Kronnang Dunn Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) wow, i didn't even know that such a series existed!! the difference with thisone is that the humans are technologically superior to the giants. Yep... Maybe Shoji Kawamori watched it when he was a kid, hehehe... (He must have been like 8 at the time). Edited May 23, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFTF1 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Well Valkyries in the shows are powered by thermonuclear reactors as well. The engines in their legs are basically compact nuclear reactors (which heat up air/gas to a plasma state and thrust it out for propellant). A monster probably would need/has in the show a bigger reactor or reactors. Wow! That's really interesting - and so logical. So when gas/air is heated to a plasma state...then...then what? What is a "plasma state?" exactly and ...what does the heating of gas and air have to do with thermonuclear reactions? (thermo means like..temperature/heat... nuclear...nuclea... nucleons? ... is plasma have something to do with nucleons?) Sorry for asking what is probably a schoolyard level question - But I have no where near the expertise of an engineer and yet it sounds to interesting.... Does this mean that the Valkyrie only needs an atmosphere to fly in, and never needs to refeul? It's enough that there is gas/air going in? And then what does it run on in space? VFTF1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronnang Dunn Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) Wow! That's really interesting - and so logical. So when gas/air is heated to a plasma state...then...then what? What is a "plasma state?" exactly and ...what does the heating of gas and air have to do with thermonuclear reactions? (thermo means like..temperature/heat... nuclear...nuclea... nucleons? ... is plasma have something to do with nucleons?) Sorry for asking what is probably a schoolyard level question - But I have no where near the expertise of an engineer and yet it sounds to interesting.... Does this mean that the Valkyrie only needs an atmosphere to fly in, and never needs to refeul? It's enough that there is gas/air going in? And then what does it run on in space? VFTF1 AFAIK a plasma is a very very very hot gas... Must be used for propulsion then... Edited May 23, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Wow! That's really interesting - and so logical. So when gas/air is heated to a plasma state...then...then what? What is a "plasma state?" exactly and ...what does the heating of gas and air have to do with thermonuclear reactions? (thermo means like..temperature/heat... nuclear...nuclea... nucleons? ... is plasma have something to do with nucleons?) Sorry for asking what is probably a schoolyard level question - But I have no where near the expertise of an engineer and yet it sounds to interesting.... Does this mean that the Valkyrie only needs an atmosphere to fly in, and never needs to refeul? It's enough that there is gas/air going in? And then what does it run on in space? VFTF1 Plasma is ionized gas, in other words some of its electrons are free of the atom. AFAIK it's probably the most common state of matter in our universe. And yes, it means that in an atmosphere, a Valk can theoretically fly forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Wow! That's really interesting - and so logical. So when gas/air is heated to a plasma state...then...then what? What is a "plasma state?" exactly and ...what does the heating of gas and air have to do with thermonuclear reactions? (thermo means like..temperature/heat... nuclear...nuclea... nucleons? ... is plasma have something to do with nucleons?) Sorry for asking what is probably a schoolyard level question - But I have no where near the expertise of an engineer and yet it sounds to interesting.... Does this mean that the Valkyrie only needs an atmosphere to fly in, and never needs to refeul? It's enough that there is gas/air going in? And then what does it run on in space? VFTF1 Continuing the chain on quoting you. Both the other two are technically right. Plasma is the fourth state of matter after Solid, Liquid, and Gas. You heat Solid, it goes to liquid, more heat, you get gas, even more heat, you get plasma. Technically fire is a type of plasma. Thermonuclear is a word used to describe a certain type of nuclear reactor, specifically one which not only fissions but fuses material (though in the future we should have pure fusion without fission, which is a lot safer and gives more power). The reactor most likely fuses hydrogen into helium or something to that extent and the resulting fusion creates immense energy which powers the valk. At the same time the heat from the reaction heats up air that is collected inside the valks engines. By super heating the air, which is in a gas state, the particles will move faster and will become what is known as plasma. The plasma will then be thrust out the back of the engine by path of least resistance most likely, plasma is very energetic, it needs somewhere to go and in a close engine the best way to go is out the exhaust port, same thing on any conventional rocket. As for refueling, in an atmosphere the valkyrie will always have air it can suck it, heat up and thrust out for propulsion, so it doesn't run out of "engine fuel" technically. However it can run out of reactor fuel which is the afore mentioned hydrogen or whatever element that is being fused in the reactor to create the energy/heat that is turning the air into plasma in the first place, and also what is powering the valkyrie. This really isn't that much of a problem though, you can get a lot of energy and heat from fusing small amounts of hydrogen, and you can carry a large enough supply on board the reactors probably to last you a good long while, so you could probably fly the valk in an atmosphere for a very long time. In space, things are different. The Reactor fuel bit is the same, with the hydrogen or some such fusible material. However you can't suck in air for propellant as there is none. In this case valks probably have an extra on board supply of some type of inert gas that can be heated up into plasma to be used for propulsion. The difference between this system and conventional jet engines is one of energy, power, and safety. Nuclear reactors provide so much more energy (in the common form of electricity) than burning fossil fuels like gas, and that means more power. It is also cleaner for the most part. The only unclean part is the byproduct of radiation which is abundant from nuclear