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Seto Kaiba

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  1. Seto Kaiba
    Yeah, there is a pretty obvious American bias in the (New) UN Forces. They did throw the other key nations of the UN Government a bone when they were deciding on names for the first fourteen ARMD-class ships though. Around half had American Navy reference names, but you also had the Invincible, Clemenceau, Akagi, Minsk, Haruna, and Kiev. (Two were named for the first two prime ministers of the UN Government, leaving six ARMD-class ships with American names.)
  2. Seto Kaiba
    It doesn't have the thrust reverser ring, but it looks like the speaker pod's nozzle may be able to traverse a little... so they may be self-stabilizing.
  3. Seto Kaiba
    Let's be plain... this series didn't end, it just sort of lurched to a stop when it ran out of episodes.
  4. Seto Kaiba
    Well... the way it's described, the speaker pod launcher sounds like it's likely a cousin of the high-speed armor-piercing rocket launchers commonly found on Armored Pack. The line art for the speaker pods themselves shows they have a small rocket motor affixed to the rear, so the only major difference would be that the speaker pods aren't carrying a lethal load of OTM-based explosives. From the description, it sounds more like the ISC system is temporarily displacing the energy into super dimension space rather than into a specific "capacitor"...
  5. Seto Kaiba
    So... I'm guessing you forgot, or overlooked, when I pointed out that Master File was just regurgitating official material in that case? The technical and continuity article that was published in the official artbook This is Animation: Macross Plus (the "Variable Fighter Aero Report") explains a lot of the technical backstory leading up to the YF-19 and YF-21, including how the TV and DYRL VF-1s fit together and introduces a number of fighters that hadn't even appeared yet (like the VF-5000, VA-3, etc.). That'd be where the idea that the VE-1 and VT-1 were in use in 2009 came from... and it even offers an example or two of squadrons and ships using them from that period. Per Macross Chronicle, the VT-1C was made available as a civilian market variable aircraft circa 2030.
  6. Seto Kaiba
    *coughs and points to the link to M3 in his signature*
  7. Seto Kaiba
    Well, kinda... in VF terms, the DYRL? VF-1 represents the state of technology during the First Space War pretty much everywhere but aboard the Macross. The carrier "air" wings aboard the Macross and Prometheus were among the first to receive VF-1 Valkyries... which were drawn from the very earliest production blocks so their pilots had time to train on their new aircraft. As a result, a lot of their VF-1s belonged to Block 1 thru 5 (the "TV" version). They would have been upgraded gradually to the Block 6 spec had they not ended up cut off from Earth and logistical support.Even before the Macross left port and then accidentially teleported itself and said port to the fringes of the solar system, the carrier "air" wings assigned to the ARMDs and bases on Earth and its moon were receiving fighters from the same early blocks and also an assortment of craft from later blocks as production ramped up and incremental improvements were made in each new production block. So you had some cases like ARMD-02 where they were operating "TV" and "Movie" VF-1s side by side in 2009, with some training squadrons flying VF-1Ds while others had been issued the newer VT-1. After the war ended, the surviving VF-1 Valkyries were gradually upgraded to meet Block 6+ ("movie") specs... and the new VF-1s produced in that period were built to the Block 6 and later production standard. Officially, DYRL? and SDF:M are both equally valid competing views of the First Space War. Neither is a 100% "true" depiction of the events of the conflict, but the official publications generally favor the TV series for continuity purposes even while later shows and other narrative material favors the aesthetics of DYRL? for reasons explained previously.
  8. Seto Kaiba
    That's great, but apart from the very high probability that the Prometheus was where that VEFR-1 came from, I'm not really seeing the relevance... Movie props? There's a key point here I must not be communicating properly... those weren't props.The in-universe movie Do You Remember Love? used real VF-1 Valkyries and Zentradi mecha for its action sequences and stunts. Some of the ships, like Boddole Zer's mobile fortress, were faked up using holographic projections over smaller starships, but otherwise they used real military hardware. That the mecha in DYRL? are real in-universe was a detail established about 22 years back... and the same goes for many of the changes made to characters, etc. Official explanations like that the TV and Movie VF-1 are the same fighter built to two different production block standards came out of that period. (It is, as noted previously, not interchangeable with the real world movie that came out in 1984... as we've seen in-series evidence it contains scenes that were not in the 1984 film like the wedding of Max and Milia.)
