Keith

Direct quote reply's help keep everything in perspective. By that reasoning any level of peace talk or discussion that's attempting to turn an enemy into an ally is psychological warfare. You're being far too wide open with your interpretation. Psychological warfare by its nature requires the intent to attack another by such means. Except that its role hasn't changed all that much at all. It still maintains the same position it always has, though its prominence has grown somewhat. The Macross sequels (& prequel) have done what all good sequels & prequels should do. Maintain what came before, while expanding upon it. I'm intent on proving it, because that's the way it is. There are no fundimental concepts in Plus, 7, or Zero, that aren't extensions of what was already present in the original series. There are the story seeds for it, and that is enough. The mistake is yours, not mine. Macross was an anti-militaristic series. And someone who is turned off by a drumkit in a fighter needs to lighten up. Hell, even current military hardware allows for the broadcast of music to amp up the soldiers (see George W's operatioin nuke the Iraqis for Oil). That's a lot of supposition to imply that you represent the hardcore Macross fanbase. Besides which, Kawamori never said he wasn't making much of an attempt to make the series "mesh." What he specifically said was that he wasn't going to be anal about Zero's end & SDF TV's beginning. What we can construe that to mean now that the series is finished, is that there won't be a direct tye in (i.e. showing the Macross, or showing how Roy went from Mayan to South Atalia). Hardcore Macross fans aren't in it for the military hardware & battles, because Hardcore Macross fans know that those were never the centerpieces to the story to begin with. Who are you to say what was & wasn't intended by the creaters? Considering the very same creaters "did" lead things into the direction they have gone, have never alluded to any other series of events occuring, and have yet to truly contradict anything which has come before, It's pretty safe to assume that things are going as they were intended to. Unless of course you have some top secret Nue story outline for the original 50+ episode run of the series, but then that would be the burden of your proof. You act like everything is Macross II, which isn't the case. The problem would seem to be that you have a misconception of what Macross is to begin with. If you want a dry military series, look elsewhere. So if I want to be open minded, I must be close minded? Go back & watch the series again. It's not about big flashy explosions, death & destruction, trying to defeat the enemy, or any of that nonsense. While those are components to the story, the central core has always been, and continues to be, the power of peoples emotions to reach out to others & move their hearts through music. Macross has succeeded in maintaining that theme, as well as a well fighting story canon. The mechanism was "Sara." Whether she realized she had the ability or not, her power extended to the point of being able to levitate objects. Her emotions. The music isn't being used to tell the story, it's just a thematic component of it. And while liking the muisc does help, not liking it doesn't detract away from the story being told. Hell, with a diversity of musical styles in general, there are always bound to be some styles that some don't like. Here's my question, do you not believe that an alternate control scheme as shown in 7 is not physically capable of existing? Its dynamic is clearly shown to be similar to standard, just with a different visual presentation. It's not like the U.N. Spacy junked everything & replaced it with the Kai designs. That's my entire point. The Kai Valkyries weren't intended to be normal, they weren't military use Valkyries, and they weren't used for fighting. The precident set is what the Zentradi have been shown to have, and what the EVIL have been shown to be (i.e. a far more advanced level of Protoculture technology. The AFOS is a perfect represntation of that more advanced level shown in 7. Macross 7 also maintains it. The colony fleet, & all protective craft of that colony (save for the Kai Valkyries) use the same mlitaristic look of past Macross series. It's not like everything was suddenly made out of bubblegum or something. Besides which, the nature of a (good) sequel is to grow & expand upon what came before. With over 30 years of technological advancement between the two shows, there are naturally going to be some new aspects. Whether you like them or not is moot, as long as you accept them as part of the story. I just don't see the dramatic differences you guys are claiming between SDF TV & 7. I can easily see the direct connections & progressions between them. Choice perhaps? Considering that humans are the inheriters to the Protoculture, was the technology truly that alien? Nor is it strange that humans would slowly move along the same routes of progression as the Protoculture? Does it not being your style of music prevent you from enjoying the story? I don't know, I find being blown up by the AFOS far more annoying (from a character in the story aspect) than a request to listen to a song. If everything was there in SDF M TV, then it would have been a significantly longer series, without need for a sequel. The nature again of sequels to grow & expand upon what came before. If you want to see nothing except for repeating storylines, I suggest you watch Gundam (mind you I like Gundam, but it is literally a continuing cycle of the same basic story setup). They're superficial in that they're only surface elements, i.e. not liking someone because they're black or asian, instead of listening to what they have to say. If a story is good, doesn't matter how it's told. Take the Bakshi LOTR interpretation for instance. Terribly told version of the story, which would have been much more acceptable had it been told more accurately despite the lower grade of animation. Nah, Lucas would never even hint to the slaughtering of children, he doesn't have the nuts anymore. That's too bad. But here's another question. Despite your dislike of the asthetic aspects of the show, how did you feel about the depth put into the history of the Protoculture conflict? How do you feel about the core aspect of Macross being people sharing their emotions with one another through music? You can't do that without playing muisc afterall. No, more like not putting all of your eggs in one basket. In addition to having a defending force, also having a peace negotiation gruop. Aside from Myung's ability to reach Isamu's heart with her song when there's no way he would be able to audibly hear her? Or Guld's ability to control the YF-21 with his mind? A computer which can think for itself & feel emotions? None of that seems superhuman to you? -------------------- Thinking isn't a supernatural power, but thinking & controlling many aspects of an advanced variable fighter with a device that connects mind & machine most certainly is. As is Myung's showing of spiritia signs, and Sharon's ability to live despite being a machine (i.e. for a machien to have a soul) supernatutal. -------------------- While Plus wasn't concieved as a Macross series, the only real aspects of it that we know were specifically a part of the AVF story was the competition between test pilots. The rest howver could very easily be Macross specific. Why wouldn't he, he's even responding to you.

