Prime

What you're missing, is that the level of Protoculture technology shown in Zero is so far above that used to create the ASS-1 & Zentradi fleets, that it is no longer mechanical, it's biological. Do you honestly thing the APHOS is a metalic technological creation?

No. A machine does not have to be metalic, and I never said the AFOS was. You are applying your preconceptions to what I said.

The thing about it that amazed the U.N. scientists was that its organs mimiced the systems of the Macross. This is the same level of technology that was used to create the EVIL bodies which the Protodevelin stole in 7. In turn, Sara's song effected all living thigns around the island. Not just the plants, & rocks, but the animals, bugs, birds, and apparently Shin.

So is your theory that the AFOS was affecting the surroundings when Sara was singing, or did Sara have a special power that other humans do not? Or is it a combination of the two? I'm asking because I am not sure myself.

It was no different than the phenomenon Fire Bomber generates in Macross 7. Praising one, while damning the other, is just idiotic.

No it isn't. I can like Zero and hate M7. I mentioned earlier that it isn't really the concepts in M7 that I don't like. It is the implementation. I can like Zero because I think the more fantastic elements fit in pretty well with the context of the story, and like the visuals and so on. I can hate M7 because I don't like how Basara crams his idology down everyone's throat and sings the same crap song over and over again. And I can not like Valkyries controlled by musical intruments. And I can think that some M7 characters with things like bird wings look ridiculous and not like silly squadron names like "Pink Pecker."

It is entirely possible to like one series and not the other.

Everyone needs to stop being so damned insecure with things they "think" are too fantastic. The whole series from the start was fantastic, as is most fiction.

Sure. But people are still free to like certain elements of one series and not like other elements from other series. I go by impressions and do not force myself to like things or try and reason out why I should or shouldn't. I either do or I don't.

On another track, I do have one question about the timeline though. According the to the Macross Compendium, the events of Macross Zero take place in September of 2008, and of course the beginning of the original series was February 2009, or a 5 month timeframe. Roy was a test pilot for the VF-1 as seen in flashbacks, correct? When did those flashback events occur? The VF-1 is already set to start production by the time the events of Zero occur. But IIRC he meets Claudia during that time, so should that put it after Zero? Can someone clear that up for me?

I knew it was popular, but I didn't realize it was that popular...

fact: Zentraedi's are not humans.  They are an alien race of clones. They may share some genetic code with humans, but they're still aliens. They are not a deprived form of humanity.

So Minmay affecting the Zentraedi thru her singing is supernatural because of the fact that the Zentraedi were Aliens and she's a mere human.  Minmay's singing did not have the same effect on her fellow humans.  Bodolza later just accepted that it may be protoculture or protoculture-legacy.

I don't see how any of what you just said makes it supernatural. Everything is explained in terms of natural laws. The Zentraedi, whether alien or not, still exist and function on the set of natural laws in the universe. They do not require anything beyond natural laws to exist that would make them supernatural. The same with music's affect on them. Their reaction can be explained using natural laws of psychology/physiology, and thus it is not supernatural.

Prime, thanks for your reply. I think we are roughly on the same wavelength. But your answers to my "mechanism" questions really don't amount to much more than "it's Protoculture technology...and stuff", do they? To me, that isn't much different from M7, where Spiritia and Sound Energy are presented as natural phenomena which aren't well known or well understood (at least until Dr. Chiba gets a handle on them).

Good point. To be honest, this is a good discussion because it is forcing me to examine Zero a bit closer. Going in I didn't like Macross 7, and in the end I liked Zero a lot. For one reason or another, Zero just "worked" for me. I am thinking I feel that way because for me at least the presence of the Protoculture makes things more feasible to me. The AFOS certainly stands out as a bizarre thing in the Macross universe. But it is made much more real and acceptable to me because of the direct tie ins to the original series and the Macross itself (the main gun and anti-gravity generators mentioned earlier).