  9. Seto Kaiba
    Slight hole in your theory... Windermere's war of independence was SEVEN years before the start of Macross Delta.
  10. Seto Kaiba
    The in-universe movie Do You Remember Love? was, yes, filmed about two decades after the war ended using (to a limited extent) actual VF-1 Valkyries, Zentradi Army mecha, and starships, sometimes aided by holography like how the Boddole Zer mothership was played by a West Point-class training ship.They used later production blocks of VF-1 because that's what was available... but the cosmetic differences are not period-inappropriate because those models of VF-1 were, in fact, in service during the First Space War. Also, because of the way there isn't one definitive version of the First Space War, there also may have been Block 6 VF-1s on the Macross. In later appearances, like Macross 30, a First Space War-era Hikaru is shown wearing a DYRL pilot suit and flying a Block 6 VF-1. The Macross wasn't carrying any atmospheric craft... and, to the best of my knowledge, the Prometheus was only carrying a handful of atmospheric craft like Sea Sergeant helecopters, ES-11 Cat's Eye recon planes, and Dragon II fighters, while the majority of its complement was 150 VF-1 Valkyries and a handful of Ghosts. The demonstrable, official answer is "No, they are not an anachronism". There were VT-1 units serving aboard the ARMD-02 before the war started, and aboard the ARMD-04 during the war. As we have seen, and I have pointed out, on many occasions... both the TV and DYRL versions of mecha exist in canon side-by-side. In truth, it's really more like the DYRL versions of a few mecha like the Nousjadeul-Ger totally replaced the TV series versions... though we do see things like the TV and DYRL version of Zentradi body armor side-by-side in the same units (like the NUNSM Zentradi garrison on Gallia IV).
  11. Seto Kaiba
    Point of order... the additional destroids produced in the Macross's onboard factory were not built from scratch. They were built using the stockpiles of spare parts that were part of the Macross's original consignment, and also the spare parts carried by the Daedalus.As the VEFR-1 is not seen until after the ship's resupply after returning to Earth and we know she didn't leave port with one originally, it seems likely that the VEFR-1s were either acquired from the Prometheus (a seabound carrier) or were issued to the ship as part of its resupply operation before leaving for space again (the UN Forces presumably not wanting to waste state of the art craft on a ship that was on a suicide mission to distract the enemy.) Presumably it didn't build any VE-1 or VT-1 units because it didn't have the necessary parts and maintenance of existing combat units would naturally take priority over building new unarmed fighters. Debatable, given that several of the real-world equivalents of the "bland name" companies behind the military aircraft in Macross were also giants of the private sector like McDonnell Douglas... they may simply have not seen a ton of use for non-transatmospheric craft considering what a craphole Earth was by that point.
  12. Seto Kaiba
    Technically, there would have been if the Zentradi hadn't sunk ARMD-02... one of the two ships intended to dock with the Macross. Whether there were any or not among the Macross's carrier air wings is unclear, because we've never yet had a full inventory of the ~300+ VF-1s assigned to it throughout the entire war. There weren't any when she launched, but we don't know if she could have picked some up when she returned to Earth and was resupplied. To be fair, we don't really see Earth much between 2012 and 2040... so we don't know how quickly non-governmental air travel resumed. They had no problems with building fighters and transport aircraft by the hundred, so I have a hard time with the idea that they couldn't build jet airliners... and the planet was not exactly travel-friendly, being mildly radioactive and all kinds of barren. Not your ideal tourist trap.As far as the ships go... you may be getting a false impression of what that ventral fin is for. It folds flat against the ship's ventral hull when in water, and contains the ship's fold system. T-Crush is one of those school sports, y'know... and it's hardly nonviolent. Must be legal, it's played at schools... and if it weren't, they'd hardly be broadcasting it to the entire fleet with the fleet's mayor (Milia) acting as guest color commentator. A version of DYRL? is considered to be an in-universe historical drama film (produced for propaganda purposes) that came out in 2031. (From the in-universe clips we've seen, this version apparently included Max and Milia's wedding and some other stuff that wasn't in the actual 1984 film.)DYRL? as we know it is also part of that cloud of vagueness that exists with respect to the "true" version of events in the First Space War. There is no one version of the story identified as the "correct" one. (Which is part of why we keep getting mingled TV and movie aesthetics in sequels.) For the VF-1's purposes, the official technical materials classify the TV and DYRL? versions of the VF-1 as two different sets of production blocks that coexist in the same timeline. The TV series VF-1 is representative of a VF-1 Valkyrie from Blocks 1-5, while the Movie VF-1 is representative of the VF-1 Valkyrie from Block 6 onwards.
