Prime

Yeah, the whole thing seems to be such a huge pain in the ass...

As far as I know there is only one "script" and "release" of boot Zero DVD right now... they all are garbled engrish in the subs and you are much better off with the DL'ed ones which actually do vary between similair crap and quite good subs.

The ones that I got off bittorrent I am quite pleased with, both from a sub standpoint and the visual quality. I'm not totally sure how close the sub is to the true dialog, but it seems decent enough for me to understand some of the finer points of the story. So I have no real interest in getting a set with poor subs.

Kevin Lam at Valk Exchange is the supplier I'd recommend. He is top notch and is more "your own backyard" than some unknown on eBay. Support the local boys first is my motto and Kev's great service will keep you coming back.

I'm all for that. I'm much more comfortable ordering from him than going the ebay route. I'll pick it up from there then.

The only reason I would get the MZero boots would be for the box art. I can't believe I paid $30+ for eps. 1-2, with horrible subtitles and a video problem in the ep. 2 disk. But the latest boots, with all five episodes, may be a reasonable last resort if you don't have the ability to download fansubs and burn them to DVD or VCD. (For help with which, see my signature.)

Perhaps burning the copies I have is the way to go then. I'll take a look at the information you provide with your link and see what is the best option. I may end up bugging you for more info at some point in the future.

FX is the "maker" of the Perfect Edition. When we say the "FX Edition" we mean "Perfect Edition".

Excellent. I assume that VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE.COM is a good place to order this from?

As for future releases of Zero pretty much all of the "DVDs" out there macross wise (outside of a handful) are bootlegs. Boots by their nature are cheap (in material and quality) so a "better" Zero is a nebulous thing. Someone could actually hire someone who understands the english language to retranslate and resub Zero for the bootleggers and then re-release it with subs that make sense... but that rarely if ever happens. Most of the time the bootleggers just rip the same old cut they have on different discs with different art.

The only other option is to hold out hope for an R1 release. 

Yeah, I understand that most are bootlegs and that the quality isn't going to be the same a production version. But I was just wondering if anyone had heard of versions with better subs and decent image quality on the horizon. If not, I guess too bad for me. I may just look into burning the downloaded subbed versions I have now...

Best choice is the FX DYRL....Anamorphic video.  Digital Stereo sound.  I'd get this DVD before M. Zero.

Is the FX the same things as the Perfect Edition? If not, does anyone have a link for the FX version?

Also, does anyone know of future plans to release better versions of Zero?

I've decided to bite the bullet and add to my Macross DVD collection and hopefully get DYRL and the Zero series. I searched around the boards a bit and there seems to be various options, like the FX version of DYRL and so on. I am wondering what the current "state of the art" versions are for each of these shows.

I live in Canada which IIRC is Region 1, and I have a high-def widescreen TV. What might potentially be my best options, and who would it be best to order from? Thanks for any help.

Being in Canada I was exposed to Robotech in the mid-80's and was hooked. Then when Macross Plus came out here I picked it up and that converted me to Macross proper. Then I searched other Macross shows out and seeing things like DYRL and Zero and so on only re-enforced my love for that universe.

Personally, I think the VF-11 similarity is too strong to just ignore.

You could be right, of course.

no offense to any RT fans out there but if HG wants anyrespect here i hope they just choose to use their own brand new designs on this new show they supposedly are making. you want people to watch it then give them something new dont make quality anime into 60s and 70s quality kung fu dubs by ripping the visuals and trying to fit your own story.

I believe they are using designs from the New Generation...

but what this has to do with MZero i don't know.

Well, my original point was that even if the stories for Zero and M7 have similar elements, I can still like Zero and not M7 because there are other parts of Zero (visuals, music, mecha design and so on) that make it much more enjoyable for me.

And all that came up because Keith believes all my reasons for not liking M7 are superficial.

I couldn't disagree more. If that was the case, every movie with an excellent story would be a blockbuster hit, and every action movie would be a bomb. There are other factors that go into a show/movie that also increase or dectract from the entertainment value. I'm sure you don't need me to provide you with examples.

