Death

[Macross_Fanboy]

It had to be G. Boman in Macross plus the movie version. Ouch!! he is still floating in space!

Nah, I'm sure he came back to Earth.

[kanedaestes]

i like to believe that he is still in space, kind of makes it more poetic that way

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I just think that the Anti-UN is made up of dissedents filled with all sorts of scum of the Earth.

That would be how most scifi series would want to portray the anti un. Like in Star wars though I like to think the rebel fighters and rogues (like han solo) are more like heroes who are not afraid to fight for people too weak, scared, or mind-controlled to be able to do anything to free themselves from the power. (similar to innocent people at the hands of nazis: the people supporting them weren't so much "evil" themselves, but rather scared to go against the power and control that had them enslaved. When all that military power is misplaced and goes into the wrong hands somebody has to challenge it to give control back to the people again. Anyone trying to do this would be rebels and seen as traitors, but not to thier conscience.)

It's like in early episodes of star wars where we get hints that senator palpatine is using mind control to take away power from the various leaders through unfair means and yoda and other jedi can't sense where this evil is coming from because it is invisible. If Jar Jar bink's weak-mindedness is being preyed upon using a jedi mind trick, then people have a lot to lose and fear with the loss of power they will eventualy have when the emperor finally takes hold of the goverment and uses military might to squash any resistance to his plan for world (i mean universal) domination.

Even though the rebel fighters might look dirty and unkempt and a ragtag disorganised bunch, (actually that's what makes them cool for being like that) and we prejudge them on early appearances, (isn't han a smuggler?) rather than clean shaven, unthinking drones with no conscience like the imperial storm troopers,... ironically, they are the only ones with the guts, skill, and determination to be able to challenge the empire.

Here's a quote that best sums up why I think realistically there would be restistance to a UN world goverment and why there would be (rightfully) such strong opposition to a world controlled by a single select group whom nobody can trust to listen to the people (as opposed to themselves):

When any human court–even a de facto court like the United Nations–is the highest authority, then morality is reduced to mere power, either the power of the government or the power of the majority. If the courts and the laws define what is moral, then neither laws nor governments can ever be immoral, even in principle. Compliance is the highest good, breaking ranks the greatest evil, regardless of the issue.

I would assume most would be forced to accept a less quality lifestyle and the purpose of resistance would be to fight for all those that had a lot to lose (both in principle, and in terms of power) in some attempt to regain thier freedom and independance. If you were a superpower independant and unreliant from the rest of the world, that had nothing to lose by going against the UN, why bother following thier rules and pretending to care what other nations think about you when most of your beliefs go counter to thiers anyway? Giving up control would be the last thing you would want to do, and like star craft your interests would always come before theirs...unless you were too scared to let all the power and knowledged from alien tech bite you in the bum in future for not co-operating unwillingly.

All those who can't stand being under the one rule would then have to go underground. The truth of human and znetreadi nature is that we were born to kill each other as exedor so clearly put it, so even the UN would have major problems trying to bring peace when humans can't even bring peace to themselves. Much more realistic and deep than just saying we are at war with the usual evil baddie wearing a mask who is laughing maniacally and easier to identify. There's got to be some reason and interesting backstory to how these people came to get that way. If the protoculture made mistakes; wiping themselves out, and we were altered to be like them then there is a chance that humans would almost wipe themselves out through war too.

If Sharon Apple, like hitler or palpatine (with his mind control over vader) used her hypnotic control over the people and machines to take over the world, Terminator 3 style, the only failsafe would be the few who had not fallen sway under that power, to destroy the war machines and bring the resistance to keep the human race alive. You wouldn't get that from people who were aren't seen as stubborn and bull headed (like Isamu and Guld, who always fight against each other) because they wouldn't be persuaded as easily as most people. It's that ability to sense bullshit at the higher level that results in true freedom and independance, but most people would think that thier freedom just comes about for free without needing to fight for it, just by being politically correct and dishonest with themselves for comfort. (costing lives ala Misa's dad who endangered the unprotected world's population who were not hiding in the hole.)

So to make out that the UN is free of criticism and are the good guys (that's not to say there aren't good guys working within the UN) would be an insult to all the dead civilians that died from the UN's stupid decisions. It would be a different story if Misa's dad chose to fight a force that wasn't so large, because the losses may have been minimised, but the whole human race almost got wiped out from 1 crap decision made at the top level.

