Druna Skass

Either way I'm getting really tired of this elementary school playground bull crap. If I wanted to deal with this kind kiddy crap I'd go to some Gundam Wing board or something. Where the hell are the mods around here... This isn't just directed at you Jemstone, this is directed at everyone. So don't think I'm ganging up on you too.

Are you talking the first war or the second war? Either way both occations the Alliance had no knowledge that Archangel or Freedom were even at Orb. Hence it never factored into the Alliance's plans. I'm trying to look at this situation the way the Alliance's high command would look at it. How does the argument that if Orb goes scorched earth neither the Alliance or ZAFT gets them as an ally, not make sence? Let look at it, Orb destorys it's own R&D facilites, it's gone now, not in the hands of the Alliance or ZAFT. Neither sides can collaborate with Orb to fight the other side. "like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds. It's not a rational action." So are you saying it would take ALL of the Alliance's resources to occupy Orb? As I said before even with Freedom and Archangel there, they can only do so much, they can't be at several places at once. If you don't think numbers can't be a big factor just go look at WW2. The Earth Alliance is made up of five big superstates, it would take a fraction of their resources to take Orb.

There it is, it's all right there, what I've been trying to say for the past, what five posts? All in one pretty package.

So why do you keep biting the bait? If they're just trying to start sh!t with you, then be the bigger person and ignore them.

It shouldn't have taken long for Orb to rebuild it's military, all the vital stuff and personel like Erica Simmoms were loaded on the Kusanagi. Yeah you can go by the anime, but mangas tend to reveal a lot of stuff too. Just because we don't see anything in the anime better than a Murasame doesn't mean they don't have anything. If you went by just the anime, you'd have no idea the Astray Gundams even existed or that it was Lowe's group that repaired the Archangel. So whether or not Orb has something else or not is open to specuation. We're not getting a definitive answer just going off the anime. Orb could go scorched earth again that's true, why do you think the Alliance didn't use force as their first option. So what if Orb goes scorched earth, yeah the Alliance doesn't get them, but neither does ZAFT. Even though it fell, Orb was still a major player at the end of the war. The Kusanagi provided the Three Ships Alliance with just about all their mobile suits. Kusanagi can carry much more mobile suits than Archangel can. So speaking of a wider war, it would be nice to either have them as allies or eliminate them. Why go after them without a guarunteed big pay off? I already told you, they would still get a pay off (Orb as an ally or eliminated as a potential threat) for little cost. Just because coordinators were leaving Orb for PLANT does not mean there aren't engineers there carrying on their work. What does the ability to transform buy you? What does it buy a Valkyrie?

So we've got a concensus then, this movie is going to suck donkey balls.

You are not getting what I am saying, and no I am not mixing it up. Those events are linked, you can't talk about Destiny without mentioning what happend in the first war. Otherwise how can you even explain the current situation of why they're scared of the Alliance? I'm not saying Orb has any advantage over either ZAFT or the Alliance in Destiny. We can all agree that Orb has the potential to make powerful weapons right? They've done it before, right? Now in Destiny, wouldn't it be a reasonable inferrece that they could stil make good weapons? So what if they don't currenty have a Gundam, maybe they had no incentive to build one until now. As side from the stolen ones the Alliance has no Gundams. Orb had no counter to Calamity and the other suits because they were busy building up thier military with M1s and didn't even know those suits existed until they stopped for a visit. Or are you telling me that in two years they just went retarded and the best they can come up with is the Murasame? Back in the last war Uzumi was in charge, he had no problem making weapons, but Cagali who was running things for awhile did. Now here's a small country, but they have the capability to develop good weapons, wouldn't take too much effort to take over. Agreed right? Now this country could potentialy work with the enemy and produce some powerful units, right? They've done it before, right? So why not take it over, and not only do they not work with they enemy, but now work with us? The Alliance know's Orb's potential, and they want to secure that potential for themselfs. Since it didn't take much effort, why pass on the chance to make them an ally? I never said it would be a guarunteed big pay off, but it's not like the Alliance lost anything bringing them into the fold.

