Radd

VI is considered the last "real" Final Fantasy and consider all later games fancy graphics with little substance only by those who got into the series with either Chrono Trigger (which brought a lot of people into the RPG genre who then picked up FFVI) or with VI itself. Those who had been into the series beforehand considered FF VI "all fancy graphics with little substance", complained about the weakly developed characters and whined that it was just a bunch of cinema sequences tied together with stunted gameplay. Eventually it's considered rather 'chic' to join the "oldschool" crowd and spit on anything newer. Eventually VII will stand on the pedastle. It already does with many RPG fans that got onboard with that particular game. Even the dwindling voice of those who laud FFIV as the greatest Final Fantasy are guilty of this way of thinking.

I find it interesting that so many people find the finished version to be "too detailed" and thus prefere the unfinished rough. Even if the design itself had not been changed at all, the rough version cleaned up would have an equal amount of detail. Just look at the detailed lineart of the VF-1, or any other Valkyrie in the Macross Design Works. All of them have a lot of detail in their finished, cleaned up, highly detailed pictures.

First of all, check out the chronological timeline at the Macross Compendium: http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronology/index.html For M7 events specifically: http://www.anime.net/macross/story/chronol...2040/index.html You say you want a timeline, so I can only assume by your reference that the compendium reads like an encyclopedia that you tried going through character and mecha descriptions, but missed the timeline itself. I won't try and sway your opinion of Macross 7. You've given it a fair shake and found it was not your taste. I'd say the 'Sailor Moon' quality you speak of can only refere to the designs of some of the Protodevlin, as there is not a trace of 'Monster of the Week' style storytelling, magical attacks, or magical girl storytelling trappings found anywhere in the series. Why is Macross 7 so different from other Macross shows? Macross is made from several different elements. You have the love triangle, you have the idea that mankind's spirit will prevail against impossible odds, you have the music, then you have the war story, and the mecha action. The balance of these aspects has been changed over time through the different Macross series. Macross Plus, for instance had no war story, but pushed the mecha action more than any other Macross show before it. Macross Zero brings the war story aspect back, keeps the mecha action top notch, but the character developement is lacking compared to most other Macross offerings, and the love triangle, while important, does not seem as pronounced. Also the music, while still important to the story, seems to get far less of the spotlight. Macross 7 takes almost the opposite approach of Macross Zero. The music, the theme of a determination and spirit, and the character developement are the most important aspects of the story. The war story is barely present (respectively), despite the war itself being a big part of the story, the love triangle, while very much there, isn't so important to the resolution of the story. The theme, represented and personofied by Nekki Basara, is the main aspect of the show. The well paced, realistic character developement, of the rest of the cast hammer that point home. Mecha action fans are unfortunately left out in the cold. There's also the way the show is directed and presented. With the theme, and Nekki Basara being so central to the story, if you don't like Basara and can in no way relate to or appreciate the theme of the story, you're not going to like the show. The director and producers of the show left almost no appeal for the mecha fans and war story fans. There's a few excellent mecha designs (notably, the VF-17, and the VF-14 in it's minor appearance), but the animation for the action sequences is decidedly lackluster. Unfortunately, the only way that you'll be able to know the series "like the back of your hand" is to watch it all yourself. I reccomend trying the Compendium's timeline though, it honestly seems to be exactly what you're looking for.

I love both, but prefere the DYRL? storyline, characters, and visuals. While the tv series is longer, I think the actual character developement is more realistic, better presented, and just better handled in the movie, at least that between Minmay, Hikaru, and Misa. Of course secondary characters get severely cut in that department, and tertiary characters are right out excite for minor appearances. I'd hate to choose between one or the other, so I'm thankful I don't have to. I have both on DVD.

That idea has come under question several times. I'm not convinced that our 'DYRL?' is the same movie mentioned in Macross 7. Combine that with the Kawamori statements that the true story of Space War One is somewhere between the tv series and DYRL? and that the idea that "the tv series story and the movie designs are what is canon" is only a very broad, general statement in that we see significant events changed from their strictly tv series version in the flashbacks seen in M7 itself, which lead me to the conclusion that parts of the DYRL? story also worked into the "true" Space War One story. Even if only the designs were canon, then it's quite possible these specific designs also can be considered canon in the Macross universe.

I certainly hope that you're joking, because this is turning into a Monty Python skit. You don't like the Monthy Python? Oh, I love Monty Python, it's just that whether or not you were joking determined whether I was laughing with you or at you.

I wondered about that too. I suppose there could be a virtual cockpit much like those sported by the VF-11 and 19 (and the 22 maybe?), giving the pilot a view of the outside even where there's no clear canopy. No clue when those started getting widespread use.