Your supposition being that they are all good stories. A good story can be told with animation, live action, ice cream sticks, light bright, etc. A poorly told story is poor irregardless of the medium used. With that said, not liking visual presentation has nothing to do with the value of the story being told in it.

I know that good stories can be told through a wide variety of means. A visual presentation may have nothing to do with the value of a story, but it can have everything to do with the enjoyment a viewer gets from the show. My point is that a poorer story with better visuals/other elements is potentially more entertaining to a viewer than a better story with poorer visuals/other elements.

It has been many years since I have seen it, but to my recollection it actually is a closer adaptation of the novels than Peter Jackson's versions. Are you saying that if the animated had been completed it would have been a better than the movies (assuming that a closer adaptation is the better story)? Would there be no chance that even with a worse version of the story people might like Jackson's versions more anyway?

Closer to the novels???? Go rent the animated version & come back to this topic.

Like I said, it has been many years, but I don't remember such large changes such as Faramir taking Frodo to Osgiliath and the Ents deciding not to go to war in the animated version, for example. But it could be I just don't remember.

In any event, my point is the same. Assuming for argument's sake that the animated version has the "better" story, it is still entirely possible that a viewer may still choose Peter Jackson's versions as more entertaining because of the excellent visuals and other elements. Visuals and the like may not affect the quality of the story, but they do affect whether a viewer finds the whole experience entertaining or not.

I was TRYING to suggest the possibility that Rawbooteck ripped the VF-11 head off for the YF-1R.

IIRC I think the developers mentioned that it was acutally based off an animation mistake.

Sorry I don't have a link for you...

Your all wrong. Gobots was the biggest influence on anime in the entire world.

Don't believe everything Cy-Kill tells you!

You can't go wrong with Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.

I would definitely recommend that as well. It is coming out in 4 episode sets (I have the first 2 so far). It seems to be easy to find here in North America.

One other fictional example I'd like to add, regarding the "cellular consciousness" concept: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (the ending of the original book; won't go into detail to avoid spoilers).

I wonder if the Valkyries in M7 were created by the Inifinite Improbability Drive?

But another issue that goes along with this idea is that there's no way of really knowing if another entity is endowed with consciousness, or if it only shows the outward appearance of consciousness. A standard scientific approach to this conundrum is pure positivism in the form of the Turing Test (which see): (roughly speaking) if you can't tell whether the entity on the other side of a conversation is a machine or a person, then it can be considered an intelligent being for all intents and purposes.

These issues relate to Macross in various ways. In M+, Sharon may be conscious, or she may simply be mimicking consciousness; there's no way of knowing. The moment when Isamu hears Myung singing is subject to multiple interpretations, only some of which might suggest there's something special about biological consciousness as distinct from electronic mimicry. Both M7 and MZero imply the existence of "higher powers", but they also strongly imply that all the "magic" is really no more or less than "supertechnology" (Clark's Third Law). This isn't to say that there aren't spiritual overtones to both shows. There are. But because the "magical" elements of the shows are presented as "scientific", the shows don't necessarily advance a supernatural or divine form of spirituality. Instead, M7 & M0 can be seen as offering a "positivistic spirituality" which acknowledges the limitations of our understanding, values life and humanity (in the broadest sense), and argues against the arrogance of power.

Much better explanation than I gave.

Well said.

The mechanism was "Sara." Whether she realized she had the ability or not, her power extended to the point of being able to levitate objects.

What gave her that power?

Her emotions.

Every other human has emotions too. Why aren't they floating rocks around everywhere? The difference must be more than bloodtype.

But the music is being used to tell the story, and so is a part of the presentation. So it has an affect on how the show as a whole is viewed buy the audience. Since I do not like the music, it detracts from the overall experience of the show.

The music isn't being used to tell the story, it's just a thematic component of it. And while liking the muisc does help, not liking it doesn't detract away from the story being told. Hell, with a diversity of musical styles in general, there are always bound to be some styles that some don't like.

It might not detract from the story, but it does detract from the experience of watching the show. If someone doesn't like the music, as a result they are going to enjoy the show less than they otherwise might.