That and the fact that the Protoculture have been a part of the Macross story from the beginning. Because of this connection to the original series, I seem to be much more willing to accept its presence and affects in Zero. And it indeed does come down to "Protoculture technology and stuff" because the fact is there isn't really much else to go one. Kawamori has never been one to fill in the details. Like I said earlier, I don't think my problem with M7 is the concept of spiritia so much, but the fact that it leads to Valkyries flown by musical instruments and a guy I don't like singing the same song over and over.

In neither case, ultimately, is there anything truly "supernatural" in the sense of "divine" or coming from outside the natural world. But at the same time, like M7, many of the phenomena in M0 are only tenuously connected to current science. Speaking to someone mind-to-mind, the way that Mao does with Shin in the final episode, has no concrete explanation even though it might be reasonable to see it as a manifestation of "ultra technology".

I guess I see it as all a product of Protoculture technology because to this point I haven't come up with a better theory, as opposed to it being blatently obvious. From the impressions I got from there series, there are three possibilities as I see it. The first is the one we've discussed where the AFOS has an affect on the Mayan people and the events in that area. The second is that Sara and Nora are different from other humans (genetically or otherwise) as a result of the tampering by the Protoculture long ago. Perhaps because of this they have powers beyond normal humans as seen in the show. The third possibility is some combination of the two. Perhaps the AFOS can only interact with Sara and potentially Mao, and it enhances their latent powers.

Personally, I tend to think either 1 or 3 is the most likely. But that being said, IIRC Aries had mentioned that Hasford had a theory that once upon a time humans could make rocks float. But in the end, it all comes down to the Protoculture.

Compare the "unreal" aspects of Macross. (BTW, I agree that Minmay's effect on the Zents isn't one of the unreal aspects.) Antigravity generators, space fold technology, force fields, thermonuclear reaction engines--none of them exist today, but the principles behind them have all been explored to a greater or lesser extent in serious scientific speculation. That, and the fact that they're all well-accepted science-fictional conventions grounds SDF Macross in the "hard SF" genre.

Indeed. There is nothing in the original series that is greatly outside the standards of science fiction. Also, these concepts are introduced at the beginning of the series and are used to establish the rules and concepts the series will use going forward.

Now you might reject the notion that there are degrees of unreality. Perhaps it's purely a matter of convention and cultural conditioning by which we consider one fictional element to be SF and another to be fantasy. Even so, in order to sustain disbelief and be comprehensible to the reader, "realistic" fiction must have a rules that it sets and adheres to. Otherwise, literally "anything goes".

I agree completely. The viewer will base the realism on the set of rules and conventions and base their suspension of disbelief on those rules. That is why someone can enjoy Star Wars and accept the concepts within it, and still not like the supernatural aspects of Zero and M7.

Consequences do not follow from actions. Plot complications become meaningless and arbitrary, as do plot resolutions. If you accept this thesis, then the "problem" with MZero is that it introduces such vastly different rules as to make it incomprehensible and unbelievable to many fans of the earlier series. The same of course applies to M7, but M7 also turns some people off in other ways.

Although I enjoyed Zero, the supernatural aspects of the show certainly are a stretch, and I find them too much in M7. And I can certainly see why many Macross fans do not like the show because of it. I had a problem with it in the first few episodes, when there were times when I was saying "WTF?"

But I think Zero succeeds in grounding these aspects, albeit after the fact, by tying the AFOS and and the floating ships and such back to the Protoculture and the familiar concepts from the first series to show that it is indeed a machine that is in part comparable to the Macross or parts thereof. Once this connection was made, I could resolve my suspention of disbelief and allow it to be explained as the AFOS/Protoculture allow these events to be possible, even if I don't completely understand the mechanisms.

My earlier example applies: you can be a fan of The Godfather and the Exorcist, but still be turned off if the rules from one story are suddently imported into the other.

To take that point one step further, I think people could accept a movie about a godfather and demons if the premise and concepts for the story were set up from the beginning.

SDF-TV has supernatural stuff.

Minmay's singing specifically affecting or softening up the Zentraedi is considered supernatural and un-scientific.  It's so obvious.