  13. Seto Kaiba
    Some of the specific dates do... but in this case it's the writers of Master File showing the audience that they've done their homework. The part about the deficiencies of the early model tandem cockpit blocks goes way back. In fact, I recall that was cited as the reason the VF-1D wasn't depicted in DYRL? in the "VF History" piece done for Macross II back in 1992. I'd have to check, but that may go all the way back to the original VF-1 tech manual.There are, for the record, official publications which establish the presence of VT-1 and VE-1 units during the First Space War. The "Variable Fighter Aero Report" in This is Animation Macross Plus is one such source. To give an example, it establishes the presence of a UN Spacy Marine Corps training squadron, SVMAT-102 and its VT-1 Super Ostriches, aboard ARMD-04 Clemenceau for three months starting in October 2009. (It also places a UN Spacy unit with VT-1s, SVT-24) aboard ARMD-02 Invincible.) What little official information exists for the VEFR-1 paints it as an official variant, so I doubt it's an in-the-field design. (The Macross II timeline actually paints the VE-1 as a semi-official field customization built on the VT-1 by the Macross's onboard factory and the test teams who embarked to evaluate the performance of the Super Valkyrie.) The Master File books present themselves as in-universe publications published in various in-universe years (2020, 2030, 2067, etc.), and their contents aren't strictly canon... but then, they're also periodically corroborated by official sources too. Oh, the Zentradi absolutely did a number on Earth's surface... but that's what they focused on, to the exclusion of all else (or maybe they never just got 'round to the rest). So they missed the space colonies, the moon bases and colony, the L5 manufacturing station, and so on... which proved to be quite fortunate, since it meant there were more survivors than the ones in Grand Cannon III and V, and they had space-based manufacturing capabilities that'd escaped the war unscathed. That's how they were able to turn out a massive emigrant ship so fast after the war... they were building the SDF-2 as a Macross-class ship at Apollo Base on Luna, and once the war ended they converted the incomplete ship into an emigrant ship instead. The carriers and so on that accompanied it were built at the L5 manufacturing station and factories in those space colonies. (This is also how the only surviving parts of the VF-X-3 program survived... some photographs and one part contracted out to a space factory escaped destruction while everything else went up in smoke.) That probably has a lot to do with the relative size and efficiency of fold systems... they were big, unwieldy things for most of the postwar years, and small fold systems like a fold booster were only good for an extremely small object over an extremely short distance, one way only. It probably took a while to miniaturize the engine technology enough to mount a fold system that was reusable and long ranged on something the size of a jet airliner. I doubt it... Macross 7 Trash paints a picture of an educational system where sports (televised in particular) are one of the key things keeping physical school campuses open... and that this state of affairs has been the norm for some time. It's quite official, not bootleg. Drawn by Mikimoto-sensei himself.
  14. Seto Kaiba
    The idea of an inertial protection system is one of those "as old as sci-fi" tropes.... but Frontier's ISC is actually one of the most unusual takes on it that I've ever seen, principally because it isn't magically cancelling inertia, it's actually acknowledging conservation of energy and only storing that energy before returning it to the aircraft.G-Tekketsu's is a more traditional inertial damper, canceling out g-forces with an antigravity field.
