Revenge of the Sith

[Hurin]

Source:

"Sam Davatchi's website reports that George Lucas told a reporter for Studio Magazine that Anakin is indeed the one who brings balance to the force. In this interview, Lucas said that Anakin vanquished the Emperor and brought balance to the Force, although he did need help from Luke to do so. In addition, Lucas said that Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was close enough to the emperor to destroy him.  As pointed out by Cinescape Online, this fits into the following statement made by Lucas in the Making of Episode I book: "The mystery around [the chosen one] theory is that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out." (6/18/99)." - 1. In general, what will the New Trilogy be about?

And there he is again, that darn Lucas, ruining the pet theories of fanboys everywhere.

Note that here, we have Lucas saying clearly that only one side is the cause of the imbalance (and needs to be destroyed, presumably). But, he also says that the side that needs to be destroyed is the Sith. Now, I don't mean to be harsh, but between this and the three or four other similar quotes directly from Lucas essentially saying the same thing, shouldn't the debate be over?

[Seven]

Except Luke is NOT in between both sides. He is a JEDI and he clearly rejects the Sith and Palpatine's overtures. Like his father, he balances precariously between the Light and the Dark but he DOES choose the light. Good and evil are not equivalent opposites in Star Wars. The dark side is a parasite, at best, that merely degrades the whole or a cancer that destroys the whole. Besides which, by this inane definition, the Force would be in imbalance at the end of RotJ (One Jedi / Light ( Luke) and zero Sith).

The Jedi are Force conservationists. They treat the Force with reverence and manipulate it subtly and even then only when they must because they strive to keep the Force in balance. Witness Anakin's remark to Padme that they're not supposed to use it in a casual manner (to bring fruit from the plate). They surrender themselves to the universe both figuratively and literally and give up their lives in service.

The Sith are Force polluters. They don't care how their manipulation of the Force (fate, if you will) affects those around them. They ARE the universe, from their perspective and the rest exists only to serves them. The Sith are CANCER, consuming their host and destroying themselves in the process. It's just a matter of time.

Hahaha, thanks guys. I think I get the picture, though it seems the debate still rages about the balance and there is no consensus. The last few posts following my question were all of a different opinion.

What Uxi said does make sense though about the Jedi acting as conservationists while the Sith act as polluters in respect to the Force.

[Sumdumgai]

No guys you got it all wrong!

Anakin was a systemic anomaly inherent in the programming of the force (meaning those midichlorian thingies).

Seriously what I would like to know is who came up with this prophecy in the first place. Was it some Jedi Master? Was it a Sith Lord? Was it a wookie who ate bad mushrooms?...

[lord_breetai]

I still like my hypothosis... wich dosn't argue with what Lucas said at all ^^.

[mikeszekely]

No guys you got it all wrong!

Anakin was a systemic anomaly inherent in the programming of the force (meaning those midichlorian thingies).

Seriously what I would like to know is who came up with this prophecy in the first place. Was it some Jedi Master? Was it a Sith Lord? Was it a wookie who ate bad mushrooms?...

He raises a good point.

Lucas' quotes about Anakin being the chosen one aside (he could always contradict himself later, since he has a habit of "editing" his works over and over), who says the Force needed to be balanced? Perhaps the very notion of balance is alien to the Force. Both the Jedi and the Sith talk about the Light Side and the Dark Side, and have their one perceptions about what those sides mean... but these could very well be mortal limited understandings of an immortal and unlimited... um... Force.

Perhaps then, it was a Jedi prophecy, and the Jedi who prophesized it though "bring balance to the Force" sounds more mysterious than "gets rid of all the Sith."

He came up with an interesting theory. The Sith lost control of the galaxy to the Jedi about 800 years prior to TPM (according to Lucas). Yoda was actually there to witness it, apparently.

Anyways, the Sith Lord has been in hiding up until that time. But, wait. . . if a Sith uses the Force to augment themselves, and to rule, and their entire goal is to take control and govern with an iron fist with the Force as their instrument of authority. . . then is it really plausible that Sith Lords would be content to merely raise their apprentices, and bide their time waiting to be killed by their apprentices. . . thus keeping the Sith line of succession going until hundreds of years later when their time is right?

I don't think so. A Sith is ultimately selfish and unwilling to just hide out, waiting to die so that their ancestors can then benefit.

So. . . since the novel (as my friend confirmed) says flat-out that Plagueis was his master, and that he learned the secret of (at least) unnaturally prolonging life from him. . . is it not then possible that Palpatine has been the Sith Lord for hundreds of years. . . since the fall of the Sith?

A very interesting and very plausible theory.

It's probably just some fanboy talking out of his arse but:

Lucas talks about prequels to the prequels

I'm sure it's just some wishful thinking from a fanboy, but who knows?