I disagree that it is not funnier, since on of the definitions of funny is "beyond or deviating from the usual or expected." Since I find that using said control scheme deviates greatly from the standard norm (even the standard norm in Macross up to that point and for the most part thereafter). Thus I find it funny.

Here's my question, do you not believe that an alternate control scheme as shown in 7 is not physically capable of existing? Its dynamic is clearly shown to be similar to standard, just with a different visual presentation. It's not like the U.N. Spacy junked everything & replaced it with the Kai designs.

Having it physically capable of existing doesn't mean it can't come across as funny. Cosmo Kramer exists, and people find him funny.

But our culture doesn't use pinapple control schemes. If it did, then sure the current control scheme would seem funny. That fact is we don't. In any event, surely you can see why people other than yourself may potentially find it funny

That's my entire point. The Kai Valkyries weren't intended to be normal, they weren't military use Valkyries, and they weren't used for fighting.

Again, doesn't mean that people won't find them funny.

As for straight military hardware, the first two Macross series I was exposed to were the series and Plus. These contain more or less straight military hardware. And in Zero all human hardware is the same way. M7 is decidely not. And Yes, Macross has never been about the hardware, but apart from M7 that has been the setting and style that the series has been in. And I really like that bout it. M7 deviates from that style quite a bit, and so I like it less so. If Macross had had that style from the beginning, I would have been more open to it.

Macross 7 also maintains it. The colony fleet, & all protective craft of that colony (save for the Kai Valkyries) use the same mlitaristic look of past Macross series. It's not like everything was suddenly made out of bubblegum or something. Besides which, the nature of a (good) sequel is to grow & expand upon what came before. With over 30 years of technological advancement between the two shows, there are naturally going to be some new aspects. Whether you like them or not is moot, as long as you accept them as part of the story.

Whether I like them or not is not moot (to me anyway). If I don't like them and it decreases my enjoyment of the show (along with the other things), then there comes a point where I decide that I don't want to watch the show any more. There is more to a show than just the plot.

And that was alien technology, and the show presented it in such a way as it held my suspension of disbelief, for whatever reason.

Choice perhaps? Considering that humans are the inheriters to the Protoculture, was the technology truly that alien? Nor is it strange that humans would slowly move along the same routes of progression as the Protoculture?

The AFOS looked pretty alien to me.

Well, I do like the original series/DRYL songs more than M7 by quite a bit, but even that isn't necessarily my style of music.

Does it not being your style of music prevent you from enjoying the story?

No. But it can certainly prevent me from enjoying the show.

But they aren't nearly so annoying about it.

I don't know, I find being blown up by the AFOS far more annoying (from a character in the story aspect) than a request to listen to a song.

It was a joke.

Indeed. If they did and it was in the original TV series, I would have much less problem with it by the time it showed up in M7.

If everything was there in SDF M TV, then it would have been a significantly longer series, without need for a sequel. The nature again of sequels to grow & expand upon what came before. If you want to see nothing except for repeating storylines, I suggest you watch Gundam (mind you I like Gundam, but it is literally a continuing cycle of the same basic story setup).

I'm wasn't talking about storyline.

I don't see how they are superficial at all. They are the means by which the story is told, and so they are part of the overall experience of the show. Even if the story is good, if the elements detract from it in the eyes of the viewer, then the experience will be poorer as a result. I don't just strip away every aspect of the show down to the basic plot and ignore the rest. I look at the show as a whole.

They're superficial in that they're only surface elements, i.e. not liking someone because they're black or asian, instead of listening to what they have to say.

But they are still elements used in the show to provide entertainment to the viewer. If those elements in fact reduce the enjoyment of the viewer, then they can prevent said viewer from enjoying the show.

It's like if Basara was instead a purple dinosaur with a high-pitched voice named Barney. The message and storyline may be the same, but viewers who like humans as characters are probably not going to a like a show as much with Barney telling everyone to listen to his song.

I suspect that people would like the Lord of the Rings movies less if they were done in the style of South Park.

Even if I would like that.

If a story is good, doesn't matter how it's told.

