Kawamori designs get chogokin toys!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I treat the cheesiness of super moves similar to the cheesiness in DBZ. It can be both funny and serious at the same time. When Piccolo does his special beam cannon and shouts out the name before doing the move he is like summoning secret kung fu techiques that have been perfected for thousand of years and taps into another dimension to perform the move. Kind of like when people shout out Hai YaAAA! when they break a concrete block with thier heads There is a spiritual/occult side to the action too. Although the powers they tap into can't be explained scientifically because they are chaotic, there is still some order or disipline in making them work and it has more to do with the mind itself which is why the characters are able to be godlike in ability. (fighting faster than the eye can see, fighting in gravity much less forgiving than earth etc)

Now the idea that not everything can be explained by science and that people who put too much faith in the weapons are inferior, is a theme I like. eg Jedi knights using swords, the super saiyan race using brute supernatural strength. I think its cool that fighter planes tanks and weapons in general become obsolete once the body of the hero itself becomes the weapon. Or the character in akira - merely using the mind to control the forces he can manipulate to destroy world. I think thats one of the reasons I like anime because it creates a different world and uses the imagination. All those people trying to say how unrealistic things are, are boring and obviously don't read comic books.

So when robots are used to perform the moves I can imagine they are a combination of magic and technology put together. The pilot themselves have to attune themselves to mastering thier body before the robot can amplify thier strength. It's a fantasy world like the one in DBZ. Sure there is an earth, and planets and sun, religions, make-believe rulers, alien races, and knight in shining armour hero archetypes, but it went down an alternate path and people used different technology to solve the problems they have. Instead of shooting something with a laser, why not just ram your fist in its face and kill it in a single blow with these super powers? Far more efficient.. especially if the fist is hitting at a velocity faster than the human eye can see due to supernatural strength. What's that you say? Super powers don't exist? But that's WHY we are watching it on tv or reading it in a comic book. Because it would be cool if they were.

Nobody asks why doesn't spiderman use a gun or how his powers really work but when they watch a robot show it has to suddenly follow all these rules we apply to our world, cuz robots mean science fiction. (I wonder what would happen if the aquarion was mass produced?) The fantasy world they live in is completely different. Their armies may not fight using tools alone but a combination of mind and body instead. It can be realistic within the world that was created which still entertains, and that's how my mind is able to think about it. You don't put your bias about the real world into the fantasy or you won't like it. (remember kids if you want to beat a jedi knight just chuck his body from a great height. They may seem near unstopable to troops with blasters, mass-produced droids with armor, but they can't float of all things. The ultimate defens is a trapdoor. Funny and serious at the same time - yet millions of fans treat it like a religion even when they were supposed to grow up when they became adults! *points to example of adults watching a kiddy make believe show with kiddy make-believe rules*)

Same thing with super robots. When you were kids you liked them because they could kick everythings ass, but suddenly as adults we apply the bias we have with our world to the fantasy. Adults become boring and apply limits to the action thinking the rules of that world are the same as the ones here. You can have a high tech blaster in star wars, but at the same time have people who can sense the trajectory of the path of the shot moments too small to qauntify before it hits them to deflect it with thier fist. You watched and accepted that because it's just damn cool to see that done. No different with super robot shows.

Btw I'm whatching macross 7 right now, I'm really impressed by the animation cheesiness, never thought of see such crap in Macross.

Let's see at least some episodes of aquarion before judge it aniways.

Macross is going down the path of magic now:

Think of it this way: in DYRL an ancient atlantean culture discovers all the secrets of the mind, and this becomes the weapon of choice.(magic) Humans discover all this hidden technology from a much more advanced civilisation than thier own, which the government keeps surpressed from others due to wanting to keep it for themselves. (the secret government project like the one in akira, studying kids with psyi powers in the interest of making them weapons because you guessed it, people want power) Now to me the idea of mutants (that's what the protodevlin monsters were - genetically made and modified to fight without the need for a robotic exterior, ...makes a lot of sense if you are willing to believe that humans are not the only race that advanced and there are things like powers we may have that we just don't know about but which lay dormant. Beause we all came from the same 'spiritual soup' of the god who made us in his image - ie we might just be diluted versions. (I think they were alluding to this in akira when that girl talks about how we evolved from amoeba) Now the only thing getting in the way is whether the military can amplify this mind power to create psi soldiers. Unfortunately only a select few people have the strongest conection so they study the dna of people with the power (midi clorens in star wars) and voila we have charaters like basara and Sara who are super heros because they had the secrets from these atlantean cultures all along hidden from everyone else.