While the EU stuff was never made canon, it has sort of struck me that Lucasfilm endorses the books, at least, and it seems that Lucas has been conent to let the EU authors run with the story.

Also, like Knights of the Old Republic has shown, there's a lot of untapped potential in the thousands of years before the prequels. I personally think a story about a young Yoda and his Jedi companions battling to wrest control of the galaxy form the Dark Lords of the Sith would, in all likeliness, be more entertaining that a story about the tedium rebuilding the Republic and creating a new Jedi Order (with all respect to Zahn's novels, which are in fact quite good).

[do not disturb]

No matter how much you don't want the Prequels to be real, they are.

i think you need some help man.

[Duke Togo]

And there he is again, that darn Lucas, ruining the pet theories of fanboys everywhere.

And we've had 2 movies come out since then. Just because you don't want to acknowledge these movies, doesn't mean they aren't real.

[Hurin]

And there he is again, that darn Lucas, ruining the pet theories of fanboys everywhere.  

And we've had 2 movies come out since then. Just because you don't want to acknowledge these movies, doesn't mean they aren't real.

Keep arguing against something I'm not saying (that the prequels don't exist), and we'll just keep on ignoring you. Especially since Lucas has repeated what he said several times since.

Something you don't seem to understand. Lucas defined the prophecy and how it was fulfilled. He has repeated it. And he has never said anything to contradict it. Nothing in any of the prequels contradict it. And nothing about what he has said about it contradicts the OT either (which is friggin' why he did it that way!). But what he says does contradict your pet theory. So the burden of proof is therefore on you. If you really think your pet theory is the correct one, you need to demonstrate where the other one does not work or where Lucas contradicts it.

Ya know, the more I write, the more I realize that you've got nothing to stand on. You're now arguing that his quotes represent his view of the Prophecy only at the time he made Ep1. Yet, he somehow realized during Ep2 or Ep3 that the prophecy means something else? But, what has changed? The answer is: Nothing. You base your pet theory on the Jedi being killed off by Anakin and Luke being some hybrid of Sith and Jedi (which is untrue, but for our purposes here, we'll indulge it). Are you saying that Lucas just became aware that Anakin will kill off the Jedi? Are you saying that he just became aware of how his own movie (Rotj) ended twenty years ago?

The plot points that you use to come to your conclusion have been known to Lucas (and indeed, to us) for twenty-five years. So to argue that Lucas changed his mind about the prophecy between Episode 1 and Episode 2-3 based on these "revalations" is just plain lame.

But, here's another point. Lucas never claimed that Vader himself killed off all the Jedi. And that's not the way it happened on screen. Rather, he has said that Vader "helped" the Emperor kill all the Jedi. And did some hunting down and mopping up later. So, if killing all the Jedi is what brings balance to the force by the end of Episode III, how is it that Anakin brings it about when it's actually the Clone Troopers doing all the killing? Anakin just goes to the temple and kills a bunch of kids. How is he the "Chosen One" in that scenario? You might as well call "Jango Fett" the "Chosen One" since it's his clones that kill off the Jedi, not Anakin.

Just for fun, let's go through this piece by piece (I've got a server backup running this morning and have little better to do than run your pet little theory into the ground):

Step right up for the Battle-Royale!

In contention:

George Lucas (w/ assist from Uxi in italics): One side needs to be destroyed in order to restore balance. That side is the Sith. Anakin restores balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine. The balance of the force has nothing to do with how many force users their are on either side, but the way in which they use the Force. The Jedi, being always mindful of the balance of the Force, need not die to bring the Force back into balance.

Duke Togo's Oh-so-smart Theory (which just about everyone came up with and discarded as soon as they were presented with contrary evidence): Anakin restores balance to the force by killing all the Jedi except two. . . and thus balances things between the Sith and Jedi (he and Palpatine vs Yoda and Obi-Wan). Then, in Jedi, he would seem to destroy that balance by killing Palpatine, but because he also dies, he only leaves Luke who doesn't represent an imbalance because he is a hybrid between Jedi and Sith.

Pro Togo Pet Theory

• It sounds cool and makes some amount of sense at first glance.
  

Con Togo Pet Theory

• Lucas has directly contradicted it several times via interviews (this should really be all we need, and I could list each quote individually here for effect. But there' also common sense to consider. . .).
  
• The Jedi are demonstrated to be mindful of the balance of the Force.
  
• Anakin isn't actually the instrument of the vast majority of Jedi deaths in EpIII.
  
• Luke is not Sith/Jedi hybrid: Trained by old-school Jedi
  
• Luke is not Sith/Jedi hybrid: He clearly reject the Dark Side. "I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed your Highness."
  
