thefeint Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Here is a great look on Macross and War at one of my favorite blogs. It's a long indepth read but worth the time. Hope you all enjoy. http://neojaponisme.com/2008/02/12/macross...world/#more-254 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 WOW! Just wow. That was very good. I thoroughly enjoyed the read. Thank-you for posting this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefeint Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 WOW! Just wow. That was very good. I thoroughly enjoyed the read. Thank-you for posting this. I know, reading that blog gave me a new appreciation of Macross, more than I've ever had before! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 (edited) It's good however the author repeatedly inserts Robotech story elements that are not part of the Macross story. From a Western point of view he makes interesting points, but he does miss the point on some cultural differences between Japan and the West. He points out himself that the show is clearly a Japan based culture, not typically international as before. A few points he missed: - The UN Wars did not end with the crash of the A.S.S., but in fact intensified because of it. They were ongoing before the war as regional conflicts. - The SDF-1 stands for Super Dimension Fortress, refering to the space fold ability of the battleship. - I don't recall (others may correct me) that the city within the Macross had any name. RT named it, but I don't recall such a name in Macross. - "Hotels" are still commonly used in Japan for "adult liasons", while "Motels" are typically used for sleep. Ironically the reverse to here. An interesting Western analysis coupled with some interesting tid bits. Had he gotten a few of his facts correct, it would have been a home run. Pretty good. Edited February 12, 2008 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 From a Western point of view he makes interesting points, but he does miss the point on some cultural differences between Japan and the West. He points out himself that the show is clearly a Japan based culture, not typically international as before. The impression I'm getting from the article is that it's a Westerner, looking at a Japanese show through Western eyes, as if the show was made for a Western audience. I'm not sure if this view is appropriate because SDF Macross never had a Western audience in mind. The majority of Japanese animation is created that way, hence Japanese animation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 (edited) Yeah it seems to want to say that macross champions "consumerism" as the real winner of space war I when really a more accurate statement would be that it was "culture" (art, history, science, education, language, sex etc) and any "activity that humans engage in which is non-destructive", that saved the zentradi. The zentradi would be akin to the robots in blade runner that discovered there was life other than the tasks that they were assigned to live for. Once the replicants discovered all these beautiful things they couldn't have but that humans could have, they turned against their masters who programmed them to only be slaves "for the man". I see this theme as a very common one in all science fiction (both japanese and american): people may benefit from the technology they create, and make these great convenient machines, but what about love, emotion, your sense of self/individualism/identity, your memories etc?... don't all these thing have value in society too? Should humans just be seen as robots programmed to perform a task and not have any say in it? Can a person who is lousy at singing not still want to sing? or a artist who isn't respected still enjoy painting regardless of not making money? There are things we do that are not useful to society or valued in monetary terms that people just enjoy doing. And these are tings we shouldn't take away. The imperfection are what makes us all human. The souless robots/zentradi to are sadly represented as the 'perfection' (which is the "utopian ideal" that society desires to be) that is stuck in its role and can't live a life outside what it was designed for. True, being the best at one given task may allow that person to work efficiently but these are people too! Misa may come from a strict military family but that doesn't mean she can't love and doesn't have feelings too. Living your whole life dedicated to killing is just sad. One theme of macross zero is how the science can have a dark side: that all this technology and "culture" can blow up in your face as new weapons use to go and destroy rather than benefit society. The culture of one society's achievements can be used to hurt another culture and destroy that culture who relies on the land to live and can't survive in its state in modern times. (the natives will have to buy their food once they assimilate rather than hunt) Macross isn't as one-sided as the writer wants to make it seem. True the pop idol is what symbolically saves the day, but in DYRL the song itself was an ancient song the zentradi used to listen to so they are really just remembering something that they used to have back a long time ago and you can't say that it was the pop idol alone or consumerism that saves the alien, since the aliens already had their own form of it. It's more accurate to say that what saved them was feelings/emotions/love that they were programmed to not have since it got in the way of doing their assigned job efficiently. At the beginning of DYRL Misa is an efficient machine doing her duty for the military and nothing else. Happy to not have a man and telling claudia "that's ok if I die as an old lady alone by myself for the job I've been given from my family." Of course we know better and it's just her "tough side" speaking. Her real self is lying dormant in her just like the zentradi's memories of the past. In the end she remember to love again which is her natural human side, giving up her robotic attitude to life, and similarly the aliens themselves give up being loyal to the warrior-only profession and get to be whatever they want. (not just living for war) So it's not really the aliens alone that were saved by us, through consumerism, since misa is human too. It's the love, that lies dormant in each person. Minmay's music helped, and the consumer culture helped to make it profitable to keep doing it, but it's not the sole thing. Zentradi were awakened to themselves. Their true selves as individuals, sort of like the Replicants who didn't just want to do what they were programmed to do by "the man". Actually I think this is one of the reasons people don't like stick in mospeada since he is so devoted to "the man" that he even lets it get in the way of his judgement and can't see the very human failings within his own system. For example the Jonathan Wolf character that betrays him to the aliens because of a selfish need to buy time for himself so he can feel good fighting again once he builds up his own team using the energy he is given by the inbit in exchange for soldiers. Yeah Stick's war hero might be a good skilled solider, but his motivation to fighting comes from his need to 'feel good' for himself at others' expense. But Stick (being biased towards military men and thinking they can do no wrong) is not able to see that, because of the assumption that everyone thinks the same way. To him it's just black and white. Whereas any normal person knows that there are shades of grey in war, and that there are corrupt and selfish people working within the military too, which the more grounded earth-born humans like Rey, who've survived on instincts, can recognise. If the captured humans on earth had the technology to defeat the aliens maybe they would be just as gung ho as Stick, but when you are that close to