Similar to yoda forbidding obi wan from allowing anakin to be trained as a jedi, the ancient power is forbidden to be controlled by those with evil intentions and it is this which brings a repeat of hitory. (earth is demolished and the knowledge is lost only to be found again by the civilisation that comes after us and the cycle repeats ad infinatum. The legend of how the previous civilisation got wiped out by an angry god is passed down from generation to genreation in order that people don;t repeat the mistakes and then eventually this "myth of the lost civilisation" - that is us- becomes a religion which nobody believes...magic becomes forbidden again until the next great cataclysm when the new civilisation creates a brave new world with nothing to fear. The myth of this "protoculture" is a "kids story" which could not be true and so scientists begin studying people with the special power upon recent archeaological finds of the remais of the protoculture...and the rest is (ancient) history

Edited May 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

Now the idea that not everything can be explained by science and that people who put too much faith in the weapons are inferior, is a theme I like. eg Jedi knights using swords,

Hey, I always wanted to see a jedi running around with a gun. That woulda been freaking awesome.

They DO have an excuse for their swords, though. Being able to deflect incoming fire is pretty useful.

And it's a great general-purpose tool. Entry tool, light source, can opener... the list is endless.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Hey, I always wanted to see a jedi running around with a gun. That woulda been freaking awesome.

They DO have an excuse for their swords, though. Being able to deflect incoming fire is pretty useful.

And it's a great general-purpose tool. Entry tool, light source, can opener... the list is endless.

I liked this idea that the sword was a more civilised way to fight. It conjures up images of warriors who would be polite and wait thier turn to fight like gentlemen and the winner had bragging rights as a superior swordsman when others would see thier champions fighting against each other. But nooo they use those swords in every situation, not just fighting other jedi. When you see a jedi opening its lightsaber it should have been for a rare occasion when 1 knight saw another knight and thought it worthy to fight them using the sword because they were both destined to fight that way. Up close, no spectators that would be allowed to interfere, and both trapped until one or the other was dead.

However if you go in with a cynical attitude:

you'd see in episode 2 those poor fools tried to fight robot armies with the things where grenades would have been more effective and quick and practical. What's the point of deflecting fire if the person has a blaster and can run away while shooting at you? It would take more energy to get within range and striking distance to kill something than to just blast them. Think how handy it would have been when baba fett's dad was running away? Han Solo's 'trust in the blaster' was equally valid in this situation as the jedi's trust in the saber and the force. It's just that one is less physically draining and practical while the other is not worth the time to use if you are outnumbered.

Swords are cool when two elite warriors want to prove who is better.

Long range weapons are more practical for general purpose use to dispatch several enemies at once.

But in the end what was so entertaining was the sword fighting. The audience is all too ready to accept the knights as being used to kill using the light saber in masses and to rely on that weapon 100%. I liked it better when the jedi could just sneak thier way in, mind control the guards and kind of assasinate the important leader with the weapon silently. It wouldn't really be an assasination due to one knight able to sense another one nearby, but if you could kill the king and cut the head of the snake, it could result in the victory of one army over another or clear the way for the regular forces to fight off the empire themselves. Remember thier skills in the older trilogy were treated for special occasions where normal skills would not have sufficed. Eg when luke uses 'the force' to guide the shot to kill the death star in ep4 rather than rely on the normal method.

When they show restraint in using the force it makes it that much more special and relevent to the situation. But as I said it would be over-critical to point this out since it is a fantasy world. Maybe thier minds are so aware to what is going to happen (sensing danger) they feel they must discipline themselves to trust the sword only, being true to thier outdated traditions by killing each person on a case by case basis, and only when necesary?

Whereas the cynic in me can see the sillyness of using close range weapons, (the equivalant as to why guns seem so damn useless in a hong kong action movie )the more imaginative side can create reasons and explanations for why those fictional characters trust in that weapon to maintain some kind of integrity to thier philosophy and tradition. Thier kind was living during a more civilised period when people treated each other with fairness even in combat and didn't use shameful tactics because people didn't think to rely on "convenience" and saw doing things the hard way as somehow more noble whereas reliance on tools and machines was a sign of weakness.

Edited May 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mechamaniac]

pug fugly

What he said...

[Final Vegeta]

Now the idea that not everything can be explained by science and that people who put too much faith in the weapons are inferior

The only problem is that actual science is not scientific. Scientists won't admit openly their own mistakes and especially the mistakes of past scientists who they worship as their masters.

All those people trying to say how unrealistic things are, are boring and obviously don't read comic books.

I started kinda that way, but then I understood that an average author know not much more than his reader what reality is. Informatics use the term "voodoo" to describe something you can use but you don't know how it works. Reality is voodoo.