• Luke is not Sith/Jedi hybrid: "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
  
• Luke is not Sith/Jedi hybrid: The title of the final movie: Return of the Jedi
  

I could go on. But I think everyone gets the point. Really, this whole theory that the Jedi had to die is just in keeping with this new view that they deserved it. I don't even think Lucas intended for us to think that way (though he did want to show us why they fell, because they had gotten a bit arrogant and complacent). Lucas obviously considers the Jedi to be the good guys. But we've got a whole generation of "root for the bad guys" types nowadays that he may not have considered. Nor did he consider the lengths they will go to in order to twist things to their view.

Edited May 25, 2005 by Hurin

[Prime]

While the EU stuff was never made canon, it has sort of struck me that Lucasfilm endorses the books, at least, and it seems that Lucas has been conent to let the EU authors run with the story.

ACtually, I beleive they have made the EU stories canon to a certain extent. It boils down to that the movies are the most canon and override everything else. The books, games, comics, etc. are the next level canon. In the case of games where there are options for being light side or dark side (like KOTOR and the JK series) the light side option is considered canon.

This would explained in one of those "ask the Jedi Coucil" things on starwars.com. The link for those seems to be broken right now.

Also, Lucas has stated that the EU is a parallel universe that does not affect his films. Thus, he can do whatever he wants with them.

Also, like Knights of the Old Republic has shown, there's a lot of untapped potential in the thousands of years before the prequels.  I personally think a story about a young Yoda and his Jedi companions battling to wrest control of the galaxy form the Dark Lords of the Sith would, in all likeliness, be more entertaining that a story about the tedium rebuilding the Republic and creating a new Jedi Order (with all respect to Zahn's novels, which are in fact quite good).

I agree completely about the potential of the Old Republic era in regards to stories. There is just so much freedom there, especially before the rule of two comes about and there are armies of Sith.

I also agree about the post-ROTJ stories. While there are some good ones, most concepts seem pretty forced. The story of the Empire and Luke and the gang really is wrapped up at the end of ROTJ and their character archs are complete. In regards to the NJO, the fact that they felt they had to deviate so dramatically form anything Star Wars screams to me that the potential of that era has long since been used up. The other problem is that since all those stories were written before ROTS, there are plot holes and inconsistencies as well as just parts that probably would have been done differently now.

[Duke Togo]

Keep arguing against something I'm not saying (that the prequels don't exist), and we'll just keep on ignoring you.

For someone who is ignoring me, you sure are putting out alot of text in response to me.

[Hurin]

Keep arguing against something I'm not saying (that the prequels don't exist), and we'll just keep on ignoring you.

For someone who is ignoring me, you sure are putting out alot of text in response to me.

Care to add some substance to that? Or are you admitting that you're full of crap?

[do not disturb]

i didn't read anything GL had to say but its my understanding that vader brought balance to the force when he killed the emperor.

in epi 2, both yoda and windu both said, "we must tell the senate we have lost our ability to use the force". the sith(or sidous) became too strong and so strong that his powers began to cloud the judgement of the jedi, hence the force was not balanced. after getting anakin(who is the most powerful of all the jedi) to join the sith, the force became truly unbalanced. then when vader "turned" back to anakin after tossing the emperor in rotj, then and only then was the force brought back into balance.

thats just my 2 cents.

[Duke Togo]

Keep arguing against something I'm not saying (that the prequels don't exist), and we'll just keep on ignoring you.

For someone who is ignoring me, you sure are putting out alot of text in response to me.

Care to add some substance to that? Or are you admitting that you're full of crap?

You are ignoring me, and you just responded to me again. Who is full of crap?

So, explain this to me. How is the Force "in balance", if only the Light Side is left? That seems fairly one sided to me.

[Opus]

I didn't feel like reading through all of the posts so please forgive me if you've heard this one before but I've got a kooky little theory for you all.

Palpatine alludes to having been the apprentice to a Sith who can manipulate life and metachlorines(sp?) in the way in which he delivers the story to Vaderkin. He later IMO confirms having this ability when he touches Vader's head after the lava scene. Therefore it is my opinion that Palpatine created Anakin's "immaculate" conception by manipulation of the Force. Palpatine then planted the prophecy to decieve the Jedi. The next step was to contrive the events that unfolded in the prequels in order to groom the ultimate apprentice.

I have no doubt it'll take you experts no time to shoot this full of holes so fire away.

[Hurin]

You are ignoring me, and you just responded to me again. Who is full of crap?

I'm ignoring your claim that I'm denying the existence of the prequels. Because it's nonsense. The rest of it, I'm happy to address.

So, explain this to me. How is the Force "in balance", if only the Light Side is left? That seems fairly one sided to me.

I can't help it if you're unwilling to read and/or consider the explanation that has been posted several times. As usual, you give no indication that you have actually read, much less considered or understood, the counter-arguments to your boldy asserted "truths."