I couldn't disagree more. If that was the case, every movie with an excellent story would be a blockbuster hit, and every action movie would be a bomb. There are other factors that go into a show/movie that also increase or dectract from the entertainment value. I'm sure you don't need me to provide you with examples.

Take the Bakshi LOTR interpretation for instance. Terribly told version of the story, which would have been much more acceptable had it been told more accurately despite the lower grade of animation.

It has been many years since I have seen it, but to my recollection it actually is a closer adaptation of the novels than Peter Jackson's versions. Are you saying that if the animated had been completed it would have been a better than the movies (assuming that a closer adaptation is the better story)? Would there be no chance that even with a worse version of the story people might like Jackson's versions more anyway?

Apparently because he slaughters them in Revenge of the Sith.

Nah, Lucas would never even hint to the slaughtering of children, he doesn't have the nuts anymore.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Could be. And with M7 I was disappointed.

That's too bad. But here's another question. Despite your dislike of the asthetic aspects of the show, how did you feel about the depth put into the history of the Protoculture conflict?

It was OK. I liked learning more about the Protoculture and thus more about the Macross universe. The majority of the characters I could care less about though. I got more enjoyment from reading about the events in the Macross timeline...

It has nothing to do with the location. If the events of Zero had happened on a fleet colony that would be fine. If Zero had Valkyries with guitar control sticks and Edgar was playing a ukulele I probably wouldn't have liked Zero as much either.

How do you feel about the core aspect of Macross being people sharing their emotions with one another through music? You can't do that without playing muisc afterall.

It's fine with me. But it isn't what attracted me to the series.

Kind of like artillery?

No, more like not putting all of your eggs in one basket. In addition to having a defending force, also having a peace negotiation gruop.

It was another joke.

I think he is refering to characters with superhuman powers. I don't think any humans in Plus had supernatural powers, did they (dispite what Isamu would have you believe)?

Aside from Myung's ability to reach Isamu's heart with her song when there's no way he would be able to audibly hear her?

I never thought about it much. I guess I always figured that it was through either the YF-19's sensors or the channel between Sharon and the 19/Isamu.

Or Guld's ability to control the YF-21 with his mind?

More like the YF-21's ability to get input from Guld's mind? Are you saying that Guld was the only being that could have controlled the YF-21?

A computer which can think for itself & feel emotions?

Sharon is not human character.

In any event, I always wondered whether she really felt emotions, or whether she is simply passing the Turing test on a grand scale.

EDIT: I see that ewilen has posted about the Turing test as I wrote this. Good on him.

Perhaps she was just a super complex machine that had gotten into an unstable state? I work and develop software for very complex systems, and such things do happen (the unstable state I mean) in the real world. Since Sharon's "output" was designed to appear as emotions (for her performances), an unstable state could perhaps appear as behavior she displays at the conclusion. But in the end, she may still be just a machine with no soul. If true, the characters could never know the difference.

Just something I wondered...

None of that seems superhuman to you?

No.

With all that said, as someone mentioned already we are talking ourselves to death. I know why I don't like Marcoss 7 and like Zero. I can't control whether you think it is all superficial or not, so I guess there is no need for me to continue to try and convince you otherwise.

And I have been watching Macross 7 (gasp).....for over 2 years now......

(hides face in hands as tears well up....)

Actually, I thought the VT came from VeriTech.

Check out the brand new super anti protodevlin valk, custom made just for the Macross 7 fleet to their specifications... and equiped with a speaker on it's butt..

That's from J-Decker you dummy.

Really? are you shure you want to call me a dummy?

hey dummy, mellow out

Only a dummy would say that.

 

Sorry, I had hit "Add Reply" instead of "Preview" when I was responding.

I blew your mind, didn't I?

OK. Then what was the mechanism that allowed her float rocks and the like? Is it just the way the universe works?

The mechanism was "Sara." Whether she realized she had the ability or not, her power extended to the point of being able to levitate objects.

What gave her that power?

Point taken. But the guy just annoys the hell out of me with the whole "you will listen to my song" thing. Over and over and over again. Also, I just hate all of his songs.

With the addition that every Macross series has had a different musical style. The musical style used for each show however doesn't have anything to do with the story being told.

