Seto Kaiba

No kidding... Harmony Gold's creative staff seem to be terrified of anything new or original with the series. Instead, they're playing it safe by building the "Shadow Saga" out of nothing but discarded characters, set pieces, and plot elements developed by Carl Macek for Robotech II: the Sentinels, which combined with their dreadful writing gives the whole thing the look and feel of a particularly odious fan-film. They haven't produced anything that's actually NEW since 1986, and because of that they get little-to-no respect. There's a problem with that... every poll they've conducted has shown that the overwhelming majority of Robotech fans name the Macross Saga as their favorite part of Robotech. Only a tiny percentage of the fanbase actually cares about the Robotech Masters saga or the New Generation, so they're catering to their largest group of fans they have by keeping around the tired, worn-out, lifeless remains of the Macross Saga characters. Whatever their exact words were, their intent was clear enough that Tommy and co. clearly read it as "we'd prefer not to be associated with you". Yeah, they're definitely not better off without me... but hey, if they wanna shoot themselves in the foot, they can go right ahead. I couldn't possibly be prevailed upon to care at this point... it's a sinking ship.

Last I checked, trying to start a thread in defense of Harmony Gold or Robotech there was considered trolling. It is highly illustrative of how poor Harmony Gold's understanding of their target market is... but they think they know it all, so they're just going to soldier on ahead with their ill-fated mess of a continuity. Of course, these days the average anime hobbyist considers bowdlerization and rewriting to be every bit as insulting as a slap in the balls with your own dead dog, and American animation enthusiasts are even more predisposed to loathe Robotech due to the steady encroachment of anime titles... which in the long run means that Robotech is doomed to never have more than niche appeal, because of its unique hybrid status, and its very nature as a bowdlerized rewrite of the first installment in a very popular franchise and two other shows that most of the world doesn't give a rats ass about. They've been dying a slow death since 1987, when their last viable attempt at a sequel crashed and burned. Their case against Piranha Games is sound, but utterly without value... since they've pretty much given up on Macross merchandise anyway. You're entirely correct, it is NOT a violation of my right to free speech, it's just an asinine attempt to silence someone who isn't drinking the Robotech kool-aid. Harmony Gold's preferred strategy for dealing with criticism and the harsh truth has always been to try to tell the critic that he/she does not have a valid opinion, and if they press the issue, it's a ban. In this way, they're really committing slow suicide as a franchise and as a community... they've chased away a great many of their most devoted fans and their best contributors this way... and they're continuing to do so. I was one of the few knowledgeable people left on the boards, assuming Steve doesn't restore my account's posting privileges, they're now down to one, maybe two, knowledgeable individuals... Rhade and (if he ever learns to differentiate between canon and non-canon) ShadowLogan. Like I said, it was a somewhat "earthy" interpretation... from what I gathered, Big West's answer to Harmony Gold's proposal was, in so many words, an emphatic "no thank you", though if I remember correctly (I forget whether it was Tommy or Kevin who said this) Big West didn't even want to talk to Harmony Gold, let alone try to work towards some kind of licensing agreement.

It does appear to be... I've heard it from a few people, including Kevin McKeever (though he put it in somewhat less earthy terms). For a while now I've suspected the reason they didn't crack down on Macross fansubs was to keep fans interested in Macross long enough for Harmony Gold to either propose more reasonable terms or go out of business altogether... opening the market up for a mass-release of all the thus far unreleased Macross shows.

That ain't all, kids... my posting privileges have been revoked there too, pending a response from Steve. It looks like MEMO1DOMINION and Maverick_LSC just can't handle reality intruding on their Robotech-themed fantasy world, and I'm sure MEMO didn't enjoy being outed as a fraud who doesn't know what he's talking either... still, I was quite nice about it, I even explained the rest of my analysis to Maverick in an e-mail. After listening to Maverick_LSC's "Robotech Doghouse" podcast, I have to say abusing Robotech fans must be how he blows off steam... by the sound of things, the poor guy is the textbook definition of "pussy-whipped". Based on what he's said, his wife even treats his anime hobby as something shameful that has to be hidden from their friends. That poor bastard... makes me glad my last few girlfriends have all either been as into the hobby as I am, or tried it and liked it. I was! I honestly didn't think Maverick_LSC had the stones to do something like that without a half-decent set of trumped-up charges. I'm not sure whether I should be impressed by his ability to post what he did and expect to be taken seriously, or be amused by the flimsy pretext he came up with to revoke my posting privileges. Still, see me care... it just means Robotech.com has lost one of the few remaining people who had a goddamn clue. From what I've heard, shortly after Tommy Yune became Robotech's creative director... it seems they tried to negotiate license agreements with Big West (royalties in exchange for being able to distribute Macross in the US) and Big West told 'em to go f*ck off.