Funny, there was a heated debate with someone essentially espousing your view over at the Original Trilogy Forums. But Uxi's explanation (which has been posted at leats four times here) answered the question you ask, and essentially ended the debate. The guy taking your side conceded that Uxi's explanation made more sense and (more importantly) jived better with what Lucas has said.

But, of course, he had the advantage in that he actually appears to take the time to read what other people say. Rather than just spouting his theories and asserting that everyone else is wrong with no analysis or reasons given.

One more time:

The imbalance in the Force is not a question of quantity of Force users on either side. It is about how the Force is used. A Jedi serves as a vessel of the Force, he does not manipulate (whenever possible) to satisfy his own desires and needs, but instead tries to be guided by the Force itself. A Jedi, therefore, is a protector, or a conserver of the Force. A Sith, on the other hand, uses the Force for selfish reasons, and uses it without any concern for its will. A Sith or Dark Jedi uses the Force whenever possible, for his own needs and power, and is not concerned with conserving it or using it only when necessary.

Or, as Uxi put it (much more succinctly):

The imbalance in the Force is Sidious, not the Jedi. A properly trained Jedi acts with the balance of the Force in mind. Ultimately selfless and the means justify the end. The Sith care nothing about the balance, using the Force to only augment themselves. Ultimately selfish and the ends justify the means.

Now, I realize that you appear to be mesmerized by simple math: "Wow! 2 Jedi = 2 Sith! That must be the Prophecy's meaning!" But that's an awfully narrow view. And a stubborn one considering all the evidence (including Lucas's own words) amassed against it.

Truthfully, at this point, I think you realize that you're obviously wrong. And, you're now just trying to provoke me into some tirade by making these types of posts without addressing any of the (many) arguments against your view and/or asking the same question even though it has been addressed already several times. Really, I don't think you're this dumb. But you do a really good job of faking it!

H

[Hurin]

I didn't feel like reading through all of the posts so please forgive me if you've heard this one before but I've got a kooky little theory for you all.

Palpatine alludes to having been the apprentice to a Sith who can manipulate life and metachlorines(sp?) in the way in which he delivers the story to Vaderkin. He later IMO confirms having this ability when he touches Vader's head after the lava scene. Therefore it is my opinion that Palpatine created Anakin's "immaculate" conception by manipulation of the Force. Palpatine then planted the prophecy to decieve the Jedi. The next step was to contrive the events that unfolded in the prequels in order to groom the ultimate apprentice.

I have no doubt it'll take you experts no time to shoot this full of holes so fire away.

Regarding how Anakin was conceived (Sith involvement?):

"Lucas: The midi-chlorians have brought Anakin into being as 'the chosen one' who brings balance to the universe." - The Making of Episode 1, Random House, 1999.

There was some debate about this about 30 posts back with more details.

H

[mikeszekely]

So, explain this to me. How is the Force "in balance", if only the Light Side is left? That seems fairly one sided to me. huh.gif

To see the Force like that is to look at it in a purely good vs. evil way... that is, there is one aspect of the Force that is ultimate good, and one side that is ultimate evil, and both sides balance each other out. If you think of it that way, then sure, having all light siders and no dark siders would seem to upset that balance.

But if you think of it in a more taoist fashion... the Force isn't inherently good or evil, it is simply a part of the natural order, then think of "the Light Side" as a the path of following the natural order of the galaxy and of the Force. Then consider "the Dark Side" as a way of manipulating the Force in a way that goes against the natural order, creating an imbalance in nature and the Force. Balance in the Force, then, isn't achieved through equal use of light and dark, but through elimination of that which goes against nature, or the Dark Side.

[Opus]

Regarding how Anakin was conceived (Sith involvement?):

"Lucas: The midi-chlorians have brought Anakin into being as 'the chosen one' who brings balance to the universe." - The Making of Episode 1, Random House, 1999.

There was some debate about this about 30 posts back with more details.

H

Yeah, but that was six years ago and if we know anything about Lucas it's that he changes his mind more often than an incontenent man changes his drawers.

[Hurin]

But if you think of it in a more taoist fashion... the Force isn't inherently good or evil, it is simply a part of the natural order, then think of "the Light Side" as a the path of following the natural order of the galaxy and of the Force. Then consider "the Dark Side" as a way of manipulating the Force in a way that goes against the natural order, creating an imbalance in nature and the Force. Balance in the Force, then, isn't achieved through equal use of light and dark, but through elimination of that which goes against nature, or the Dark Side.

Exactly! I struggled with how to say this (because this has been stated in some of the film novels before. . . or it might have been in Zahn), but couldn't even come close to explaining it this well. Especially without losing focus and rambling on for another page or so. . .

Thanks!

H

[Duke Togo]

Now, I realize that you appear to be mesmerized by simple math: "Wow! 2 Jedi = 2 Sith!

