justvinnie Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Viruses have long stump taxonomist as to their classification, being neither a living organism nor an inanimate substance. They lie between the two extremes carrying only genes necessary for infection and reproduction. It is known that phages (bacterial viruses) have the ability to shuttle genes from one host to another. In higher organisms, virus like genetic elements called transposons are also capable of turning on and off various genes by translocation. Even as I type these numerous labs across the country and indeed the world are using viruses to transfect genes, both natural and engineered. We have suceeded to use viruses in post transcriptional gene silencing by the use of siRNA. Kawamori must have read up on a lot of biological science to incorporate such cutting edge research science into a science fictional environment. What his story proposes is not beyond the realm of possiblities. In fact, it is even currently being done by humans. This grounding in real science combined with the fantastic, great storytelling techniques, and innovative stories have made Macross a truly unique phenomenon. This is why I admire Kawamori as such a genius of his medium. Instead of threading tired paths like a hack, he chooses to be unique and different with each story. Each Macross installment may not be for everyone by this very merit. vinnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radd Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Well it certainly still ranks as cutting edge, the concept itself is not all that new. I recall reading very similar theories in science magazines and even the 'science fact' sections of popular sci-fi magazines (maybe it was Asminov, or possibly Analog?) where they talked about viruses and bacteria and such from space being a catalyst for life on Earth, or the evolution of life that already existed here. This was ages ago. Between 5-10 years ago or so. It certainly is a nifty idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegis! Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Yeah , when I was watching episode 2 and saw Aries an the other scientist talking about the Viral Evolution theory my jaw droped to the ground , I couldn´t believe Kawamori would intagrate this kind of stuff into Macross , specially when I read about that same thing a few months before Macross Zero. I think this is a great addition , I think Kawamori must´ve based some of the original info in Macross and DYRL? on this and then he decided to explore it fully in a Prequel , the Protculture intervention has been ¨hinted¨more than a few times and this time MAcross Zero has show a real serious attitude in this aspect. At least we recieve a more logical approach to the origins of human evolution and the Protculture themselves. I wonder what the role of the AFOS is though ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justvinnie Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 Well it certainly still ranks as cutting edge, the concept itself is not all that new. I recall reading very similar theories in science magazines and even the 'science fact' sections of popular sci-fi magazines (maybe it was Asminov, or possibly Analog?) where they talked about viruses and bacteria and such from space being a catalyst for life on Earth, or the evolution of life that already existed here. This was ages ago. Between 5-10 years ago or so. It certainly is a nifty idea. Ahh... I know of that theory. Unfortunately all it does is place the problem of how did life start on another planet instead of Earth. Viruses cannot be the origin of life. Why? They can't reproduce on their own. I subscribe to the RNA origin theory. RNA can both replicate and catalyze reactions including its own splicing. The research into eukaryotic viral conjugation of genes is pretty recent. It has been known to occur in bacteria for a long time, but not in higher level organisms. Kawamori could easily write off the rise of viral vectors in modern biology as an artifact of Protoculture intervention. The truth is we don't really know how viruses can arise and evolve. It is however believed that the transposons were originally viruses that became integrated into the genome as gene shuttles. Very Protoculture-esque in the context of Macross. vinnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twich Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Discussuions like this really make me wish that there was a DVD with real and accurate subtitles that was available in the US <_< This just makes me want these things to come to the US more and more. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Did you notice Sara mention "two snakes intertwined" in the islanders blood somewhere in that scene? That's a pretty accurate metaphor for DNA, especially for a priestess on a remote tropical island whose inhabitants have eschewed modern technology. And just how did that become part of their folklore to begin with...and how will this tie in with everything else? More happening on that island than has been revealed, there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 guess we wait until episode 3 comes out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent ONE Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Did you notice Sara mention "two snakes intertwined" in the islanders blood somewhere in that scene? That's a pretty accurate metaphor for DNA, especially for a priestess on a remote tropical island whose inhabitants have eschewed modern technology. And just how did that become part of their folklore to begin with...and how will this tie in with everything else? More happening on that island than has been revealed, there is. I think she freaked out because there were two snakes, no other reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent ONE Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 I thought about the prospect of a virus causing a random mutation. And yes this is a real concept, however the old man in the village was saying that the Bird People cut the fins off of the fish to make Man... I don't think the virus theory will go anywhere as it would be hard to connect to what we already know about the Protoculture race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegis! Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Did you notice Sara mention "two snakes intertwined" in the islanders blood somewhere in that scene? That's a pretty accurate metaphor for DNA Yes , I think it´s quite clear she´s reffering (unknowingly) to the DNA structure , If you see Ep.1 when the old man is telling the islanders about the legend of the Bird-men you´ll notice that there´s a painting of the DNA on the wall. I thought about the prospect of a virus causing a random mutation. And yes this is a real concept, however the old man in the village was saying that the Bird People cut the fins off of the fish to make Man... I don't think the virus theory will go anywhere as it would be hard to connect to what we already know about the Protoculture race. He didn´t say the bird-men cut the fins off fish , he said they cut the tails of the early man , which in any case isn´t a literal , it´s a metaphor created as a way to enrich their folklore. That´s the whole point of Macross Zero , to explore the contrast between metaphorical folklore and real facts within the realm of Macross , the natives may think is all magical and sacred religious simbols but in reality it´s nothing else but the Protculture intervention on earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Clearly, Aries suspects there's "something" special to be found in the islanders blood, be it DNA or something else. Yet Sara is against the blood tests, likely without really knowing why. It's not like she watches a lot of Discovery channel or anything. Somehow in the distant past, the"snake" metaphor became part of the island folklore, as evidenced by the dialog and the cave paintings. Perhaps Sara's fear is based on some ancient warning from the "bird people" who would likely want their genetic tamperings on our planet to remain unknown. But what could it be about the islander's genetic makeup that would be a key to understanding AIPHOS that the rest of us wouldn't posess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 (edited) That´s the whole point of Macross Zero , to explore the contrast between metaphorical folklore and real facts within the realm of Macross It would be interesting if Kawamori were to connect this theme to the "controversies" about the Macross continuities, in light of his comments that DYRL and the SDF Macross series are both representations ("folklore"), with their own perspectives on the "actual" events ("real facts") of Space War I. (Sorry about the edit, Agent One.) Edited September 3, 2003 by ewilen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent ONE Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 ...He didn´t say the bird-men cut the fins off fish , he said they cut the tails of the early man , which in any case isn´t a literal , it´s a metaphor created as a way to enrich their folklore. You sure about that? <_< I thought he said fish, 'then after the Bird Men cut the fins off, legs grew.' Dunno, been months since I've watched any Zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegis! Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Clearly, Aries suspects there's "something" special to be found in the islanders blood, be it DNA or something else. Yet Sara is against the blood tests, likely without really knowing why. It's not like she watches a lot of Discovery channel or anything. Somehow in the distant past, the"snake" metaphor became part of the island folklore, as evidenced by the dialog and the cave paintings. Perhaps Sara's fear is based on some ancient warning from the "bird people" who would likely want their genetic tamperings on our planet to remain unknown. But what could it be about the islander's genetic makeup that would be a key to understanding AIPHOS that the rest of us wouldn't posess? I agree with all of that , but I beg to differ in regards to Aries suspicion about the Islander´s blood. The only reason Aries took samples of the native´s blood was because it was a routine check on the healt of the natives , afterall you wouldn´t want the troops to catch anything on the island. I really doubt Aries was expecting to find something on the blood samples of the natives , that´s why she so surprised by the cellular reaction in Mao´s sample when Sara´s song is detected by the Cyclops radar (it´s installed on the top of the cabin where Aries is looking at the blood samples ). You sure about that? I thought he said fish, 'then after the Bird Men cut the fins off, legs grew.' Dunno, been months since I've watched any Zero. You might´ve seen a different fansub thus seeing a different translation , but in any case the folklore of Mayan shouldn´t be taken literally (i.e. Bird-men could reffer to creatures with just the ability to levitate or fly in machines/ships or even mechas or the protoculture itself ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 (edited) I agree with all of that , but I beg to differ in regards to Aries suspicion about the Islander´s blood. The only reason Aries took samples of the native´s blood was because it was a routine check on the healt of the natives , Yeah, I could go either way on this one. Sara's protests could have just been to show her resistance to outside influences on the island. You know....us "civilized" people, with our micowaves and MTV. Then you get the payoff with Aries offering the tasty beverages to win the people over and hilarity ensues. Part of the whole "out with the old, in with the new" motif, I suppose. Or.... Perhaps we don't know all that Aries knows, or at least what she suspects. She knows that AIPHOS has been here for untold millennia, and that it may somehow be tied to the islanders and their beliefs. She may not have been looking for anything specific, but she may have suspected that there was something worth investigating. Likewise, Sara might not know that their DNA has the key to activating AIPHOS (or whatever alternate wacko theory we can suggest ) but she may be trying to adhere to some dimly remembered bit of scripture, handed down by the Bird People before they left, that says that you shouldn't mess with this stuff. Sort of: Protoculture - "We're leaving. Now don't you humans go experimenting with gene sequencing or anything while we're gone." Ancient islander - "Huh?" Protoculture - "Sigh. Those snake-thingies in your blood. Don't fool around with them." Ancient islander - "Ohh...ok. Gotcha." Edit: I should add that if it weren't for Sara's reference to DNA, I would have forgotten the whole thing. If Sara had objected to the blood tests for some religous mumbo-jumbo like it was going to steal their souls then I'd have no leg to stand on. But the first time I watched that, I jumped out of my seat and shouted "How the frell does a voodoo priestess on a tropical island know about DNA?" Even if Sara does't know what it is, the fact that she somehow knows about microcellular structure really stood out as odd. Like I said, it's not like she watches a lot of Discovery channel or anything. Who knows? I just like to throw some random ideas out there. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Edited September 3, 2003 by bsu legato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepcore Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 It's an interesting approach they're taking; although I, for one, hope we fail miserably in the real word at anything of the sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justvinnie Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 (edited) It's an interesting approach they're taking; although I, for one, hope we fail miserably in the real word at anything of the sort. Why? I think it is the future of medicine. As is with any science there are ethical issues to address. Using viruses to carry genes will pave the way to gene therapy. Imagine a world where no one has to suffer any of the countless numbers of genetic disorders. Is that not worht striving for? Humans have stopped evolving due to the lack of selective pressures and better survival rates despite genetic shortcomings due to modern medical advances. There will come a point where we will have to guide our own evolution. We will have to start weeding out the deleterious genes that accumulate due the to survival of members of our society that carry that gene thanks to modern medicine. People like me would have never survived in a hunter-gatherer society due to my extremely limited vision (I'm legally blind). Only because of our "advanced" society do people like me have a chance of surviving. However in guiding our own evolution, we must ensure a diverse gene pool. Do not make everyone the same. This is kill any chance of long term species survival. Back on topic: Using viruses to evolutionarily guide the development of humans is a great idea for sci-fi. It makes sense because you can create a series of viruses that will only become active once the proper evolutionary point has been reached. This will then allow you to guide the development of generations after generations of an organism. This time delay is necessary to allow an organism to adapt to its changing gene pool. The other thing about viruses is that they are self replicating. As such you only need to creat a few and you could genetically engineer en mass whereas to change each and every cell of every individual would be time prohibitive. vinnie Edited September 4, 2003 by justvinnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepcore Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 I've yet to see any evidence that humans have ever evolved (ie, it's sci-fi to me, and poorly constructed at that), so no point in even arguing this. Yeah, the work could do great things (maybe), but you know... I'm 28 and I've had my idealism beat out of me and think resolutely it would be used as a weapon before anything else. And probably will be... Back on topic: I just read Seven Daughters of Eve which talks about how mitochondrial dna can be used to trace back common ancestors of humans (unfortunately lots of times from an evolutionary standpoint, but...). I think that at the very least the islander's blood would give a rough estimate of how long ago the PC tampered with us just by comparing variations with the isolated islanders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsu legato Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 In light of episode 3 of Zero hitting the net, I thought I'd bump this most excellent thread. Does anybody have a revised or new theory on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justvinnie Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 Wow! Someone actually remembered this thread! I can't wait to see the subs and see what further elaboration on the Viral Evolution Theory Kawamori has thrown out for us. vinnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeszekely Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Okay, here's my question. Reguardless of how they did it, we know that the Protoculture did guide the evolution of humankind's ancestors so that the end result would be something compatible with Protoculture for purposes of future colonization. Technically, we know that they did the same thing on Zola. So why isn't the evidence in the blood of every man woman and child on Earth and/or Zola? What is it that makes the blood of the Mayan people special? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justvinnie Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 I think that the blood from the general population is more derived from the original ancestors of humanity in the Macross universe than from the Protocultures. The Mayan's, and especially the family of the Guardians are more directly related to the Protocultures since they are basically ground zero. Considering their relative isolation, very little of the Protoculture tagging would be lost. So it's not that everybody doesn't carry the mark of the Protoculture in their genes, it's just been really diluted down. vinnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Is it the Mayans that are unique, or is it the family of the Guardians? And if it's the guardians, is it possible that they are the modern descendents of the Anima Spiritia? And if that's true, do Mao and Shin hook up later and have baby Basara? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dna Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 It seems to be related more towards the guardians instead of the general population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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