I just don't think you're going to find an 08th MS team style story in Macross.

The mechanism was "Sara." Whether she realized she had the ability or not, her power extended to the point of being able to levitate objects. Basara isn't doing anything different than any military pilot in that sense, and hell, he even has the curtiousy to announce that he's going to be singing. "Listen to my song" is a far better proposition than "pop, you're dead." Liking the music is another matter entirely though, and all things considered, it isn't about whether you like the songs or not, just that his audience feels the passion he puts into it. See above. With the addition that every Macross series has had a different musical style. The musical style used for each show however doesn't have anything to do with the story being told. That wasn't a guy, that was Veffidas. All things considered, she had nothing to do with piloting the VF-17 Kai, she just liked to drum. Fundimentally though, using a guitar for a control stick is no funnier than using a stick for a control stick, it just so happens that one is an accepted norm, and the other is not. If in our culture we used pinapple shaped control mechanisms, that would make using sticks appear funny as well. Think outisde the box. What I'm gathering from most of your arguments, is that you're just not open to anything more than straight mlitary hardware. Problem is, Macross has never been about that. QUOTE (Keith @ Dec 4 2004, 01:43 AM) Now that is just silly, the Pink Pecker team was awesome. Hell, anyone who can rank up as an elite team while flying pink VF-11's is alright with me. Besides which, they weren't even a prominent group, literally only shown for seconds in "1" flashback. Ah, like 3 alien spies eargly anticipating steaing a singing dancing doll? Like hacking into the system of a computer generated performance to get a little personal attention? Macross has always had more than its share of parody, 7 no more or less than the original series. Zero was also a far more condensed story, without room for more parody (although the villagers were the main source). I just think you're judging 7 unfairly in the face of its position in the larger picture. No, but there is the AFOS, with its song based controls. Out of curiosity, whats your position on Macross TV's J-pop songs. But there is a constant demanding that the military get their war & technology away from Maya, as well as constant warnings of bad Kadun. If they had the technology in that Macross era.... All very superciial reasons, which have little to do with the story being told in either. QUOTE (Keith @ Dec 4 2004, 01:43 AM) And even then, if it were a simple matter of dislike, that would be one thing, but when you go to the lengths of making fun of 7 despite all the similarities with Zero, that's where it gets confusing. And I accept that others do not, but in any circumstance where there is a discussion with conflicting opinion, don't expect those with the opinion opposite of yours not to respond in kind. There's nothing personasl in a debate, as everyone should know the difference between themselves & their opinions. Like "hey, why didn't any of those Jedi trainee kids rise up & take on Vader." I don`t guys but M0 should have been based on Macross ship study or research and the VF-1X development, believe me I wouldn`t mind if M0 was based on that memory episode from the TV series and even if it didn`t had transforming VF`s . -------------------- An interesting theory, but then Kawamori didn't direct the original series either. It could be said that those very same people don't like Kawamori's directing at all... I'd take a nod against the directing style not so much to be the aspects being addressed in this dicussion, but more directly the story layout & execution in regards to sceme cuts & acting choices. I don't think directing is the issue at all, especially when the aspects in question are aspects approved by Kawamori & Nue in all series. I honestly think it has more to do with people expecting to see the same thing each time in general. It's my opinion that Kawamori & Nue have the very rare ability to maintain a tight story canon & continuity, while bringing a fresh new outlook to each series on every outting. Those expecting to see the same style setting each time are naturally going to be dissapointed when the story is continued in a new setting. Those who go in just for the story (I think) will be more welcoming of the changed setting each series takes place in. -------------------- That to me says that you find it ok for these things to occur on a tribal island, but not on a colony fleet in space... In that way, those people are bound to be always dissapointed to a degree, as I don't expect Kawamori & Nue to present things as they were presented in the original TV series in exactly that way again. Just as I don't expect they'll present them as they were in 7 exactly that way again. That's part of the beauty of the franchise. Actually, it wasn't a psychological distraction at all. While there's no denying that her singing "was" used in that way