Warmaker

My comments in red! Back on the Spartan equipment... if anything, the Spartans (or Greek Hoplites) in general appeared in this fashion: Hoplite Warfare - See Spartan Hoplite image halfway down They may opt for a bronze breastplate. This was still a time when Greek Hoplites would get heavier protection if possible.

Can you edit your topic title? it says "... in Urinal Tournament 2004." Urinal is where you... urinate in I think you mean Unreal Tournament.

I put Yamato. They have done a few idiotic things, but overall I still like it. Bandai? Nothing new. That's a big problem. As for the others like Max Factory, I'm not too knowledgeable in all the things they release, much less transformable valks of detail and quality. I know some manufacturers have put in transformable valks... but they're models.

My last take on this whole thing: Was I watching a story about the Battle of Thermopylae or was I watching someone's version of Lord of the Rings?

Victor is the company that produced the music for Macross. The "Macross Complete" CD collection with Mari Ijima's singing? That was officially released by Victor. Unless it's done awfully! Personally, I'll take a good, decent production every once in a while than atrociously bad shows that embarass the franchise.

*Edited away my original first half of this reply... you don't need me raining on the parade any furhter!* Anyways, I did read Frank Miller's 300 Comic and I still like that better than the movie. I'll leave it at that. ------------------ I've heard whispers about a year ago of a movie adaptation of Steven Pressfield's "Gates of Fire," which itself is a novel of Thermopylae. I'm quite curious about it since the book is very, very good in it's own telling of the battle. It also provides a strong background on the Spartans. Their lifestyle, training, mindset... everything. The depiction of the battle was outstanding. You had a definite feel of exhaustion, death, wounds, and desperation. The description and "feel" of Hoplite warfare felt vastly different from a standard "Run around and skewer / slash everyone you see." I know his book took a few liberties, but it included alot of historical accuracy as well. I'm just curious to see if this comes out and if it does, how accurate it will be to history and the book.

The sad part is that in between the Orcs, Mutants, Giants, Goat-Headed-Man, Quazimoto / Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Silver-Masked-Black-Uniformed-Ninjas-Wielding-Something-Like-Katanas-But-Are-PERSIAN-Immortals-And-Not-Japanese-Ninjas, people may think the Spartans were fighting Sauron's / Eisengardt's Army instead of Persians... and thinking The Battle of Thermopylae was a fictional event! Also, if you dig up the actual history of the events leading into Thermopylae and its aftermath, there is alot of good potential for a damn good movie(s). I'm not saying History's all fun, but there are some events that can be a good movie and still be decently faithful to the real thing. Honestly, no movie will be 100% accurate. But if there's too many liberties taken, you might as well make it Sci-Fi or Fantasy, like the Americans cracking the Enigma Code in WWII instead of the British... oops, that was done already with "U-571" You might as well have British Royal Marines raising the British Flag atop Mount Suribachi at Iwo Jima. ... and if you're going to use CG, don't make your actors stand out from the CG that glaringly bad. The CG was decent for most parts but atrociously done in some parts. The worst was when this Spartan got his head lopped off by a Cavalryman. Man, was that awfully done.

It's amazing how far Valk toys have gone since the old 1/55 Takas.

**Shudders In Horror**

They didn't have Leonidas screaming all the time. He was just screaming 3/4 of the time, even when there was no fighting

The spears Greek Hoplites traditionally used were 8 ft long, give or take a foot. The 18 or so foot long weapons you're thinking about are the Macedonian Sarissas, developed by Alexander the Great's father, Phillip of Macedon. The Sarissa is developed much, much later than the era of Thermopylae / The Persian Wars. The Sarissa becomes more predominant after Alexander the Great's conquests and with Greeks and Hellenic culture spreading due to the conquests. When the Roman Republic gets into the 2nd Punic War in about 280 BC, the Hellenic world (Greek) spread considerably in the states that popped up after Alexander's death... and so did the Sarissa / Macedonian style of the Phalanx. As for the swords the Spartans were using in the movie, I'm not sure if that's accurate or not. Hoplites used a pretty a variety of short swords as their backup (Xiphos), since the spear is the primary weapon. Once the spear was lost, the Xiphos will then be used.

