Mr March

The first film might not live up to nostalgia. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan and love both films, but in comparison to the second film, the first is the weaker one. It's still a great anime flick though and you should certainly get a hold of it again.

What are you talking about? I brought up some food for thought for you to consider. I didn't launch into any personal attacks directly on yourself though I may have some ideological differences with you. Sorry that you took it that way. And since this movie is loaded with political commentary, it's sort of hard to avoid the subject matter isn't it? Anway, where's AgentONE been these days? He'd have a load of fun with this topic. 379397[/snapback] So telling me to move to North Korea or China was just the equivalent of flowers? Diving into an anti-Hollywood liberal rant wasn't baggage flung at me but admiration? Telling me "real censorship" doesn't exist in the U.S. was just a way of saying "I love you Mr. March?" Wow, I gotta work on my net lingo Agreed the film is politically charged, but we have to keep it light as per MacrossWorld rules. That was going for the jugular in my opinion.

HAHAHAHAHA

Hear, hear!

I would tend to agree. By and large, one has to often look at science fiction with an accepting eye in order to be absorbed by the story in all its incredulity. Much of the science in science fiction is simply created to suit, with famously silly technologies almost made up on the fly to allow plausible possiblities in the story. Where I'd disagree is the mechanics of Macross mecha. Accepting the silliness of variable mecha, alien fusion engine technology, energy converting armor, and other assorted nonsense is simply part of enjoying Macross and suspending ones disbelief for sake of the story. However, it's clear an effort is made by Kawamori and co. to keep all the other elements of the Valkyries under some degree of control. For example, the weight of Valkyries is comparable to a modern warplane, the VF-1 weighing in at some 13 tons IIRC. Most valkyries also feature believable air speeds, thrust performance, payloads, structural g limits, T-O mass, et cetera. Design wise, most of the Valkyries appear to have sufficient wing surface and aerodynamic construction to fly properly (albiet each with some inherent problems). For me, the design of the VF-2SS is bothersome, but like you say, it's not so bad as to call the thing a brick and let in ruin any enjoyment of Macross II. Personally, I dislike Macross II as a story anyway, so my distaste for the VF-2SS is just another small contributing factor. In something like SDF Macross or Macross Plus, I probably wouldn't have even cared all that much

Hahaha, well I can assure you I'm no fan of Macross 7. While I avoid the Macross 7 bashing of which some here often partake, I dislike the series and especially some of the mecha designs (Yes, even some made by Kawamori himself). However, I do think it's possible that based on Kawamori's favored design esthetics, his grievances with Macross II may have something to do with the Valkyrie designs of the show (aside from the obvious reason of his exclusion from the anime production). I can see your point. Perhaps the VF-2SS is not supposed to be a good atmospheric valkyrie. That's certainly a reasonable interpretation and may explain why the VF-2SS appears less airworthy compared to the other Valkyries. Most of the Kawamori valkyries seem to at least adhere to a greater measure of atmosphere dependance, which may explain why the difference between esthetics is so jarring to my eye. I'd agree that sometimes unorthodox designs do produce airworthy results. But using the real world aircraft you noted as examples, it's good to keep in mind what those designs have in common. While the XB-70, the B-2, and the SR-71 certainly look unusual for aircraft, they are in essence flying wings at a fundamental design perspective. Those three craft are also 2-3 times larger than most valkyries and none of those real world aircraft are designed for combat or manuverability (bomber, reconnaissance, stealth/nuclear bomber respectively), unlike a dedicated fighter craft like the VF-2SS would need to be. The F-22 Raptor is very much a traditional fighter jet, with stealth and modern advancements but looking very much like lineage of the F-15. I prefer the designs of the VF-1, VF-0, SV-51, VF-11, YF-19, and YF-21 most out of all the valkyries. My favoured real world fighter aircraft designs are Northrop/McDonnell-Douglas YF-23 Black Widow, Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor, McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle, Mikoyan MiG-29, Sukhoi Su-30, Sukhoi Su-47, F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (possibly my favorite), and naturally the A.V.Roe CF-105 Arrow (gotta represent!). The other non-fighter aircraft I love are the ockheed SR-71 and the B-2 Spirit.