during the fight with Bodolza, the fact of the matter is that her singing during that battle wasn't what won the battle. Minmay's effect was made much sooner. When the combination of the emotions in her singing, as well as experiencing life inside the ship was spread to Warera, Loli, & Konda, they took that back with them & shared it with their shipmates, who shared it with others, who so on & so forth. This spread all the way through the Britai Adoclas fleet, forcing Britai to either submit his fleet for termination to Bodolza, or ride the new wave of "culture" spreading, & fight alongside the Macross. Minmay changed the tide of the war not with psychological warfare, but by sharing her emotions with others, who continued to do so. That's the theme many seem to miss. If not for that aspect, everyone on the Macross would have died with those on Earth, and the story would have ended there. I blame Robotech in a large part for the misconception, as that was one of its major failings. You're forgetting the also present theme of "even if you must fight, still strive for a way to prevent fighting." You'll recall Milia's insistence that Max not kill the Zentradi pilots, and once seeing this, Hikaru followed suit. That didn't strike you as moving that an ace pilot would curb his killing skill to more gently subdue his enemy? Besides which, all that you mentioned above, and what I just mentioned here, are still present themes in 7. Basara doesn't stop anyone from protecting people with their military hardware, he just tries to end the necessity to fight in general. Music is never used as a weapon in Macross, save for Sharon Apple. in SDF music was used to SUPPORT the main fighting force and give them an edge. Again, 7 & Zero do nothing different in this regard than the original series did. While I agree that it wasn't as pronunced in the original series, these very same aspects were there. The nice thing about the original series being, that it left itself wide open for these things to be fleshed out more in depth (as they eventually were). What 7 showed was what had been strived at in every Macross series before it, a fully functional way for Music to prevent war. The differences you see are misconcieved. Humanity never fell off into the background. That's like saying humanity fell off into the background in the face of Hikaru Or Isamu's existence. Naturally there will always be central characters. -------------------- I dissagree. I don't feel Macross was every a "military" show, it's always been a love story. I believe someone already commented on the special abilities of central characters, and how its been a large theme in fiction in general (anime being no different) since the beginning of storytelling. Greek Mythology to Tall Tales, special powers just make for interesting stories. Besides, Ace pilots would fall into that catagory as well. Except that regular people are still what make all the difference. Regular people like Shin can change the tide of destruction. Regular people like Gamlin saw past their prejudices & helped Basara in his cause. Regular people like the 7 fleet's citizens can motivate Basara to go on, regular people like Isamu can motivate Myung to step outside the restraints she put upon herself. Regular people are never just backdrop in Macross. -------------------- Basara recognized the need for people like Gamlin, just like Gamlin recognized the need for people like Basara. An important part of that dynamic was the fighting & peace making groups realized how important one was to the other. They stopped trying to out do one another, and combined their efforts, and that's the ful some of both of their effects against the Protodevelin. An important dynamic to 7 was that purely fighting against something, irregardless of the good intentions, will not always insure victory. If an enemy is too strong, then all fighting will result in is going down in flames. Somethimes other means have to be tried, and that's why Basara was necessary. Without Max, Basara wouldn't have had the chance to go out into space, into the middle of the conflict, and hone his ability. Without Max, the hardware developement wouldn't have been funded to amplify Basara's natural abilities. Without Max, the decision would have likely been made to continue trying to assualt with Reaction Weapons, resulting in no effect on the Protodevelin, and the fall of the 7 fleet. "All he did was convince her to stop." That doesn't seem pivitoly important to you? Roy game Shin the motivation to follow his feelings. No, you're just being cynical. Yes, and no. Minmays effect in DYRL was her exact same effect in the TV series. She reached out with her emotions to others, and swayed them to realize there were better alternatives to fighting. As was in 7, as was in Plus, as was in Zero. And yet, you couldn't be more wrong. Plus still retains all of these aspects, and flips them in the complete oppiste direction to boot. Not only are the abilities of one persons emotions to sway others addressed, but the main opposition is artificially attempting to do these things (i.e. Sharon Apple).