Diffrence of opinion, fine, no point to beating that horse to death... It could be the case that Carpentaria still had a lot of forces left, but I don't think the Alliance would leave their rear exposed like that, while they're transffering the bulk of thier forces into space. Most likely it was depleated to the point where it could do much aside from defend itself. It would be stupid to leave your rear guard exposed like that. The only reasonable conclusion left is that Carpentaria's forces were depleted and the Alliance didn't want to waste time when they had bigger fish to fry. There's no mention of a mass driver at Carpentaria on the Official site. Though it did say somewhere the best place for a mass driver is along the equator, and Carpentaria is not exactly on the equator. True I don't know if Kluze was the only one there, but I don't think those subs can hold too many suits, 4 underwater and most likely 4 or 5 standard suits. Victoria and Orb aren't exactly next door neighbors. We see suits like those Guntank things and BCUEs at Victoria, those are big units that wouldn't be easy to transport. Remeber there was a lot of planning behind Split-Break. Not exactly a rapid response force. ZAFT still had a precence in Africa. I said the Cyclopse took a huge chunk out of ZAFT's ass, I never said it wiped out all their Earth forces. But they certainly had far less to play with, obviously that had an impact since this sizable force couldn't beat back the Alliance.

Stratigic location is a posibility. Though when it comes to making powerful weapons Orb knows what it's doing. The Izumo-class battleships, Gold Frame Amuterasu, the first five Gundams. Orb indirctly had a hand with the Strike Daggers (being GMs of the Strike Gundam), the Archangel-class and possibly even the three new Gundams. Even ZAFT has to thank Orb for something, Orb is indirectly linked to Freedom and Justice. Imagine Freedom and Justice with no phase shift and no beam weapons. The some of the engineers who worked on the Archangel-class most likly fled to PLANT. Why do you think Minvera shares a lot of the same technology and design elements of the Archangel-class, when ZAFT never got thier hands on the ship. Minvera definatly looks closer to the Archangel-class than the Nazca-class. Right now without Orb helping them, the most the Alliance has are Windams and refitted Agamemnon, Nelson, and Drake-class ships. Right now we don't know who is responsible for Girty Lue. If it wasn't Orb, then it was most likly technology dreived from things Orb had a hand in making. The Alliance and ZAFT aren't after Orb the country they're after Orb the weapons developer. You're mixing up GSD now with GS. Yes, Orb developed gundams, and BB in GS. What have they done lately? Nothing. Murasame = Zaku = Windam. We're talking about mass produced MS only. Do you see Orb fielding a better mass produced MS? Ok, so in GSD, we're agreed that technology is about equal. No. If you want to talk about weapons development, that's largely a function of having Coordinators in Orb, if those go away, there goes the advantage for the Alliance. Besides that, the newest Gundams are developed in ZAFT. It doesn't matter if the guys used to be Orb citizens, in the GSD time frame, those guys are on PLANT, not Orb. So, if the primary weapons developer in Orb were coordinators, Alliance derives no benefit from picking up Orb, because they end up throwing out the coordinators. Finally, you can't assume a prototype model will be a mass production variant. If that was the case, ZAFT would be rife with Freedoms, and the new prototype gundams. EA would be flooded with the GAT series, and Orb would have all their Astrays turned into one of the five original gundams. It's a issue with cost. No I'm not mixing it up, what's going on with Orb stems from what happed in the last war. You can't talk about them without mentioning the last war. It'll be like talking about Iraq, without mentioning 9-11. I never said the primary developers were coordinators, I only said some of the engineers from Orb went to PLANT. For all we know right now the people most responsible for Orb's part in the GAT-X project are still there. In times of war if someone you don't like has an ability you want you make them work for you regardless. The Nazis forced a group of Jews to make counterfeits for them. The Alliance could force those coordinators to work on mobile weapons for them. So the Alliance would most likely hold hostage their families and force them to work as opposed to kicking them out. The EA was flooded with the GAT series, they had mass production variants of the Strike, Duel, and Buster. I'm not saying those Gundams themselfs would be mass produced but the technology implemented in them. The Duel/Long Dagger had the Fortresta Armor and the Buster Dagger used the gunlauncher and beam rifle from the Gundam. And they still are flooded with the GAT series, the Dagger Ls and the Windams both use the Strike's mission pack technology. Untill we see more in the mangas or what not, we really don't know what Orb has, Gold Frame Amutrasu and the Izumo only appeared in the manga.

