Seto Kaiba

Y'know, if they had actually pursued that route and tried to quantify spirita scientifically like they did with the fold-wave stomach flu (v-type bacteria/virus?), I probably would've liked Macross 7 a lot more, but all we really got was (´ﾟ∀ﾟ)つ IT IS DELICIOUS SPIRITUAL ENERGY YOU MUST EAT IT, and no further explanation that that. I don't think you can really go that route with spirita or the v-type bacteria since they're both supposedly naturally-occurring, non-technological macguffins. It doesn't really address my core concern, that there really is no ongoing threat in the main continuity like there is in Macross II. By the end of the series, the alien menace has seen the errors of its ways, packed up, and shipped off to Unspecifiedistan, never to be seen again. While there are, at least in theory, hundreds upon hundreds of Zentradi fleets still hunting the Supervision Army across the galaxy, they all seem to have gone on holiday and haven't troubled humanity since. The ongoing Zentradi threat is one of the aspects I love best about the Macross II universe... the Zentradi and Meltrandi don't just fade into history. They're still a very real, recurring threat clear through to 2082, with at least three more major invasions that decimate the U.N. Spacy's forces, and a whole host of minor skirmishes. It really drives home the significance of the Zentradi threat, the mind-boggling scope of the Protoculture's fall, and the relative insignificance of humanity in the grand scheme of things... to say nothing of the power of music, and the importance of compromise, understanding, etc. It doesn't hurt my feelings any that the prequels gave Komilia the spotlight as an adult, or that they showed the U.N. Spacy while it was still picking up the pieces in the wake of Space War 1, two things that main-continuity Macross never really did. Heck, come to think of it, the VF-4 getting the spotlight was pretty damn cool too.

It made sense to me too, at least from a practical standpoint... I do wish Kawamori had been a bit truer to the themes of the original with Macross Plus and the shows that followed it, and I REALLY wish he'd thought twice about Macross 7, but I certainly don't resent him for doing what he did. He had his own story he wanted to tell, with its own particular merits. So instead of a non-canon movie, we have a second, essentially self-contained parallel universe (ala Gundam's AU titles) with its own history and everything, and I'm totally fine with that. There are some who aren't, but hey, everybody's entitled to their opinion. Like I said, my problem with the main continuity's use of song as a weapon isn't the song itself, it's the various flavors of magic attached to it in later generation Macross shows... like Macross 7's spirita, the fold wave-emitting stomach flu from Macross Frontier, or whatever goddamn voodoo Sara used to levitate rocks in her birthday suit in Macross Zero. That and the fact that once they've bested an enemy with the magical song power du jour, the threat is neutralized once and for all... the aliens usually just pack up and leave. The only potentially recurring threat left is the Zentradi, and they were demoted to comic relief status starting in Macross 7. So much for "1000 fleets still roaming the galaxy"... That's one of the things I really love about the Macross II continuity... the Zentradi and the Meltrandi are still a very real threat to humanity, what with the major and minor fleet engagements every few years from 2010 to 2055, at least one of which did horrendous near-SW1-level damage to the U.N. Spacy, and a couple more after that.

Personally, I would prefer to keep Macross II as far removed from the main continuity's various flavors of pseudo-magical singing as humanly possible. Let it be its own universe, and maybe they'll revisit it and flesh it out more once they run out of evil aliens for humanity to militarily neuter and then befriend with song in the main continuity.

Actually, they're not that difficult to understand at all. The concepts involved are fairly simple, it's just that any attempt to accurately explain how it all fits together turns into a small novel by the time you're done. As to why Big West can't distribute Macross products in the west, that's actually not a direct result of the litigation at all... while Big West and Tatsunoko were fighting it out in the courts, Harmony Gold went and got a trademark on the name "Macross" in the US, Canada, UK, and Germany. So, in order for new Macross stuff to be released on those regions, the distributor who licensed the show would have to get permission from Harmony Gold to use that trademarked name. Big West apparently takes a dim view of that, so here we are. That's why we haven't had any more Macross releases since Macross Plus. It's also been suggested that the music royalties for a heavily music-driven show like Macross 7 and/or Macross Frontier would also be an obstacle.