fission, but in fusion there is very little to no noticeable radiation as a result. The downside is even nuclear reactors can't be fool proof. Instead of sitting on a gas fueled turbine that could malfunction and explode in a big cloud, you are now sitting on a nuclear furnace that if malfunctions, could result in what we know as a nuclear bomb. The chance of the nuclear reactor malfunctioning and causing a chain reaction resulting in a nuke is not much, and is much more highly unlikely with fusion that fission but it is possible, however still much safer that the current jet engines. Anyway, there is my short version of how a supposed thermonuclear reaction engine works... yes, that's the short version. Remember kids, science is fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Well... Both Kazutaka Miyatake & Shoji Kawamori worked in Uchuu Senkan Yamato as interns/guest designers I believe (Kawamori was a teenager back then). Miyatake designed the SDF-1, so I guess he must have seen the original BSG since his Macross design is waaay different than those of Yamato. I read somewhere that Kawamori is a fan of Space Battleship Yamato & it influenced his works a lot... Gamilons= Zentradi Wave Motion Gun = Super Dimension Cannon Wave Motion Engine = Fold Reactor You don't have a higher res picture of that SDF-? do you? I'd love one for my cartoon collection... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronnang Dunn Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 (edited) You don't have a higher res picture of that SDF-? do you? I'd love one for my cartoon collection... Sadly no... I can't remember exactly where I found it... Maybe it came from 4chan... Edited May 24, 2008 by Kronnang Dunn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamweaver13 Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Continuing the chain on quoting you. Both the other two are technically right. Plasma is the fourth state of matter after Solid, Liquid, and Gas. You heat Solid, it goes to liquid, more heat, you get gas, even more heat, you get plasma. Technically fire is a type of plasma. Thermonuclear is a word used to describe a certain type of nuclear reactor, specifically one which not only fissions but fuses material (though in the future we should have pure fusion without fission, which is a lot safer and gives more power). The reactor most likely fuses hydrogen into helium or something to that extent and the resulting fusion creates immense energy which powers the valk. At the same time the heat from the reaction heats up air that is collected inside the valks engines. By super heating the air, which is in a gas state, the particles will move faster and will become what is known as plasma. The plasma will then be thrust out the back of the engine by path of least resistance most likely, plasma is very energetic, it needs somewhere to go and in a close engine the best way to go is out the exhaust port, same thing on any conventional rocket. As for refueling, in an atmosphere the valkyrie will always have air it can suck it, heat up and thrust out for propulsion, so it doesn't run out of "engine fuel" technically. However it can run out of reactor fuel which is the afore mentioned hydrogen or whatever element that is being fused in the reactor to create the energy/heat that is turning the air into plasma in the first place, and also what is powering the valkyrie. This really isn't that much of a problem though, you can get a lot of energy and heat from fusing small amounts of hydrogen, and you can carry a large enough supply on board the reactors probably to last you a good long while, so you could probably fly the valk in an atmosphere for a very long time. In space, things are different. The Reactor fuel bit is the same, with the hydrogen or some such fusible material. However you can't suck in air for propellant as there is none. In this case valks probably have an extra on board supply of some type of inert gas that can be heated up into plasma to be used for propulsion. The difference between this system and conventional jet engines is one of energy, power, and safety. Nuclear reactors provide so much more energy (in the common form of electricity) than burning fossil fuels like gas, and that means more power. It is also cleaner for the most part. The only unclean part is the byproduct of radiation which is abundant from nuclear fission, but in fusion there is very little to no noticeable radiation as a result. The downside is even nuclear reactors can't be fool proof. Instead of sitting on a gas fueled turbine that could malfunction and explode in a big cloud, you are now sitting on a nuclear furnace that if malfunctions, could result in what we know as a nuclear bomb. The chance of the nuclear reactor malfunctioning and causing a chain reaction resulting in a nuke is not much, and is much more highly unlikely with fusion that fission but it is possible, however still much safer that the current jet engines. Anyway, there is my short version of how a supposed thermonuclear reaction engine works... yes, that's the short version. Remember kids, science is fun. yes it is. very cool! thanks for the short lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex SDU Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 In space, things are different. The Reactor fuel bit is the same, with the hydrogen or some such fusible material. However you can't suck in air for propellant as there is none. In this case valks probably have an extra on board supply of some type of inert gas that can be heated up into plasma to be used for propulsion. So...lets say that a VF fly into a nebula, is that mean that it in a gas-rich environment? Wouldn't that mean it's similar to flying in the atmosphere? I'm just guessing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 So...lets say that a VF fly into a nebula, is that mean that it in a gas-rich environment? Wouldn't that mean it's similar to flying in the atmosphere? I'm just guessing here. Plausible, depends maybe on how gas-rich the nebula is. Another thing I've been wondering about, can VFs top up their internal propellant reserves while they're in an atmosphere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 So...lets say that a VF fly into a nebula, is that mean that it in a gas-rich environment? Wouldn't that mean it's similar to flying in the atmosphere? I'm just guessing here. Not really as the turbines for sucking in air still wouldn't work because while there is gas in a nebula it is still gas in a vacuum. It would have to be densely packed with the