That's likely, I mean you'd expect the UN to call in reinforcements from the colonies if they knew they couldn't hold back the Marduk. Though on the other hand Earth could have tried to keep the colonies out of it to hide them from the Marduk.

Stratigic location is a posibility. Though when it comes to making powerful weapons Orb knows what it's doing. The Izumo-class battleships, Gold Frame Amuterasu, the first five Gundams. Orb indirctly had a hand with the Strike Daggers (being GMs of the Strike Gundam), the Archangel-class and possibly even the three new Gundams. Even ZAFT has to thank Orb for something, Orb is indirectly linked to Freedom and Justice. Imagine Freedom and Justice with no phase shift and no beam weapons. The some of the engineers who worked on the Archangel-class most likly fled to PLANT. Why do you think Minvera shares a lot of the same technology and design elements of the Archangel-class, when ZAFT never got thier hands on the ship. Minvera definatly looks closer to the Archangel-class than the Nazca-class. Right now without Orb helping them, the most the Alliance has are Windams and refitted Agamemnon, Nelson, and Drake-class ships. Right now we don't know who is responsible for Girty Lue. If it wasn't Orb, then it was most likly technology dreived from things Orb had a hand in making. The Alliance and ZAFT aren't after Orb the country they're after Orb the weapons developer.

Yet the ZAFT regulars took down Panama after the loss at Alaska when arguably, the Alliance was more powerful at Panama with their MS. I'm sorry, that line of argument doesn't hold water. The EMP was a fast way to win, you had no obvious way of showing that EA was winning at Panama before the use of EMP. Azrael's trio is cancelled out by Freedom/Justice. No, ZAFT's presence would've made a big difference because Orb was overwhelmed by numbers. With ZAFT around, that would not have happened. If you turn around and say that the trio would just focus on normal suits, then so could the Freedom and Justice, and you'd still end up with a bloody draw. You need to properly define what you mean by equal terms. Because if it's technology, then Orb makes no difference to either ZAFT or EA in the grander scheme of things. If it's military, then no one would've used the EA will wipe out Orb argument. And Cagalli would've had a stronger come back against that line of reasoning. Azrael, if Orb asked for help from ZAFT, they would've had indications of aggressive EA moves ahead of time. Remember, you can't just have a fleet of warships magically appear off your coast with no warning. ZAFT may be capable, because they could theoretically deploy a entire fleet of MS carrying subs right off of Orb. But EA is centered on surface carriers from what we see. So, we're not talking about two days of fighting, we're talking about much longer time frame when EA is deploying. EA doesn't have limitless forces, to effectively take over Orb, they have to draw down somewhere. And if ZAFT is able to expand resources helping those refugees in the Suez region, then I'm sure they can find ways to help Orb if an alliance was in the offing. Azreal already said most of what I wanted to. Anyway, how about the fact that until the EMP was deployed the GINNs were getting their asses handed to them by the Daggers, I seem to recall one GINN getting it's arms cut off then out of nowhere impaled by three Daggers before he could even react to losing his arms. I don't have a doubt the Alliance would have driven off ZAFT from Panama if it wasn't for their EMP. As Asrael said earlier, the Cyclopse really took a massive chunck out of ZAFT's ass. They weren't even able to hold on to Victoria, meaning it wouldn't be long until they'd have to deal with an Alliance space fleet reinforced with Daggers built in factories on Earth. That's obviously something ZAFT would not want. The fact they didn't attack Australia could indicate that Carpentaria was depleated to the point where the Alliance didn't see them as a real threat at the moment. Even with Freedom and Justice, since ZAFT wouldn't be able to muster a sizable force to counter the Alliance, the Alliance would have taken Orb though sheer weight of numbers. Two suits can only cover so much area, with the Gundam trio tying them up, that would leave the hordes of Daggers free to deal with the M1s and do what they need to do to secure the island. No matter how powerful Freedom is, it can't be at two places at the same time, nor does it have something like Jehuty's Zero Shift in ZOE2. What I mean by equal terms? Orb is not leaps and bounds beyond the Alliance or ZAFT. Windams, Murasames, and ZAKUs are on fairly even terms, no more tank against mobile suit. As I said earlier, the Alliance probably doesn't want those two to work togeather. Especialy since Orb developed the Izumo-class which lead to the Archangel-class, and Orb played a big role developing the first Gundams. Before taking Orb in Destiny, the Alliance has no idea what Orb has. If you were a member of the Alliance high command would you be happy with the idea of ZAFT getting the Gold Frame Amuterasu and mass producing it? Or Orb and ZAFT working togeather to create and even more potent suit?