Arcadians are from the Pelopponese, Sparta's immediate neighbors to the North... and Sparta itself was far to the South on the Pelopponese. In the comic and movie, they met up and joined the Spartans early on their trip North. Thespians come from Thespiae, which is somewhere Northeast of Corinth and West of Athens. Maybe a good . Corinth sits on the isthmus connecting the Pelopponese with the rest of Greece. In the movie and comic, the Arcadians withdraw. Ancient Greek Historians have said that there were far more Greeks there than just the Spartan 300 and Thespians (Herodotus is one). They give numbers ranging from 4000 to 11000. Either range of numbers of Greeks, the ancient sources all say there were more Greeks there than just the Spartans. 2 miscellaneous Battle of Thermopylae related sites. Wikipedia Hoplites Related highpoints after the Battle of Thermopylae: - Eventually, a unified Greek defense was made. - The combined Greek Navy, led by the maritime power, Athens, inflicted a catastrophic defeat on Xerxes' Navy at Salamis. Thermopylae was in 480 BC and Salamis occurred maybe a month after it. This defeat seriously affected Xerxes plans since his massive army required alot of supplies brought from his ships. With the naval loss, he had to take a good portion of the army far to the Northeast. - Roughly a year later in 479 BC, the combined Greek Army fights the Persians at Plataea. This is where the comic and movie ends. The movie states 30k Greeks fighting the Persians, which is incorrect. Herodotus states 30k Hoplites and roughly 70k more Light Infantry for the Greeks. The numbers of Persians at Plataea seem to fluctuate with the historians, anywhere between just more than the Greeks or even x3 their numbers. Regardless, it was a total victory for Greece and Persia was eventually kicked out. After Xerxes' failed campaign in Greece, Persia historically never did anything significant. No major campaigns of conquest, just putting down revolts or whatnot. Persia however remained strong enough to interfere with Greek "politics," i.e. Greeks killing Greeks. It stayed this way for a while until 334 BC when some guy named "Alexander the Great" came knocking at Persia's door. Edit to add: Most Lethal Battles In World History

You're right, but the movie completely left out the Oracle's prophecy from the very same scenes: Sparta will burn if she didn't sacrifice one of her kings. So, I have 1 thing wrong against all the other inaccuracies & deviations from history and the comic I found. Indeed. I groaned to myself in despair when I saw that

