kensei Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 IMO the only good subbed versions of Macross Zero are some of the fansubs available on the net for downloading. I want to credit BW for what they have done, but I don't speak any japanese. I also don't want to get into any trouble either, and have no interest in buying some terrible bootleg. What if I, bought all the genuine Macross Zero DVD's now (ones that are released and the rest later when they come out), as my DVD player can play any region, and downloaded the best fansubs for each episode? I could use my DVD burner to make DVDs out of the fansubs and I couldn't get into trouble for that would I? And lastly, what is the purpose of a fansub? To provide a faithful yet understandable version of the orignal or just plain pirating? PS oh yeah and HG Blows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myriad Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Just turn the fansubs into DVD or SVCD or VCD. No one will get hurt. Buy the Region 1 release when it comes out. That is what is important. Until then the only way you can get it and understand the dialogue is through the fansubbers. Fansubbers also give Region 1 disributors a heads up on what is hot. Macross Zero will probably get the typical treatment for licensing: The series will almost be completed and then it will get a Region 1 distributer. In "theory" the Fansubbers stop when the licensing happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 And lastly, what is the purpose of a fansub? To provide a faithful yet understandable version of the orignal or just plain pirating? Welcome to the world of fansubbed anime. Fansubs' original main purpose is to provide anime translated to fans by fans, and to promote it to the masses. There might not be such a big anime following in the west as there would be now if it wasn't for fansubs. Its because of fansubs as well that anime licensing companies pop up like ADV, Pioneer, etc, since they realise there is a market for english speakers. Brief history lesson. Before the Internet, anime enthuthiasts traded what little anime VHS they had amongst each other, and subbed them (with what arcane technology they had) and distributed to people who are interested. Now with the Internet, everything else is history. Today, ethical fansubbers will stop subbing an anime once it gets licensed by a company. But even if they don't stop, copyright laws do not have full enforcement over the material subbed. Its a gray area. For example, what if the fansubber is not located in the US? If he/she was from China....and Macross Zero is not licensed there, does HG or anyone else has any right to tell them to stop fansubbing Mac 0? Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F360° Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Like what "Myriad" said, you could just download the Macross Zero fansub and convert them to SVCD / DVD. As long as you are not selling them for a profit then you're not consider privating. Oh and getting the offical Macross Zero when it's come out would be a plus. Converting the AVI to SVCD is pretty easy, depending on how fast is your system you can do it in around 20 minutes a ep. AMD2400+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 (edited) Today, ethical fansubbers will stop subbing an anime once it gets licensed by a company. But even if they don't stop, copyright laws do not have full enforcement over the material subbed. Its a gray area. For example, what if the fansubber is not located in the US? If he/she was from China....and Macross Zero is not licensed there, does HG or anyone else has any right to tell them to stop fansubbing Mac 0? I have absolutely nothing against fansubbing, but this statement is incorrect as I understand copyright law. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so I may be mistaken. However, my understanding is that any work created in a country which belongs to the Berne Convention (such as Japan and the US) enjoys copyright protection in all Berne countries. Whoever owns the copyright of M0 in Japan is already the copyright owner in the U.S. China is also a signatory of the Berne convention. Even if a work is fansubbed in a non-Berne country, importing and distributing the fansub in a Berne country would be a violation of that country's copyright laws. It's not a gray area in terms of the law. It is a grey area in terms of enforcement. Here are several web pages that specifically address the issue of fansubs and Berne: http://www.fansubs.net/fsw/general/faq1b.htm http://www.fansubs.info/fanfaq.php?view=legality http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...xicon.php?id=63 http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature.php?id=144 http://senseis.xmp.net/?Cookie3 Edited February 9, 2004 by ewilen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I have absolutely nothing against fansubbing, but this statement is incorrect as I understand copyright law. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so I may be mistaken. However, my understanding is that any work created in a country which belongs to the Berne Convention (such as Japan and the US) enjoys copyright protection in all Berne countries.... It's not a gray area in terms of the law. It is a grey area in terms of enforcement. Bingo. This is why, a few times back (I think it was Vandred where this came up) Japanese producers/creators have politely asked that fansubbers stop distributing their works online even though they were not licensed. Although no one really listened to them. So basically, unless the episode is distributed online from the official site, it's a bootleg. Irregardless of what people may say or think, fansubs are illegal. But people still do it. It's like downloading music from p2p networks. Regardless of what the industry does to curb it, people still do it. And lastly, what is the purpose of a fansub? To provide a faithful yet understandable version of the orignal or just plain pirating? http://www.fansubs.net/fsw/general/faq1a.htm I considered myself as part of the olde guard that held this belief. However, in recent years, this ideology has withered. With the growth of the Net and many other technologies, this belief became a thing of the past. Anime is mainstream now, regardless of what people think. Shows are now shown in various part of the globe and on cable, their on at least every day on Cartoon Network. Titles are also licensed much quicker than before and at least 30-some titles are licensed every year. Video stores now have sections for anime so the second part of fansubs is complete. Titles now come with Japanese audo with English subtitles and with dubbed English audio. Thanks to DVDs, they've eliminated the need to purchase seperate editions, raw shows or just dubbed versions. So the first reason was answered. So if the job of fansubs is complete, why do we still have them? Like I said, the growth of technology has spawned something new. Why we still have them in light of all this still a mystery to me. I'm not against the current fansubs but the original reason behind them now has been answered and it should be up to the new-age fansubbers to answer the question of why we still have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensei Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 (edited) Thanks for the info ewilen, azrael, and others. I pretty much agree that