Mach Go Go, and other classics need to remain in the hands of those who will treat them right. Want a good example? Check out the new Tetsujin 28 Go (Gigantor), Geneon will be bringing it out on DVD in the near future. That's an example of a new version of an old show done with the utmost care and respect instead of some idjits trying to cash in with a cheaply made, poorly executed "blockbuster hit".

I must be in the minority that preferes the final design. I believe there was a very similar poll done ages ago and I voted the same back then. While I love the Blackbird, and I agree that I prefere the rough version's canopy, the bubble canopy hardly ruins the final version for me. I also approve of the beam cannons and overall design evolution that seems to come from the VF-4 (my favourite Valkyrie). Far from the losing visual tie in with earlier fighters, I'd say Kawamori expanded on that with the final design. If anything, I'd say that the ultimate version would have the SR-17 style canopy and the rest would be the finished version, but as it is that one point just is not enough to beat the refined version's design. On a side note, I think any comments about the design being too 'Gundam', I can only assume they mean the oversized shoulders and that there's cents on the chest, saying it looks like a Gundam seems akin to saying a kitten looks like a great dane because they each have legs, two ears, and a tail.

The problem is, we dropped the VF-1D argument a day or two ago.

I certainly hope that you're joking, because this is turning into a Monty Python skit.

You see no problem with debating something you don't know anything about, nor feel any inclination towards researching? That is what you have stated. In a debate, you make a statement or pose a question. Others will then state their position on the statement or question, and back up their position with facts. If you don't know any facts about the position you are taking or the topic in question, you cannot back up your statements. I did not open this thread with the solid, unquestionable knowledge that the information I am seeking does not exist, and I have no clue where you get this idea from. My question, in fact, is asking whether or not such proof exists. However, the fact that many of us are unaware of such proof, does not prove that this documentation does not exist. It simply means those of us who have not seen it, are unaware of where to find it. The fact that this documentation is not on the Compendium lends credit to the belief that this documentation does not exist, but it is still not solid proof that the information itself does not exist. I do still agree with you that I am unlikely to find such documentation, and that it probably does not exist, this point is not in contention, not just because the Compendium lacks the information I was asking about (and believe me, it was the first place I looked), but also because Egan himself has visited this thread and not shed any light either way on the topic. But Egan could not possibly have visited this thread if it didn't exist in the first place, and neither could anyone else. The point, the original point of contention that brought on the debate between the two of us was this line: From which I percieve that you believed I had stated that VT-102 was the only training plane available to the Macross' entire air force. This belief was reinforced when I replied, saying that is not what I said and you replied: Which referred to: in which I was referring that any and all "proof" that ALL VF-1D craft which relied upon the callsign (VT-102) and the seat designations (Capt. Dagger and Trainee) only proved that this particular VF-1D shown in the first episode of SDF Macross was a trainer, and did NOT prove that ALL VF-1D craft were trainers. I even gave examples of other training craft that appear in SDF Macross that were not VF-1D Valkyries, and an example of a second VF-1D that appeared that was not a trainer, and someone else provided a third VF-1D that was also not used in a training role. Then you dropped that argument entirely to argue semantics about how I worded the initial question of this thread when I had referred back to it. You then told me, in no uncertain terms, that there was no proof either way, even though that itself cannot be proven without having access to all documentation that has ever existed on the series and your own personal Froating Head to tell you himself that there is no answer either way. At this point you then stated: I replied by informing you of the existance of the Compendium, in which many such details the developement teams in charge of such an anime had enough time to lose in working out. Then you stated: I have, to this point, been unable to find this 6 line paragraph you wrote that addresses how this thread "became a mess because of some sort of misreading and/or misinterpretation". Was it this one? If so, I do not see where in the paragraph this particular point is addressed. I read it as you stating that there is obviously more than one training Valkyrie available to the Macross' forces, and then some speculation that this is not the VF-1D's only position and other varients might also be used as trainers. I, again, pointed out that no one had questioned that there was more than a single training craft available. So now, at this point, I believe that you misread my statement and refuted what you had previously thought I'd said, and that we agree there's undoubtedly more than one training craft available. If this is the case I was mislead by your own replies that seemed to indicate that it was others, and not yourself, who had made this mistake, and going over this thread I can see no others making these arguments. That brings us to where we are now.

I was agreeing with you, then pointing out that you came in, told me I was wrong about something, then reworded my own statement, changing none of the facts, and used it as your reasoning. The fact remains that no one in the entire thread, except for you, has brought up the idea that anyone was even arguing that there existed only a single training fighter shared amongst the entire Macross fighter compliment. Yet you have time to argue a point that you freely admit you do not have the time to research. You are also still missing the entire point of the thread, which is asking if any such documentation exists, as for a long time now, many people on these boards and others would argue one way or the other as fact, with no proof to back their beliefs up. This thread was prompted by such a debate months ago.