Millard makes a good point in Mac+ about how human pilots are more effective than drones because the humans may make a drastic decision (like sacrificing themselves - the "necessary evil") which can save many more lives, while a drone wil just follow orders to preseve itself. I can only assume because drones may not have human courage programmed into them or by looking at the bigger picture to protect people. Even drones can be controlled by an AI!

Whereas the UN would like us all to be "drones", follow orders, and listen to your superior, no matter how dumb the decisions they make are, and make you pretend to agree with each other even when you don't, ...there are others would like thier ability to be in control of themselves, be independant from too much control and to follow thier conscience. Nothing wrong with that. Without a few people being a little daring, Myung may have been killed and the casualties would have been far worse with the SDF1 main gain possibly aimed at civilians. (who knows?)

Edited September 18, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[rehnvall]

By the way, Kawamori made a big error: Israel is US best ally. It would never side with Russia

FV

Please I do not want to discuss what is right or wrong in the real world.

In Macross world UN is change to a world goverment. The UN is in comand over the entie world. Today meny goverment ignore the order frome UN, like Iraq and Israel also US (they refuse to pay ther taxes)

The (some) jews belev the land are ther and only thers and they ignore the UN then they condemn the goverment of Israel, then they do special things.

The world UN whant to take comand over the entie world and unite it, but Israel do not want UN to "take" ther land and change the policy, they refuse the UN rule. UN can not acept one nation to continue to be independent, If ther are intependet way can we not?

In the real world Israel suplay war material to Iran in the Iran Iraq war, so they have no problem to allay to the russian who wants indepentent to UN to.

[Final Vegeta]

Please I do not want to discuss what is right or wrong in the real world.

I am not discussing that. It's simply that Kawamori, for whatever reasons, justified or not, perceives the state of Israel as bad (along with former Soviets and Nazis), and so he associated it with the anti-UN (this doesn't mean anti-UN guys are necessarily bad in themselves). I think Macross Zero shows he is not really informed of the current political situation, and I think he doesn't know what a sionist is or what a semite is (ie Arabs and Jews).

Just that.

FV

[rehnvall]

Of curse it do not have the curent politcal situation.... the ww3 thing nerver hapend in the real world

Wher com the nazis in?? the sub have a german city name.....???

Edited September 19, 2004 by rehnvall

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

This is why I like to think all the anti-un is, is anyone (doesn't matter what religion you are) against the idea of a goverment that gets to control everything. Especially those who are tired of more of thier spending (lives and money) for war. I'm thinking the only way the UN is going to get everyone together is through force since most nations I bet would try to steal the tech for thier own nation (although mac 0 suggests the anti un had stumbled upon some tech first) and want to keep it for themselves to influence other nations.

If alien tech was available it would be kept secret, not made available to anyone to be shared, (look at the real world - knowledge is power) the only reasonable advantage of coming together, being fear that the aliens would come back, BUT with the sole intentions of having that power kept not to the people who are giving up thier hard work and sacrificing, as the macross townspeople did, but instead to those who already have it - ie admiral hayases, and all those hiding in the hole in the ground and whom, whether they win or lose, will *still* be in power making all the decisions despite their huge mistakes in judgment which they don't even have to take accountability for)

I'm pretty sure a large group of people just want to forget the alien ship had even crash-landed on earth to begin with so they can rebuild thier life, rather than prepare for even more destruction and loss of thier life and hard-earned dollars. Once people landed a man on the moon nobody really cared about spending that much on science and technology when you think about it, and when you consider the secrecy of the government not letting people know anything about the aliens it's hard to justfy asking the people to support something they know nothing about. (people didn't even know the vf1s were transformable robots until right on the day when the zentreadi arrived, that smacks of mistrust, nobody is given a say and no regards about the ethical uses of the technology itself)

So everything costs MONEY and that funding would need to be spent on things people think they are getting something out of (not just weapons that are more powerful), which IMO is the real reason it has to remain secret. Because they know the general populace would object. but those who do object would be "silenced" and at the receiving end of the weapons of the UN.

Heck I would be right there fighting alongside the anti-un if I didn't have any idea there was going to be giants coming to earth with the possible intention of invading. The need by the UN to create cover stories to not panic people would bite supporters of the UN in the bum in the end, because without knowing exactly what is going on, they are just being used as a sacrificial lamb. I bet it wasn't until after SW1 (when those responsible for all the civilian deaths could be rounded up) and the formation of the new UNG that people (whos own money was used to fund the projects) could start to enjoy the benefits of the technology.