Instead of shooting something with a laser, why not just ram your fist in its face and kill it in a single blow with these super powers? Far more efficient.. especially if the fist is hitting at a velocity faster than the human eye can see due to supernatural strength.

In real world all things have their drawbacks. Works of fiction that insert drawbacks are more interesting than others.

Nobody asks why doesn't spiderman use a gun

I believe there was some kind of comic code act against excessive violence, sex scenes and bad language.

or how his powers really work but when they watch a robot show it has to suddenly follow all these rules we apply to our world, cuz robots mean science fiction.

I saw a movie called "The Core", and it was science fiction, but I don't think it followed the rules applied to our world.

(I wonder what would happen if the aquarion was mass produced?)

The clones will be weaker than the original

Same thing with super robots.

The problem with super robots is not that they are super robots, it is just that they are sentai.

You watched and accepted that because it's just damn cool to see that done. No different with super robot shows.

Not to mention infamous and irrealistic use of "gun shoots the lock door" in American movies. Two istances come to my mind: Rambo II where it was a bamboo cage and The Eraser where it was a caveau with an electronic door lock.

The legend of how the previous civilisation got wiped out by an angry god is passed down from generation to genreation in order that people don;t repeat the mistakes

What mistakes? War can make some people richer, so just don't spoil the tricks up your sleeve.

The myth of this "protoculture" is a "kids story" which could not be true and so scientists begin studying people with the special power upon recent archeaological finds of the remais of the protoculture...and the rest is (ancient) history

I don't have read it yet, but maybe you'll like "The Secret in the Bible - The lost history of the Giza Plateau and how Temple priests of the Great Pyramid preserved the evidence of life beyond death" by Tony Bushby.

FV

Edited May 25, 2005 by Final Vegeta

[Shaggydog]

Now the idea that not everything can be explained by science and that people who put too much faith in the weapons are inferior

The only problem is that actual science is not scientific. Scientists won't admit openly their own mistakes and especially the mistakes of past scientists who they worship as their masters.

In the 20th century, two revolutionary theories overturned many phyical ideas that were widely accepted. These were quantum mechanics (later extended to quantum electrodynamics) and special relativity. These theories were proposed because they fit with some experimental observations which had not been adequately explained previously. Like all good scientific theories, these theories were 'falsifiable' - they made specific predictions about the physical world that could be tested with experiments. These experiments have been carried out by multiple researchers in many settings, who have published their results along with all the details of their set-up, in such a way that the experiments could be repeated by other researchers, and the entire works subjected to rigorous peer review. Given the rather bizarre nature of some of the predictions, many people were anxious to discredit these theories at first, but to date they have passed every test and their predictions have been verified. Thus, quantum mechanics and special relatively are now widely accepted. This is the scientific process.

Today, there are still folks working to find alternative theories and test the predictions of quantum electrodynamics and special relativity. Moreover, there are yet-stranger theories that have been proposed, from general relativity to string theory, which have not yet been sufficiently verified, and many people are working to test those theories and propose alternatives. It is important to remember that if tomorrow someone were to prove quantum mechanics false, there would be rigorous scrutiny applied to that claim (given that the theory has passed so many tests so far); however, if he or she had a reproducible experiment that showed unquestionably that the theory was incorrect, that person would likely be given a Nobel Prize in physics and would become one of the most famous physicists in history. Scientists are not taught to 'worship' previous physicists or theories, but to question everything.

To all of you who hate science or think it's a sham, I beg you to consider the next time you use your cell phone, or read this message board, or cook something in the microwave, or enjoy air conditioning on a hot day, or drive to the store, or fly in an airplane, or play a video game, or even flush the toilet that these things did not come from magic, they came from SCIENCE and engineering. By using all of the above comforts you are implicitly acknowledging that science is pretty darn useful.

I'm sad to see my thread has turned to this.

[Gaijin]

Boo...where's my Mother of all, ultimate fighting, Super Ultra edition SDF-1?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

To all of you who hate science or think it's a sham, I beg you to consider the next time you use your cell phone, or read this message board, or cook something in the microwave, or enjoy air conditioning on a hot day, or drive to the store, or fly in an airplane, or play a video game, or even flush the toilet that these things did not come from magic, they came from SCIENCE and engineering. By using all of the above comforts you are implicitly acknowledging that science is pretty darn useful.

Shags no one is saying science is evil.