Yeah, I think you're right... it was Rem who knocked up Minmei as part of the whole time-travel shenanigans, turning the entire series into one massive predestination paradox. (The sick part is that it was Carl Macek's idea, and if everything had gone according to plan, would have been animated)

Time travel shenanigans resulting from a fold accident... I forget who knocked her up though.

Be glad you didn't read the comics either... it was just UNSETTLING seeing Kyle and Edwards wrestling over a gun and having Edwards shouting about how bad Minmei is in bed.

In the comics too... the Waltrips turned her into the Pioneer Mission bicycle... every senior officer had a ride. Rick Hunter, Jonathan Wolfe, T.R. Edwards, and they confirmed that she had also been f*cking her cousin Kyle on the side... and those are just the first four she could think of.

Not that I've been able to find... of course half the time the Macross.co.jp won't even load for me. That it was taken down during the redesign of the site means nothing, the court documents which say the exact same thing are still quite accessible, and the judgments have not been reversed. Not that I've seen... there is the occasional attempt to hold Robotech II: the Sentinels and Robotech 3000 up as answers, but it doesn't really hold water since both were canceled, and Sentinels bridged the gap between two installments of the TV series. Occasionally someone tries to hold the comics and McKinney novels up as the answer too, but that falls apart on the premise that most of them are just repetitions of, or expansions upon, the TV series. Really, I guess the only things that make Robotech "unique" are the storyline edits... the magical flower fuel and all that tripe.

I have the original DVDs, and in there he shouts "This results from Protoculture?" You're mixing histories here... the "new" scenes were material that had originally been cut from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada due to broadcast standards and cultural differences (mainly gory deaths, fanservice, and partial nudity). The Robotech footage that was damaged beyond repair was the footage for the Robotech: the Untold Story movie. I haven't heard anything about the Robotech original series footage being damaged in a flood. Give him no pity... we DID forewarn him. You have a good memory for detail? It beats me why the die-hards can't even remember things like that... maybe their highly selective memories account for why they defend the series so adamantly... they can only remember the parts they liked.

To use bits of it, yes... but to build a sequel ENTIRELY out of set pieces and characters salvaged from Carl Macek's failed Robotech II: the Sentinels project? I'll be blunt here, Whamhammer, Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles was almost 100% recycled material from the old Sentinels comics, and Shadow Chronicles itself wasn't much better. Oh yes, I've lost count of the number of times Robotech fans have e-mailed me asking for my input on their insane attempts to fit Macross sequels into the Robotech universe. Unfortunately, this pattern of behavior is unlikely to stop anytime soon, because the Macross Saga is, for all practical purposes, the only part of Robotech most of the fans give a poo about, and the only part of the "original 85" they can't manipulate as they see fit. Harmony Gold is, essentially, screwed coming and going. No kidding... most anime hobbyists have no clue what Robotech fans see in Robotech, since it's a heavily bowdlerized rewrite of three unrelated shows. With frankly absurdly easy access to the original works thanks to the internet and widespread DVD distribution, the few Robotech die-hards are just clinging to a childhood memory by viewing it through some heavily rose-tinted glasses. The fans are, for the most part, deep in denial that Robotech is not an original work, and particularly that it wasn't the huge, wildly popular generational epic that Harmony Gold wants to think of it as. Of course, these days doing something as simple as pointing out that most of the anime hobbyists regard Robotech as poo not worth watching, and that the rest of the world doesn't even remember it gets you flamed by the fans and hounded across multiple sites. No, but in order for a product to succeed, it has to be something that people want. The vast majority of Robotech fans have made it abundantly clear that they don't give a toss about the Masters Saga and New Generation, they're only in it for the Macross, and Harmony Gold recognizes that... which is why virtually all of the merchandise was Macross-based, and why most of the NEW stuff is all still Macross-based. You realize that this statement is in direct contradiction with the expressed wishes of most Robotech fans, right? Very few fans profess to feel as you do. Most of them are only following RTSC because of the promise of seeing Macross characters again. It's a word-filtering thing... this site has an automatic censoring system built in. I assure you, we're still waiting for you to post a response that doesn't follow the pattern of "blatant Robotech apologist", desperately trying to defend your rose-colored memories, which really doesn't give you the right to claim the arugments of others aren't intelligent. Based on your posts, you seem to be every bit as deep in denial as the typical Robotech die-hard... in your particular case, denial of one of the most easily quantifiable aspects of Robotech fandom... that the majority of fans could care less about the Masters Saga and New Generation... they're much more interested in Macross Saga characters, mecha, and stories... to say nothing of your apparent desire to try and make Robotech out to be more than the sum of three unrelated shows glued end to end with some truly awful editing.