I have missed nothing. Your posts have continually attempted to divert discussion from my personal criticism of VF-2SS style/aerodynamics into a debate of story and subject matter (going off into topics such as guitar controls and spirita, mysticism and miscellany). The misunderstanding is failing to distinguish between the two. If the VF-2SS is indeed a dedicated, space-only craft, the inclusion of wings and other poor aerodynamic features is either an oversight or an indication this is not a space-only fighter. In either case, the craft still fails to appeal with my personal tastes (being too busy and gaudy) and still hinders my suspension of disbelief within Macross standards (being a poor design aerodynamically). These are the subjects I'm discussing. Lastly, the patronizing attitude isn't helping. If you want me to change my opinion of the VF-2SS, that's the wrong way to go about it.

It even has an entry on the IMDB http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374933/ Must admit, I've never heard about it until now. Might be worth checking out.

Battlefortress Records? Must be some indie label. Never heard of them. Nice...erm...shirts

Yet those same fans wonder why so few take anime seriously.

Since there is obviously a lack of understanding my point, I'll simplify it. Macross is a piece of fiction written and created in such a way that it demands the fictional fighters retain the ability to fly in an atmosphere using aerodynamic lift. With my admittedly amateur knowledge of aeronautics, I'm of the opinion the VF-1, VF-0, SV-51, VF-11, YF-19, and YF-21 look like they can fly via lift, with minimal suspension of disbelief...the VF-2SS does not. Since the Kawamori productions of Macross set the standard for realism vs. fiction in the franchise, I do have a big problem with the failure of the VF-2SS to uphold that standard. Hopefully this post gets through.

Well, he has lived in Northampton all his life ... 379245[/snapback] Hehehe

Please read my criticisms carefully, especially when contrasting Mecha vs. Story. Spirita, mysticism, and any other fantastical story elements Kawamori and co. have created in Macross 7 or Macross Zero have nothing to do with the fictional rules created to govern what mecha can or cannot do in the Macross universe. None of the Macross variable fighter mecha use such fantastic story phenomena as spirita, mysticism, or anything else to power, manuver, or propel the craft AS DESIGNED. They rely on OT fusion engines with set limits and abilities. Until mystic phenomena are built into variable fighters that power their flight, enable them to counter gravity, defy g forces, ignore the need for lift, et cetera, et cetera, my original criticism stands.

*cheers*

Within the limitations of mecha anime and the kind of mecha anime that is made, it's unlikely I'll ever find a mecha anime series more interesting than Macross. To be quite honest, I think most mecha anime is pants, and I mean everything from 70's to the present. The poor quality of the average mecha anime is almost embarrassing. The Oshii directed Patlabor films and Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War In The Pocket are about the only other mecha anime I can stand. Taking into account ALL anime, including non-sci-fi or non-mecha, I enjoy a few anime shows and anime films more than Macross. Cowboy Bebop, Akira, Jin-Roh, Vampire Hunter D, Ghost In The Shell, Nausicaa, and a few others are some great anime I enjoy as much or more than my beloved Macross. For me, anime has always been a difficult medium to enjoy, mostly due to the fact that I despise childrens entertainment, even years ago when I was a child. Since most anime is geared towards children or adolescents, I find it hard to suffer the inherent limitations of such sheltered productions. The anime I really like is the more serious, maturely themed films or series which are sadly in the minority. Sometimes, I'll find a childrens anime production so amazing that I'll embrace it, but this is rare (such cases would be Spirited Away or Princess Mononoke). Japanese live action film has always been easier for me to enjoy, featuring more stories to which I can relate.

Ordinarily you'd be right Seto Kaiba because the conditions in space remove the need for certain design compromises made in earth bound craft (while at the same time creating other complex considerations). Given the technology in MOST science fiction, craft rely on such technologies that make flying bricks practical. However, Macross is much less magical than most science fiction. The mecha of Macross are still bound by many physical laws like gravity and lift, since the Macross universe lacks miniturized, mecha-scale technologies like anti-gravity. In other words, the mecha of Macross still need to fly via aerodynamic lift within atmospheres and are still subject to g forces regardless of environment. Kawamori understands this and has designed most of the Macross fighters within some reasonable limits of believability. IMO, the VF-2SS design fails to account for the established limitations of mecha technology in the Macross universe. Such internal inconsistancy hurts my suspension of disbelief, aside from the fact that I don't care much for the design anyway. Given a different sci-fi franchise with more complimentary technologies, the VF-2SS wouldn't bother my suspension of disbelief.