  15. Seto Kaiba
    Its first appearance was in DYRL?, though available technical material suggests that it was developed shortly before the First Space War and was not available in significant numbers until after the war ended. Alas, no. Perhaps I should have chosen a better word than "improvised" to describe the design origin of the VEFR-1. It wasn't something the crew of the Macross put together, it was one of a number of special purpose variants that were built only in the earliest VF-1 production blocks to fill a particular operational niche before the introduction of a proper dedicated model. Almost all of the "improvised" designs belong to the first five production blocks of the VF-1, while the purpose-built replacements for same tend to belong to Block 6 and later. The best known of these is the VF-1D, a model conversion trainer with a modified cockpit block that compromised its survivability in space by removing or reducing survival and escape equipment to make room for the second seat and set of controls... and, consequentially, was only produced in small numbers and largely kept to atmospheric service before being replaced by the purpose-built VT-1. The VEFR-1 is another such design, also built off the early and flawed tandem cockpit design used by the VF-1D and suffering many of the same flaws. It was built in extremely low numbers (VFMF suggests only a dozen) and was also kept mainly to atmospheric service before being replaced by the VE-1. The ES-11's radome and sensor equipment probably wouldn't fit on a VF-1, as the radome alone is almost large enough to park a VF-1 on. Or they may have been using the VE-1 on the rationale that the VE-1 entered service at some point in mid-2008 as part of Block 6, and was thus a period appropriate aircraft. Why does everyone always forget about the space colonies in orbit, the bases and colony on the moon, and the manufacturing station at Earth-Moon L5 which served as Earth's primary shipyard until the capture of the Esbeliben AWDAP facility after the war? That was a purpose-built interstellar cruise liner, not some repurposed warship. It's generally an unwise assumption to assume that just because we haven't seen a thing in the show that it doesn't exist.Indeed, sports are still very much a thing and still televised. Macross 7 Trash is an entire story about a professional athlete, and they televised his matches all through the 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet (and possibly beyond). Air racing is a sport, and there's an entire Macross light novel devoted to it (Macross the Ride), and we know those events are broadcast throughout the galaxy. Motorcycle racing was also shown in Macross M3, with Milia herself as a participant. Macross Perfect Memory mentions that in the years following the First Space War, the Zentradi broke into a number of industries including sports... wrestling, and apparently women's wrestling in particular, apparently had an unusual resurgence as a result. (One of the pictures in that Lost Two Years segment is of a Zentradi women's wrestling match being refereed by a VF-1A.)
  16. Seto Kaiba
    I'm not convinced he was ever invested in this project to begin with. IIRC we had an interview not so long ago where it was stated that the show Kawamori'd wanted to make was more or less the polar opposite of Delta. He wanted to do a show that was all VFs, no idols. What he got was a show that was very nearly all idols and no VFs.If that's true, I have to wonder if he didn't just design a VF and then check right the hell out... In a perfect world, we'd have had a final episode that actually resolved the plot. Since there isn't a movie known to be coming, having apparently been a sacrifice on the alter of the second cour, if you don't count Roid and Keith dying then Windermere's king and Aerial Knights pulled a karma houdini. They didn't have to own up to killing tens if not hundreds of thousands of people and attempting to enslave over eight billion people (not counting Roid being set on enslaving the entire galaxy) after a series of unprovoked attacks and illegal military occupations of soverign nations. They didn't make peace, or even recognize that they made a horrible mistake in tampering with a highly dangerous Protoculture device that they knew could kill much of the galaxy's population by burning out their brains.Windermere is something of a first... not only are they the first enemy that the New UN Government hasn't been able to make peace with at the end of some war or other, but they're also the first unapologetically EVIL adversary the setting has had. They were not redeemed in any way, really. Once the dust of battle had settled, Heinz just took his army and went home to plan his next move. No acknowledgement that this entire mess was his fault, remorse for a campaign of terrorism and murder that spanned much of the galaxy, or even a "thank you" for the Xaos and NUNS forces for stopping Roid's coup d'etat and saving the galaxy. The NUNS would be perfectly within their rights to launch their own invasion of Windermere and/or bomb the planet right out of the material universe. Nah, I'll take a miss on the cyanide tablets... but if I ever get it into my head to rewatch this show for any reason other than screen captures from the BDs for M3, I'll know it's time to check myself into the funny farm. I never thought I'd find a show that would make me think better of Macross 7. Found the masochist!
