dreamweaver13

it's like you're daring them to do these films.

well, i do hear crickets chirping.... and a crow suddenly flying by crying "a-ho, a-ho".

Thanks guys for taking the time to read my lengthy "dissertation". and i appreciate the feedback. It's nice to know that there are a lot of others here who like the second arc of the series. an "aftermath" arc could very well be an endangered species in anime, or even in the macross franchise, so SDFM's last 9 episodes could be the last of its kind. i think it'll be hard to reproduce that kind of "magic" between characters even after the climax of the story.

Oh yeah, i forgot two more things that called out to me while watching the aftermath episodes: The first is quite obvious. In the Satan's Dolls episode, while Hikaru was trying to convince the citizens of the city to let him take the miclonization chamber, and kaifun was egging the mob, hikaru and minmay were stealing glances at each other. Was Hikaru trying to ask MInmay to help him out with the crowd? I'm not really sure. I think it's more of Hikaru being in a hostile situation, and clinging on to the only sight that was giving him any comfort. And as for Minmay, i'm not too sure if she was already falling in love with Hikaru by then, or if she was seriously thinking of helping him out. What i'm sure of, is that at that time, they just wanted to hold each other again. A long hug, either between friends or lovers who have been separated for far too long. Sure, the imagery was a bit too psychedelic, and the addition of kaifun's face to symbolize the obstacle between them bordered on cheesy, but what I really liked about this moment is that both of them subconsciously just wanted to cling to each other, and let all other worries melt away. The second is a bit more subtle, and required much use of my DVD player's rewind function. Normally, Hikaru and Misa would refer to each other as Ichijo and Hayase (or "major") throughout the series. Even until the last episode, even up until Misa's confession, misa called him ichijo-kun, and even when Hikaru was chasing after Misa after the bombs fell, he was shouting "major" to call out to her. It was only when kamjin's battleship crashed into Macross that Hikaru shouted out "Misa!". But looking back, every now and then, you could catch them calling each other by their first names in private. very rare instances. In "Rainy Night", when Misa was getting ready to apologize to Hikaru in the command center, but Hikaru chewed her out for being to work-oriented, Misa called him "Hikaru..." before she could even begin to apologize. In "Private Time", when Hikaru was finally able to meet up with Misa at the end of the day after standing her up, he called her "Misa". it's as if there were moments that they were very comfortable with each other that they just naturally shift to first name basis before becoming formal again. Or when they're alone, or when they're unguarded, they just happen to call to each other by their first name (misa must have completely forgotten that vanessa was just beside her when she called him Hikaru). It's very sweet to listen to them tiptoe around that line between lovers and colleagues, that whenever you catch them calling each other by their first name, you can't help but feel that you caught a glimpse of the special bond between them.

Not at all. I'm talking about the aftermath episodes after space war 1. particularly episodes 28-36. Sorry for the misconception.

I agree, they're missing the point. sigh.

Not only arty and post-modern, but proabably the only one of its kind, as well. bravo. And to the first one of us who happens by chance to go to the alternate dimension where all these events happened, kudos to you, and do send us details.