Glad I could help... I have a leg-up on understanding the whole legal mess, since a course in contract law and two in intellectual property law were a required part of the cognate for computer science majors back when I did my undergrad. Meticulous attention to detail doesn't hurt either. While there's no denying that initially, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross was a financial catastrophe, since the show was canceled prematurely and merchandise sold bugger-all even in Japan, Tatsunoko can probably console themselves with nearly twenty-five years of licensing revenue for Southern Cross and their other failed project, Mospeada, thanks to the worldwide distribution of both shows as part of Robotech. By the look of things, they escaped the failure of Robotech II: the Sentinels unscathed too, since that mess was bankrolled by Matchbox and Harmony Gold. What else are they supposed to do? Harmony Gold has yet to produce anything like a viable Robotech sequel, and they certainly haven't produced anything that even comes close to the quality of Macross, and the dialogue and music of the "original 85" aged about as gracefully as milk left out in the summer sun for several days. The only way Robotech fans can get quality material these days is to steal it from somewhere else... which is why we end up with crap like that, and fans "adapting" mecha from whatever show is popular into their RPGs and fanfics, and Robotech music videos made entirely from Macross visuals. While I can sort of agree with this, it doesn't really convey the gravity of the situation... Robotech isn't riding Macross's coattails... that would imply that there was someone working at Harmony Gold who was smart enough to realize Macross was quality and something to be imitated. No, Robotech is much more one of those cheap, low-quality "Made in China" imitation-brand products with a name and appearance that's suspiciously similar to a popular, high-quality brand. Were we to judge the Robotech franchise on its artistic merits alone, we would have no choice but to lump it in with Korean-made knockoffs like Space Gundam V. It's nothing new or original, just a blatant repackaging of someone else's artistic vision under a new name to make a quick buck. It is kind of ironic how when they ran out of ideas they started ripping off ideas created by their former designated rip-off artist... building a whole movie out of bits and pieces from Mospeada and the failed Robotech II: the Sentinels series.

Well, that was predictable... lots and lots of hate for Basara, and a fair bit of dislike split beween Ranka Lee, Sara Nome, and Mylene Jenius. I cast my votes for Basara and Sara... Basara for being a clueless, self-absorbed pillock, and Sara Nome for being an obnoxious and dogmatic.

It's close enough to be actionable were it a case of disputed intellectual property. You show that screen capture and concept art to someone who's never seen RTSC and they'll say "That's Louis Ducasse/Louie Nichols" without needing the caption. It's an update of the existing Louis Ducasse design, rather than a complete redesign of the existing Hikaru Ichijyo design like they did with Rick Hunter.

