Lorelei

[the white drew carey]

Lorelei trailer

Has anyone heard of this movie? I din't understand a word of Japanese, so I haven't the faintest clue of what's going on, but it seems to have some sci-fi elements to it, especially in an aerial shot of a bunch of surface ships being pulled sideways (towards the end).

Anyone have an idea?

[Guppy]

Looks like a Japanese version of 'Das Boot'.. I am guessing the ships getting pulled sideways is the 'secret weapon' in action the american captain mentions. Looks pretty good, especially now for me - I am watching and reading heaps of WW2 stuff.

[JsARCLIGHT]

As long as they play the Styx song somewhere in the movie I'm all for it.

Lorelei leeeeeeet's liiiiiiiiive together!

[Sundown]

Here's a spoiler... The Japanese lose!

In all seriousness, looks vaguely interesting, if I could just figure out what the heck is going on. And why's that woman running around on that ship? This is the wartime Japanese Navy. It's a men thing. Not in that kind of way.

-Al

[Yohsho]

I think its a japanese version of das boot, but with a girl as their secret weapon.

[the white drew carey]

Here's a spoiler... The Japanese lose!

In all seriousness, looks vaguely interesting, if I could just figure out what the heck is going on. And why's that woman running around on that ship? This is the wartime Japanese Navy. It's a men thing. Not in that kind of way.

-Al

That's one of the reasons I think this may be more than a simple war movie.

There's the one part where the American says: "It seems the Witch is carrying some type of secret weapon."

Maybe the secret weapon isn't mechanical in nature, the name of the ship means more than what it seems and that is why the woman is one the ship.

Hmmm...

???

[Sundown]

There's the one part where the American says: "It seems the Witch is carrying some type of secret weapon."

I must be really slow. I just chalked the out-of-place-woman to silly filmmaking and a romantic relationship forcefully crammed in. As in, err, we just sort of picked her up from some boat or island somewhere. And now your girlfriend might watch this movie too.

She's probably a psychic, telenetic, a real witchy witch, or something. Okay, now the movie is starting to get neater.

Hrm:

Lorelei-- Origin, German. 'Temptress'; A rocky cliff on the Rhine river dangerous to boat passage; the Lorelei whose singing lures men to destruction.

Plot device woman. Boats. Sounds like you're on the right track, WDC.

-Al

Edited February 17, 2005 by Sundown

[Agent ONE]

NO SCHWARZENEGGER = NOT A GOOD MOVIE.

[Phyrox]

Well, the action looks a bit too "actiony" for naval warfare, but that's movies for ya.

The REALLY exciting part is that the sub seems to be the Surcouf. The coolest submarine ever made. The only problem is that it was French and was sunk mid-war in the Caribbean (if I recall correctly). If this movie has a good CGI Surcouf, I will watch it, no matter how lame. The cruiser subs get nowhere near the amount of attention they deserve.

Surcouf - twin 8" guns in trainable turret, one aircraft in airtight hanger, more torpedo tubes than you can shake a stick at (many of them external...thus not reloadable). Largest sub in the world at its construction, and with the second biggest guns ever put on a submarine.

And, it looks cool.

I WILL watch this movie (assuming my eyes haven't decived me and it is the Surcouf)

[Duke Togo]

NO SCHWARZENEGGER = NOT A GOOD MOVIE.

But Jean Claude Van Damme plays the role of the woman.

[Duke Togo]

The REALLY exciting part is that the sub seems to be the Surcouf. The coolest submarine ever made. The only problem is that it was French and was sunk mid-war in the Caribbean (if I recall correctly).

The fact that it is French pretty much precludes it from being cool. It also pretty much assures that it is fairly lame.

[JELEINEN]

Looks interesting. Makes me wish someone would sub more of Zipang.

[Phyrox]

The REALLY exciting part is that the sub seems to be the Surcouf.  The coolest submarine ever made.  The only problem is that it was French and was sunk mid-war in the Caribbean (if I recall correctly).

The fact that it is French pretty much precludes it from being cool. It also pretty much assures that it is fairly lame.

Ah, that's just jingoistic nonsence.

The French have a bad run of it the last...oh 200 years or so, but that has nothing to do with the quality of their equipment.

the famous "75" from the First World War,

SPADs and Nieuports from the same,

Somua S-35 and Char B1 tanks from the Second...

those are just the most obvious that pop into mind.