As much as I admire Alan Moore and his work, he would demand a panel-per-panel film adaptation of V For Vendetta akin to Sin City (even that book was abridged for film). Problem is, the Sin City graphic novel is short, the V For Vendetta graphic novel is lengthy. It would take a 5-6 hour film (or trilogy) to cover most of V For Vendetta. I love V For Vendetta, but I can tell you as a politically charged piece, it definitely doesn't enjoy universal appeal like Star Wars and Lord of The Rings, nor does it benefit from a pre-established film-fan base spawned from the first Matrix film. David Lloyd has confirmed Moore's thoughts and given his own contrary opinion about book-to-film adaptations (he claims the V For Vendetta film has a very good script). Moore has every right to be critical of Hollywood. Several of Moore's books were made into very poor films. But IMO, I think Moore is just too upset and jaded to objectively criticize any further adaptations, unless they were filmed panel-to-shot. Ultimately, I suppose I'll have to see the film first to know for certain whether Moore is right nor not

I'm not crazy about the VF-2SS at all. I think the design is too busy, more what you would find if Macross turned into Gundam, with protrusions and plyons added simply for flash. One of the things I've come to appreciate about Kawamori's Macross fighters is the effort made to keep the basic designs convincing for a series of craft that are still supposed to be air worthy. To me, the VF-2SS diverges from the best Macross into Yukikaze/Gundam conceptions which push mecha design towards a gaudy esthetic that hurts suspension of disbelief. Granted, I really like some of the eclectic Yukikaze designs, but that show is not Macross and I'd easily choose the Macross fighters in a contest. Most likely, my distaste for the VF-2SS design was a contributing factor to my dislike of Macross II.

Don't loose your venom and hatred on me Apollo Leader. I'd appreciate this topic remain open (ie. light on the banned topics like politics).

Or a bad one

omg...

The film is being made by Americans, so I don't find it surprising that the film version suffered some modifications to make it more relevant to American audiences. After all, isn't this why American remakes like Vanilla Sky (a remake of the spanish film "Open Your Eyes") and Scorsese's upcoming The Departed (a remake of the chinese film "Infernal Affairs") are created anyway, if not to make them more relevant to an American audience? Artwork in Alan Moore comics has never been a strong selling point, although V For Vendetta - like his other projects - relies on very visual storytelling, often times going on for pages without a word of text. I personally find it amazing that I'll remember the panels of artwork in Alan Moore books more than some of the work done by my favorite comic artist Jim Lee; a testament to the visual impact and composition of those great panels. Evey's "grin" in V For Vendetta or the now famous "clock" in Watchmen are panels of art that are now etched into my mind Personally, the story of V For Vendetta is very much about the ideals of "V" rather than the character. In the context of the graphic novel, his identity is totally irrelevant. To be sure, his true identity would be a guilty pleasure, but it would also diminish the message of the book. Being new to the graphic novel, I've yet to dwell on a possible scenario and given my interpretation of the book, I'm doubtful I'll consider this particular matter in any depth. I prefer to explore the more interesting aspects of the book. I don't beleive even Moore knows the true identity of V, despite the carrots he has used to string along interviewers/fans to the contrary. He merely states he knows to add more mystery and power to the tale of V For Vendetta, and thus more interest and continued debate. All good writers do this in an attempt to promote the timelessness of their own work and because they are storytellers...even when being interviewed

It can be difficult to know one way or the other since no rules are set in stone. But I think that's the point. The "off topic' forum is run fast and loose, typically monitoring itself. Every now and then though, the staff have to nudge the forum in the right direction.

MacrossWorld has always drawn a fine line for their "general chat" section of the board. Basically, the staff have stated time and again that they don't want the site to turn into a true message forum where you can discuss any manner of stuuf that's not relevant on this site. They'd prefer MacrossWorld to stay more of less genre-based. This usually means anime, science fiction, fantasy, console/PC games, genre film, comic books, and all things geeky. I think the reasoning is to avoid a lot of posting about stuff that isn't even nearly related to MacrossWorld. It is expensive after all. There are some exceptions (like an automotive thread, not sure how that fits, but anyway) but typically that's how it works.

I'm glad to hear the movie isn't as action filled as the trailers lead one to believe, since I just finished reading the action-light graphic novel. As for the politics surrounding the release, there could be no better time than to produce a film like this. Especially in such a pro-censorship environment as the west and britian currently suffer, this film should speak loudly as a sign of the times. Would have been such a strong statement if the House of Lords actually blocked a movie whose subject matter is about oppressive policies. Kudos to them for growing up.