The MW Automotive Thread

[Poonman]

They're also really ugly. Bangle is getting better, but even his new designs lack the soul of the older BMWs.

i feel totally opposite about Bangles designs- I think they're the biggest breath of fresh air automotive design has gotten in years. the new 5 and 3 series for me has really confirmed BMW as the trend setter they've always been. Bangle is saying "cars don't need the taillights like that, the headlights like that, the trunk like that etc." the new Lexus IS350 is a carbon copy of the 3 series and the new GS stole from bmw too. and wait till you see the new Camry- its all Bangle.

I think your sweethearts over at Acura could learn a thing or two from him also and quit making such bland looking cars

the only "envelope" the japs are pushing in the design area these days is smoothing their lines out even more like the new Civic and G35 coupe. in my opinion Bangles flame licked, origami designs are the way of the future, not the conservative designs the japs are giving their cars.

Don't confuse F1 gearboxes for the ones they put on production cars, as they tend to be very different. I can't speak for the quality of the BMW ones, but comparing them to F1 gear is a bit silly. Next you'll be telling us all factory spoilers are worthwhile because F1 cars have spoilers too...

and don't confuse SMG or DSG with a "tiptronic" tranny. do a little research

Edited October 27, 2005 by Poonman

[pfunk]

They're also really ugly. Bangle is getting better, but even his new designs lack the soul of the older BMWs.

i feel totally opposite about Bangles designs- I think they're the biggest breath of fresh air automotive design has gotten in years. the new 5 and 3 series for me has really confirmed BMW as the trend setter they've always been. Bangle is saying "cars don't need the taillights like that, the headlights like that, the trunk like that etc." the new Lexus IS350 is a carbon copy of the 3 series and the new GS stole from bmw too. and wait till you see the new Camry- its all Bangle.

I think your sweethearts over at Acura could learn a thing or two from him also and quit making such bland looking cars

the only "envelope" the japs are pushing in the design area these days is smoothing their lines out even more like the new Civic and G35 coupe. in my opinion Bangles flame licked, origami designs are the way of the future, not the conservative designs the japs are giving their cars.

Don't confuse F1 gearboxes for the ones they put on production cars, as they tend to be very different. I can't speak for the quality of the BMW ones, but comparing them to F1 gear is a bit silly. Next you'll be telling us all factory spoilers are worthwhile because F1 cars have spoilers too...

and don't confuse SMG or DSG with a "tiptronic" tranny. do a little research

339982[/snapback]

from what Ive read, the only real manual auto in a street car is the F1 ferarri and the clutch is throttle activated unlike a torque converter or a clutched automatic (replacing the T/C with a hydrolic clutch) and guess what the recommended intervals of REPLACEMENT (not to be confused with service) are,,, 20,000 miles and extremly complex. This is a racing trans, not meant for the street

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46726

[Stamen0083]

Please, Bangle designs are precisely what's wrong with the automotive world today. New Camry? Ugly. New GS? Ugly. New IS? Ugly. New 3 and 5 series? Pretty farting ugly.

So if anything, Honda is doing the right thing by not buying into the Bangle hype.

[trueblueeyes]

Without getting into a subjective argument over how one car design looks better than another, I do have a complaint. Despite all the companies building vehicles, it often seems like the majority of products share the same design elements. It is like one designer does everything. Look at retro styling...I love the new Mustang but you have to admit some of the car companies have overdone old-is-new styling. And it is far from the only overused element. I guess in a way, you can't blame the auto manufacturers. Boxy sells well, design boxy vehicles. Small cars sell well, design small cars. Car with smoothed egdes sell well, etc....you get the idea. So in a way, it makes sense. I'd just like to see more companies take chances with unique styles and avoid all of the "me too-ism".

[Agent ONE]

...

the only "envelope" the japs are pushing ...

339982[/snapback]

The "japs" eh?

I don't think that is the perfered nomenclature.

[pfunk]

Without getting into a subjective argument over how one car design looks better than another, I do have a complaint.  Despite all the companies building vehicles, it often seems like the majority of products share the same design elements.  It is like one designer does everything.  Look at retro styling...I love the new Mustang but you have to admit some of the car companies have overdone old-is-new styling.  And it is far from the only overused element.  I guess in a way, you can't blame the auto manufacturers.  Boxy sells well, design boxy vehicles.  Small cars sell well, design small cars.  Car with smoothed egdes sell well, etc....you get the idea.  So in a way, it makes sense.  I'd just like to see more companies take chances with unique styles and avoid all of the "me too-ism".