Um... wrong. Louie Nichols, the Robotech equivalent of Southern Cross secondary character Louis Ducasse, has rather a lot of screen time in Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and unlike "Rick Hunter", he's actually RECOGNIZABLE. We don't know that... you're asserting a hypothesis as fact. In truth, the evidence suggests that Tatsunoko owns the intellectual property rights to Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, as they were involved in the production from the very beginning, including the creation of the concepts and designs of the series. Remember the court's rationale for confirming that Tatsunoko had no claim on the Macross IP... they weren't involved in its creation. This is the reverse situation, where Tatsunoko WAS involved in the creative process from the very beginning. Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold made extensive use of Southern Cross IP in the failed Robotech II: the Sentinels series, and did use some characters from the Southern Cross series in Shadow Chronicles as well. This, given the evidence, is a MUCH more likely conclusion. Yeah... that's the main problem with MEMO1DOMINION and Maverick_LSC... they try to reinterpret statements like "we own all of Robotech" to mean "we own all of the shows that were used to make it". Some of your facts aren't facts at all... in fact most of them aren't. Do check your facts before posting, or you'll end up as bad as the people we're having so much trouble with. Big West sponsored Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, but the show was created almost entirely by Tatusnoko Productions, with mechanical design done by Tatsunoko-contracted studio Ammonite. Tatsunoko should, under the law, get both the production credit and intellectual property rights, as they did all of the animation and creative legwork (and the little creative work that was done outside Tatsunoko was done on Tatsunoko's dime). By all the evidence, Tatsunoko has every right to use and authorize the use of Southern Cross intellectual property, as its legal owners. The really revolting part of what you guys have been posting lately is that the information necessary to prove your point wrong is so piss-easy to find and understand that you all have NO excuse for this mistake.

Given that they've released Southern Cross merchandise in the past, and that they had no qualms about using Southern Cross characters in the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie, your guess is as good as mine. It could be that they wanted a consistent design aesthetic (and let's face it, Robotech's nature means that doing that limits you to one saga at a time), or just that they remembered how unpopular the Masters Saga was and resolved to avoid using the almost universally loathed mecha from it. You sure about that? Harmony Gold did release Southern Cross merchandise under the Robotech name... first with Matchbox, then with Playmates as part of their Exo-Squad line, and they're still selling merchandise (mugs, apparel, and posters) with Southern Cross characters and the Southern Cross Army logo.

Nothing gets people's attention quite like drama, eh? I wouldn't say they got their facts wrong, so much as they tried to boil the rulings down to something very short, simple, and easy for the casual reader to understand, a task that's next to impossible with court documents. That was my point, yes.

Yeah, you have a point... but there's a limit to what can be tolerated, even here. If this were all just an honest misunderstanding, or anything like an actual discussion, we wouldn't be having a problem... but it's not. What MEMO is posting is deliberate, dare I say, malicious misinformation because he doesn't want to accept reality. I couldn't even begin to guess what his reasons are for trying to exploit his status on RT.com and RTX to mislead Robotech and Macross fans, and I don't think I really want to know. That the legal debate is supposedly neverending (though in truth it ended long ago) is not grounds to excuse a willful attempt to mislead others. MEMO certainly is. It took a great deal of effort from several people to explain that the right to use the designs in merchandise doesn't mean they have the right to use the designs in animation or live-action motion pictures... and I still don't think he understands the concept. Exactly. Oh, he's not... but there's plenty of cause to suspect that he's hoping that if he kisses enough Harmony Gold ass, they'll hire him. We're talking about the people that hired Kevin McKeever... you do realize that, right?

That, my friend, is putting is MILDLY. Finding a factual basis for his argument is like finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq... it's just not gonna happen. If this were just a question of what he says here, it would be one thing... but he's been using his crackpot, fact-free argument to deliberately mislead people on multiple websites, and spread misinformation about Harmony Gold's ability to use Macross content and the obstacles to Macross licensing. If anything, we're doing the average Robotech and Macross fans a favor by pointing out the hard evidence and the blatantly flawed reasoning in MEMO's argument. Some people in the Republican party are still hoping Palin'll run for president in 2012... that's the worst joke there is. Y'know, this has been answered for you SO MANY TIMES and by SO MANY PEOPLE that there is no doubt in my mind this is just trolling on your part... nobody can possibly be this dense... the "missing puzzle that you don't have" has been handed you to so many times it's not funny. You just chose to ignore it then like you're doing now. I answered this very question for you on the previous page, and you apparently overlooked it somehow. For your convenience, here it is again: Of course, Gubaba's already answered your question AGAIN, though he took the easy way out and just quoted TakNSDAP's previous explanations, which are essentially the exact same thing I spend the better part of a week verbally bludgeoning you with over on Robotech.com. Recently? Almost nothing. They seem to have been reduced to just rubber-stamping the use of whatever Southern Cross and Mospeada intellectual property Harmony Gold needs/wants to use in the ongoing "Shadow Saga". They apparently consulted with Harmony Gold early in the production process of Shadow Chronicles, but that, and the supplying of a story consultant seem to have been the extent of their involvement. It's a far cry from their much more active role in Robotech II: the Sentinels and even Robotech 3000. I guess they just don't care anymore.