the enemy and you have family to think about, you have to survive first. And that might mean you can't take a direct approach. (but a person up in space without much life experience might not understand this: that there CAN be 'bad' humans too getting away with bad things, and that the 'bad' doesn't just originate from aliens just because humans are currently at war with them, which is how stick wants to twist the truth to suit his own view of everything) For character's like stick it is very easy for them to forget that humans fought wars long before the inbit arrived so the source of evil can't all be blamed on "aliens". (similar to how some racist people in the real world try to blame a race for the cause of problems) Edited February 12, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exsedol Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 - I don't recall (others may correct me) that the city within the Macross had any name. RT named it, but I don't recall such a name in Macross. As far as I know there is no name for the city. The city and island are the same sort of like Key West. Key west is the name of the island and the city there. hehe I did however hear a rumour along time ago about the city being called "Megaroad City" but that could just be hearsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingNor Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 It's a nice take, i certainly am not a big fan of allegory, so i prefer to take my Macross pill for what it is, and not try to imbew some bigger theme. To me it's a story about love and loss, duty and personal gain, and how all these things interact. Sure it has a few (stretched) paralells to WW2 maybe, but its a show about a big war, how many REALLY big wars have modern tims had? 10 tops? and that's pushing it. Wars always involve isolation, huge odds and amazing heroism at some point. All the points he made about it being japan could pretty easily be applied (scaled up or down) to any encounter/battle in any modern war. So while not irrelevant, i think retrofiting meaning into a show like Macross is just a tad thin. Still a very interesting read. Even if really, it is mostly the opinion of the writer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) The important thing to remember in macross though, is that humans are related in some way to aliens. So there is a little bit of us in them and a little bit of them in us. They just were exploited by their leaders more that's all. So this focus only on the "consumerism", ignores the bigger reality that these are mind controlled zombies who can't even repair something, or express an original idea due to programming/memory blocking they've been given. We DID rescue them, but consumerism isn't the hero. It's bringing them back their culture that they'd already had in their own lives but which they lost (when they were exploited) that is the 'hero'. I mean they can't even laugh or joke because it's an alien concept. Consumerism isn't the only thing. Yes you could say the the tv series focuses on "popular" culture, but in other series like macross II (yeah I know it is not canon) they also focus on some of the great achievements of humankind in the scene where hibiki takes the alien girl on a date to see all the history of human race to educate her. He didn't just say "here listen to the top 40 pop music to learn about humans", or "here drink this coke!". The anime has to appeal to a young audience so I guess the original chose cool things like kung fu movies, pop music, kids model kits and toys, minmay dolls etc to illustrate why aliens would find human culture COOL to them enough to convince the audience that it was interesting enough for them to want to leave their boring life onboard the zentradi ships. I mean they could have had a scene where the zentradi find a human library, go to a museum, an art gallery, a church, or a scientific lab onboard the SDF-1 to learn more about the humans, but that's not as cool as a minmay doll or eating some exotic food at a restaurant which they've never experienced before. Younger audiences might have not been convinced that an alien would find that exciting compared to seeing a kung fu movie, a doll, music concert, getting drunk at a party, dancing, screwing a chic etc Edited February 13, 2008 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltane70 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Actually, Zinjo, even you have the facts about the UN Wars incorrect. These wars didn't start until July of 2000, after the crash of ASS-1 and the drafting of the plan to create the new United Nations Government. To quote the Macross Compedium: "2000 March Establishment of OTEC, an alien technology analysis research institute, through joint Japanese-American-Russian[soviet]-[West] German-English-French collaboration. April Research on anti-giant combat weaponry systems ([later designated as] Battroid and Destroid) begins. June The existence of aliens officially announced (except for their size and other details which are kept top secret). Following this, framing plan for Earth U.N. Government officially announced. July Outbreak of dispute in People's Republic of Garalia in the Middle East. The frequent disputes and internal conflicts occurring hereafter in all areas of the world become collectively known as the U.N. Wars." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gubaba Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I mean they could have had a scene where the zentradi find a human library, go to a museum, an art gallery, a church, or a scientific lab onboard the SDF-1 to learn more about the humans, but that's not as cool as a minmay doll or eating some exotic food at a restaurant which they've never experienced before. Younger audiences might have not been convinced that an alien would find that exciting compared to seeing a kung fu movie, a doll, music concert, getting drunk at a party, dancing, screwing a chic etc Are you kidding? I'd LOVE to see the monthly Zentradi reading group as they struggle their way through Marcel Proust's seven-volume masterwork of high modernism, Á la recherche du temps perdu! Talk about drama...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) Actually, Zinjo, even you have the facts about the UN Wars incorrect. These wars didn't start until July of 2000, after the crash of ASS-1 and the drafting of the plan to create the new United Nations Government. To quote the Macross Compedium: "2000 March Establishment of OTEC, an alien technology analysis research institute, through joint Japanese-American-Russian[soviet]-[West] German-English-French collaboration. April Research on anti-giant combat weaponry systems ([later designated as] Battroid and Destroid) begins. June The existence of aliens officially announced (except for their size and other details which are kept top secret). Following this, framing plan for Earth U.N. Government officially announced. July Outbreak of dispute in People's Republic of Garalia in the Middle East. The frequent disputes and internal conflicts occurring hereafter in all areas of the world become collectively known as the U.N. Wars." Thanks for the correction. I got the RT and Macross histories somewhat combined. In RT the UN Wars ended with the crash, while in Macross they began. Edited February 25, 2008 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macross007 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Thanks for the correction. I got the RT and Macross histories somewhat combined. In RT the UN Wars ended with the crash, while in Macross they began. Actually, it's UN Wars in Macross and Global War in Robo..., Robo..., Robo..., ... Sorry, but it seems that I cannot write or say crappy word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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