340114[/snapback]

I, and most people 100% agree with you, but heres the problem,

Taking the vette for example,,,,,,,

Its been 10 years and our sales are dropping on our Corvette model and the Viper and Ferrari are begining to stomp us at the track again. We need a new car.

points,,

Need high horsepower model for racing and top gun status (Z06 program)

Customer base,,, (loyalists (60 yr old male) will purchase new body style)

Dave Hill (Ex Cadilac guy, now Corvette manager) wants everything a caddy has and cant understand why the top hasnt been power,,,,ever (Customer marketing agrees, hence power top option)

Kick off design studio ussing references of competitions cars (Ferarri & Viper)

Customer focus group thinks a 275hp V6 Vette, no power windows, priced around 30,000 would sell like hot cakes,,,,,,loyal vette owners state they wont buy one if it is availably to the "general" public, V6 program cancelled

Clay models are mocked up for the focus group (somewhier in Cali) and a mix between the general publick and return customers votes on the best design,,,,,,

Engineering takes design to portfilio to prepackage the car (ocupants safty standards,,,,engine, you get the point) and makes changes accordingly

engineering now starts designing the vehical for manufacturability,,,,,more changes

engineering finds out how much it will cost to manufacture certain parts,,,,,shits and makes more changes,,, boom, car comes out to the public and resembles what the studio did.

This was a basic program, a lot more things go into acount when a car is brought to the market, but you get the idea.

Car manufacturers hire, fire, change the way they do business so often that they NEVER learn from thier mistakes unlike high end manufacturers who refuse to change thier ways. In the 15 yrs Ive been in the Auto business every time a new program is started its like reinventing the wheel

(unless you work for Mercedees (no afiliation with Chrystler), Lotus, Ferarri, Lamborghini, rolls, etc....Even Porche is starting to follow suit in the "big" companies shoes which is very sad BTW trying to become tooo broad in the market instead of sticking to what they know. I wont get into the big wigs just looking out for thier own pocket book

[yellowlightman]

Without getting into a subjective argument over how one car design looks better than another, I do have a complaint.  Despite all the companies building vehicles, it often seems like the majority of products share the same design elements.  It is like one designer does everything.  Look at retro styling...I love the new Mustang but you have to admit some of the car companies have overdone old-is-new styling.  And it is far from the only overused element.  I guess in a way, you can't blame the auto manufacturers.  Boxy sells well, design boxy vehicles.  Small cars sell well, design small cars.  Car with smoothed egdes sell well, etc....you get the idea.  So in a way, it makes sense.  I'd just like to see more companies take chances with unique styles and avoid all of the "me too-ism".

340114[/snapback]

I totally agree. The retro thing is overdone, the overly-smoothe bubble look is overdone and in general it's a pretty uninventive time in the industry. It's a weird company to bring up, but I really like what Cadillac has done in the past few years. Not only have they managed to completely re-do themselves, their new look is modern and aggressive without looking like a copycat. Not to mention many of their cars are getting better reviews than their European competition...

[Golden Arms]

Speaking of reviews, there was a article in todays business section stating that in a JD power associates review that the US automakers have seen better 3 yr performance reviews of their cars than the European automakers. They get fewer customer complaints and recalls over this 3 year period. They still trail behind the Japanese manufacturers though.

[reddsun1]

I thought that Bugatti Veyron reminded me of something....yeah, it's a technilogical marvel, a real horsepower junkie's dream. But gawd, why'd they make it so damn ugly? They should have called it "dung beetle," cause that's what it looks like...

But just when I thought Bugatti would reign supreme for "fugliest supercar ever designed," Audi steps up to the plate to challenge with their LeMans coupe supercar.

[pfunk]

I thought that Bugatti Veyron reminded me of something....yeah, it's a technilogical marvel, a real horsepower junkie's dream.  But gawd, why'd they make it so damn ugly?  They should have called it "dung beetle," cause that's what it looks like...

But just when I thought Bugatti would reign supreme for "fugliest supercar ever designed," Audi steps up to the plate to challenge with their LeMans coupe supercar.

340382[/snapback]

As far as Im concerned when Bugatti died and the company went under, the cars died too. I hate the fact they resurected his name for the pure sake of selling sports cars for I believe the messer company,, they just bought the name, Bugatti's son sold the company in the 60's and all i believe they made at the time was airplane parts for the past like 5-10 years

[Poonman]

...

the only "envelope" the japs are pushing ...

339982[/snapback]

The "japs" eh?