No, but thanks for playing. And you play off the Jedi as this group of innocents, while the Prequels show that obviously to not be the case. They are more concerned with their dogma and their place in things than the will of the Force. And the Sith don't use the Force to further their own agenda, the Dark Side of the Force controls them. Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Once you give in to the Dark Side of the Force, you become bent to its will, not your own.

I won't go as far to say the Prequel Jedi are corrupt, but they are certainly out of touch with the Force. Qui Gon is considered a maverick and a rebel because of his beliefs, but he himself is redeemed at the end of Sith, as Yoda recognizes the mistakes they made, and the wisdom of what Qui Gon believed in. You play down "the Living Force" because you are stuck in the Original Trilogy. The Force is not good or bad, it is the Force. Its gray, and there is where the balance lies. What Obi Wan and Yoda teach Luke in the Original trilogy are the teachings of Qui Gon.

[Duke Togo]

I found these great bits from Paul F. McDonald of Space.com:

Lucas has constructed a fallen galaxy, one whose inhabitants have eaten of the tree of knowledge and know good from evil. It is a galaxy of opposites, sharply divided between Tatooine and Coruscant, Imperial and Rebel, Light Side and Dark Side.

In a universe filled with dualities, it becomes essential for Anakin to fall from grace -- to cross from side to side, and back again -- if he is to bring balance to the Force.

----

Anakin does more than break away from the Dark Side. He breaks through the web of apparent oppositions that cloaks the true nature of the Force itself.

"The separateness in the world is secondary," Campbell wrote. "Beyond the world of opposites is an unseen, but experienced, unity and identity in us all."

Anakin recognizes this and makes it a reality. For a moment, all the cosmic tumblers click into place, and the Light and the Dark Sides become two parts of Anakin’s whole.

Edited May 25, 2005 by Duke Togo

[Hurin]

And you play off the Jedi as this group of innocents, while the Prequels show that obviously to not be the case. They are more concerned with their dogma and their place in things than the will of the Force.

And you're basing this on. . . what? Where do the Jedi ever give you the impression that they don't care about the will of the Force? Again, you really seem to be in love with the idea that the Jedi deserved what happened to them. Yet you fail to take into account that it was Sidious himself that was trying to portray the Jedi as corrupt and deserving of annihilation.

And the Sith don't use the Force to further their own agenda, the Dark Side of the Force controls them.  Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

It's not that the Dark Side controls you. It's that you cannot let go of the power that it provides you. . . to control others and have your will be done through your use of the Force rather than doing the Force's will as its vessel. Only Anakin was strong enough to finally cast off the tempations and power granted to him by embracing the Dark Side.

As for the Sith not using the Force to further their own agenda: I'm pretty sure that's actually the definition of a Sith or Dark Jedi. Doesn't Sidious himself say that the Jedi limit themselves, but the Sith allow themselves to use the Force for progress and power? I'd have to see the scene again (or read ahead in the book). But that's what I recall.

Sidious tries to portray their perversion of the Force as something good and no different from the Jedi. But, this is Sidious talking, while trying to seduce Anakin. Your willingness to (yet again) buy into Sith Propoganda is a bit troubling!

Once you give in to the Dark Side of the Force, you become bent to its will, not your own.

Again, this supposes that the Force actually has two wills. . . a Dark will and a Light will. Which, is just silly (according to what we've always been told). The Force is the Force. It has one will. One side attempts to understand it and follow it. The other side tries to bend the Force to its will. Thus throwing it out of balance.

I won't go as far to say the Prequel Jedi are corrupt, but they are certainly out of touch with the Force.

Yes, they are. Because Sidious has made them that way through his unbalancing the Force. There is a line where Mace Windu says that they need to inform the Senate that their use of the Force is now clouded (Is that Ep1 or Ep2).

Qui Gon is considered a maverick and a rebel because of his beliefs, but he himself is redeemed at the end of Sith, as Yoda recognizes the mistakes they made, and the wisdom of what Qui Gon believed in.

There's a lot of hero worship now of Gui Gon, and yes, he figured out how to merge with the Force. But I think the rest of that is over-stated.

You play down "the Living Force" because you are stuck in the Original Trilogy.

The concept of the "Living Force" is not new. It is in the OT just as much as the PT. Indeed, the understanding of there being only one Force and one will, I would think is central to understanding it. Yet it is there where you seem a bit "stuck."

The Force is not good or bad, it is the Force. Its gray, and there is where the balance lies.

You're contradicting yourself now. How can there be a Light will and a Dark will if there is no good or bad? How can someone be "dominated" by the Dark Side once they embrace it, if there is no Dark or "bad" side?

What Obi Wan and Yoda teach Luke in the Original trilogy are the teachings of Qui Gon.

Again, contradicting yourself. How can I be stuck on the "non-living Force" because I'm so attached to the OT, if what they are teaching in the OT is the theology of the "Living Force?"