But the music is being used to tell the story, and so is a part of the presentation. So it has an affect on how the show as a whole is viewed buy the audience. Since I do not like the jusic, it detracts from the overall experience of the show.

That wasn't a guy, that was Veffidas. All things considered, she had nothing to do with piloting the VF-17 Kai, she just liked to drum. Fundimentally though, using a guitar for a control stick is no funnier than using a stick for a control stick, it just so happens that one is an accepted norm, and the other is not.

I disagree that it is not funnier, since on of the definitions of funny is "beyond or deviating from the usual or expected." Since I find that using said control scheme deviates greatly from the standard norm (even the standard norm in Macross up to that point and for the most part thereafter). Thus I find it funny.

If in our culture we used pinapple shaped control mechanisms, that would make using sticks appear funny as well. Think outisde the box.

But our culture doesn't use pinapple control schemes. If it did, then sure the current control scheme would seem funny. That fact is we don't. In any event, surely you can see why people other than yourself may potentially find it funny.

Yeah, I think that looks ridiculous too. I don't like every little thing in Zero either.

What I'm gathering from most of your arguments, is that you're just not open to anything more than straight mlitary hardware. Problem is, Macross has never been about that.

Actually, I watched Ep5 Zero again last night, and I have to say that the design of the AFOS is growing on me. I do like the tie-ins with the various artifacts found on Maya. And certainly the Protoculture were very different, and so their technology is. That is why I didn't particularly have a problem with the AFOS, even if I found it really strange looking, from the beginning. There was no real precident set (that I have been exposed to anyway) for what Protoculture technology would look and be like.

As for straight military hardware, the first two Macross series I was exposed to were the series and Plus. These contain more or less straight military hardware. And in Zero all human hardware is the same way. M7 is decidely not. And Yes, Macross has never been about the hardware, but apart from M7 that has been the setting and style that the series has been in. And I really like that bout it. M7 deviates from that style quite a bit, and so I like it less so. If Macross had had that style from the beginning, I would have been more open to it.

Zero was also a far more condensed story, without room for more parody (although the villagers were the main source). I just think you're judging 7 unfairly in the face of its position in the larger picture.

I don't think I am being unfair to M7, because I am only judging it on my personal tastes and whether it provides enjoyment to me or not. I am not trying to convince others that they should see it as this or that. And I do judge it as a part of Macross as a whole.

The things I don't like in M7 are not in Zero. There are no Valkyries with musical instrument-like controls.

No, but there is the AFOS, with its song based controls.

And that was alien technology, and the show presented it in such a way as it held my suspension of disbelief, for whatever reason.

There are no characters who are constantly singing J-pop songs.

Out of curiosity, whats your position on Macross TV's J-pop songs.

Well, I do like the original series/DRYL songs more than M7 by quite a bit, but even that isn't necessarily my style of music.

There is no one constantly demanding that people listen to their song.

But there is a constant demanding that the military get their war & technology away from Maya, as well as constant warnings of bad Kadun.

But they aren't nearly so annoying about it.

There are no giant speaker-like Valkyrie contraptions.

If they had the technology in that Macross era....

Indeed. If they did and it was in the original TV series, I would have much less problem with it by the time it showed up in M7.

There are no shots of drummers playing while the cockpit canopy lowers, and so on. The absense of these things are some of the reasons why I like Zero and don't like M7.

All very supercial reasons, which have little to do with the story being told in either.

I don't see how they are superficial at all. They are the means by which the story is told, and so they are part of the overall experience of the show. Even if the story is good, if the elements detract from it in the eyes of the viewer, then the experience will be poorer as a result. I don't just strip away every aspect of the show down to the basic plot and ignore the rest. I look at the show as a whole.

I suspect that people would like the Lord of the Rings movies less if they were done in the style of South Park.

Even if I would like that.

I mean, hell, I like the Star Wars prequels. I deal a lot with people nitpicking the stuff I like.

Like "hey, why didn't any of those Jedi trainee kids rise up & take on Vader."

Apparently because he slaughters them in Revenge of the Sith.