I don't think that is the perfered nomenclature.

340135[/snapback]

its just faster than typing "japanese". i'm not trying to be racist in any way and I appologize if I offended anyone.

I totally agree. The retro thing is overdone, the overly-smoothe bubble look is overdone and in general it's a pretty uninventive time in the industry. It's a weird company to bring up, but I really like what Cadillac has done in the past few years. Not only have they managed to completely re-do themselves, their new look is modern and aggressive without looking like a copycat. Not to mention many of their cars are getting better reviews than their European competition...

340202[/snapback]

i really liked what cadillac was doing RIGHT when their new cars came out but now that the Escalade and CTS have a few years under their belts those pearl white cars are starting to look REAL nasty. ofcourse the XLR is still awesome but the rest of their new line up is starting to look really cheap and gawdy- nothing but plastic.

not to mention the TERRIBLE interiors they gave those CTS's. my moms 95 maxima had a better interior than what those have.

[Viceland]

Thought I'd lighten up this thread a little...

If you're not yet aware that one of the interesting feature of the Mercedes Smart Car is swapable body panels, get your head out of your buttcrack! While trying to cash in on the Smart Car craze, Takara, in association with Mercedes, introduces their new line-up of full size DigiQ-style swapable whole bodies for Smart Cars! Takara hopes to bring in a new era in the useless and ridiculous non-performance enhancing car modification industry!

Here we go!

My apologies if these have been posted here before, but I wasn't about to browse thru an 84 page thread to find out.

Cheers.

[areaseven]

My apologies if these have been posted here before, but I wasn't about to browse thru an 84 page thread to find out.

341173[/snapback]

Actually, this is news to the entire thread. What'll they think of next?

[yellowlightman]

That's some good Photoshopping...

[Agent ONE]

That's some good Photoshopping...

341209[/snapback]

yep, it would have been more believable if the wheels were not 20s.

[bsu legato]

You know, its bound to happen someday. Not necessarily the Smart car, but somebody will make a little coupe with interchangeable panels. I remember reading an old Car and Driver (or was it Motor Trend) where Pontiac was bragging that consumers would be able to do exactly what those photochops promised, with the 'new" Fiero.

[reddsun1]

Awww, they're adorable! I want a baby 911! Ooh! Ooh, wait! I want a baby Lambo!

[Stamen0083]

Damn it. I thought you were serious. >_<

[Agent ONE]

If those were real, that would be kinda cool.

[pfunk]

id love a bitty Lambo for the youngin

[Mechwarrior]

NICE!

That may just be my next project actually, Its basically just a fiberglass job anyhow, ty for the good idea!

[pfunk]

I have a carbon fiber conection if ya need

[emajnthis]

I notice a lot of people talking about vette's and other super cars, (I just discovered this thread about 10 minutes ago, i'm a huge motor enthusiast) and personally i have always hated the vette... until this year. When the guy from caddy took over the vette project he made everything on that car awesome, it's unbelievable. It runs a 3.6 0-60 and once it gets into the hands of the GT and LM crews they're going to throw away the cheap suspension and rebuild the car and make it into an even greater super car. Personally i can't wait to see the Japanese answer and the competitor's answers to this new breed of Corvette. I know Nissan has announced the new GT-R which is now using the VQ35 motor (yes disappointing they had to drop the RB because of emissions) or a spawn of that block (3.3? 3.7? displacement is sketchy) but it's definitely using the ATTESSA AWD system which is the best in the business and is still going to be twin turbo equipped. And then you have Ford with their GT which still has more horsepower potential because the supercharger is barely getting any work from that motor. They can easily put a shorter pulley and knock the horsepower up a whole bunch. It's a good time for the motor enthusiast because it seemed like all at once a bunch of the big name companies came out and started making super cars. I know in Japan it was because of the lifting of the gentleman's agreement, but this is almost ridiculous.

[pfunk]

I guess I dont understand the "cheap" suspension on the vette part, even my 96was the 1st year for active suspension with a computor that reads each wheel about once a foot at 60mph, forged aluminum"A" frames front "SLA" style and rear with is what race cars/super cars use, I guess you could make it coil over for easier adjustability

[reddsun1]

This just looks like a baaad idea. Well, I have issues with the new GT anyway [yeah, like my opinion matters--not like I'd ever be able to afford one anyway]. But still, this just seems DUMB. I don't remember what the chassis structure is on the new car, but the original GTs used unitized tubs, and they found out that when the roof was removed, structural stiffness was SERIOUSLY weakened. So much for learning from/being inspired by this cars heritage and history, huh? I know, this is just a concept, and this sort of thing is addressed long before production is ever thought about. But still, it seems like what will inevitably result [doesn't it make in the neighborhood of 500 lb/ft of torque?] will be some pissed off customers with 'supercars' with twisted frames.