In all sincerity, thank you for actually engaging a bit in the debate. But I must poit out that you are still leaving a lot of the prior questions above (and my rebuttals) unanswered. Such as: How can you ignore what Lucas has said on the matter? And, if you claim he wrote that before Episodes 2 and 3 and there were plot points that changed his mind, what possible "suprise" plot point came about that could change his mind considering that the events have been known for decades? How about how Anakin can be the instrument of the "prophecy" that you believe in, even though he didn't kill the Jedi? There's others of course, and those are short, poorly worded abbreviations of those questions asked above, but I'm already delighted that I got this much out of you.

H

[Duke Togo]

Again, this supposes that the Force actually has two wills. . . a Dark will and a Light will. Which, is just silly (according to what we've always been told). The Force is the Force. It has one will. One side attempts to understand it and follow it. The other side tries to bend the Force to its will. Thus throwing it out of balance.

You don't get it. The Force doesn't know good from evil. I think the Space.com quotes do a better job explaining this than anything I could say. I am going to stand with that as my side of the argument, and I guess this won't be settled until we get to hear the Episode III DVD commentary track.

Edited May 25, 2005 by Duke Togo

[Duke Togo]

I wanted to add this... its easy to ignore what Lucas said 20, 15, 10, and even 5 years ago, because there has been more Star Wars since then. The story evolved.

[Hurin]

You don't get it. The Force doesn't know good from evil. I think the Space.com quotes do a better job explaining this than anything I could say. I am going to stand with that as my side of the argument, and I guess this won't be settled until we get to hear the Episode III DVD commentary track.

I've got George Lucas supporting his view of the Prophecy. You've got. . . Paul F. McDonald supporting yours?

Well, I guess we'll call it a day then if that's all I'm going to get out of you. But I'd also like to point out that the venerable Paul F. McDonald doesn't say anything about the Prophecy and really doesn't support your view of its meaning. He merely waxes eloquent about the Force and expounds upon how Anakin needed to be a Sith before he could kill Palpatine. Nobody is arguing with that.

Out,

H

[bsu legato]

So does this mean that Hurin has not only seen Sith, but liked it? Or does he just like reading his own posts?

[Duke Togo]

So does this mean that Hurin has not only seen Sith, but liked it? Or does he just like reading his own posts?

Its a bit of both, I think.

[Duke Togo]

But I'd also like to point out that the venerable Paul F. McDonald doesn't say anything about the Prophecy and really doesn't support your view of its meaning.

Actually...

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/movies...med_000510.html

You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this boy?

-- Mace Windu

When we first heard these cryptic words in the trailer for The Phantom Menace, they sparked wild speculation. What does the prophecy mean, and what will bring it to fruition?

The meaning may lie in the fundamental nature of the Star Wars universe.

Lucas has constructed a fallen galaxy, one whose inhabitants have eaten of the tree of knowledge and know good from evil. It is a galaxy of opposites, sharply divided between Tatooine and Coruscant, Imperial and Rebel, Light Side and Dark Side.

In a universe filled with dualities, it becomes essential for Anakin to fall from grace -- to cross from side to side, and back again -- if he is to bring balance to the Force.

Songs of innocence and experience

The poet Ted Roethke once wrote, "In a dark time, the eye begins to see." One cannot bring balance to something one knows nothing about, and Anakin must understand both good and evil if he is to fulfill prophecy.

The Wedding of Machine and Man

Good to evil to good isn't the only circular path Darth Vader walks. In an ironic reminder that history repeats itself, Anakin begins the saga enslaved with a transmitter in his body, is freed and becomes enslaved to technology again in the form of his suit and oxygen mask.

We see Anakin undergo more transformations than any other character in the saga, changing so much that at least four actors -- not even counting James Earl Jones – will play him by the time Episode III’s end credits roll.

Anakin's face evolves from that of a child, to the terrifying visage of Darth Vader, to something else entirely in the final moments of Return of the Jedi.

And his destiny is fixed, most strikingly because we have already seen the second half of his story. That said, his free will is crucial to that destiny -- as Lucas has said, "you can find your destiny and you can choose to follow it, or not."

In The Phantom Menace, Anakin takes the first steps towards his fate by vowing to return to Tatooine and free his mother. Shmi Skywalker will be returning in Episode II, but it seems unlikely that Anakin will be able to fulfill his vow.

We know little of the events that will bring Anakin to embrace the Dark Side. But even at the end of the story, free will is a crucial factor – for all Vader's talk about destiny, it is ultimately his own choice to defy and destroy the Emperor that restores balance to the Force.

The personal made universal

Some critics – science fiction author David Brin, for instance – have downplayed the significance of this moment. They argue that the return of Vader to the Light Side is merely a personal victory; that the second Death Star would have been destroyed and Palpatine killed regardless of what happened in the Emperor’s throne room.