The human race like the protoculture NEEDS to spread itself apart as far as it can to make sure the human race is not wiped out like the protoculture when creating weapons that backfire. (the mistake their civilisation made was to not spread apart enough, so I guess one wise person secretly helped seed earth based on foresite; possibly one step into helping fullful a zentreadi religious prophecy, the same one exedor mentions to britai)

That is because it is a human's nature to fight and compete and kill each other like the zentreadi; (it's true, we DO intnetionally kill our own people like bodolza) of which Exedor and Global are the only ones who are well aware of from history. Anti-UN is just the natural opposition to unite under single rule, so that things like the holocaust (world death all around from alien attack) at least have a limit in terms of the damage it can do to the human race. I guess the protoculture (according to macross compendium) could never agree 100% either, so they kept splitting and re-uniting based on the disputes they had over control of things just like us.

Edited September 21, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Final Vegeta]

Of curse it do not have the curent politcal situation.... the ww3 thing nerver hapend in the real world 

Even in a fictional world it would be more realistic if Russia sided with China and other asian states.

That said, obviously Macross, as every anime, forgets a war is always fought to gain something, especially resources, but I can live with that.

Wher com the nazis in?? the sub have a german city name.....???

SV-51's active stealth came from Germany.

FV

[Agent ONE]

The worst death is when Macross died with the creation of the M7 poochscrew.

[rehnvall]

SV-51's active stealth came from Germany.

FV

And what do them to nazis?

We do not no what UN or anti-UN fraktion demand. We do not no the history of the conflik so it hard to speculated why som contry are pro UN or anti-UN.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

We do not no what UN or anti-UN fraktion demand. We do not no the history of the conflik so it hard to speculated why som contry are pro UN or anti-UN.

The UN will destroy any independance current nations have so they can control everything. Already that's a good enough reason for thier to be some sort of Anti-UN force to try to challenge the UN. (whether you believe 1 side is good or bad is pretty irrelevant now that you think about it) The have-not nations will be easy to promote the idea of a world goverment to, because they will be getting a good slice of the pie, whereas those who are doing well and prospering and independant of the need for a UN might not be so agreeable with.

Personally I think in the real world it was always going to be inevitable that religious people would be the most to object to a one-world goverment. (the UN believe our world is overpopulated for crying out loud, and eugenics is something any person with a conscience should be against, or anyone who are haters of hitler, no matter how much they dress it up in politically-correct terms like "sustainability" and "population control". To religious people the idea is satanic. And there are other reasons why the UN, mainly siding with new age hippies on many issues, would pose a threat to the current powers) It's only the rich and powerful globalists with an agenda who are the ones to really fear, since they have the most to gain with the creation of a goverment that has them in power.

Here's a good timely link as to why nobody can trust the UN (they will try make the existing super power look bad) as it would pretty much take whatever control the masses have over thier own lives, and hand it over to the few. Because the few are knowledgable about the aliens and the tech, and the people are kept in the dark, there is a strong chance that all that tech is being kept for the benefit of a few who will increase thier control over the popoulation and demand total obedience since they have control over all these new, more-advanced weapons.

You can't trust a single goverment to be ethical in the use of weapons which is why the human race is as much a danger to itself as the alien enemies are to us. This again is reffering to Global's remarks to Misa about why we must not repeat the same mistakes as the protoculture who killed themselves by developing weapons out of fear for thier own opposing side in thier own goverment, to try to secretly control the opposing side, but having those weapons backfire on themselves- killing everything: the good and bad people. (The zentreadi themselves and the supervision army were originally developed as bioweapons remember? and you don't create weapons unless you are going to use them against something, right? Fear creates mistrust which leads to war, so the protoculture split-reunite, split-reunite,split-reunite etc etc over and over again until only good people control the goverment, but in thier case the weapons were so powerful they couldn't regain control and they became extinct, much like how religious prophecies foretell of an eventual extinction of theh human race in the form of an evil beast which devours everything)

Global's whole reason for wanting us to spread apart (last episode of macross tv series) is so that when earth goverment becomes militarised, (due to the inevitable threat of new zentreadi attacks on earth) we won't get out of control and kill ourselves with our own weapons. He had amazing foresite because when sending misa to be captain to go and find other planets, he knew there was an increased chance the human race survived if some of us were in danger when and if the world went through another war and almost kill itself.(or from being killed by new rebel zentreadi like Kamjin) Global probably knew what the effects of the military industrial complex had on civilisation and was against the idea of too much of the power being misplaced and put into the wrong hands (like admiral hayase) who are too single minded to reason with. (of course Global had no choice but to follow orders back then when hayase and all were still alive )

It doesn't even really matter why we kill ourselves or go to war against ourself, but rather the fact that when we do, and have such enormously powerful weapons to do it with (like nukes, and energy beams that vaporise whole continents) we risk making the human race an extinct species, so we must spread out and limit the damage we do to future generations.