Compiling the court documents we have into a simple, itemized list: 25 February 2002 Ruling (Studio Nue owns the 41 disputed designs) http://www.courts.go.jp/search/jhsp0030?ac...mp;hanreiKbn=06 02 October 2002 Appeal (Tatsunoko's appeal of the above - rejected) http://www.courts.go.jp/search/jhsp0030?ac...mp;hanreiKbn=06 20 January 2003 Ruling (Tatsunoko owns economic rights to Ep1-36) (Dug up for me by Talos) http://www.courts.go.jp/search/jhsp0030?ac...mp;hanreiKbn=06 25 September 2003 Appeal (Studio Nue's appeal of the above - rejected) http://www.courts.go.jp/search/jhsp0030?ac...mp;hanreiKbn=06 01 July 2004 Ruling (Tatsunoko's demand for restitution against Big West & Bandai - rejected) http://www.courts.go.jp/search/jhsp0030?ac...mp;hanreiKbn=06 27 October 2005 Appeal (Tatsunoko's appeal of the above - rejected) http://www.courts.go.jp/search/jhsp0030?ac...mp;hanreiKbn=06

No, the dates are wrong, those are dated 1 July 2004, 27 October 2005, and 2 October 2002 respectively... the dates we're looking for are 20 January 2003 (平成15年01月20日) and 25 September 2003 (平成15年09月25日). I'm just skimming these, but the first one seems to be one of Tatsunoko's rejected attempts to seek restitution from Big West and Bandai Visual for subsequently produced Macross shows, which the courts naturally shot down. The second is (apparently) Tatsunoko's appeal of the previously mentioned ruling (also rejected). The third is apparently Tatsunoko's appeal of the 2002 ruling (also rejected).

Actually, I'm pretty sure That's a report on Studio Nue's appeal of the 20 January 2003 court ruling (upheld by Tokyo High Court on 25 September 2003) where they established that Tatsunoko owned the economic rights to the footage, but that Big West's copyrights on the intellectual property were separate. I'd look it up for myself, but the machine I'm currently using has no Eastern language support, so the text on the court webpage comes out as a stream of unreadable tokenized gibberish. I've got the text for the 2002 ruling bookmarked again, but I lost my bookmark for the 2003 ruling when my machine died... so if someone could dig it up for me, I'd really appreciate it. (if it helps, as I said, the ruling at district court level was dated 1/20/2003, and upheld by the high court on 9/25/2003). EDIT: Yep, that's the report on the Supreme Court shooting down Studio Nue's appeal of the 2003 ruling.

Yes, I am. The courts most definitely shot down Tatsunoko's claims of having rights to Macross derivatives, and their attempt to claim ownership of the Macross "brand" as well. As such, Big West does not have to go through Tatsunoko for licensing of Macross derivatives, and they don't have to give them a cut of the profits either... thought they ARE obligated to share profits obtained from sales of the original series in the domestic (Japan) market. The "certain rights" that the courts found Tatsunoko DID own were (specifically) those rights they had been given under the terms of their contract with Big West (namely, the international film distribution and merchandising rights, excluding Japan), and the economic rights to the footage of the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series (while at the same time making it perfectly clear that Tatsunoko's copyright on the footage did not extend to the copyrighted intellectual property created by Big West for the series).