pressure of an atmosphere to be able to be collected by the VF's engines. There is a chance it could catch some gas but I wouldn't bet on it. Now if it had another way of collecting the gas like a ram scoop or something then they could at least refuel their internal reserves. Basically they fly into the gas and the ram scoop tries to collect what it can magnetically. However the main problem with this is a ram scoop is intended for hydrogen by Bussard's theory (hence the name Bussard Ram Scoop) and if the nebula is something else it might be harder to heat up for plasma than hydrogen. Anything can be heated to plasma but not everything can be done as easily as hydrogen. The Nitrogen/Oxygen combination in our atmosphere doesn't take much more energy to heat than hydrogen so that is why that works so well but if you try collecting something that takes longer to heat you basically lose fuel efficiency. Other problems with ram scoops include the fact that it's size would need to be near 600 km in diameters and the buildup of particles might slow it down. So it is highly unlikely you'd put this mechanism on a Valkyrie. Plausible, depends maybe on how gas-rich the nebula is. Another thing I've been wondering about, can VFs top up their internal propellant reserves while they're in an atmosphere? Like I mentioned before what they most likely use for their internal propellant is probably hydrogen as it is easiest to heat to plasma (hence why NASA is thinking hydrogen for its nuclear rockets). While the air of our atmosphere works as well, I don't know if mixing it with the hydrogen reserves is useful at all. However if the VF's don't even use hydrogen and just stuff their tanks with air (that is mostly Nitrogen and Oxygen) then I don't see why they can't just take what they suck in and forward it to their tanks instead of propelling it. It would make for easy refilling. However I still think pure hydrogen is probably used when in space as it is easiest and hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe, it is very unlikely to ever be in short supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Like I mentioned before what they most likely use for their internal propellant is probably hydrogen as it is easiest to heat to plasma (hence why NASA is thinking hydrogen for its nuclear rockets). While the air of our atmosphere works as well, I don't know if mixing it with the hydrogen reserves is useful at all. However if the VF's don't even use hydrogen and just stuff their tanks with air (that is mostly Nitrogen and Oxygen) then I don't see why they can't just take what they suck in and forward it to their tanks instead of propelling it. It would make for easy refilling. However I still think pure hydrogen is probably used when in space as it is easiest and hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe, it is very unlikely to ever be in short supply. Actually, after giving it some thought, I realized that it would reaquire extra plumbing and equipment to not only suck, but compress the gas (as I figure valks probably store their propellant in pressurized tanks) would add further complications and cost to an already complicated and expensive peice of equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Actually, after giving it some thought, I realized that it would require extra plumbing and equipment to not only suck, but compress the gas (as I figure valks probably store their propellant in pressurized tanks) would add further complications and cost to an already complicated and expensive piece of equipment. Yeah that is probably a good point, pressurized gives you more propellant to burn (or in this case heat). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3v Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) Yeah that is probably a good point, pressurized gives you more propellant to burn (or in this case heat). Actually, if it is hydrogen that they're burning, then it's likely stored in liquid form in a pressurized, refrigerated tank similar to what those hydrogen powered cars you can lease from BMW, Mazda and soon Honda. Edited July 2, 2008 by d3v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Dex Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Actually, if it is hydrogen their burning, it's stored in liquid form in a pressurized, refrigerated tank similar to whatthose hydrogen pwoered cars you can lease from BMW, Mazda and soon Honda. Hydrogen can be liquid or gas but it heats to plasma faster as gas. Don't forget those cars don't work the same way as nuclear engines. It isn't like we are heating hydrogen to plasma to power those cars. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are powered by a chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen, which produces water and electricity which the latter is use to power an electric traction motor. Although it is possible to use hydrogen in a car like gasoline, that is to burn it. However the common idea for hydrogen cars is to go with the fuel cell concept because it is clean and the aforementioned water is your only exhaust, plus your fuel efficiency (at least in Honda's new FCX Clarity) is equivalent to a gas powered car getting 78 mpg which is very high and unusual for a gas car. Good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex SDU Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Actually, if it is hydrogen that they're burning, then it's likely stored in liquid form in a pressurized, refrigerated tank similar to what those hydrogen powered cars you can lease from BMW, Mazda and soon Honda. Hydrogen can be liquid or gas but it heats to plasma faster as gas. Don't forget those cars don't work the same way as nuclear engines. It isn't like we are heating hydrogen to plasma to power those cars. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are powered by a chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen, which produces water and electricity which the latter is use to power an electric traction motor. Although it is possible to use hydrogen in a car like gasoline, that is to burn it. However the common idea for hydrogen cars is to go with the fuel cell concept because it is clean and the aforementioned water is your only exhaust, plus your fuel efficiency (at least in Honda's new FCX Clarity) is equivalent to a gas powered car getting 78 mpg which is very high and unusual for a gas car. Good stuff. Somehow the HBT fuel cell keep on playing in my mind while I was reading these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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