This is much cooler and more realistic reason then just saying that man is more peaceful than his alien brothers and only wants to bring peace to the galaxy. Because in real life we kill ourselves. (the same reason why in lord of the rings the good guys have evil potential within them in the form of temptation/seduction and perversion of ideals rather than because they were born evil like the orcs) The reason why we need to spread is to ensure that we have someone around to carry on the race unless we accidently destroy ourselves like protoculture. But the fact that destruction is inevitable if we are left alone for too long, is the more important point that Global was trying to make.

Even peaceful civilisations like the one in macross 0 were forced to be drawn into the war after the UN had so many losses to the anti-un and needed help. If we didn't spread out, God knows how many people would be left on earth to keep the race alive when there are people with such powerful weapons on earth to enforce thier control over civilisation. (as senseless as war is, their is method in the madness to those people who are actually benefiting from the chaos - ie war is profitable and like starcraft there will always be a rush to claim ownership valuable resources and massive profit to be made from the industry that arises from the manufacture of arms that are sold to those killing each other)

All of this is just common sense, technology brings war which is what Mao can't stand about the UN's need to bring it to her primitive-but-peaceful people, even if she is being a little bit extreme, overprotective and superstititous. The price you pay for convenience in the short term, is the blood of innocent people in the long term. (it's quite fitting for Maya to associate "taking a blood sample" as to vampiric bloosucking by the whites who are stealing their soul) To people who have stayed hidden from advanced civilisation, maybe it's much better to leave the peaceful people alone on thier island after all? When people like that old Doctor come along to research more into the aliens you just *know* they have military applications of that tech in mind. (as opposed to good uses of the tech)

edit: sorry that these replies are so long winded, it's just the way I like to post on forums where I chuck in as much of an idea in a single post as possible. All of this is speculation based on what I think the series should be about but I try to back up my points.

Edited September 23, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[whytwolf]

Just finished watching DYRL, and man, if you want to talk about pathetic deaths, Kakizaki died like a total bitch in the movie--his death in SDF Macross was less bitchish--mostly cause he was at least trying to get away....

Poor Kakizaki.

On a seperate note, man is Roy a pig! What a guy, wish he was my sempai

Sean

[Final Vegeta]

And what do them to nazis?

We do not no what UN or anti-UN fraktion demand. We do not no the history of the conflik so it hard to speculated why som contry are pro UN or anti-UN.

It' doesn't matter, just that in Japanese imagery Nazis became the enemy after WWII. Mazinger's Dr. Hell was German, and one of his men was an ex SS officer, and this is just an istance.

This don't have any relation with current real world history, Kawamori just perceive that one of the biggest rouge was German, and the other Russia and Israel.

Anime don't have a sense in themselves, but a sense that follows the logic of their author.

FV

[Noriko Takaya]

That Zentran grunt getting his head crushed by Milia is possibly one of the most f**ked up things I have seen in Macross. First getting shot to pieces by cannon fire then having your enemy step on your head to make it really final is just plain overkill. But it is great nonetheless.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Haha, I love all that violence and the detail it was animated at. The movie is not for little kids.

It makes miriya seem twice as badass and scary. It just seems to me the zentreadi are treated more like monsters in a horror movie more than they are in the tv series where they are more cerebral and civilised, holding back thier forces because the "ship is too precious" and them not bothering to take earth hostage. They are more warrior-like in the series (sometimes questioning thier superiors and thier code of ethics) and less mindless to me. (with the exception of Kamjin)

After all, these are supposed to be cold-blooded killing machines whose only purpose is to kill, kill, kill. If she came off as a pussy (oops she is one!) in her opening into the movie, it wouldn't have the same impact on the audience. (assuming nobody has seen the tv series)

I don't consider violence like that gratuitious if it served a purpose. If there is a war, you would expect blood and guts and peoples limbs and heads to be cut off. I think it would only add to the dark gritty feel and realism. (action movies from the 70s and 80s are some of them most violent imo, just watch robocop 1 for violence mixed with humour)

Yes it would be unecessary to the furthering of the story but not when manipulating the emotions which is the aim of putting that extra stuff in there. It might be funny to some, (some deaths just are) but it has its place when used in the right way to show the effect weapons have on the victims. (seeing some of "saving private ryan"s gory images imo was pretty disturbing but it got its point across better this way by showing the more horrific 'meat grinding' side to war, rather than: dude gets shot, falls over, goes to sleep.)