*facedesk* Yeah, I'd noticed a few Macross II-isms in the glossary sheets, but I'm after something a bit more substantial than that. (Also, yes, the romanization is "GERWALKroid")

I really enjoyed Macross II: Lovers Again. It's one of my favorite Macross titles. The six-episode OVA format was definitely too short for the show's creators to fully realize the story, so it gets a bit rushed towards the end. Nevertheless, it was the last Macross show to really carry on the themes and tone of the original series and DYRL. For me, the prequels are also particularly interesting, since they depict what I feel is a more believable post-SW1 Macross universe where the Zentradi and Meltrandi still pose a very real threat. The universe as a whole is influenced a bit more strongly by Gundam than the "main continuity", which I think actually works pretty well for the story. Mikimoto's character designs for the series were, I think, some of his best work (and I think he particularly liked the flightsuits he did for the prequels, since he keeps reusing them in main-timeline Macross manga). The mechanical designs done by Koichi Ohata, Kazumi Fujita, and co. are my favorite designs in all of Macross... particularly the VF-2SS Valkyrie II. Really, I think the biggest factors going against Macross II were that it was following on from Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which for many fans is the Macross gold standard, and that because of that, the average story was not as well-received as it would've been otherwise. 'course, I've put a lot of time and effort into digging up all the esoterica about the Macross II alternate universe, since the English-language publications really didn't cover most of the interesting stuff. For a while now I've been working on a website to collect all that rare and little-known information into a single, comprehensive reference collection covering the entire alternate universe. It's still a ways from being complete, but thanks to the MW community, I've made some great strides over the past year or so. (I've also put in a bit of work for the Macross Mecha Manual's Macross II section)

Um... there's a lot of things wrong with what you've posted here... that's not what the courts concluded at all. In fact, that's the exact opposite of what the courts found. It's true that Harmony Gold's attempts to bar Macross merchandise from the US in 1999-2000 were a major factor in starting the whole legal battle between Big West and Tatsunoko, but the courts ruled that Tatsunoko has no control over Macross derivatives (sequels, prequels, etc.). They aren't entitled to a cut of international sales, or anything else like that. The problem is that while the courts were sorting the whole thing out, Harmony Gold had gone and filed for a trademark on the name "Macross" in the US, Canada, UK, and Germany... and THAT is what's keeping Macross products out of the hands of western audiences right now. As far as Tatsunoko goes, the courts found that their rights were limited to the rights they'd been given by Big West under contract (international film distribution and merchandising rights for the original series excluding Japan), and the economic rights to the original series (but not to the Big West-owned intellectual property used in it).

Palladium's tried a few times to merge the designs of the VF-1 and non-Macross mecha for the various editions of their Robotech RPG. The end result is usually too painful the look at, both because the design is hideous, and because the quality of the art is generally abysmal. I remember their "VF-1V Vindicator" (the horrible bastard offspring of a VF-1 and a AFC-01), and Harmony Gold's own attempts to give the Inbit/Invid a transforming fighter with a VF-1-esque transformation... the Invid Overlord.

Given Harmony Gold's past behavior and the current bad blood between the two companies, I really don't see anything objectionable about them taking the necessary steps to ensure that their property remains out of Harmony Gold's hands.

That seems to be his default means of trying to dismiss anything we say that disagrees with his particular worldview. Nah, they've been doing that for decades already, they don't need outside help... the continuation novels, the various spinoff comics and the long-running Sentinels comics, and now Prelude and Shadow Chronicles itself. Harmony Gold just doesn't have the artistic integrity to let those characters go. They've built every major attempt to continue the series (except one) around them, and they depend on those few, tired, overused characters to sell the remainder of the "Shadow Saga", assuming it ever gets made. If they did get rid of those characters, the majority of the tiny, fragmented Robotech fanbase would have no reason to keep watching.

No kidding... though Mylene can sure give her a run for her money. What letter's she up to now? G? *sigh* Yet another issue with no Macross II content... what gives?