  17. Seto Kaiba
    As I said in an earlier post, the UN Spacy didn't have a fully space-capable AEW or ELINT platform and was making do with improvised solutions until they adopted the VE-1. The ES-11 Cat's Eye was apparently an atmospheric jet that was retrofitted to operate in space, which would've made continuing to rely on it an unappealing prospect to say the least. The VEFR-1 "Funny Chiniese" that was used alongside the Cat's Eye was also an improvised platform unsuited for use in space. It was a two-seater based upon the VF-1D, and shared that model's unfortunate shortcoming of having cut back or outright removed portions of the fighter's space survival/escape equipment to make room for the second seat in the standard nose block. It also had some functional problems, like being unable to employ all of its equipment when in fighter mode because several of the sensors replaced the hands. All told, not an ideal platform in general... let alone for space. The VE-1 ELINT Seeker was basically third time lucky... a dedicated and fully space-capable AEW and ELINT platform that was built on the VT-1 platform, and as such dodged all the problems that dogged its predecessor. It could exploit the full range of its sensors in every mode, and it didn't need to sacrifice any survivability in order to accommodate its two-man crew thanks to the more spaceous VT-1 cockpit block.
  18. Seto Kaiba
    The experience is uncannily reminiscent of having unanesthatized dental surgery done while watching a special commentary on Battlefield Earth by Fran Drescher and Gilbert Gottfried.
  19. Seto Kaiba
    Nope... if you go back a little further up in my post where I broke down the masses of the FAST packs, that 10,000kg or so is the mass of the VF-31's FAST packs on their own, after subtracting the mass of the fuel and munitions the pack contains and the mass of the fighter itself. I've not seen the episode yet, but I do recall most of the salient technical points from last season... and I'm pretty sure they don't have inertia store converter technology.ISC technology in Macross insulates a cockpit (and airframe) from high g-forces by using a dimensional shift to temporarily displace and store those inertial forces in fold space and return them to the aircraft in a controlled fashion later. It doesn't negate inertial forces, it just buffers them so the pilot doesn't experience sudden changes in g-force loads that could cause the pilot harm or result in loss of control. If you were to graph the g-force the fighter sustains, what the ISC is doing is clipping peaks and filling valleys. If I understand the materials published for G-Tekketsu last season, an Ahab reactor is some form of quantum generator fueled by baryonic matter kept in a vacuum chamber, which produces exotic particles that interfere with most forms of electromagnetic waves. The "Ahab particles" produced in the reaction have some gravimetric effects, and are harnessed to provide modest artificial gravity on starships and in mobile suit cockpits. Essentially, cockpit blocks on mobile suits have a limited form of inertial damping thanks to rudimentary artificial gravity technology. (This apparently requires the cockpit to be in very close proximity to the Ahab reactor... or, in the case of Gundam frames, to be between the frames's twin Ahab reactors.) The mobile suit is apparently cancelling, rather than buffering, those g-forces with its own gravitational field.
  20. Seto Kaiba
    That's what they should've done instead of making Delta.That or an animated adaptation of Macross the Ride.
  21. Seto Kaiba
    I doubt it... the VF-31's Super Pack doesn't seem to be even as big as the VF-25's despite being five times as heavy, but I can't quite see the VF-31 equipping an ordinance container that weighs as much as the plane itself.
  22. Seto Kaiba
    I'm not sure mass is necessarily a factor in classification... after Macross Frontier screwed the usual convention of an Armored Pack being a big, bulky chunk of bolt-on armor that prevented transformation, the "big and bulky" part seems to be all that's left. Stylistically, the VF-31's FAST packs appear to be a Super Pack, and to the best of my knowledge that's what Bandai is calling it in their model kits... so I guess it'd be SPS-31, even though they never actually use the term Super Pack during the show. The terms used as "Protection units" for the bolt-on armor segments (said in English) and MMP Booster Pack for the actual boosters we most commonly associate with a Super Pack. Edit: I noticed one interesting detail while I was reviewing the scenes in Ep6 for the dialog relating to the VF-31's FAST pack. As expected, the packs contain a fair amount of additional fuel for the fighter to use to extend its operating time in space... but what's unexpected is that they appear to be taking a leaf from the VF-1 and VF-19's books by repurposing part of the boundary layer control system and active airflow management system as a fuel tank. They've capped the BLCS intakes on the dorsal fuselage with conformal fuel tanks. If they're actually filling the BLCS intake with a fuel bladder, that could potentially add several hundred to several thousand more liters of fuel.