[emajnthis]

I have to completely agree with you on that. IMHO i've never been a big fan of topless supercars, that two word phrase is a contradiction in itself (with the exception of the Carrera GT). If you're going to make a super car then sheer intelligence dictates that for structural rigidity you keep the damn top on. As for the HP numbers the GT gets about 500 hp and about 550 torque which is good, but nowhere near what it should potentially be hitting. But i guess you have to take into consideration that if it has more than that the life of the car diminishes, and you'll have to bring it into the shop every 20,000 miles like a ferrari.

[emajnthis]

Also you're right saying the "suspension" was a little to broad, it's using leaf springs which was a cheap ploy IMO consdering it's a 63,000 car (2006 ZO6).

[pfunk]

Also you're right saying the "suspension" was a little to broad, it's using leaf springs which was a cheap ploy IMO consdering it's a 63,000 car (2006 ZO6).

341365[/snapback]

A transverse mounted leaf is more exspensive then coils by far and a lighter alternative. from a packaging and manufacturing standpoint, a spring is a spring.

you might as well down the pushrod motor in it too for being a 100 year old design. If it works, works well why change it

[emajnthis]

Also you're right saying the "suspension" was a little to broad, it's using leaf springs which was a cheap ploy IMO consdering it's a 63,000 car (2006 ZO6).

341365[/snapback]

A transverse mounted leaf is more exspensive then coils by far and a lighter alternative. from a packaging and manufacturing standpoint, a spring is a spring.

you might as well down the pushrod motor in it too for being a 100 year old design. If it works, works well why change it

341370[/snapback]

That might be a little more of an opinion because coils are well known for being much lighter and cheaper than leafs, the contreversy comes with how it's setup and the fact that coils don't link directly to the axels, and a much more complex suspension system has to be built to accomodate coils (three link, four link). leafs are a much simpler design and tend to get all of the jobs done that coils do in one go, but have been known to be much heavier and more expensive. So really there's no clear winner, but IMO i would've gone with the coils, especially after building up a few cars of my own, i felt more confident with the cars stance in the corners with a coil setup. But, when it's all said and done, it all a matter of preference and opinion. I really wasn't attacking the age of the technology because i personally think the motor the vette uses (and has been using for how long now?) is quite amazing, especially stroked to 7.0 liters.

[pfunk]

actualy Im not a big defender of the pushrod engine, I just like the stimulating conversation about cars and mechanical designs and kind of a devils advocate

[bsu legato]

Speaking of pushrods, is it safe to say that GM has reached the limits of what they can do to their small block? Why else would they have to resort to bumping up the displacement from 5.7L to 6.0L and 7.0L in order gain more HP?

[pfunk]

Speaking of pushrods, is it safe to say that GM has reached the limits of what they can do to their small block? Why else would they have to resort to bumping up the displacement from 5.7L to 6.0L and 7.0L in order gain more HP?

341417[/snapback]

world products has a 454 smallblock, I allways hated building huge stroker motors, the rods start getting in the way of the camshaft, but to have 454cubes (7.4ltr) in a 600 lb fully dressed and ready for prom package is pretty exciting.

Displacement = HP without high compression (more fuel and air)

I build motors to a different aspect and more of a racing on pump fuel (93octain+),,,BUT my motors run about 170hp till 2500 rpms, then its like turning on a light switch to 500hp, no torque at low rpms and that doesnt make a good daily driver I use the semi high compression ratio (10.50:1) and a long duration camshaft to bleed of the compression at lower rpms along with a lot of aluminum parts to dissapate heat (in a nutshell)

[emajnthis]

actualy Im not a big defender of the pushrod engine, I just like the stimulating conversation about cars and mechanical designs and kind of a devils advocate

341400[/snapback]

yeh, i know what you mean. Being the devil's advocate in a conversation (even if you actually side with the persons point) helps filter the boys from the men when talking about cars.

[areaseven]

A V-8 and AWD on a Z? Nissan 450Z.

Artist's Concept Sketch of Nissan 450Z

[Stamen0083]

That's actually pretty cool. Let's see where Nissan is going with this.

Wonder what Honda has under the covers...? I hate not knowing insider information.