In the movie, you can sense immediately that miriya hates the soldiers for being weak and not challenging enough to be worthy opponents for them to be given the privledge to fight against her. In the tv series it takes time for that idea to come across becasue she doesn't kick that much ass. But in the movie that is achieved with just a few actions and her attitude. It wasn't just her doing her duty and stroking her ego like in the tv version. She actually despised the weakness in the opponents and needed to demonstrate that ruthlessness to shock the audience and make us scared of her in a short space of time to give the hardened image. But the impression I got in the tv series, was that she was much less a threat, and as a warrior, needed to prove she was stronger. (and she never got that chance to show it, thanks to max taking the spotlight away)

Edited October 11, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Noriko Takaya]

Haha, I love all that violence and the detail it was animated at. The movie is not for little kids.

It makes miriya seem twice as badass and scary. It just seems to me the zentreadi are treated more like monsters in a horror movie more than they are in the tv series where they are more cerebral and civilised, holding back thier forces because the "ship is too precious" and them not bothering to take earth hostage. They are more warrior-like in the series (sometimes questioning thier superiors and thier code of ethics) and less mindless to me. (with the exception of Kamjin)

After all, these are supposed to be cold-blooded killing machines whose only purpose is to kill, kill, kill. If she came off as a pussy (oops she is one!) in her opening into the movie, it wouldn't have the same impact on the audience. (assuming nobody has seen the tv series)

I don't consider violence like that gratuitious if it served a purpose. If there is a war, you would expect blood and guts and peoples limbs and heads to be cut off. I think it would only add to the dark gritty feel and realism. (action movies from the 70s and 80s are some of them most violent imo, just watch robocop 1 for violence mixed with humour)

Yes it would be unecessary to the furthering of the story but not when manipulating the emotions which is the aim of putting that extra stuff in there. It might be funny to some, (some deaths just are) but it has its place when used in the right way to show the effect weapons have on the victims. (seeing some of "saving private ryan"s gory images imo was pretty disturbing but it got its point across better this way by showing the more horrific 'meat grinding' side to war, rather than: dude gets shot, falls over, goes to sleep.)

In the movie, you can sense immediately that miriya hates the soldiers for being weak and not challenging enough to be worthy opponents for them to be given the privledge to fight against her. In the tv series it takes time for that idea to come across becasue she doesn't kick that much ass. But in the movie that is achieved with just a few actions and her attitude. It wasn't just her doing her duty and stroking her ego like in the tv version. She actually despised the weakness in the opponents and needed to demonstrate that ruthlessness to shock the audience and make us scared of her in a short space of time to give the hardened image. But the impression I got in the tv series, was that she was much less a threat, and as a warrior, needed to prove she was stronger. (and she never got that chance to show it, thanks to max taking the spotlight away)

Sorry to sound anal, but you need to get the name right. It's Milia, not Miriya. There was no Miriya in DYRL. Or Macross, for that matter.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Sorry to sound anal, but you need to get the name right. It's Milia, not Miriya. There was no Miriya in DYRL. Or Macross, for that matter.

YEAH! Get it right!

[yellowlightman]

Sorry to sound anal, but you need to get the name right. It's Milia, not Miriya. There was no Miriya in DYRL. Or Macross, for that matter.

YEAH! Get it right!

You know if you pronounce "Miriya" like a Japanese person would, it sounds exactly like "Milia."

[Jemstone]

Sorry to sound anal, but you need to get the name right. It's Milia, not Miriya. There was no Miriya in DYRL. Or Macross, for that matter.

YEAH! Get it right!

You know if you pronounce "Miriya" like a Japanese person would, it sounds exactly like "Milia."

But the official spelling is the official spelling......

[EXO]

It's Miria to Bandai and Yamato...

[Agent ONE]

I no longer think 1/1 lurker is Edo... Edo wouldn't have made so many mistakes.

[Dat Pinche Haro!]

ahh engrish...don't we all just love it