What were you expecting, scientific accuracy? This is Robotech we're talking about... a desperate (and by all accounts alcohol-fueled) attempt to make a good show (Macross) long enough to syndicate by tacking a mediocre show (Mospeada) and a god-awful show (Southern Cross) to the back end of it using nothing but dialogue. If the cast interviews are anything to go by, a fair bit of the writing was done marathon style IN the studio while recording was taking place. It's not like you have to look very hard to find inaccuracies like that... admittedly I do find the "flowering plants emitting spores AND seeds" to be at least a bit more troubling than things like Earth's SIXTH lagrange point... The problem is that Kevin is NOT a public relations agent... he's their marketing director. As anyone who's got experience dealing with marketeers will tell you, marketing is the use of fraud and deception to sell trash to idiots. Naturally, he's not too concerned with customer satisfaction, after all... that's not what his job's about. His job is to make sure that their products don't get a negative reputation, and to ensure that the customers keep buying... and portraying complainers as frothy-mouthed Robotech-haters DOES work to an extent. If other viewers don't take the complaints seriously, they'll be more inclined to buy the products being complained-about. That certainly hasn't stopped Carl Macek from arrogantly claiming to have "improved" Macross with the addition of god-awful voice acting, music, and a dreadful new plot that ties it into one of the worst examples of 80's anime. You could make an excellent case for his ONLY attempt to create a new show from the ground up as being a monumental failure that was mainly his fault... the cancellation of Robotech 3000 may have been blamed on Netter Digital, but there's no mistaking who was calling the shots on the production of the teaser trailer that went over like a lead-filled balloon... Carl Macek. You can't really call Robotech II: the Sentinels an original effort, since that was, by any fair definition, just a show made using set pieces from Macross and Southern Cross, and mixed with heavy doses of Star Trek, and of course nobody would dare claim that the Robotech: the Untold Story movie was original (for the obvious reasons). Yeah, they COULD do that, but they won't. They've proven pretty conclusively that they're terrified of doing anything that isn't strictly related to the existing 85-episode series, for fear that the fans will crucify it like they did Robotech 3000. If it happens, it'll happen because Warner Bros took charge. Oddly, this is the exact argument used by the die-hard fans of the original Robotech series to criticize Shadow Chronicles. Personally, I disagree... I think that a changing of the guard (as it were) is a good thing every now and then... especially if the show's creative directors have run out of ideas (Carl Macek), have died (Gene Roddenberry), or just can't be arsed (Kawamori on Macross II). (I realize full well that I'm going to hell for lumping Carl Macek together with people who can actually write in any context) It gives the franchise the chance to pursue new angles... but only if you get a decent set of writers, designers, etc. who know what they're bloody well doing. Macross had that with Macross II (though the show kept a few of the old guard and its biggest sin was perhaps sticking TOO close to the themes of the original), Star Trek had it for a while with the latter half of The Next Generation and most of Deep Space 9 before everything went snoop-the-loopy with Voyager and Enterprise... but Robotech never did. The changing of the guard took the show out of the hands one one terminally inept man who couldn't write new material at all and gave it to a somewhat less inept man who doesn't know how to write new sci-fi material at all.

The ones listed here: http://web.archive.org/web/20020803190522/...ents/index.html Central characters, mechanical designs, and insignia from the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series.

Okay, enough of the Harmony Gold apologist attitude... it's really becoming obnoxious. I don't know what it is with Robotech fans, but whenever they see anything that resembles legitimate criticism, they get their panties in a bunch and start trying to make it look like everybody BUT them is being an irrational twit. Is it really any surprise that Big West doesn't want to work with Harmony Gold, given Harmony Gold's track record of trying to screw its business partners over and blaming them for everything that goes wrong (Netter Digital, GameTek, the various comic licensees), and their generally belligerent and borderline illegal behavior towards importers of Macross goods in the past? Harmony Gold made asses of themselves, and now they're dealing with the results of their actions... it's as simple as that.