Just that within a fictional world, there has to be some kind of unexplainable phenomenon to make that world interesting and entertaining to me. It has to be able to break or at least bend the rules a bit so we can't say: "look how unrealistic such and such is, the show is aimed for kids", because people have been accepting of unrealism in movies for ages! Example take the jedi knights in star wars, adults watch this and enjoy it because it is cool. Even though they have force powers, the ability to levitate crashed fighters out of the water, they still can't lift or levitate thier own bodies to save them from a fall. I think this is funny and unrealistic because for all that effort mastering the skills; like having lightning come out of your hands, they can't defend themselves from a trapdoor. But do I criticise it? No I just enjoy the cool light saber duels and soak in the atmoshpere because it is cooler to let the world apply its own rules rather than us applying ours. If we do apply our rules it is harder to like. Sound in space is another thing: imagine how boring it would be to not hear the explosions. Because it is a fantasy world it appeals to those who don't want realism.

One of the things I wanted to say about comics is that in those worlds, people are allowed to use thier imagination more and create thier own rules. When something original comes along people tend dismiss it as a kids show, when they as adults like movies and comics that are aimed at the same childish audience.

But to me so long as it stays consistant I can believe that world can exist, say if the technology we had was different from what we had in the real world. (instead of using lasers and blasters the main weapon was the mind - which to me is a cool theme - the idea that a godly character would not rely on a tool but perhaps on an ancient civiliation's weapons which were not reproducable for the time they were living in)

This means things like realistic physics should not be applied to fantasy when half the time it is unexplainable magic anyway. eg spiderman's super powers should stay mysterious and unknown because it gives him more character, makes him cooler and keeps him stuck in the fictional world so he can do all those cool things that defy the rules we have in the real world: like spider agility, spider strength, spider sense etc This is what makes it entertaining because it is just escapism. Seeing a man flip, dodge, strafe, cling to walls, leap into the air and swing effortlessly and with unhuman speed and grace is what makes it fun to watch.

If hulk can smash a tank and beat an army of people using brute strength that is cool, no need to be offended that it couldn't possibly happen, because that is the entertainment half of it. Because it coldn't possibly happen,that is why people read/watch it: as an escape. If you sit there trying to explain exactly how the powers came about (or criticising why banner's pants never rip during a change) you are only making it worse since there has to be some mystery (a bit of chaos with it's own order and displine) to make it cool.

As adults people see things like that as cheesy and unrealistic, but then that's why kids and adult fans who are not ashamed to be fans (I call them closet fans who buy all the products and merchandise and read the material but won't admit they are fans of kid's stories with a lot of magic in them ) want to watch or read something to escape from reality. I was just pointing out the irony because people's attitudes change as they grow up:less imginative, more closed-minded, more easily offended, jaded and cranky because the image of the world didn't match the image in their head etc. So they can't relax.ie when someone says a small guy couldn't possibly lift a big guy because it would be way too heavy, ignoring that the person has supernatural powers or a way to telekineticaly lift objects to lessen the load - rules that wouldn't apply in the real world but are perfect excuses for characters' uncanny abilities for a fantasy one.

Anyway I just wanted to comment that I like themes where there is a mixture of magic and technology and neither one is more useful than another, because too much realism (that is people relying on machines and being weak) can be boring. I can accept the characters in DBZ may be aimed towards kids but they can be cool and serious too. The intention wasn't to start a debate about scientists. (mad scientists are cooler ) Just to say that if we can have people in the real world able to condition thier mind body and spirit into cracking concrete blocks with thier hands we must go one step further and assume an angel with supernatural powers would be able to amplify that strength 100 fold.

This is why the characters in macross 7 are acceptable to me: because the PC were waaaay ahead of humans in creating super powered mutants that were getting close to having godlike abilities due to thier wisdom and experiments. But what I was saying is that in order to "like it", we have to open our mind up to the possibility that other more advanced civilisations with more advanced scientists could exist in the universe though. Once you get over that step, the magic side of macross becomes less cheesy and you can kind of accept the more unrealistic side to it.

As for the cheesy naming of moves: did anyone get offended when guld said "stealth" to his yf21 to make it invisible to radar in macross plus, or when batman (in the first movie) gave the command to "stop" to his batmobile? I don't see that voice-activated commands are cheesy anymore. The technology exists now, (maybe this is a way for the robot to identify the person piloting it and configure itself for that person?) and remember that it might be more efficient to "talk" the command to free your hands for other tasks.

Edited May 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Final Vegeta]

Uh-oh, I chose the wrong word. Correct "actual" with "present". Sorry.

Given the rather bizarre nature of some of the predictions, many people were anxious to discredit these theories at first

This is why there isn't a scientific approach to science nowadays. It's not limited just to science, it involves everything.

but to date they have passed every test and their predictions have been verified.  Thus, quantum mechanics and special relatively are now widely accepted.  This is the scientific process.