[JELEINEN]

Here's what the IMDB has to say about it (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0406941/):

Lorelei: The Witch of the Pacific Ocean (2005)

A drama set during World War II where a submarine carrying a secret weapon attempts to stop a planned third atomic bombing of Japan. Based on Harutoshi Fukui's novel Shuusen no Lorelei.

[Major Johnathan]

I hate to admit it, but the French do build some good ships/planes/vehicles. But they're not very succesful till Germans are at the controls...

Oh, just read Jeleinen's post... it would HAVE to be something about Japan being menaced by A-bombs...

Ya' know, WWII-Pacific theatre, had about a million compelling stories and angles to tell, and when someone in Japan actually does get in to a WWII topic, it MUST be about A-Bombs. This has great propaganda potential...

Edited February 17, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[Duke Togo]

Now why would someone want to go do something silly like stop another atomic bomb? Where is the fun in that???

[Sundown]

Lorelei: The Witch of the Pacific Ocean (2005)

A drama set during World War II where a submarine carrying a secret weapon attempts to stop a planned third atomic bombing of Japan. Based on Harutoshi Fukui's novel Shuusen no Lorelei.

Hey, here's a idea on how to stop a planned third atomic bombing. Just totally off the top of my head.

Surrender! Like they should have the first two times.

Oh, just read Jeleinen's post... it would HAVE to be something about Japan being menaced by A-bombs... 

Ya' know, WWII-Pacific theatre, had about a million compelling stories and angles to tell, and when someone in Japan actually does get in to a WWII topic, it MUST be about A-Bombs. This has great propaganda potential...

Well the plot hook seems interesting. I love speculative history. But in a way, it seems like this is one of the few ways Japan can "win" in a WWII movie and a Japanese viewer might be satisfied-- to suggest that Japan's forces might somehow have prevented even greater suffering and tragedy by their heroic actions.

But seriously... there's a way they could have done just that. I refer you the vaguely plausible solution above.

It's not like the US was dropping A-bombs for their own good humor. And Japanese popular media seems to have forgotten that a decade long war starting in Manchuria wasn't all about two thermonuclear explosions.

For what it's worth, I just ran into some sources on the net that cite that from declassifed WWII documents, Japan was working on and implementing their own A-bomb. No idea, if it's really true. I doubt they would have practiced any more restraint than the U.S. had.

At any rate, to be completely fair, supposedly Japanese diplomats had been attempting surrender, though not unconditional, with the issue of contention being retaining the rule of the Emperor. There were Japanese military leaders determined to hold out and fight a decisive battle, however.

But you gotta admit... even three days after Hiroshima, Japan's government hadn't come to a consensus of unconditional surrender. What part of thermouclear explosion do you not understand?

-Al

Edited February 17, 2005 by Sundown

[ewilen]

Not thermonuclear.

And that's just a minor example of the problems with the discussion here about Japanese politics and society.

[Godzilla]

Lorelei: The Witch of the Pacific Ocean (2005)

A drama set during World War II where a submarine carrying a secret weapon attempts to stop a planned third atomic bombing of Japan. Based on Harutoshi Fukui's novel Shuusen no Lorelei.

Hey, here's a idea on how to stop a planned third atomic bombing. Just totally off the top of my head.

Surrender! Like they should have the first two times.

Oh, just read Jeleinen's post... it would HAVE to be something about Japan being menaced by A-bombs... 

Ya' know, WWII-Pacific theatre, had about a million compelling stories and angles to tell, and when someone in Japan actually does get in to a WWII topic, it MUST be about A-Bombs. This has great propaganda potential...

Well the plot hook seems interesting. I love speculative history. But in a way, it seems like this is one of the few ways Japan can "win" in a WWII movie and a Japanese viewer might be satisfied-- to suggest that Japan's forces might somehow have prevented even greater suffering and tragedy by their heroic actions.

But seriously... there's a way they could have done just that. I refer you the vaguely plausible solution above.

It's not like the US was dropping A-bombs for their own good humor. And Japanese popular media seems to have forgotten that a decade long war starting in Manchuria wasn't all about two thermonuclear explosions.

For what it's worth, I just ran into some sources on the net that cite that from declassifed WWII documents, Japan was working on and implementing their own A-bomb. No idea, if it's really true. I doubt they would have practiced any more restraint than the U.S. had.

At any rate, to be completely fair, supposedly Japanese diplomats had been attempting surrender, though not unconditional, with the issue of contention being retaining the rule of the Emperor. There were Japanese military leaders determined to hold out and fight a decisive battle, however.