You still have a good 14 episodes to go in ZZ before you'll see Tomino's influence.

That sort of formula wouldn't fit well with Macross (see Macross II), re-doing one would require re-doing all, and that's just not necessary with the nature of how the story has been presented. In this case, it would make more sense to just re-animate with the existing story & audio tracks.

I know those space gandam v pic's would come back to haunt me

Perhaps you just weren't clear enough in what you said. The implication I got was that you percieved the AFOS to be nothing more than a machine left over from the Protoculture, as opposed to the actual living thing that it is. The AFOS was doing nothing. The energy Sara generated while singing was what affected her surroundings. Her blood is what gave her the connection with the AFOS, her energy is what let her tap into that connection. QUOTE (Keith @ Dec 3 2004, 02:05 AM) It was no different than the phenomenon Fire Bomber generates in Macross 7. Praising one, while damning the other, is just idiotic. My problem with this argument being, those very same "fantastic elements" are used in 7 as well, in the very same contexts. Basara doesn't cram anything down anyones throat, nor does he force any ideology on anyone. He doesn't force Gamlin or any of the other U.N. pilots to follow suit with him, he just doesn't back down to them trying to force him to change what he's doing. Hell, he even acknowledges their purpose & the need for them to fight, but at the same time he works towards taking everyone out of that situation where there's a need to fight. And when it comes down to it, why is forcing a bullet into someone more unacceptable to you, then trying to sway their emotions through song? Actually, he sings two albums worth of songs over & over again. All things considered, Macross 7 problably has one of the highest counts of vocal songs actively used of any series, save Cowboy Bebop. Had all Valkyries been "controlled" with the alternate setups, I could see your point, but with only "3" being so, it's a superficial argument. Especially when they weren't military use Valkyries. And as many seem to miss, they weren't "played" to fly, in fact it's specifically shown that they couldn't be played & used to fly at the same time. They were merely atlernately formed control setups. Pssst, AFOS. Now that is just silly, the Pink Pecker team was awesome. Hell, anyone who can rank up as an elite team while flying pink VF-11's is alright with me. Besides which, they weren't even a prominent group, literally only shown for seconds in "1" flashback. And it's more likely that you nitpick on one more than the other for entirely superficial reasons, when both have far more in common than not.

For some reason that game gave me a Mighty Orbots flashback...

Actually, it was September, then November, the later November, then a day after that in November, and now December 14th. So far everything seems cool.

Ah, and to answer that question, the order I watched in was: -Robotech ::shutters:: -Macross Plus -DYRL -Macross II -Flash Back 2012 -Macross 7 -Macross (AnimEigo set) proper. -Macross Zero

Agentone, after listening to Basara's song, go listen to an anger management councelor.