Yeah, I've had that site bookmarked for something like six months now. It still doesn't support your argument, because your argument is based around a complete misunderstanding of the hard facts of the court findings and other materials. It's no stretch to classify his "contributions" as trolling, that's for sure. This latest batch of posts looks to be nothing more than him picking links posted by other, far more knowledgeable contributors and reposting them to make himself look like he isn't completely talking out of his arse. Yes, it is. Unfortunately, there are some who just aren't prepared to accept the truth, and so they put enormous effort into trying to deny that truth. Not just that, but the story, the core concepts of the series, and most of the rest of the stuff too... which is why the courts confirmed that Tatsunoko had no claim on that intellectual property.

Oh good grief... MEMO comes among us again, having added a poorly-written Wikipedia article to his complete and total ignorance of the law, the rights involved, and the court rulings, thinking that it proves something other than that he's a self-deluding twit who doesn't know what he's talking about. For your edification, MEMO, the 2002 court ruling affirmed that because Tatsunoko was not involved in the project when the copyrighted intellectual property (character and mceha designs) were created, those copyrighted designs are owned by Big West, and that Big West is the sole party able to utilize those those designs. To put it bluntly, MEMO, Big West is the sole holder of ALL the rights to those designs under copyright law... including both the author's rights and economic rights. The 2003 court ruling found that Tatsunoko had the production copyright on the footage itself... the economic rights associated with being the "maker", but not the moral rights associated with being the "author". This does not trump, contradict, or in any way alter the scope of Big West's copyrights on those mecha designs. It does not give Tatsunoko ownership of those designs, or the right to use that copyrighted intellectual property in any way. The only rights Tatsunoko has to those designs are those specifically granted to them by Big West under contract... namely, the international merchandising rights (excluding Japan). Tatsunoko never owned the intellectual property rights to those designs, and thus CANNOT give those rights to Harmony Gold, and certainly cannot authorize the use of that copyrighted intellectual property for the live-action movie. Now MEMO, if you don't understand what you're talking about, and believe me EVERYONE can see that you don't, please keep your yap shut. It's a mystery to me what you think you're going to accomplish by continuing this crusade of ignorance and denial... the only people who will be convinced by your factless argument are those who just don't want to accept the truth that Harmony Gold cannot and will not use Macross designs in anything other than merchandise. I would agree with Gubaba that you're just destroying your own credibility, but after your recent antics, I don't think you really have any left to damage.

Dunno why you're invoking my name... I didn't really have any use for the animated series in its original format, and certainly not after 4Kids got done making a Macekre out of it. I did follow the manga for the first few volumes, back when the main character could best be described as a sadistic, supernaturally-empowered, schizophrenic serial killer-slash-vigilante who makes Death Note's Light Yagami look like a model of mental health. For a while it was mildly diverting watching him subject anyone who crossed him a harrowing supernatural game of strategy they had no chance of winning, and then torturing, mutilating, or murdering them when they lost. (No surprises that when they animated that part, it got left out of the US release... there was just no way for 4Kids to make the mass-murdering sociopath of a protagonist kid-friendly)

Not surprising... Space Station Liberty IS the unofficial propaganda mouthpiece of Harmony Gold after all. As is typical with this, he half-assed his research. That's par for the course with Robotech die-hards though, and Chris Meadows (Robotech Master) is definitely a die-hard. It's not like this'll damage Harmony Gold's rep any more than it already has. Battletech fans have hated Harmony Gold since the 90's, because of the original "unseen mecha" lawsuit, and most mecha anime enthusiasts on the various websites scattered around the net hate them either for bastardizing Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, or for keeping Macross sequels out of western markets. Really, their reputation was already poo, and this is just more crap being heaped atop an already mountainesque dunghill.

Ah, the unofficial Harmony Gold propaganda division swings into action. I posted a comment there, clarifying some of his more obvious fartups. I really should make a point to attend the next Space Station Liberty session with McKeever and drop a few bombshells.

We'll know soon enough... someone asked that exact question on RT.com's Production forum (the one where Kevin McKeever hangs out), so he'll answer soon, if he hasn't already.