Or like having the main fighter in service completely replaced by a far less capable one for no adequately explored reason... hey wait a tic... (That still didn't stop Tommy from designing a new fighter from a previously unmentioned base in the outer solar system, by the way) Yeah, well, that's MEMO for you. He's a long-time follower of the "if you can't dazzle them with your knowledge, baffle them with your bullshit" school of debate. He isn't just trying to hold Tommy accountable for every casual remark made during that informal event either... he's also putting rather a lot of words into Tommy's mouth. Still, there're a few people left who'll continue the battle against MEMO and Maverick's ignorant bullshit. Yeah, that's MEMO... what does he care about rules, so long as he can make his bullshit claims and stop people from refuting them.

It doesn't just "sound" that way, it IS that way. At least, that's what the ratings, the merchandise sales, and the Robotech.com user polls. If those results are anything to go by, the vast majority of Robotech fans and casual viewers don't give a tinker's damn about any part of Robotech other than the Macross Saga. Because Harmony Gold's track record has provided ample proof that they can't write original material to save their souls, and what little they've managed to produce appears to be selling primarily due to its loose association with the "original" Robotech TV series. If they didn't have that association, nobody would care about their decidedly sub-par products.

While I agree with the overall sentiment that Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles's faults largely had nothing to do with the absence of Macross characters, I do think it bears mentioning that the presence of one Macross Saga character (Rick Hunter) was one of the movie's main selling points, and figured prominently in the pre-release hype. Why is the Robotech name valuable? It isn't... at least not in any artistic sense. Its primary value these days is as a way to milk the original Macross series for more money, and ensure they'll profit from any stateside Macross releases. Most people don't even remember what Robotech is, and the few that do tend to regard it with scorn and derision. The networks which still carry Robotech almost exclusively have it in nosebleed timeslots like 7am Saturday, when nobody in their right mind is going to be awake to watch it, and Shadow Chronicles certainly didn't set the world on fire. As so many of us have pointed out in the past, Harmony Gold's creative staff just doesn't have what it takes to make their own, original content, and they know it. They've only lasted this long by continually recycling content from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, and occasionally the failed Robotech II: the Sentinels series. Every attempt at trying something new has been met with scorn and often outright disgust (Robotech 3000) because their entire creative process is imitative rather than innovative. The only thing that ever changes about it is what show they're trying to imitate. For Robotech II: the Sentinels it was Star Trek, for Robotech 3000 it was ReBoot and Roughnecks: the Starship Troopers Chronicles, and for Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles it was Battlestar Galactica. (I won't get into what the comics are imitating, since that changes almost from issue to issue, and covers too many titles). Introducing new characters seems to be about the limit of their creative ability... and even then those characters are often utterly generic, shallow stocks whose appeal depends mainly on their arbitrary relation to some character from the "original 85". The best they've done for original mechanical designs are some robotic equivalents of well-known animals (saber-toothed tigers) and minor variations on established designs (like the "Super Shadow Fighter" and "Synchro Beta"). Ford Riley was the ONLY freelancer in that list... Frank Agrama is Harmony Gold's CEO, and Steve Yun, Tommy Yune, and Tom Bateman (are/were) regular Harmony Gold salaried staff.

I was only counting the "creative" staff, not the voice actors (who ARE freelancers).

Yes, NORMALLY that is the case... but Robotech is atypical in that the vast majority of the "creative" staff are full-time Harmony Gold employees. Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles's story was conceived by Tommy Yune, Tom Bateman, and Steve Yun, with a screenplay by Frank Agrama and Ford Riley, with the character and mechanical designs done in large measure by Tommy Yune... the only person on that list who isn't a full-time HG employee is Ford Riley.

A best-seller? Maybe for a Robotech show, but certainly not by anyone else's standards. and then, everyone was trolled.

I think the general reason most people assume/imply that the Zentradi had the Supervision Army is that Macross 7 established that the Protodeviln were the ones who created and controlled the Supervision Army by spirita-draining the protoculture they encountered, and that they had been sealed away hundreds of thousands of cycles prior to 2009. That Vrlitwhai would have his entire fleet pursuing just one Supervision Army gun destroyer would certainly seem to imply that their war had deteriorated into more of a mop-up operation.