Ork_dreadnought

Erm, no, you missed the point entirely. Max was added to the supporting cast as part of an attempt to show there was more to events then what happened to Hikaru. He is only perfect in that he was better pilot than Hikaru, there's no indication he was better at anything else (see his difficulties with Milia). He was also something of a joke character, he ambushed a zentradi in a toilet and his whole relationship with Milia was hilarious. While you could say Max was suspicously fortunate, and even two-dimensional if you were mean, he isn't the sole point of the show and doesn't get that much screentime. The situation for Basara is VERY different, he had far more screentime as he was the focus of the show. He is played completed strait and is without flaw in basically everything he does. That's why I consider him plot sheilded, and is also why he effectively has no character development. The fact that Max has minimal development is due to the fact he isn't the lead character, and is absent from a large number of episodes. Even then, the fact he got married puts him above Basara.

Max wasn't the lead character though, so he gains partial exception (though he is the Jammiest man in mecha).

I've gotta say, you aren't really pulling in any converts with that line of arguement. Simply saying that he was trained by a good pilot, doesn't really explain how he is an exceptional one. Sure, I'd imagine he got good training, but this is a orphan that spent his formative years up in mountains. The last anime character that had such upbringing had difficultly with anything technical (and turned into a giant ape every full moon). Basara breaks one of the key genre conventions of Mecha shows, which isthat any character should not be excellent from episode 1, there should be a learning curve. If a character has god mode on from episode 1, its very difficult to empathise with him, or be impressed by his feats in battle. Look at the Gundam SEED contraversy, sure it was popular, but half the fanbase was ripping it to shreads because the characters were so plot sheilded. If Basara had, for example, had a near miss in his first flight, we might have found his talent easier to stomach. Instead he just flies in, shoots a few speaker pods and sings. Nobody gets a bullet anywhere near him. This does not change. VFTF1, either you need to try a different line of arguement, or you need to accept that Basara has plot armour so thick you could plate the hull of the Macross with it.

I'm not trying to spoil things, you understand, but isn't this thread in the wrong place?

Qouted for truth, that's a vary a consise description of the M7 situation. Just extend that to Basara as an individual, and you've got the reason why so many have issue with him.

I'm going to have to say again that pacifists aren't automatically good people. Or, as Gubaba, he's very bad at his philosphy. However, that's a very interesting way to look at Basara. I'm not entirely sure that its entirely correct (but then, neither is my basara = M7 Minmay statment). The main difference would be in my eyes that Basara does not have, how to describe it, a power curve? Basara is an awesome pilot from episode 1, and goes on to be come the savior of the fleet. Hikaru has to learn, and even then he ins't the best. He isn't the savior of the Macross, that honor, if it can be applied to a single person, goes to Minmay. So I would continue to say Basara owes more to Minmay than Hikaru, if only for the simple reason he sings.

Well, I think you've got him in a nutshell there. He can do the obvious, practical stuff, but stops short of actually acheiving the right mindset.

So, your basic arguement is Kaifun isn't pacifist because he isn't a nice person? Seems to me Kaifun fullfilled all practical requirements for being a pacifist, except he was verbal/fundamentalist about it.

War is an act of violence (many, many actually), so your answer doesn't fly. Calling something a war where people don't die is just a metaphor.

Point well made, Radd, I understand where your're coming from now. As far as I'm concern pacifism is a politcal position, which is what I meant by having the same politics, so I apologise for not making that clear. Someone who hates the military isn't pacifist? Please explain how that works. (Pacifist = anti-war, military = war, hating military = anti war, kaifun hates military so Kaifun = pacifist) Dude, he joined the damn peace movement! That's where he'd been prior to episode 15. In episode 16 a big show is made of how he uses only defensive Kung Fu moves.

As you yourself point out, they form the same function in both shows, and I'll say this again, both provoke (largely unwarrented) dislike from the fanbase due to having a odd or atypical approach to war. If you want to keep on instisting to connection is superficial, fine, your opinion and all. I don't claim that this is all there is to the character. You are are however ignoring the best description of Basara you can get in a single sentance, that he is M7's Minmay with a touch of Kaifun about him.