But you gotta admit... even three days after Hiroshima, Japan's government hadn't come to a consensus of unconditional surrender. What part of thermouclear explosion do you not understand?

-Al

I really dont think the Japanese gov't knew the extent of the damage of Hiroshima. Yeah, yeah, I know an area flattened to hell is kinda hard to notice but you have to remember the explosion did knock out communications. They couldn't have figured it out that quickly. Or did they gamble the US didnt have another one to use?

If the movie is about the 3rd atomic bomb, didnt Japan Surrendered immediately after the 2nd dropping of the bomb? Yeah, I know Japanese forces didnt get the communications but if the sub commander received orders to stop a 3rd bomb, did they already surrender after the 2nd bomb so why stop it if you surrendered? I mean the Allies was going to use the 3rd one just to cruel unless it was intent of the movie.

As for the Japanese media, you are right but you also forget to mention the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor as well. I would like to see one Japanese movie or anime shed the light to everyone why the A-bomb was dropped and how Japan started it. I am sick of tired of Japanese portraying themselves as as the victims and portraying Americans as the aggressors. I seem to remember that movie Pearl Harbor received a less than favorable opening when it was released in Japan.

[Sundown]

I stand corrected.

And I realize the issues go deeper than they appear at the surface. I'd appreciate feedback on what indeed are problematic assumptions in this discussion, although this thread probably isn't the best place for it.

To Japan's credit, even during the period of time close to the bombing, there didn't exist enormous vehement hatred or blame directed at the U.S. They accepted what occred as a consequence of war... similar to the sentiment that still exists in some form today.

-Al

[the white drew carey]

Godzilla- I think that pearl Harbor didn't receive a favorable opening because it was a crappy movie!!!

I think it's fair for Japanese to feel victimized by the atomic bombings, as they were the first and only to be attacked in such a way. America wasn't the first country to be attacked by terrorism, yet after 9/11 many Americans were bitching and moaning as if no one else in the the world could possibly understand our pain.

Being the victims of nuclear attack is a dubious honor the Japanese alone can hold, I think they have every right to a sense of victimization.

Anyhow, I think this movie looks neat.

[Duke Togo]

Being the victims of nuclear attack is a dubious honor the Japanese alone can hold, I think they have every right to a sense of victimization.

Maybe they shouldn't have been raping, torturing, burning, and killing their way through Asia and then Pacific then, huh?

Anybody care to discuss the Japanese war crimes and crimes against humanity during World War II that rivaled Nazi Germany?

[Agent ONE]

Japan got what they deserved. Its really easy for pussies to feel sorry for the losers but since pussies ARE losers its easy for them to relate.

[ewilen]

I stand corrected.

And I realize the issues go deeper than they appear at the surface. I'd appreciate feedback on what indeed are problematic assumptions in this discussion, although this thread probably isn't the best place for it.

To Japan's credit, even during the period of time close to the bombing, there didn't exist enormous vehement hatred or blame directed at the U.S. They accepted what occred as a consequence of war... similar to the sentiment that still exists in some form today.

-Al

Actually, you have some very thoughtful comments (especially in the other thread ostensibly on the Japanese stealth fighter). But all too much of the stuff going on here is political and inflammatory, and unfortunately informed by...nothing much at all.

Maybe we should watch the movie before passing judgment. And even then remember that this isn't (doesn't look like) a "serious" movie like Saving Private Ryan--it's an alt-history fantasy blockbuster.

The politics, diplomacy, morality, etc. of the decision to drop the A-bomb have been covered by innumerable books and articles. I'd suggest a visit to the library, grab something that looks good off the shelf, and start reading. Some significant and accessible articles can be found in the textbook Major Problems in American Foreign Policy volume II, ed. Paterson. One article is "The Atomic Bomb and Diplomacy", followed by an extensive list under "further reading".

[Phyrox]

Well, I asked my friend (who had heard of the movie), and he said that they are supposedly on a secret German sub.

So I watched the trailer again, and noticed that while it IS the Surcouf in most ways, they changed a few things:

The contours of the forward hull are totally different (and uglier in my opinion)

They have added a piggyback submersible just aft of the hanger

The forward 8" turret has been streamlined

Still, I guess it's good to see the Surocuf getting some love.

Found this image of the ship on the movie webpage. Can anyone translate the history at the bottom, maybe it "explains" the ship choice...my limited knowedge shows that they do say something about France, and it being later used by the Germans (Fu-Ran-Su katakana on the first line, and the designation UF referring to Unterseeboot-Frankreich [Kriegsmarine for "submarine of French origin"])

edit: damn, I have really edited the hell out of this post...