** SPOILER WARNING... I guess, and a bit of History ** Firstly, I saw this movie as someone who has read alot on the history and has read the comic, so I had alot of expectations. The movie follows the comic version of "300" for most parts but goes into things it didn't. The whole ordeal of Leonidas' wife back in Sparta and the politics wasn't touched upon at all in the comic and was ahistorical also. The comic itself follows the general flow of history of Thermopylae well enough. But Ephialtes historically wasn't a Spartan reject, but a local from the regions of Thermopylae that sought reward. Something I felt disappointed that was historical and was covered by the comic but not in the movie was WHY Leonidas was only able to send 300 Spartans and WHY Leonidas did what he did. - The Spartans were very strict on tradition and the Carneian Festival that is traditionally observed came up. The Olympics also came into that period, another delay to the Greek defense. The Spartans always observed it and it prevented them from going to war. Leonidas knew that Sparta had to act or time would be wasted and the Persians would pour through into Southern & Central Greece unhindered. Leonidas did try to gain approval from the Priests & Oracle at Delphi to send Sparta into war and fight at Thermopylae. But that didn't work. - The Oracle also said that Sparta would be destroyed if she did not give up ONE of her Kings. Yes, Sparta was traditionally ruled by TWO Kings. - With all this in mind, Leonidas did pick out Spartans that had at least 1 son to succeed them and carry the family on, the "300." Leonidas knew the mission was a suicide since Sparta and Greece overall was hesitant to act in the face of what everyone knew was a massive Persian Army under Xerxes. Since Sparta would not deploy her Army, Leonidas could only take a very small portion of its Army to Thermopylae. - Thermopylae at best, Leonidas knew, was a doomed battle to defeat considering the reported size of the Persian army, but the intent was a "Delaying Action." What Leonidas was hoping for was buying time for the rest of Greece to unify politically and to assemble its armies for a combined effort against Xerxes' massive Persian Army. Remember, Greece wasn't one happy Peninsula. The Ancient Greeks throughout their history put more time into fighting each other than outside powers (Stephen Pressfield's book covers this also). The Olympics were also coming about and warfare was prohibited by many. The comic touched upon and showed that the Spartan 300 were not alone at Thermopylae. Historically, there was maybe a grand total of 7000 Greeks at best at Thermopylae. The comic didn't really show as much, but it did show a few other Greeks, and the movie barely acknowledges other Greeks there. The comic doesn't touch upon it too well and the movie doesn't cover the following at all: When it was discovered that the Persians discovered the mountain trail and were led there by a Greek, the defense was doomed to defeat that day. There's debate whether the other Greeks departed on Leonidas' orders or not on hearing the news. Traditionally, it is believed Leonidas, who was leading the overall defense, ordered the other Greeks to depart, choosing not to guarantee the destruction of the army. The whole point was to delay the Persians, slow them down, and make every Greek life cost the Persians dearly, all so that the rest of Greece would gain time to mount a unified defense. Losing the ENTIRE army at Thermopylae would have been wasteful, so Leonidas opted to send the majority of the army back. Regardless of Leonidas' orders, some contingents chose to stay, namely those who's cities were closeby. The Thespians stayed and contributed more troops to the last defense than the Spartans. Another reason that they had to remain, outside of buying time for the rest of Greece, was to cover the withdrawal of the other Greek contingents. If the Spartans withdrew or defense collapsed early, the withdrawing forces would be overtaken and attacked from there rear... the Persians did have a large cavalry force. The movie showed immediately the Spartans were alone in the final fight. Historically, the remaining Greeks closed immediately on the Persians before the flanking Persian forces could complete the encirclement. I was disappointed there was no more extra fighting at the last stand. There was no mention at all of the Thespians at the final stand, who accounted themselves very well until death. Something the comic had that the movie didn't was from the very beginning of the comic. It didn't start immediately with the boy in the snowy mountains with the wolf. It started right away with the 300 march towards Thermopylae. One of the younger Spartans stumbles and falls, and his captain is angered over his clumsiness as a Spartan. The Captain beats him and continues to do so. Leonidas says in a calm voice, "Enough." The Captain doesn't hear, and let's just say Leonidas does not repeat his commands Anyways, the "clumsy" Spartan was nicknamed "Stumblios," and Leonidas does mention him towards the end in the movie, but showing nothing as to how he got the name. I bet this segment was cut for the theatrical release. Overall, the movie was entertaining. It's not the best "Sword and Sandals" movie that ever was, but it's a good flick. Chicks will definitely not be into it, just so the rest of you guys know! "300" is definitely a guy's movie. ---------- There was something said by Leonidas' wife before he departed that alot in the audience did not understand. It is the Spartan saying, "Spartan, come home with this shield or upon it." It's a saying that Spartan mothers told their sons before they left for war. Firstly, Spartans do not retreat. If they came home, they better have their shield. If not, it was a universal Greek indication for cowardice. The shield (Hoplon), is quite heavy and is the key piece of equipment a Greek Hoplite will own. If the Hoplite is running in terror, he will throw aside his shield to lose weight and run faster. For a Spartan to do that, is unacceptable, so that's why we have "Come home with this shield." For the "upon it portion," the dead Hoplites are traditionally carried back home on their shields, like some sort of stretcher / carrier / litter. So a Spartan will either come back victorious and showing valor from battle (carrying home the shield). If not, then he better return home dead upon his shield. As for the fighting style of the Greeks, the movie showed it well enough at times and completely disregarded it in others. The Greeks fought in the Phalanx formation. It is essentially a very deep, densely packed formation of Hoplites. The shield protects more the man on the holder's left, and the movie points this out with Leonidas. The Phalanx, due to the depth of the formation as well as the Hoplite equipment, was well known for the "push" it has. Alot of combat results in very close contact with units literally on top of each other. A good "push" into the enemy can disrupt the formation by breaking through all the way or splitting it at the very least. The movie showed this very well at the first contact, with both sides literally in each others' faces, trying to "push" into the opposing formation with numbers, weight, etc. In most other times, it had Greek Hoplites fighting very loosely without any formation at all.