The problem is not that. Also you think science is just physics, while it is a wide range of fields; medicine, for istance.

Do you really think it took years for scientists to discover that Prozac induced suicides and negative results weren't falsifiable? The reality is that Eli Lilly made investments in SSRI, so they would go bankruptcy if Prozac failed. After some time other firms thought SSRIs were a good idea, so they tried it too. It seems Eli Lilly just chose the wrong inibitor. Maybe if it picked the right inibitor everything would be fine by now.

The same for GMs. Monsanto finally discovered that GM corn could cause malformations (proven also in the case of Monsanto's potato). Well, Monsanto said its corn was a patent already approved worldwide. With its lobbying power is not amazing. The problem now is that Monsanto paid for its patents and it is not intentioned to withdraw them from market so easily. After all they are specially designed to resist RoundUp, Monsanto's pesticide. On a side note, Central Dogma of biotechnology upon which GMs are based was proven wrong, but Monsanto wasn't informed of this in these 40 years.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

I've said in another thread that when someone loses it everything of that culture is seen as inferior. One example of this is agupunture. Is it scientific or not? It is a good question, because that would mean medicians would have to review some of their theories. Also there is this doctor Hamer who healed cancer and was jailed in Spain and France because of this; he stated that cancer and many other diseases are psycosomatic, he called it The New Medicine.

Western medicine is aimed to heal symptoms, not the illness itself. It is funny how everything centers around money when people don't even know how money works.

Scientists are not taught to 'worship' previous physicists or theories, but to question everything.

Those would be good scientists, but in reality most people just build their theories upon former theories. If it was just that, it would still be good, though, just as long the foundation consisted in the theories of good scientists.

It is not. Medical newspapers are funded by medical firms who are not interested in bad reviews of their products. Also, it is easy to create a society with a good sounding name like "Public Health Eggheads" and send articles from there. After a while even good scientists take them as sound and spread them. Science propaganda makes as many victims as war propaganda.

To all of you who hate science or think it's a sham

Propaganda is based on emotions, not facts. It is either white or black, it doesn't have shades of gray. So Hitler said. People subjected to propaganda react with the same attitude the propaganda was based on. I hope this reaction of yours was based on my vocabulary mistake.

I beg you to consider the next time you use your cell phone, or read this message board, or cook something in the microwave, or enjoy air conditioning on a hot day, or drive to the store, or fly in an airplane, or play a video game, or even flush the toilet that these things did not come from magic, they came from SCIENCE and engineering.  By using all of the above comforts you are implicitly acknowledging that science is pretty darn useful.

I acknowledge it every time, but the point is not that.

If this world strictly followed scientific rules we, for example, would have car engines that work on a biodiesel made of hemp and ethanol instead of oil. Hemp is even replaceble. Rockefeller's Standard Oil understood its monopoly was at stake so it had to do something. Dupont foresaw his nylon wouldn't have a market with hemp ropes. William Rundolph Hearst was making investments in a kind of paper not made of hemp but of wood. They were powerful, Hearst had a widespread newspaper and Holliwood collaborated; there was no counterinformation at the time. Suddenly the dangerous drug known as marijuana (a Mexican name few had heard of in the US) was banned (most of the Congressmen didn't know marijuana was cannabis), and later alcohol was banned and then monopolized after the proibizionism.

Standard Oil and GM also saw oil engine run better with a lead addictive. They chose lead because ordinary people would never think patenting a known poison would be profitable (someone else instead learned the lesson with the fluorides, which were a leaftover of Manhattan Project). After lead addictive was imposed there was decades of inertia to take it out.

But the main point of this is that a lot of gullible highchairmen came to see world oil reserves as essential to their nations and started with coups to install dictators in strategic interest states. It is rather interesting since there is plenty of oil, gas and uranium in theWyoming desert, and that could lower oil price in the US, but maybe they won't drill it just for this. This unscientific approach at resolving the energy problem has been causing a lot of stirs the world has still to recover from.

Now, where is science involved in all this? Well, you know, marijuana was one of the oldest medicine humanity ever knew (plus hemp seeds are very nutritional). There has to be a reason why it has been banned for all these decades. Some scientists investigated for themselves and discovered the truth, others are still desperate trying to split hairs to find something bad in marijuana. Sadly, the media chooses what is science and what is not.

Well, since you are fond of physics, I would recommend you a reading of the

Wave Theory of the Field.

FV

[Ed.Coli]

*ahem*

YAY FOR AQUARION TOYS...?

[Shaggydog]

Oi. Yes.