Edited February 18, 2005 by Phyrox

[ewilen]

Huh!

Gundam creator Yoshiyuki Tomino will be make his big-screen debut in the upcoming movie Lorelei, based on Harutoshi Fukui's "Shuusen no Lorelei" novels.  Tomino-sama's role as an Imperial officer has no dialogue, however.

Fukui was responsible for one novelization of Turn-A Gundam and is a huge Gundam fan, being heavily influenced by Mobile Suit Gundam when writing his novels.  When he gave Tomino a brief synopsis of them, Tomino said something along the lines of, "This is a project to rival my own."  (So you know this movie has to be pretty good.)

[Major Johnathan]

It's a fact Japan was working on the A-bomb, just like Germany. A U-Boat that surrendered to the U.S. ,when Germany was defeated, and BEFORE the dropping of the 2 A-Bombs, had aboard enriched uranium and lots of German research data, it was headed for Japan. The two japanese officers that were aboard commited suicide rather than be captured and interrogated.

Hiroshima was both a city and military hubb. If memory serves, the Imperial Navy's 'annapolis' equivalant is there and so were some research and development facilites. I remember something about a Japanese scientist who was close enough to see the white flash and feel the ground shake, after a moment of shock, he thought it had to have been an Atomic explosion. Meaning it wasn't an alien notion to Japan's scientific and military elite. They just got beat to the punch.

Anyway, i agree 'Pearl Harbor' was a terrible movie. 'Tora,Tora,Tora' is far better, reasonably accurate and impressively fair to both sides.

Edited February 18, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[Sundown]

Maybe we should watch the movie before passing judgment. And even then remember that this isn't (doesn't look like) a "serious" movie like Saving Private Ryan--it's an alt-history fantasy blockbuster.

The movie definately looks to be interesting, even if it does belabor the a-bomb subject again. What intrigues me is how the movie connects a secret weapon that affects allied shipping to stopping an a-bomb. Or if it will even use that plot device in the movie.

The politics, diplomacy, morality, etc. of the decision to drop the A-bomb have been covered by innumerable books and articles. I'd suggest a visit to the library, grab something that looks good off the shelf, and start reading.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm being somewhat facetious and thus probably a little insensitive on the matter here in this thread. It's probably a subject you can't be too careful about.

Maybe they shouldn't have been raping, torturing, burning, and killing their way through Asia and then Pacific then, huh?

As much as it might seem like justice from certain perspectives, and as much as Japan's actions in one form or another lead to the fateful bombings, the U.S. didn't make the decision primarily based on Japanese atrocities in Asia. Much of the decision weighed on coercing Japan to surrender unconditionally, and avoiding a potentially greater loss of American as well as Japanese lives in a prolonged ground invasion. Not to mention that the Japanese military was encouraging their civilians to fight to the bitter end. The fact that 200,000 non-combatants were perishing in Asia per month probably played into the decision somewhat, but it likely wasn't the primary motivating factor.

-Al

Edited February 18, 2005 by Sundown

[Major Johnathan]

America wasn't the first country to be attacked by terrorism, yet after 9/11 many Americans were bitching and moaning as if no one else in the the world could possibly understand our pain.

Bitch and moan? I don't recall that. No nation ever absorbed a terrorist attack anywhere near the scale of 9-11. Embassy and cafe bombings, sure. 2 of the tallest buildings on Earth, 1/5 the Penatagon and 4 airliners and 3000 dead, all inside 90 minutes or so? I think that's enough to get a little upset about.

Edited February 18, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[cyde01]

Being the victims of nuclear attack is a dubious honor the Japanese alone can hold, I think they have every right to a sense of victimization.

ok all. i really don not want to be talking about a political topic on a forum for macross, but you are really leaving me no choice.

like you said, 9/11, 3000 dead. no provocation. i'm an american too, i was in tears that day.

yes, japan DID start and provoke the war, as well as committ horrendous war crimes on a similar scale as germany (most civilians didn't know at the time, at least). however,

300,000 combined died from the two nucs, most of them were slow, agonizing deaths.

most large cities were fire bombed. in tokyo alone, over 1 mil died over the course of the war.

the leaders that started the war took control by force, they weren't elected by the people. i'm not saying that the japanese people aren't guilty. they are. they did back the war effort. do they have too much of a victim mentality when they committed a lot of crimes as well? yes they do. should this be discussed here? no, i don't think so.