Now, I'm not going to say that the directing style in M7 is bad, that is entirely based on the opinion of the viewer, however what I am trying to say is that it is different from the directing style shown in Zero. Different enough that those who despised Macross 7 and curse it's existance could come into Zero, see a lot of the same themes and elements in a similar context, but presented in a different way, and absolutely love the show.

Those expecting to see the same style setting each time are naturally going to be dissapointed when the story is continued in a new setting. Those who go in just for the story (I think) will be more welcoming of the changed setting each series takes place in..

Could be. And with M7 I was disappointed.

No it isn't. I can like Zero and hate M7. I mentioned earlier that it isn't really the concepts in M7 that I don't like. It is the implementation. I can like Zero because I think the more fantastic elements fit in pretty well with the context of the story, and like the visuals and so on.

That to me says that you find it ok for these things to occur on a tribal island, but not on a colony fleet in space...

It has nothing to do with the location. If the events of Zero had happened on a fleet colony that would be fine. If Zero had Valkyries with guitar control sticks and Edgar was playing a ukulele I probably wouldn't have liked Zero as much either.

in SDF music was used to SUPPORT the main fighting force and give them an edge.

Kind of like artillery?

And you're right in that Plus has no mention of these sorts of people, which is probably why that's my favourite Macross of the bunch.

And yet, you couldn't be more wrong.

I think he is refering to characters with superhuman powers. I don't think any humans in Plus had supernatural powers, did they (dispite what Isamu would have you believe)?

Move onto M7 and Zero.  They take things that were once based on real things like emotions and music, and turns them to some extent into super powers.

It is emotion and and it only seems like magic, thanks to technology.

Just so I can try and get my head around things, what was the technology that allowed Sara to move rocks? Was it because of the earlier alterations of her ancesters by the Protoculture? Did she not, in a sense, have super powers that most other humans did not possess? Didn't Basara have similar fantastic powers that most others did not possess?

And I found that the story was good enough to hold my suspension of disbelief enough for me to accept the "magical" parts, even if I didn't enjoy those elements as much.

"Any sufficient advance in technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Arthur C. Clark's 3rd Law.

Which is what I have said several times before, and this why I put the word "magical" in quotes.

*sigh* I seem to be saying the same things repeatedly.

[some good stuff snipped to save space]

Now, I'm not going to say that the directing style in M7 is bad, that is entirely based on the opinion of the viewer, however what I am trying to say is that it is different from the directing style shown in Zero. Different enough that those who despised Macross 7 and curse it's existance could come into Zero, see a lot of the same themes and elements in a similar context, but presented in a different way, and absolutely love the show.

Yes. You seem to have stated it better than I have been.

Now fast-forward to Macross 7, where it's not regular people. Now they've introduced the concept of Spirita and how only some "special" people can use it to fight and win, while everyone else is just fodder.

I don't know about everyone else being cannon fodder, but one thing that drew me into the original story was that it showed how powerful emotions, and the results of those emotions like music, love and culture are. Like others have said most/all the characters in the original Macross (and Plus) were more or less "ordinary" people who lived through extraordinary events.

Move onto M7 and Zero. They take things that were once based on real things like emotions and music, and turns them to some extent into super powers. Perhaps I would personally find this more acceptable if this was done from the beginning. But as a result it turns the story from a very human one were I can relate to the characters to one about superheros.

The newer theme of having characters with extraordinary powers is one of the things I dislike about Zero. But there are enough other elements in the series that I really enjoy (visuals, other characters, learning more about the Protoculture and Anti-UN) that it offsets the aspects I don't like. And I found that the story was good enough to hold my suspension of disbelief enough for me to accept the "magical" parts, even if I didn't enjoy those elements as much.

For M7, it doesn't have those extra elements I enjoy to offset the other things I don't like. In the end it just isn't an enjoyable series for me.

Perhaps you just weren't clear enough in what you said. The implication I got was that you percieved the AFOS to be nothing more than a machine left over from the Protoculture, as opposed to the actual living thing that it is.

Fair enough.