Sigh. This happens every friggin time I re-watch the aftermath episodes of SDFM. I am always astounded by the brilliance of the story, the writing, the production (some horribly animated episodes aside, of course), and I always plan on sharing these thoughts on MW, whose members have also probably realized what I'm about to say anyway. But this time, I'm in a writing mood, so my advanced apologies to people who have heard this all before from different people, from a different time, and repeatedly. Just bear with me on this one. And I’m warning you already, this'll be a long one. Background The first time I watched the show was when I was a kid, dubbed in english (but NOT as robotech). My memories about the series were vague (because, as pointed out to me by a fellow countryman, the show was aired out of broadcast sequence), but dear god, I loved it! But more than anything (yes even more than the mecha action, heaven forbid), what really caught my attention as a kid was the love triangle. My vague childhood memory, however, only remembered that hikaru and minmay were the original lovers, but hikaru and misa were the ones who ended up together. Fortunately, as a kid, I had no concept of "shipping" (at that time, who did??), so I was fine with that. There was no lingering feeling of loss, no deep understanding about the feelings involved. A love story was told, and concluded. The lovely princess met her prince charming. Case closed. Years later while in highschool, to rekindle my love affair with macross, and to finally get a more mature understanding of the story, I resorted to watching the only version of macross available to me at that time – Robotech. Even before researching, I knew already that this was somehow different from the show I watched as a kid, but hell, I watched it all the same. And it renewed my obsession with macross. While I liked the aftermath episodes of the robotech version, it wasn't that much more amazing than the episodes before it, storywise. It felt more like an effort to extend a profitable series, rather than a seemless ending to the show. And after SW1 (with Minmay singing that horrendous "we will win" song), I already felt that Rick and Lisa were already THE couple, the true star-crossed lovers, and minmay was just the foil, the third wheel testing the true love between rick and lisa. Annoying Minmay, playing with Rick's feelings, flirting without reason, with fleeting emotions and a fickle heart. It was almost like she was the villain of the aftermath episodes. Yes, that's what the RT version made her feel like to me (which, to this day, I consider RT's greatest sin against SDFM). For years, I lived with this version of the aftermath episodes. It was only until much later that I was able to secure the original SDFM episodes, subtitled. And even then, it had to take several marathons of SDFM to get that RT taste out of my mouth (even now, sad to say, there is still some lingering aftertaste. Or at best, horrible memories of what wasn't). And the more I watched and re-watched SDFM, the more I realized how brilliant the aftermath episodes really were, and how these episodes really turned SDFM from a cool mecha show with a love story on the side, to one of the greatest stories about the human condition, with a love story for the ages. The dynamics of the original triangle What I realized when I finally brainwashed RT out of my system was that Hikaru and Minmay were the true destined, star-crossed, Romeo-and-Juliet lovers of SDFM (yes, those scenes from the top window of nyan nyan could not have been more obvious now). At one point, Hikaru really loved Minmay with all his heart (arguably from episode 5 to 33), and Minmay finally realized she also loved Hikaru at a certain point (probably episodes 32 to 36), but they just never happened to be on the same page at the exact same time. By the time Minmay was ready to commit herself to Hikaru, Hikaru was already truly confused. (From my reading of the aftermath episodes, the only time he was truly confused was after "Rainy Night". Before that, he was hand-down in love with Minmay, and he never made any effort to hide it from Misa.) The only true time Hikaru and Minmay were on the same page, was when they were trapped under SDFM way back in episode 4. hence, Minmay's proposal in the final episode that they should go back to "that moment". (one of the most beautiful moments of the aftermath episodes, but I'll go back to that later). But through all the signs that Hikaru and Minmay were destined for each other, the parallelism that always shows itself in the series is that Hikaru and Misa were good together. You cannot imagine one without the other. The same thing goes for Minmay and her music. I'm not about to renew a shipping war in favor of a Hikaru-Minmay ending. Far from it. I am completely and thoroughly happy with the Hikaru-Misa ending, and I feel that it could not have gone any other way. But sometimes, the best love stories are those where the true lovers never get together in the end. Hence, when you see that these lovers go on their separate lives, albeit happily, there's a part of you that feels regret thinking about what "could have been". For me, that was the beautiful and sincerely human emotion that would not have been possible if the series had ended with "Love Drifts Away." Realism The thing I felt from the RT version of the aftermath was that it was already bordering on being silly and unrealistic. Rick and Lisa were already a couple, Minmay comes along, Rick digresses to a bumbling idiot that borders on being completely infantile. Rick and Lisa get together again, and seemingly renew their bond with some tea during a rainy night, minmay comes back again, and so on and so forth. It was like a silly dance with no end, and with the characters evolving and then digressing every minute. But after watching the SDFM aftermath episodes again and again, I am amazed at how realistic the three of them behaved all throughout. This could have actually happened to any three people in the world with some attraction for each other. It all hinged on episodes 27 (Love Drifts Away), because in that episode, Minmay told Hikaru that she couldn't return his feelings. She never led Hikaru on (like she did in RT). But at the same time, Hikaru never really stopped loving her, although he did decide to finally let go. On the premise that she had already chosen to be with Kaifun. Two years later, Hikaru is developing a friendship with Misa, but is not ready to commit to anything more romantic because he still has feelings for Minmay. In this sense, Hikaru never led Misa on. He was just acting as a close friend. And since Misa never confessed her feelings, Hikaru continued to do so. Hikaru never had any inkling that Misa had any romantic leanings towards him (until Vanessa pointed it out in "Rainy Night"), so until then, there was nothing wrong with going to Grante city to see Minmay's concert, and to hug her passionately after rescuing her in "Broken Heart". In fact, I felt he was in the right place when he objected to being sent for the sweep-up against kamjin's retreating forces. Usually, someone else is sent to do the clean-up job, and since he never hid his feelings for minmay from misa, he naturally lashed out at her for being unreasonable and unfair. And knowing how much Misa is obsessive-compulsive about her military work, it was understandable that Hikaru completely misunderstood