make sure any clear parts like the canopy are masked, and then give it a light dusting of cheap old flat finish spray from someplace like wal-mart.  If the first coat is insufficient, do another light dusting. 

That's how I solve those problems, and I'm happy with the results I've gotten.

394022[/snapback]

Painting isn't the problem for me. And to be honest, I'd prefer if I could just leave it in the "natural" finish that I get without any topcoats, but for obvious reasons thats not feasable. I've used Tamiya exclusively for about 15 years, if not more. I've found I can get it done with one coat, with minimal amounts of streaking, and no loss of features. Whats killing me is the topcoats. I might go with the spray can, but I'd like to get away from that as well. I guess your solution is to future it, then flatcoat it.

If you put decals over a flat paint, you have a risk of 'silvering'. The decals are supposed to go on a smooth coat of paint (flats are rough) so no silvering can occur.

Unless you're putting a drop of Future under the decal, I don't see the point, or how it will help.

394228[/snapback]

I've never had a problem with silvering. I tend to move around the decal, forcing out airbubbles while liberally apply microsol, which does the trick.

I brush paint exclusively as well, and with thinned down and light applied coats, I rarely get any streaks....  I'm not sure what you mean about a second coat making all the streaks show tho?

394455[/snapback]

I find that if I paint more than one coat, streaks start to appear as do brush strokes. Very thinned paints I find are even worse, as the thinner (Tamiya thinner) acts as a stripper while laying down paint at the same time, leaving really nasty streaks. as I noted above, painting isn't my problem, its the Topcoats which mar the final product.

As you noticed, adding a top coat (of any lustre - dull coats seem the worst) seems to bring out brush strokes rather starkly in a lot of cases. I've found it has a lot to do with the type of paint and the type of stroke.

Pollyscale acrylics go on so smooth that I can barely make out my original brushstrokes, and top coats go on smoothly without any marking.

When using Tamiya or Gunze acrylics, I always use a wide, camel hair brush to apply the paint smooth and even, using strokes in the same direction and trying not to overlap very often. This seems to work well and I don't get the streaks showing up after the top coat. Any time I have to resort to a smaller brush, the streaks get more prevalent.

394001[/snapback]

Thanks Penguin, I think I'm going to go with that. I initially used small brushes, but have noticed that wider ones made surfaces go on easier. I'll try those two suggestions (the camel hair brush, and the Pollyscale topcoat products) as my first solution.

[Penguin]

Thanks Penguin, I think I'm going to go with that. I initially used small brushes, but have noticed that wider ones made surfaces go on easier. I'll try those two suggestions (the camel hair brush, and the Pollyscale topcoat products) as my first solution.

394623[/snapback]

Just to clarify... I use Pollyscale for the base colour coat, not the top coat (although I realize that my text made it sound like I did). I use Gunze spray for the top coat. What I meant was that, using Pollyscale as the colour coat, the Gunze has never brought out any streaking or flaws in the base paint job. I've used Pollyscale top coats for a couple of small items, but I mostly use the Gunze spray.

[Spatula]

Okay, I want to cry. I've built 3 Macross 1/72 kits so far and now I'm working on a super ostrich. So much time and effort was put into the air brusing part. That was perfect. Now comes the part of detailing using enamels over acrylics. This time I remembered to put on Future floorwax, just like my previous three kits. But now I'm fed up, my paints are FREAKING MIXING while I'm doing the panel lines and now my base coat is so Fuked up I'm prety pissed. What did I do wrong this time? The last three times it worked like a charm, and I used Future for those as well, with the exact same paints (Tamiya Acrylics and Testors Enamels). I've not have had trouble with Testors before, but I don't understand what's going on now.

Seriously help me please. I think I just threw away a good week of vacation and $50 of supplies.

[specr0101]

Honestly, I feel that Future floor wax is not as strong as others like Testor Acryl Clear gloss. I tested both using scrap plastic styrene and painted the blue then coated them with each of the above mentioned products. I then proceeded to paint on some thinned down black Tamiya acrylic. Once dried, I rubbed both coated surfaces to remove the black paint using windex. The Acryl-coated plastic resisted a slightly damp Windex tissue much better than the Future-coated. Future is cheap, applies very nicely, but for durablity it's not as great as the Acryl. That's with my experience...others have had better luck with Future. Hope that helps.

[Chas]

Windex is made with amonia. Future is pure acrylic. Amonia desolves acrylic. The Testors must be an acrylic blend. Read the label and see if it labels the contents.

[David Hingtgen]

Testors Acryl is rather unique. It's Propylene gycol based. Testors Acryl has sh*t adhesion to anything other than Testors Enamel IMHO, but not much affects it once dry.