The AFOS was doing nothing. The energy Sara generated while singing was what affected her surroundings. Her blood is what gave her the connection with the AFOS, her energy is what let her tap into that connection.

OK. Then what was the mechanism that allowed her float rocks and the like? Is it just the way the universe works?

My problem with this argument being, those very same "fantastic elements" are used in 7 as well, in the very same contexts.

Again, it is not particularly the fantastic elements of M7 that I really don't like. It is the other aspects of the series.

Basara doesn't cram anything down anyones throat, nor does he force any ideology on anyone. He doesn't force Gamlin or any of the other U.N. pilots to follow suit with him, he just doesn't back down to them trying to force him to change what he's doing. Hell, he even acknowledges their purpose & the need for them to fight, but at the same time he works towards taking everyone out of that situation where there's a need to fight. And when it comes down to it, why is forcing a bullet into someone more unacceptable to you, then trying to sway their emotions through song?

Point taken. But the guy just annoys the hell out of me with the whole "you will listen to my song" thing. Over and over and over again. Also, I just hate all of his songs.

Actually, he sings two albums worth of songs over & over again. All things considered, Macross 7 problably has one of the highest counts of vocal songs actively used of any series, save Cowboy Bebop.

It has been a long time since I watched the series, but they all sounded more or less the same to me. And again, I didn't like any of them because I found them too J-pop for my liking. What can I say, I won't listen to Basara's song.

Had all Valkyries been "controlled" with the alternate setups, I could see your point, but with only "3" being so, it's a superficial argument. Especially when they weren't military use Valkyries. And as many seem to miss, they weren't "played" to fly, in fact it's specifically shown that they couldn't be played & used to fly at the same time. They were merely atlernately formed control setups.

I understand very well that the playing of the instruments isn't what controls the Valkyries. It doesn't change the fact that I find shots like a guy drumming as a fighter canopy lowers silly. And even if there are only three of them, there are featured prominantly, and so I find I am laughing at such things constantly throughout the show. What can I say, it just strikes me as funny.

And I can think that some M7 characters with things like bird wings look ridiculous

Pssst, AFOS.

Yeah, I think that looks ridiculous too. I don't like every little thing in Zero either.

Now that is just silly, the Pink Pecker team was awesome. Hell, anyone who can rank up as an elite team while flying pink VF-11's is alright with me. Besides which, they weren't even a prominent group, literally only shown for seconds in "1" flashback.

I was just using it as an example of things in the series that cause me to "LOL."

And it's more likely that you nitpick on one more than the other for entirely superficial reasons, when both have far more in common than not.

Then that could be said about any opinions then. I just didn't find a lot of the details in Zero funny whereas I did with M7. For whatever reason, Zero was done in such a way that I enjoyed the story more and it held my suspention of disbelieve. They may have a lot in common, but I found the presentations to be different enough for me to like one over the other.

You also seem to condemn things soley based on what you are & aren't comfortable with, instead of judging them by their own merit. Despite all your gripes, you've yet to establish why you like these very same concepts impletmented into Zero, but don't like them in 7.

The things I don't like in M7 are not in Zero. There are no Valkyries with musical instrument-like controls. There are no characters who are constantly singing J-pop songs. There is no one constantly demanding that people listen to their song. There are no giant speaker-like Valkyrie contraptions. There are no shots of drummers playing while the cockpit canopy lowers, and so on. The absense of these things are some of the reasons why I like Zero and don't like M7.

And even then, if it were a simple matter of dislike, that would be one thing, but when you go to the lengths of making fun of 7 despite all the similarities with Zero, that's where it gets confusing.

Well, I do want to state my opinions like everyone around here, and I do like to tease people. But hopefully you will see that I do not attack people (at least I try not to) for liking M7 or other things I personally don't like. I accept that others love the show and I respect that, and I do not intend to attack them personally for that. But that isn't going to prevent me from expressing my views on things.

I mean, hell, I like the Star Wars prequels. I deal a lot with people nitpicking the stuff I like.

  Come on MacPlus if you want to make fun of it go to the real thing

I never get tired of this one:

Where is Gamlin's left hand? And what is Basara reacting to?