I don't think Minmay's affect on the Zentraedi is considered supernatural or unscientific. Now there may be information about this from Kowamori that states the contrary, but the impression I get is that it is more of a psychological affect. The affects of culture shock is a real concept. In this case it was not just two cultures colliding and the Zentraedi being adversely affected. The fact that they had no culture to speak of and were specifically engineered/altered/programmed to avoid such cultures made the affects of that shock so much more pronounced. They were completely horrified by the coexistance of males and females, which had nothing to do with singing. So I think it was Earth's culture as a whole that blew the Zentraedi's minds, and singing is just one of the more powerful aspects of that culture. I don't believe there was any indication that it was because of some supernatural/magic power of singing.

The point is, the events seen in Macross are easily explained without the presence of the supernatural, and culture shock is a very scientific concept. And the extreme shock the Zentraedi displayed is perfectly reasonable considering their background.

Turning to Macross-Zero, Sarah's singing and willpower controls the mechanical APHOS. There's nothing magical about it. It's just protoculture-tech presented in basic human mystical shamanic form.

That is the way I took it as well. Since humans were altered by the Protoculture to presumably be more like them, it makes sense that one of their machines would be able to operate under our control. Or it was designed to eventually be compatible with us as we evolved.

It also makes sense that Protoculture technology would seem magical to humans, considering how far advaced they were. It is like what ancient humans might think of cars and planes. Those would seem supernatural to them. And no doubt they would explain such things in terms of gods and religion and so on.

So, I really don't know where you guys are getting this "magic" stuff from Macross Zero and why some of you continue to refuse to accept that MZero directly ties-in to TV/DYRL and Plus story and presentation.  MZero is a genuine sci-fi story and not a sci-fantasy like M7.

Well, I think the term "magic" is used for a lack of a better one to discribe the flying rocks and the like that occures in Zero.

For me I found Zero ties in very well with the TV series and DYRL, because all the fantastic stuff we see is based on the Protoculture and their machines. It also shows how it relates to some of the technology we see in the original series (anti-gravity devices, the main gun, similar blood, etc.). This is one of the reasons why I think Zero works and M7 doesn't.

I'm no expert, but I'll take a stab at these from my impressions of the show. I'd be interested to hear what others think...

What is the mechanism by which Sara's willpower controls the Aphos?

Like I said above, I get the impression that the Protoculture machine was able to accept input from humans either because they made us more like them, or it was the machine's purpose to accept input from humans.

What mechanism allows Sara to see Mao kissing Shin;

I can remember this happening, but I can't quite remember if she was in the AFOS by this point or not. If she wasn't perhaps the AFOS can operate and somehow enhance the abilities of someone like the priestess (who has the same bloodtype to show a connection) without physical contact.

how does she make flowers bloom and plants grow;

This may also be explained by the above. Perhaps she had these abilities because she had the genetic connection to it (the blood) and the AFOS was in a reasonably close proximity. I'd be interested to learn if she had the same abilites on the other side of the planet away from the AFOS.

what allows Mao to project herself to Shin in the final battle?

I'm not sure about that one. I kind of get the impression that that was in Shin's head. Perhaps relayed through the AFOS?

How does these mechanisms differ from the Sound Energy and Spiritia of M7?

Again, I don't remember enough about M7, so I will leave that to someone else.

Thank goodness he got out safely...

Mamoru Oshii at the time kept getting sent razor blades hidden in envelopes from die-hard Urusei Yatsura fanboys because they claimed his interpretation of the characters and the show, to paraphrase, "raped their childhood".

Hmmm. And here I thought that phrase only got applied to Lucas...

I think the problem is that you're judging things by amero-centric story standards. The fact of the matter is, these concepts are far from alien & japanese series, and in fact, run rather rampant. I've pointed out on various occasions where the foundation for them was in the TV series, and when it comes right down to it, if you think giant robots & genetically engineered aliens that are whoo'd by emotions is hard sci-fi, then you've been diluting yourself all these years.