  23. Seto Kaiba
    I've just finished a rewatch of the entire series, and I have to say I noticed something I didn't see the first time 'round. The Macross Delta series is a really poorly-executed riff on the plot of Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy. A small, elite military outfit goes rogue and tries to seize control of a remote part of the galaxy in order to unseal and take control of an ancient, forbidden technology the Protoculture originally built in an effort to undo the series of horrible mistakes that ruined their interstellar civilization... and it's up to an understaffed, undercapable private military contractor's branch office to stop their plan and prevent the activation of that technology to save the lives of billions. Naturally, activating that lost technology requires the input of a mysterious young girl who is a singer and is initially sheltered by the PMC and later captured by the evil jackass-in-chief... and is rescued from the freshly-activated evil techno-doodad shortly before it gets blown up by the heroes in a daring last ditch assault. Hell, the key planets involved are even both conveniently isolated from the rest of the galaxy by all-encompassing fold faults. I can never un-know this realization... but at least know I know why it felt like I'd heard this story before.
  24. Seto Kaiba
    OK, so... Super and Armored Pack masses. The VF-25 w/ SPS-25S/MF25 Super Pack has a standard operating mass of 28,000kg... that's including all of the fuel in the packs and the fighter, all of the ordinance carried in the Super Pack, etc. Take out that 15,000kg of weapons and fuel in the packs, and you're left with an 8,450kg fighter and 4,550kg of extra mass attributed to the fighter's fuel, the gunpod, and the empty mass of the booster elements of the NP-FAD-23 FAST pack. The fuel used in variable fighters has a very low mass of just 0.085 kilograms per liter (hydrogen slush), so I'd wager the VF-25's internally-carried fuel mass is probably only around 455kg of that 4,550kg of excess mass (equivalent to the full fuel capacity of the VF-1 Super Valkyrie with conformal tanks). The VF-25's standard operating mass with the APS-25A/MF25 Armored Pack is 52,000kg. We know 40,000kg of that is the pack itself... 9,000kg of ordinance, 15,000kg of fuel, and 16,000kg of the actual body of the pack itself. That, as you say, points to a VF-25 "naked" operating mass of around 12,000kg (3,550kg of which is fuel, other consumables, and weapons). For the VF-31's Super Pack, they're giving a standard operating mass of 38,000kg, and they're citing that 16,875kg of that is the pack's fuel and ordinance. That means that the actual pack is a surprisingly weighty affair much closer to the VF-25's Armored Pack in mass than its Super Pack. I doubt the VF-31's carrying much more fuel than the VF-25 in its internal tanks, so I'd wager there's probably around 450-500kg of that is fuel carried internally. Take out a ton or two for the gun pod and you're left with around 10,000-11,000kg of pack mass once you've subtracted the VF-31's 8,525kg from the equation. So, as it stacks up by estimate: VF-25 Armored Pack: 16,000kg VF-31 Super Pack: ~10,000kg VF-25 Super Pack: ~2,000kg The VF-31's Super Pack really must be layering on additional armor, otherwise it must be really badly designed to weigh THAT much.
  25. Seto Kaiba
    Oh, absolutely. There's a reason most of us never bothered to level Basara and his VF-19 Custom in Macross 30... he's bloody useless in an actual stand-up fight. Well, yes... it is written, black on white, though IIRC the stats pamphlet from the 1/72 Sv-262Hs Draken III was actually a four-color print job. The Sv-262's limbs being packed closer together than ever, while making up almost the entire central body of the aircraft, is actually the problem. Normally one of the main fuel tanks is located inside of the engine nacelles (lower legs), and the wings being articulated and structurally reinforced to be attachment points for the Lilldrakens reduces the amount of fuel that could be stored in there as well. The Draken III hasn't got any really big, immobile sections where fuel can be stored in large quantities the way most other VFs do. One of the most important factors to remember when you're talking about variable fighters and fuel is that a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine is a good three orders of magnitude more efficient in atmospheric flight than it is in space operations. I really cannot stress that enough. The VF-1 Valkyrie's FF-2001 thermonuclear reaction turbine engines could run 3,600 times longer in atmosphere than in space on the exact same amount of fuel. We're talking a difference between 2,350mL/s and 0.6527mL/s. A variable fighter optimized for atmospheric service can reasonably cut back on the amount of fuel it's carrying and devote all of that extra space and mass to things like armor reinforcement while still carrying enough fuel to operate for weeks between refuelings if need be. Since the Sv-262 was intended for hit-and-run attacks, having a more limited fuel supply wasn't really a significant design flaw. Because they don't have numbers on their side, if they don't get in and out quick they're dead either way.
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