I don't think Minmay's personality was all that different between the DYRL? Minmay, and the Minmay from the tv series, but at the very end after she had matured a lot. In the movie, instead of showing the younger, dity Minmay personality, they skipped to her after she had grown up a bit and had matured.

AMEN! So....since Final Fantasy IV then?

The second CD also has a picture of a Strike Valkyrie on it.

http://steampowered.net/temp/hikaru-cdbook.jpg

And apparently, the response is 'no'... Basically the same question, worded differently. However, as Egan himself has not settled the VF-1D debate himself, we are left to assume that at this time there is no official answer, one way or the other. But that's not the issue. No on, no one in this entire thread has even hinted that there may be only a single craft for training in all of SDF Macross. We are specifically discussing the D variant of the VF-1 Valkyrie. Is it, or is it not a dedicated trainer variant, with proof to back up the belief. You'd be surprised at just how many little details have been worked out by the show creators. Check out http://www.anime.net/macross/ sometime.

I gotta mostly agree with Graham. For the most part, all of the animation has been spectacular for the entire OVA. Even all of my old friends from art school, who majored in animation, have been impressed with what we've seen. So, whenever someone knocks either the 2D or the 3D in the show completely, I wince. There are snippets of less than spectacular animation here and there, but overall the animation has been better than Plus, despite the almost universal approval it's animation gets. I am happy with the characters, though it seems several forumers never shook off Shin's initial impression of the cold, emotionless, stereotypical lone wold anime hero...even though he shook that stereotype off fairly early into the first episode. I do worry about how all of this is going to end. There's been a lot of buildup so far and I'm wondering how Kawamori intends to resolve it all in a single episode. I think it can be done, and done well at that, but will they? I am looking forward to finding out.

The major complain I heard about Xenosaga is that it never really goes anywhere. I know a couple of people who played the game all the way through, constantly expecting something amazing and cool to happen, only to be incredibly dissapointed and bitter that nothing ever did. I haven't played the game myself, but I often see people going on and on about games or anime or movies claiming that the reason many didn't like them was because the story was so deep, when this isn't always the case. Some quasi-philosophical dialogue and MTV camera work doesn't make a bland, simple story into something deep and meaningful.

I'd reccomend saving up your money and grabbing the individual 3 disc box sets one at a time whenever you can. I waited well over a year before I was finally able to afford it myself, and it was well worth the wait. AnimEigo did an incredible job restoring the footage and in their subtitles.

I stand by that statement, read it altogether in context. The questions was, "Are all VF-1D Valkyries training aircraft?", the only proof anyone has brought up to say that all VF-1D Valkyries are training aircraft is in that VT-102 from the first episode of SDF Macross was, in fact, a training aircraft. However, we see the VF-1D twice in the show. Once as a training aircraft, once in a non training role. Hence, my argument was that a single VF-1D shown in a training role does not at all prove that ALL VF-1D Valkyries are training craft, anymore than having Capt. Dagger's name on one of the seats proves that all VF-1D Valkyries are assigned to Capt. Dagger. My argument is reinforced by the second apperance of the VF-1D in a non-training role. That is my argument exactly.

Huh? Random encounter, man.. you know.. walking around when an imp, a wizard, and a golem jump you... I know what a random encounter is, but what about them? They weren't a problem in 1-6.

I don't get. Why would they all be assigned to Captain Dagger? It seems obvious to me he was the instructor assigned to that aircraft. Before I'm accused of saying all the 1D's are trainers I don't think they are, just that VT-102 is. That's exactly what I'm saying. We have an example of ONE(1) VF-1D that is a training craft. It is assigned to an instructer by the name of Captain Dagger, and one student pilot. It is labeled VT-102. The proof is the VT-102 stamped on the side of the Valkyrie, and the names labled on the cockpit seats. However, none of this is proof that the entire line of D variant VF-1 fighters are trainers, any more than it is proof that all VF-1D Valkyries have an instructor named Captain Dagger assigned to the back seat. All this evidence only really applies to that one(1) specific VF-1D. Not only that, but the only other VF-1D we see in the series is shown in a non-training role, and the only other training Valkyries we see are cannon fodders, including a cannon fodder VF-1J, and then the VT-1 from the movie. Yes, but having only one trainer VF for the entire pilots crew of the fortress looks a bit weird aswell IMO: I mean it makes sense they train several pilot recruits simultaneously (all the more as we can clearly see in the show Hikaru training with several other persons...) hence the 'necessity' to have several trainer planes and of course several instructors too As for the Cpt Dagger name thing: it's probably because the drawer had to put a name for the purpose of making his schema more realistical... I'd simply consider this as some sort of private joke -similar to a video-game easter egg- or even simply an 'error', something like that: it happens frequently in real-life with architecture or industrial plans so why not in an anime? Whoever said anything about only one trainer for the entire Macross fighter compliment?

Huh?