I don't know about you, but that plane looks like a flying pancake to me.

dang, you want a dictionary definition of a troll post? just look at hers. Everyone was just having a discussion about the movie untill #itchstone came along and threw a hissy fit and tried to pick a fight with me. claiming I"M the one "trying to start a flame war". whatta dope.. Man, with all the childish name calling going on in here now, it's starting to look like a Macross 7 thread after Keith's big head starts telling everyone else they're wrong and he's right.

ZAFT wouldn't have been able to do much to help ORB in that last war. The Cyclopes system that was installed at Alaska took out a lot of their Earth forces, they only took out Panama because they had that EMP device. I don't think ZAFT regulars would have lasted long against Azrael's Gundam trio anyway. Even the Strike Daggers were supirior to the GINN. In Destiny, Orb is more or less on even terms with the Alliance and ZAFT. The Alliance would not want Orb and ZAFT working togeather. It's not so much bringing them into the Alliance but more like keeping them out of ZAFT. Let's go back to the Singapore and U.S. analogy. I don't think they U.S. would want Singapore woking togeather and shareing it's technology with Iraq or North Korea.

I get those books for the pretty pictures...

I ain't impressed until I see that person transform.

Sure it's small but in terms of technology and scientific know-how they at least on the same level of the Alliance. Look at the upgraded Gold Frame, you do not want to screw with that unit and it's upgrades were carried out by Orb. In the last war the Izumo-class was second only to the Archangel-class. Sure Lowe had his computer helping him, but he was still a Natural piloting a mobile suit long before the Alliance got their Daggers rolling out and Kira creating the OS for Orb. What the Alliance wants is their technological ability, not nessesarily their military capability.

It came from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. This isn't a research paper so I don't give a crap if people (Or I) put the sources of their sigs. I don't have to worry about getting kicked out of school.

That's Casper, my overgrown Manx cat back home. He's all white, has yellow eyes and an attitude. Ain't that right Brian?

That's an understatement. Hell the Saberfish looks better than that piece of crap.

They probably just wanted some way to show off the Gouf. And get us to say, whoa cool I want a kit of that.

Yeah you can see it in that Episode where Roy bites it. But it looks like a turtle neck sweater.

He was one of two to survive it, but the other didn't come out perfect and was considered a failure. What's the diffrence between Canard and Kira?

Why doesn't he just go all out and grab an R rating? Is James Earl Jones comming back to do the voice? Do we see Mon Mothma anywhere sowing the seeds of the Rebellion?