I read Gates of Fire by Pressfield, it's a good read on Thermopylae. Well, I caved in. I'm going to see it in 2 or so hours with a bunch of buddies from my unit.

I'm giving this movie a try next weekend. I'm all busy this coming one. I know quite well the actual history of Thermopylae and the events leading into it. I also read Frank Miller's "300" comic. The comic stayed pretty faithful in the big flow of events. I know Hollywood will do its Hollywood thing and take some liberties. But Frank Miller's stuff has been on a roll as of late, and I'll give this movie a try also.

Not too impressed with the choice of colors here. If they wanted "Low Visibility," why glaringly bright, attention grabbing Yellow pieces? The Green is also out of place with the Greys. Waaaayyy out of place. If it was all grey or series of greys, then it'd be great. Otherwise, the standard Blue-Red-White GBP is still superior for me.

Big scale F-14 Tomcat, F-15 Eagle, and a Russian Flanker. Yeah... pending space, of course.

It was close to the beginning of DYRL?. He even does this sort of "Vulcan Death Grip" on the Zentradi pilot with nice results. The scene was fairly quick, maybe 3 seconds at the most. It just shows off how bad*** Max was, that's all

Unfortunately Keith, "There's always a first time." I'm curious to see how this goes.

Don't feel too bad for the average Destroid Pilot. From my recollections of Macross TV and DYRL?, the Defenders are the only ones that I saw regularly get pasted. Tomahawks, Monsters, Spartans suffer far less casualties. Valks on the other hand, especially the famous (or infamous?) "CF" VF-1A's get plastered left and right. Occasionally you'll see Destroids get wasted in groups from a well placed attack (i.e. led by Quamzin). But in all other scenes, especially from the view of a main character's cockpit, you see all the other CF wingmen get blasted away one after the other. Valkyrie pilots face more danger compared to Destroid pilots. Why? Their inherent mobility allows them to be deployed away from their home base or mothership to pursue a goal. By leaving behind the base / mothership, they leave behind the usual protective umbrellas. In the SDF-1's case, the ship's own guns, warhead launchers, Destroid units, and assigned VF cover units. Destroids, especially during the SDF-1's situation (which I posed the question in), were used almost completely in a defensive manner by supplementing the SDF's mounted weapons. The SDF and Destroids each contributed to a strong defense with the overall goal of the SDF's survival. Valkyries oftenly had to leave that protective umbrella to conduct a variety of missions (reconaissance, patrols, strikes, interception, etc). IMO, for the average pilot, a Destroid Pilot had a far higher chance of surviving the entire SDF-1's trip back to Earth and the big orbital battle. Only on very few occasions were they used in an offensive manner and on only ONE occasion did it go FUBAR with that one Zentradi breakthrough. The only other time we see Destroids go "outside" the SDF protective umbrella is during the garrisson duties after the orbital battle where everything's in ruin. In that timeframe, things approached lawlessness in certain areas. That posed certain risks to the forces on duty in those areas. VF's and Destroids faced those problems.

While we're on the subject of Destroids, this begs a question. You're going to be a pilot / crewman aboard the SDF-1. You're going to essentially be a "CF Guy." Knowing that, where do you think your best chances of survival are at, piloting Valkyries or a Destroid?

I'm kind of surprised the Aussies are going with an "interim" aircraft, especially a very expensive short term fix like a Super Hornet. So the JSF is that far behind?

Of course! If you're a crewman for the biggest, most powerful, most well protected, and terribly slow mecha the UN can field, you get a special outfit!

Of those books, the only ones I don't have are Tenjin Valks and TIAS Mac 7. The ones I do have are great stuff and covers most of the core stuff of Macross. The TIAS Mac+ book has a great cover to boot. The TIAS Mac 2 book I mostly like for Haruhiko Mikimoto's art progression... and hey, a few original characters are in there for kicks. But if I was to only have 2 Macross books, they'd have to be Perfect Memory and DYRL Gold Book.