why Misa did it. Hikaru's excuses ran out after "Rainy Night", since he was already vaguely aware of Misa's feelings (even though she hasn’t literally confessed yet). There was already an understanding that they were dating. And in my opinion, this is the first time Hikaru acted the jerk. But then again, don't most men act like a jerk, intentionally or not, at one point in their lives? He made a mistake (a big one). But this could also have been the first time that he realized that he would rather have spent the day with Misa than with Minmay. Deep down this may have been the point where he truly moved on from Minmay. Because when Minmay finally asked him if his feelings had changed since "Love Drifts Away", he could not answer immediately. Too bad he was caught red-handed by Misa, because his moving on from Minmay, coupled with his realization that Misa was a wonderful woman (she waited the whole day for him for chrissakes, and didn't even nag him about it!), could have meant that they were a couple right there and then, and Hikaru might not have let Minmay stay in his place in "Romanesque". So why did he let her stay over? Well, wouldn't you? She was one of his dearest friends, and part of him still loves her; how could he say no? In Hikaru's mind, he was just helping someone out. Of course, he knew the implications (hence, he asked minmay if she thought it was a good idea for her to sleep over), but he couldn't shoo her away. Specially for the sake of someone who wouldn't even talk to him. Misa also depicted the behavior of someone who felt strongly about a guy, but couldn't tell him yet. She had every reason to be mad whenever he was being insensitive, but enough reason to forgive him for it since she hadn't been very clear about their relationship anyway. And, in my opinion, it was perfectly reasonable that Misa was very insecure about her chances with Hikaru, considering that the greatest and most desirable superstar of post-SW1 earth was hot on his heels. She couldn't have said it better herself; what chance could she possibly have? Finally, Minmay, far from being a petulant brat, acted perfectly like someone who may have realized her feelings for a man a bit too late. And even though she was the biggest pop star this side of Armageddon, you have to give her credit for keeping her ego in check and not assuming that Hikaru would trip over himself at a chance for a relationship with her. Even with the wine (in "Private Time"), she first blurted out some subtle hints to test the waters, before she could finally ask him if he still felt the same way about her. She didn't assume. With all her fame and her accomplishments, she was nevertheless still insecure about the woman Hikaru has been spending most of his time with. Watching the aftermath episodes intently, with my finger on the rewind button, I couldn't find any illogical, unreasonable or out-of-this world behavior from any of the three main characters. They behaved as any human person could possibly behave in their situation and circumstances. Absent the mecha, aliens and the futuristic setting, this drama could be playing out between three people anywhere in the world, at any given moment. Brilliant writing Cheesy love story writers should take their cue from the aftermath episodes. While certainly lacking in big fat declarations of love, and epic Hollywood elements, the aftermath episodes paint a love story that is both subtle and poignant. The writers made good use of parallelisms, flashbacks and juxtapositions to get their message across. One that particularly struck me was that in a span of 2 episodes (28 and 29) you have Hikaru and Minmay both asking why they are doing what they are doing. Hikaru asks why he is still in the military, and realizes that it's for the woman he loves – Minmay. Minmay, on the other hand, starts to consider why she's singing, and then she gets a flashback of the night Hikaru gave her his medal; and she probably starts to wonder if she's singing for him. Two characters, probably pining for each other, with the same set of thoughts. Wonderful dialogues always occurred between Misa and Claudia. Rainy Night opens with Misa thinking about her fighting with Hikaru the previous night, and Claudia's lecture for her to open up was smoothly done. Claudia has always been a font of wisdom in the series, and this is moreso in the aftermath episodes whenever she talks with Misa. Misa's dialogues with Hikaru are very natural, as though between two friends or lovers who are completely comfortable with each other. Considering the fact that both of them are not actually communicating deeply about each other's feelings, the way they talk naturally with each other is touching. Another key moment was to finally solidify Hikaru and Misa's blossoming relationship by juxtaposing it with the flashback of Roy Fokker. While there was actually little similarity between Hikaru and Roy (who was the bigger jerk, by far), the similarity between the circumstances of Claudia and Misa are subtle, yet so profound, that you could have dismissed it. Another particular brilliant stroke of writing is in the final episode, when Minmay finally pleads with Hikaru for them to go back to that moment in episode 4. Part marriage proposal, part plea for normalcy, this line brings the series back full circle to the very beginning of the love story. The line adds depth to the original moment in episode 4, and you realize how they were fated to be lovers from that old moment. However, you are also brought subtly into the realization (even before Misa steps in to confess) that things can never go back to that fleeting moment, no matter how wonderful and perfect it was. Score More than any point in the series, I think the aftermath episodes made full and perfect use of the musical score/background to depict the proper emotions at any exact point. From the melancholic music of introspection whenever Misa is alone, to the use of Minmay's songs inter-spaced between events (Misa singing Sunset Beach while getting drunk is a classic), to the sudden change of score to depict a sudden change of mood (i.e. when Misa saw the LM hearts HI on the muffler), they contributed much to the drama. And all this is punctuated by using the macross opening theme in-series for the first time, as macross lifts off in the final episode, and the final "Sayonara" sung by Minmay as the album closes. The score was, in my opinion, a masterpiece. Final thought For me, the aftermath episodes made the series. Would I still have loved the series without it? Certainly! Would I be obsessed with macross even without it? Probably. Would I fall deeply in love with the triangle as much as I have without it? Most certainly not. My personal opinion is that the aftermath episodes were superior in depth, writing and story-telling than the rest of the series. The meat, action and purpose of the story was in the pre-SW1 episodes. The heart of the series came afterwards. Without the aftermath episodes, I would not have this strong feeling of rightness with Hikaru and Misa holding each other and watching Minmay walk away, and I would not have this feeling of lingering regret while seeing Minmay taking one final look at the Hikaru and Misa before walking away and singing her song. The combination of these emotions made this experience wonderful, and one which I could never forget; worthy of a photo album in my mind with the words AD2012. So long.