Basara has been critised many times on this board for his refusal to listen to reason and a less than one-to-one relationship with reality. It sounds a like Minmay, but not exactly (see my comment about archetypes). Basara is a pacifist and so is Kaifun. Basara and Kaifun are also surprising good at defending themsleves for people so against fighting. Minmay and Basara are both hugely popular musicians explited by the military as physological weapons. All three of these characters are disliked by large chunks of the fanbase. As Basara postdates the other two, it fair to say his character was influenced by them. I shouldn't have to defend this reasoning, the similarity cannot be ignored, or dismissed as superficial. It would be like saying, to use a non-macross example, Kira Yamato is not a homage/copy of Amuro Rei, only modified for a new audience.

Except, that he is also a pacifist that people widely dislike. That was sorta my original point about Basara. He was a muscian with comparable emoutional maturity to Minmay, but unlike Minmay he had strong political views, hence Kaifun. Another similarity between Kaifun and Basara is that they are both surprisingly (unbelievably?) good at good at defensive combat, Kaifun being a talented martial artist, Basara having some piloting skills that put him on par with the best of the fleet. For a while I've been toying with the theory that the three lead characters in M7 are the same archetypes as the original, just shifted around. So Gamlin = Misa, Basara = Minmay and Hikaru = Mylene. Perhaps this is why M7 gets picked on so much. Would Macross have been as popular if Minmay was the lead? Its something interesting to chew on.

I don't think that's entirely fair, being anti-military was a valid viewpoint before and after SW1, and he did spend two years putting up with Minmay . Basara is in his own way, just as pigheaded, but he doesn't (as far as I'm aware) have an excuse for it.

At the risk of offending people, I'd say there's basically nothing wrong with basara, if only he'd been a supporting character rather than the lead. He's difficult to empathise with, often two-dimensional and has extremely obvious plot armour. The idea of a musicain going into combat to stop the fighting is both a brave and satirical move, and would have been brilliant as comic relief. As it stands, Basara just seems like a male version of Minmay, but with Kaifun's politics, who we are meant to acknowledge as a hero, a concept that I have difficulty with.

Thirded. Its probably the best mecha anime made in the last decade (though frontier may change that).

Opening your heart is one thing, turning off your brain is another. A lot of the series comes accross as a parody or simplifacation of the original series themes, to those people who got into Macross for the militaristic side. None of that makes it a bad anime, but appeals to emoution like that do little to gain converts for the series. In fact, statments like that just make the violent split between macross fans worse.

Yes, I was a 40k fan back in the day, briscojr84, I may take you up on that offer if my gaming group is interested. I'm looking at that pdf now, Focker, much apprecieated. Penquin, you've addressed the majority of my concerns about the rules set, thanks. Getting lots of tips here, thanks everyone.

Thanks for the tips gentlemen. I had been leaning towards the d20 system as I have the d20 mecha compendium (by dreampod 9), but I don't have much experience with it's rules. Its got a Robotech inspired section in it, but I'd have to design all the mecha from scratch. Focker-san, how does mekton actually play? I'd rather not learn another rules sytem, but if it can handle macross well I would look into it.

Hi guys, please excuse me if this is wrong area for this, but I think this is more a games issue than a fanworks topics. Like a lot people in our hobby, I've played D&D, and I've been toying with an running a mecha themed game. Running a Macross themed one has a great deal of posibilites, due to whole city in space theme. Has anyone done anything similar, and would be willing to give me some tips? Thanks, and I apologise for the obviously self-serving topic.

Hmm, M7 hatred again. Going back a few posts, I have this image of Mylene & Basara appearing in Frontier having aged into a Sharon and Ozzy Osborne type couple. That would be a good way to bring aspects of 7 into the anime.

Ah, that's why I'm a newbie, I didn't check the thread before posting. Thanks

Hi guys, first time posting in a while. Hopefully I'm not reposting old news, or in the wrong place. I recently became aware of this Macross boxset. I'm tempted to write it off as bootleg, but then its austrialian and it does link to the robotech website. Has anyone brought this?

Lots of dread in the room. Following on in the fashion of Macross 7 is not nessecarily a bad thing, but I do hope the lead character isn't as devisive as Basara.

I'd like to know, too. I got a perfect memory book at my last covention.