For me anyway, it isn't the concepts themselves that bother me so much. It is more the extreme transition from the science fiction base of Macross and Plus to M7. But probably more importantly, I really didn't like the implementation (characters, visuals, dialog, etc.) of the series as when as the new "magic" elements. I don't think that is necessarily because I am North American. Maybe I don't like the J-pop because of that, but there are certainly lots of other fantasy-ish stories that I love that are probably just as wierd as M7.

Besides which, going back to the Gundam example, the awareness of Newtypes & Newtype abilities didn't take effect until deep into its run. Amuro was touted as just being a luckily skilled pilot until much later when his Newtype abilities were revealed. Considering the nature of that story specifically, as well as Kawamori & Mikimoto's infatuation with it,  no one should be surprised with the direction the Macross story has taken.

I haven't seen that series so I can't really comment on that.

Amongst many other things, Star Wars borrows heavily from Japanese storytelling.

True. Many times Lucas has mentioned that he borrowed a lot from Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress."

You will listen to Basara's song!

No.

I'm looking forward to it.

a future Godfather movie had the Don fighting a bunch of devils.

Kick ass!!

I don't think that Macross 7 was aimed at a young audience at all. If that were the case, perhaps it would be easier for most people to understand the message of the show. The "fighting is not the answer" message that the show conveys is actually a very mature point of view.

It may be a mature attitude, but kids shows like Care Bears also have a "fighting is bad" message. It is certainly not something that is unique to Macross, and it certainly isn't beyond the storylines/themes of shows aimed at children.

Exactly what KingNor said. The original show didn't have any of this stuff in it, and while you're absolutly right in that it doesn't preclude it from existing, it doesn't lay the foundation for it, either.

The Force in Star Wars is acceptable because that was in the storyline right from the start. Same with the mysticsm in Evangelion, the NewTypes in most of the Gundam stories, the magic in Lord of the Rings... it's alright because those were intrinsic elements of the plots and stories, not seemingly (please note that word) tacked on later on.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Although I really don't have a big problem with the spiritia in itself. I just found Macross 7's heavily repeated J-pop songs, and some bizarre looking and acting characters and Valkyries to be too much of a deviation from the original Macross and Plus that got me into the series in the first place. I like those ones because of the sense of "realism" that they establish at the beginning.

Just my take...

I won't rehash the same arguments we've all been over time and again, but I thought I would point out that it's simply amazing at the difference of opinions each new Macross seems to get, and it's not like it's the same people taking the same sides, either.

Very true. I really enjoyed Macross Zero, and after a second viewing I found the "magical" (for lack of a better term) much more acceptable. I didn't like Macross 7 at all.

Since it is used as part of the Protoculture story elements, it made more sense to me at least. I think Kawamori did a better job of tying those things into "reality." Just things like the scientists looking at the AFOS and comparing systems to the Macross. Because of this, the whole floating ships and such made more sense in terms of the "science." The Protoculture was so far advanced it can only seem like magic to humankind. Obviously other's milage may very, but I think that the show makes the magic stuff as real as possible. And I come from the "don't like magic in Macross" camp.

IIRC it was more like 40 years beforehand...

Those huge cannons seem like they would really restrict the pilot's vision...

Sure the "magic" part is strange and has no direct link to the original series IMO

I know what you are saying, but I think there is a link in the sense that we learn more about the Protoculture, which does link it to the original series...

Whoever is piloting that Valkyrie must be drunk. So I guess that means it's Focker...

Ah, a little too subtle...I thought the "baked Hory Froating Head" was the only joke.

Curse my inability to express myself with the written word!

As for M7, I just thought the dude with the wings was pretty funny looking.

"Magic" in SDF Macross/DYRL and M+ is highly debatable. (Evidence: the debate we had upthread.)

I was using the term "magic" in jest, since as you point out there have been debates about it already.

Someone should come up with a definite of "Macross" one of these days.

Transforming planes/robots + music + magic + baked Hory Froating Head = Macross

Or this... the palladium books concoction.

http://www.robotechresearch.com/rpg/mecha/...f-1r/vf_1r.html

Man, that site is one of the sorriest ripoffs I've ever seen... no wonder is robotech... they even named one valk "Kawamori"... what kind of vermin made such crap? it's one of the things that truely makes me happy I'm on the macross side, it's the true side, not that turd and complete ripoff of designs that never had anything to do with that POS we all know.... Robosh.it. I wonder if the guys who made that site have any soul... what a lame excuse of a site is that...

Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think.

I just got Battlecry a little while ago and I'm one of those who like it quite a bit. I had heard that many people (especially around here) didn't like the game very much, so I guess I went in with low expectations. But in the end I was pleasantly surprised, and found that it provided a fun experience despite its flaws.

On the good side, all the versions of the VF-1 are included as well as one custom one. It is nice having all the different paint schemes, which include most of the famous ones from the show. Flying around in a VF-1S with Skull 1 colours is a lot of fun. IMO it does a pretty good job of providing an arcade experience of flying a Valkyrie. Especially the air/space missions were fun for just flying around and blowing stuff up (like in the Party Crashers mission). The franetic pace of battles from the show are captured well.

There is a bit of a learning curve, but overall I found the controls to be pretty good and they soon become second nature, as is switching between modes. Also the "HUD" is pretty simple and straight foward and doesn't overwhelm you with information like Macross VO did for me. I like the cell shaded look a lot and it made the game look like the show, although I may be in the minority. You will have to decide for yourself if a real-life looking game is important to you. There are tons of missions, and lots of things to unlock like medals, VFs, bonus versus missions, and paint schemes. So as far as content goes, there is a lot there.

I found the animations of the Valkyries to be very well done, and in the XBox version at least they were very smooth. The animations for the other mecha like destroids and pods seem adequate at least, and aren't particularly noticable either way due to the frantic pace of the game.

On the down side, the biggest complaint I had was the real seperation between the air and ground missions. The artifical ceiling is pretty annoying and more or less eliminates fighter mode in most ground missions. There are also invisible walls where in some cases you'll turn to go down a street and you find you can't. Why not just put a wall there?

Like others have said the difficulty of the missions varies wildly with no descernable order. Personally I found the ground missions to often be tougher than the air missions, but this might be because most escort missions tended to be on the ground. It would have been nice if there was an option to skip a couple of missions, so that you wouldn't get stuck if you couldn't complete a certain one. And yes, the Valkyrie is missing its wings in battroid mode, but I hadn't noticed this until someone pointed it out to me.

As for the story, of course it would have been nice if it was Macross, but it is also nice to have a game in English. Really the story is fairly neglegable and only serves to bridge the missions together. So it is quite easy to imagine that you are in the Macross universe. Besides, my first introduction was through Robotech and I liked it as a kid, so the trip down memory lane wasn't all bad to me.

I think it is worth making a few points about the difficulty of certain missions. There are certain things to remember that can make life much easier. A lot of missions have tricks. For example, with escort missions usually only certain units go for your protectee. In aerial ones, only fighter pods attack the target and the rest go after you. In ground missions, only pods go after the target and things like the male power armour and fighter pods go after you. So if you can prioritize your targets it makes it much easier to complete these types of missions. Other missions have tricks that could almost be considered glitches. Many people complain about the Cat's Eye mission, but if you just fly around it releasing flares/chaff, you can complete the mission without firing a single shot.

Also, I find that the different modes can be more useful than people give them credit for. Often people complain that battroid is useless in aerial missions. I don't find this at all. It is very useful when an enemy flies by at close range. In this case you can quickly switch to battroid, turn quickly, and blast them with the gunpod. However, it is important to remember that by default the battroid hovers in the air. Thus it is very important to hit the boosters so that you move around, otherwise you will get blasted.

Whew, I wrote way more than I intended. So in a nutshell, I think the game is a bargain at $10.

then what does gamlin look like?

I didn't say that Isamu was the only one that looked like a bobblehead.

No it is not all official. What is "Official is that the TV series has the "Official" story and the movie the "Official designs.

Sorry I thought you were saying that certain parts of Macross were not official in terms of not being sanctioned by Kowamori.

But in any event...what Keith said.

but why do civilians need Valkries?

They needed some place to put their guitars?

j/k