i don't mind, really. it all boils down to the viewers, i.e. how do you interpret the events, and which do you prefer? the canon is out there, and it happened for real (still in a fictional sense, of course), but there are several media interpretations on how it happened. as with any historical event, unless i'm a historian, i would have to rely on either documentaries, a tv series or a movie based on the event to get a feel for what happened. and to enjoy history unfolding. the only problem is, if you really want to know the real history of what (fictionally) happened, the only history book on the matter is still unpublished, and in the mind of SK.

Case closed. Great work Gubaba and bishopcruz. This thread should be saved for posterity. p.s. Could you also PM me the link, gubaba? thanks man.

just a thought... if he already went this far, what would stop him from going even further? like, creating bogus materials and try to pass them off as the elusive holy grail. yikes.

I never said i wouldn't!

aw shut up, you. last i checked, my hikaru avatar's cheeks ain't even red. even though i wouldn't be a part of it, i can't help but be excited about your little MW get-together for the YK concert. feels kinda... historic.

Nah, grace will probably use it to further the human-vajra war. who needs a sheryl nome death, when you have that image?? Grace: "hey vajra queen, guess where this picture came from..." Vajra Queen: "Muthafu.... kids, annihilate them. a race that can come up with something like this doesn't deserve to live!"

Wiicross 7. nice. hehe. I'm sure if the game comes out, gubaba will have a customized basara-guitar controller. (but then again, since he is named gubaba, hell probably get the Mylene-style.).

The best part about grace is how she went from this: to this: It's like you'll be telling me that Nanase will try to conquer the universe later on. How could I possibly believe you?

Haha. they should give Xeros a commission for that quickie purchase.

Plug in the BSG DVDs and pump up the KY track list, and I can die a happy man.

Anime has its academic benefits after all.

:lol: !! Nice one nerdfish!

Well, there's always Shimon, Johanne and Petero.

wow, you guys are really into k-on, huh? i hope to give it a try one of these days.

Good point. we can't even preclude the possibility of in-fighting among Grace's multiple AIs. From the series, it is apparent that while the AIs communicate with each other, one specific AI takes primary control at any given time (MF Ep 15). In their own terminology, whose AI will "take the initiative" at certain points in time. Sure, they were happy enough to have grace take control during the take-over, but what about after?

Even from this perspective, I don't think the burden of proof is with gubaba, since Ohnogi isn't credited as a writer in MF in the first place.

Congrats to all those who got tickets! Lucky! May the anima spirita of all the MW members be with you. I will anxiously await your posts about the event.