fansubs are illegal. No matter what argument you present to me, my opinion will stay that way. I do admit though, that fansubbers have helped a lot in promoting anime in the west. I was looking for a more definite answer though. It kinda applies to the music industry as well sorta, but I really wanna get my hands on Macross Zero DVD's and play them on my home entertainment system, not just one my computer. If I buy the Macross Zero DVD's (official) now (and others when they are released) and upon recieving them, I download the fansubbed versions and make them into DVDs I have no chance of getting busted right? I mean, I got the originals, and the only reason that I downloaded the fansubs is because I don't understand japanese. That will be my argument (if and ever I get caught). And of course, I will never sell them, or let anybody copy them. Edited February 9, 2004 by kensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Göönk Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 get caught by who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 ewilen: ahh...interesting. Thanks for the links. Yes, it seems there's a difficulty enforcing a copyright outside the country origin rather than there's no protection if its outside the country of origin. Thanks for clearing that up for me. But reading the Berne thing a little more, it seems its not so much of distributing the videos that is the problem. Its more of the visual editing of the show (to add in subtitles) that is causing the problem because you require permission from the copyright owner to translate the work. The way I understand it from all those links, it would be technically legal if fansubs distributed translations on a .txt file....or a .sub file for vobsub use (which is basically a text file with timestamps to tell when the text shows up on screen), fansubs would probably be legal since recording anime and distributing it falls under fair use (unless its for commercial gain). If what I'm assuming is right, .sub files will be the next "in thing" for fansubbers if license enforcers decide to take legal action against fansubs. (like the RIAA-scale campaigns) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 But reading the Berne thing a little more, it seems its not so much of distributing the videos that is the problem. Its more of the visual editing of the show (to add in subtitles) that is causing the problem because you require permission from the copyright owner to translate the work. Okay, again, I'm not a lawyer, but I've been reading up on Japanese copyright law and a bit on US copyright law. If you're saying that distributing the videos without editing them would be okay, I'm afraid you're mistaken. (I don't think you're saying that but I want to be clear.) The way I understand it from all those links, it would be technically legal if fansubs distributed translations on a .txt file....or a .sub file for vobsub use (which is basically a text file with timestamps to tell when the text shows up on screen), fansubs would probably be legal since recording anime and distributing it falls under fair use (unless its for commercial gain). If what I'm assuming is right, .sub files will be the next "in thing" for fansubbers if license enforcers decide to take legal action against fansubs. (like the RIAA-scale campaigns) In my opinion, even if the script were not independently copyrighted, a translation of the script of a work would fall under clauses of laws and treaties governing translation and adaptation. ("Translation" means not only converting to another language, but reproducing in a different medium.) Even if you didn't directly translate the script and instead wrote a short story based on the original work, you would be creating an unauthorized adaptation. One example from film history is the first vampire movie, Nosferatu. A silent movie produced in German, it was an adaption of the British novel Dracula, with various details altered in a transparent attempt to get around copyright law. The owners of the Dracula copyright won an infringement case and it's only by luck that any prints of Nosferatu have survived. (The Bela Lugosi version of Dracula was produced years later.) Basically, fansubs, fan-translations, even fan fiction are "allowed" to be distributed because the copyright holders of the original works don't feel like bothering to clamp down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfx Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 But reading the Berne thing a little more, it seems its not so much of distributing the videos that is the problem. Its more of the visual editing of the show (to add in subtitles) that is causing the problem because you require permission from the copyright owner to translate the work. Okay, again, I'm not a lawyer, but I've been reading up on Japanese copyright law and a bit on US copyright law. If you're saying that distributing the videos without editing them would be okay, I'm afraid you're mistaken. (I don't think you're saying that but I want to be clear.) That's exactly what I'm saying. It falls under fair use and most people would argue that its for "educational purposes" and own use. Gray area there for you. Its no different from some dude who recorded a show off TV, and decided to borrow his copy to friends who missed the show. If you say this is illegal, VHS or any recording sort of medium might as well be illegal as well if you argue that copying off TV makes the copy an unauthorised copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southcross Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 What I would like to see (from Big West, Manga, any other licensed company that could publish a R1 subbed), is to do what the US government did back in the late 80's. Back before hackers were a dime a dozen: when hackers got caught... they did their time, when they came up for paroll they got offered Government jobs The publishing company should research out who does the good fansubs, offer them jobs! I have seen some real nice Fansubs, and I will agree with what I have heard time and time again... a lot of Fansubs are better than the "official release" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 (edited) Okay, again, I'm not a lawyer, but I've been reading up on Japanese copyright law and a bit on US copyright law. If you're saying that distributing the videos without editing them would be okay, I'm afraid you're mistaken. (I don't think you're saying that but I want to be clear.) That's exactly what I'm saying. It falls under fair use and most people would argue that its for "educational purposes" and own use. Gray area there for you. In that case, you are mistaken. Copying and distributing complete unaltered videos without permission of the copyright holder is copyright infringement, period. It doesn't matter if the video was made in Japan or made in the U.S. You might as well argue "fair use" when copying domestic DVDs or sharing music over Kazaa. Good luck. Here's the first item that came up when I Googled copying "fair use". Read it, and if you have further questions, I'd suggest additional web searches or consulting a lawyer or law professor. Edit: here's the item-- http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article...312FE5C119B5806 Edited February 12, 2004 by ewilen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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