That’s not necessarily so.

Whether it's a matter of cinematic pacing or the will of the Force, the Battle of Endor does not turn in the rebels’ favor until the Emperor dies. In the Lucas-sanctioned ROTJ novelization, James Kahn attributes the rising tide of chaos in the Imperial fleet to the loss of the "central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire."

Vader’s return to the Light Side is also essential on the mythic level George Lucas loves.

Joseph Campbell wrote in The Hero with a Thousand Faces that "one thing that comes out in myths is that at the bottom of the abyss comes the voice of salvation. The black moment is the moment when the real message is going to come. At the darkest moment comes the light."

The abyss doesn’t come much deeper than the twisted soul of a broken man, kept alive by technology after betraying everything he dreamed of as a child.

Vader knows the abyss personally -- more intimately than any of the Jedi, who wall themselves off from the Dark Side -- and his slaying of the Emperor is the overt act that expresses a deeper spiritual realization.

When Vader redeems himself, the good guys have won. The exploding Death Star is just the fireworks.

Break on through to the other side

Anakin does more than break away from the Dark Side. He breaks through the web of apparent oppositions that cloaks the true nature of the Force itself.

"The separateness in the world is secondary," Campbell wrote. "Beyond the world of opposites is an unseen, but experienced, unity and identity in us all."

Anakin recognizes this and makes it a reality. For a moment, all the cosmic tumblers click into place, and the Light and the Dark Sides become two parts of Anakin’s whole.

He brings balance by transcending the dualities of the Force, by realizing that he does not have to remain on the Dark Side. For him, the Dark Side becomes a passage, the underworld or dark forest that mythic heroes frequently have to traverse – a pilgrimage foreshadowed by Luke’s trip through the tree in The Empire Strikes Back.

Vader’s act of atoning for his time on the Dark Side -- atonement, as they say, is another way of writing "at-one-ment" -- is also atonement with the rest of the galaxy. As Vader and son are reconciled, so Anakin is reconciled with his "father", the Force, the galaxy.

The separateness in the world of opposites, the gnawing gap between individual and galaxy, closes.

Anakin Skywalker has found balance in the Force.

[Duke Togo]

Paul F. McDonald isn't exactly an unknown in Star Wars fandom.

[Hurin]

I wanted to add this... its easy to ignore what Lucas said 20, 15, 10, and even 5 years ago, because there has been more Star Wars since then. The story evolved.

Didn't see your follow-up post before submitting. I'll be brief (since BSU Legato seems annoyed and we can't have that! It might "ruin" the thread!). Most of your view of the Prophecy is based on stuff in Episode I (Qui Gon's views on the "Living Force", etc.). Yet, you find it very easy to dismiss what Lucas said about the Prophecy in the Making of Episode I book. When Lucas wrote that, he was already well aware of all the things that you now cite as the basis for your view.

[Hurin]

Do you even read your own posts? Or the articles you claim support your position? It now appears that I now have the venerable Paul F. McDonald on my side. Screw George Lucas! Who needs him!

Check out the bold text in your own article. And seriously, man. Just stop. It's over.

H

You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this boy?

-- Mace Windu

When we first heard these cryptic words in the trailer for The Phantom Menace, they sparked wild speculation. What does the prophecy mean, and what will bring it to fruition?

The meaning may lie in the fundamental nature of the Star Wars universe.

Lucas has constructed a fallen galaxy, one whose inhabitants have eaten of the tree of knowledge and know good from evil. It is a galaxy of opposites, sharply divided between Tatooine and Coruscant, Imperial and Rebel, Light Side and Dark Side.

In a universe filled with dualities, it becomes essential for Anakin to fall from grace -- to cross from side to side, and back again -- if he is to bring balance to the Force.

Songs of innocence and experience

The poet Ted Roethke once wrote, "In a dark time, the eye begins to see." One cannot bring balance to something one knows nothing about, and Anakin must understand both good and evil if he is to fulfill prophecy.

The Wedding of Machine and Man

Good to evil to good isn't the only circular path Darth Vader walks. In an ironic reminder that history repeats itself, Anakin begins the saga enslaved with a transmitter in his body, is freed and becomes enslaved to technology again in the form of his suit and oxygen mask.

We see Anakin undergo more transformations than any other character in the saga, changing so much that at least four actors -- not even counting James Earl Jones – will play him by the time Episode III’s end credits roll.

Anakin's face evolves from that of a child, to the terrifying visage of Darth Vader, to something else entirely in the final moments of Return of the Jedi.

And his destiny is fixed, most strikingly because we have already seen the second half of his story. That said, his free will is crucial to that destiny -- as Lucas has said, "you can find your destiny and you can choose to follow it, or not."

In The Phantom Menace, Anakin takes the first steps towards his fate by vowing to return to Tatooine and free his mother. Shmi Skywalker will be returning in Episode II, but it seems unlikely that Anakin will be able to fulfill his vow.