You guys are being far too tight-assed about what you consider magic, what you consider science, and what you consider hard sci-fi. Like it or not, giant transforming robots are magic by your various standards. There are no current explanations of how such things can exist in reality, therefor its fantasy. Space ships which can travel large distances through space by folding it are also magic. Nuclear fusion, magic. Huge beam cannons, magic. 1Aliens that can manipulate the genes of other life forms to make them like themselves are again Magic. Giant human like aliens that were created by those other aliens.... None of these things have any current base in reality, you just choose to accept them as such. Kawamori & co have gone to a good depth in explaining why all of the things above, as well as the concepts you choose not to accept, work within their storyline. In Macross, machines have the ability to fire energy beam cannons at one another. And in Macross, life forms have the ability to generate energ that can touch & influence the energy of other life forms. It's not done through magic (as described above as roughly un-explanable spontanous means), but by the natural ability of the body & mind to produce such things. Why is a beam cannon easier for you to accept than a ki blast? Neither has any more basis in reality than the other. We don't have the ability to create either, nor will we likely anytime in the near future. What we do know, machines are cool, and music can change the way people feel. This is the premise that Macross has always worked on. Now as for this nonsense about SDF-TV & Plus tying in more together, and Zero & 7 pairing off in the same way, have you actually watched them for anything other than the Valkyries? Macross Plus & 7 are alike in many ways. More accurately, they're the mirror images of each other. In one series you have events being enacted by machines, and another humans. One shows the harm that can be done with artificial means, and the other shows the good that can be done with "natural means." What you're missing, is that the level of Protoculture technology shown in Zero is so far above that used to create the ASS-1 & Zentradi fleets, that it is no longer mechanical, it's biological. Do you honestly thing the APHOS is a metalic technological creation? It's clearly shown as a living thing. The thing about it that amazed the U.N. scientists was that its organs mimiced the systems of the Macross. This is the same level of technology that was used to create the EVIL bodies which the Protodevelin stole in 7. In turn, Sara's song effected all living thigns around the island. Not just the plants, & rocks, but the animals, bugs, birds, and apparently Shin. It was no different than the phenomenon Fire Bomber generates in Macross 7. Praising one, while damning the other, is just idiotic. Everyone needs to stop being so damned insecure with things they "think" are too fantastic. The whole series from the start was fantastic, as is most fiction.

Again, I can't help but point out the option of oh I don't know....watching a different series if you want to watch something with new situations & characters.... If you want to watch something constantly re-interpreted, we do already have Gundam. And if you guys missed the hard-edgedness of 7, then no new Macross series would do anything for you.

Amongst many other things, Star Wars borrows heavily from Japanese storytelling. If you don't have an adiquate reply, why bother?

You will listen to Basara's song!

I think the problem is that you're judging things by amero-centric story standards. The fact of the matter is, these concepts are far from alien & japanese series, and in fact, run rather rampant. I've pointed out on various occasions where the foundation for them was in the TV series, and when it comes right down to it, if you think giant robots & genetically engineered aliens that are whoo'd by emotions is hard sci-fi, then you've been diluting yourself all these years. Besides which, going back to the Gundam example, the awareness of Newtypes & Newtype abilities didn't take effect until deep into its run. Amuro was touted as just being a luckily skilled pilot until much later when his Newtype abilities were revealed. Considering the nature of that story specifically, as well as Kawamori & Mikimoto's infatuation with it, no one should be surprised with the direction the Macross story has taken.

Wait, what's in the premium package..! And did you ask him about Snatcher? He needs to know we want a Snatcher remake!!!!

Consider the original series just the prelude before everything busts wide-open. Besides which, there's nothing in the original series which prevents such future developements from occuring.

I still don't see what the problem is. If people can accept "the force" in star wars, why not the Spiritia phenomenon in Macross?

Interesting, though I think I like the way things played out in the TV series/movie better.

Yes, all 7 Plus shorts are included in the FX set.

Nope, it's a complete 7 set. The only thing missing (and strangely too) are the "to be continued" last 3 seconds of each Dynamite episode....though the next episode previews are there. Why this was done, I'll never know.

It definately lies somewhere between the TV series & movie, though I prefer to lean more towards the movies. Although, I'm a bit interested in finding out about this Amuro dying thing...did his events with Lala still play out?

Pictures...

I assume you're referring to the Misa cell.......perhaps someone was admiring it and accidentally slipped it back into the stack?