[Major Johnathan]

Bah..., sorry, long pointless rant edited away.

Edited February 18, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[cyde01]

by the way, getting back on topic, from what i gather from the trailer (i do understand japanese) and just from guessing, i do believe that she is the secret weapon. according to the dialogue, the secret weapon is a kind of sensing device. if you equate sonar to the ears of a sub, the secret weapon is the "eyes of a sub." then, you see the girl wearing headphones and look like she's trying to image something in her head. i guess, the logic is, by using this new detection device they can attack the US fleet before being attacked and thus stop the ship carrying the third warhead.

just sounds like cheesy entertainment to me. nothing to be taken seriously like war movies in the states. however, it still somehow manages to surface all this political stuff in the thread. jeez

[UN Spacy]

That trailer got me pretty darn excited. I love a good submarine.......long, hard, and full of sea men.

[cyde01]

Sigh...  this stuff gets me all worked up. In spite of everything I say, I really am a huge freind of Japan. I love Japan's history, it's very unique culture. Only the Japanese could've invented what we know as 'anime'. No anime and all we'd have are cartoons and Disney. 

  I happen to be a really big Pacific War history buff. In spite of all the nasty stuff Japan did and that I believe they were in the wrong, I understand most of it. the Naval treaties that restricted Japan's Navy (then an ally of America and Britain) were profoundly unfair, racism towards Japanese wasn't exactly unheard of. Japan wanted to prove they could play on the global stage like the Americans and European powers, and they did.  But the utterly gratuitous brutality is a mystery to me. Raping,plundering,enslaving and massacring were just par for the course. Glee in killing. And they didn't stop with the Chinese or other civilians, they were inhuman to POW's, marching them to death, starving them, experimenting on them, placing them in zoo's, in cages with signs 'Yankee Devil' so civilians could taunt them and throw crap at them.  They'd rescue allied sailors/airmen in the water, and then line them up and behead them one by one on the deck. They only did all that because they thought they could get away with it, Japan was surely invincible. After all that, the Japanese of those days knew enough not to expect the least bit of mercy if they lost. They were ready to commit suicide as a people rather than surrender.

    That's why Japan became such a close ally, dare I say freind, of the U.S. They were shocked at how good they were treated once they surrendered. Unlike Germany, America shielded Japan from the Soviets, who wanted half of Japan. Then the U.S. spent billions rebuilding Japan,  and 'forced' Japan to have democracy, equal rights for women, and then handed full sovereignty over. Not exactly how Japan treated countries it conquered.

  One other thing that bugs me, sometimes people compare Japan's Kamikaze pilots with modern Islamic terrorists because they share suicidal tactics. Kamikaze were aimed strictly at warships or military tagets in the midst of a declared war. It may have been a futile and foolish tactic, but it was essentially honorable. Islamic terrorists seek out civilians who are unaware of the danger and kill them indiscriminatly and hide amongst civilians to launch their attacks. That I would hardly describe as honorable.

gets you all worked up, huh. well join the club. i'm all worked up too. and at a forum for ANIME. where stuff is to be kept LIGHT HEARTED AND FUN. i'm not even arguing with you man, i agree with most of your stuff. i don't agree with you posting that stuff on this thread. why, because we're NOT SUPPOSED TO GET WORKED UP at a forum like this. why do you think the admins put a 'nothing political please' note in the title of this forum, for decoration?

i could discuss with you more in detail on these subjects if you like, in private, however. if u want, PM me or email me. or i could send you ANOTHER lengthy PM, if you want. i promise i will keep the discussion intelligible and not emotional.

do i know the horrors that the japanese did during the pacific war? heck yeah, i do. do i feel guilty about it? you bet your ass i do. do i want to be reminded about it when i go to an anime forum seeking fun? you know where this is going.

admins, this thread needs to get locked NOW.

edit: oh yeah, and do i have family and loved ones who suffered because of the war on both sides of the war? yes i do.

Edited February 18, 2005 by cyde01

[Sundown]

according to the dialogue, the secret weapon is a kind of sensing device. if you equate sonar to the ears of a sub, the secret weapon is the "eyes of a sub." then, you see the girl wearing headphones and look like she's trying to image something in her head. i guess, the logic is, by using this new detection device they can attack the US fleet before being attacked and thus stop the ship carrying the third warhead.

If this is true, then that means that the scene with the ships being pulled sideways isn't her doing. Now that I think about it, I remember being able to do just that in one of those sub/destroyer simulations I'd played.

-Al