We know little of the events that will bring Anakin to embrace the Dark Side. But even at the end of the story, free will is a crucial factor – for all Vader's talk about destiny, it is ultimately his own choice to defy and destroy the Emperor that restores balance to the Force.

The personal made universal

Some critics – science fiction author David Brin, for instance – have downplayed the significance of this moment. They argue that the return of Vader to the Light Side is merely a personal victory; that the second Death Star would have been destroyed and Palpatine killed regardless of what happened in the Emperor’s throne room.

That’s not necessarily so.

Whether it's a matter of cinematic pacing or the will of the Force, the Battle of Endor does not turn in the rebels’ favor until the Emperor dies. In the Lucas-sanctioned ROTJ novelization, James Kahn attributes the rising tide of chaos in the Imperial fleet to the loss of the "central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire."

Vader’s return to the Light Side is also essential on the mythic level George Lucas loves.

Joseph Campbell wrote in The Hero with a Thousand Faces that "one thing that comes out in myths is that at the bottom of the abyss comes the voice of salvation. The black moment is the moment when the real message is going to come. At the darkest moment comes the light."

The abyss doesn’t come much deeper than the twisted soul of a broken man, kept alive by technology after betraying everything he dreamed of as a child.

Vader knows the abyss personally -- more intimately than any of the Jedi, who wall themselves off from the Dark Side -- and his slaying of the Emperor is the overt act that expresses a deeper spiritual realization.

When Vader redeems himself, the good guys have won. The exploding Death Star is just the fireworks.

Break on through to the other side

Anakin does more than break away from the Dark Side. He breaks through the web of apparent oppositions that cloaks the true nature of the Force itself.

"The separateness in the world is secondary," Campbell wrote. "Beyond the world of opposites is an unseen, but experienced, unity and identity in us all."

Anakin recognizes this and makes it a reality. For a moment, all the cosmic tumblers click into place, and the Light and the Dark Sides become two parts of Anakin’s whole.

He brings balance by transcending the dualities of the Force, by realizing that he does not have to remain on the Dark Side. For him, the Dark Side becomes a passage, the underworld or dark forest that mythic heroes frequently have to traverse – a pilgrimage foreshadowed by Luke’s trip through the tree in The Empire Strikes Back.

Vader’s act of atoning for his time on the Dark Side -- atonement, as they say, is another way of writing "at-one-ment" -- is also atonement with the rest of the galaxy. As Vader and son are reconciled, so Anakin is reconciled with his "father", the Force, the galaxy.

The separateness in the world of opposites, the gnawing gap between individual and galaxy, closes.

Anakin Skywalker has found balance in the Force.

Edited May 25, 2005 by Hurin

[Duke Togo]

it is ultimately his own choice to defy and destroy the Emperor that restores balance to the Force.

I don't see how this proves your argument.

[Hurin]

it is ultimately his own choice to defy and destroy the Emperor that restores balance to the Force.

I don't see how this proves your argument.

Your argument is that it is Luke that provides balance to the Force because he is a Jedi/Sith hybrid. And that both the Jedi and the Sith had to die before he could be the embodiment of that balance.

The Venerable Mr. McDonald, on the other hand says that balance is restored when the Emperor dies at Vader's hands. He makes no mention of Luke at all. He states clearly that it is the act of killing the Emperor which restores balance. Anakin (not Luke) is the instrument of it. . . not your view of Luke's dual nature (which you've invented ex nihilo).

You could say (if you wanted to be intellectually dishonest and downright weasely) that what he says doesn't explicitly rule out Luke's dual nature or the death of the Jedi in establishing balance. But, come on man! Look at the handwriting on the wall! I could just as easily say that I think Yoda had to have a third testical in order for the Force to be balanced, and McDonald's article doesn't rule that out either!

But, Lucas does rule out all your other factors. Lucas has said that one or the other side had to go to put the Force back into balance. He said explicitly that the side that had to go was the Sith. And McDonald merely repeats it while expounding on the dual nature of Anakin. Yet, in some way you can't explain, you say this article supports your view when it quite obviously does the opposite.

You're hilarious dude.

Edited May 25, 2005 by Hurin

[Duke Togo]

I've spent some time now poking around other message boards, reading discussions on this topic, and I have come to the conclusion that Lucas farted all of this up. There is no one answer here, no right or wrong answer. The truth is, its unknown. The only answers you will really get are from the EU, which isn't canon. Too many contridictions.

[Hurin]

I've spent some time now poking around other message boards, reading discussions on this topic, and I have come to the conclusion that Lucas farted all of this up. There is no one answer here, no right or wrong answer. The truth is, its unknown. The only answers you will really get are from the EU, which isn't canon. Too many contridictions.