Talos

Huh, I thought I had posted that list. I just checked and it looks like I only posted it in an MSN conversation I had with Mr. March and Seto last week. Oh well!

Anyway, the first two you asterisked were right, but the third was Macross Errant (Macross-13 mission?).

Tentative release date for Vol. 5: June 26, 2010.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%9E%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B9A-%E3%82%A8%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9-VOL-005-2010%E5%B9%B4-08%E6%9C%88%E5%8F%B7/dp/B003RBEKQO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276649689&sr=1-1 It popped up on Amazon.co.jp and is available for preorder.

Looks good! That's...a lot of purple....

I need to start working on my YF-21/VF-22 again. Maybe after the VF-19, unless I get work done on the VF-9 instead.

Interesting design, this 'VF-32'. Is this supposed to be a local planetary interseptor, simular to the role the F-16 (or the japanesse version of the Falcon, forget the name & specs...)

the artist gets BZ's from me. lotta thought & love put into the artestry...

That would be the Mitsubishi F-2A/B (and please, none of that Viper Zero stuff, people). It has a larger wing, an additional pair of pylons, and a three-piece canopy, as well as Japanese electronics.

My feeling and it would be interesting to see if any of the text in the Master File or Chronicle backs this up, is that the VF-19F/S/E style airframe, which is pretty much an all-new airframe (more streamlined, more verniers), compared with the YF-19/VF-19A style, was designed to offer an improvement in overall performance over the older VF-19A and eventualy replace the VF-19A in service.

Just because the VF-19F/S is suposedly optimised for space, doesn't necessarily mean it's performance is going to be inferior in atmosphere to older versions (especially with the new longer F/S style wing fitted).

The above is just my personal theory, I have no evidence to back it up at all.

Graham

It's not so much the idea that they would or would not both be better or worse then the VF-19A in atmosphere so much as the idea that the ace fighter would sacrifice combat ability in it's primary area and make it less capable then the -grunt- unit.

Or, as an anonymous VF-19F pilot on the Endeavour said, "What? You want me to be an ace and fly that? No way, I'll stick with this. Why would they call that a 'reward'??? I'll pretend I'm not getting any kills instead. Maybe they'll pass me over!"

This makes sense, and is in-line with an elaboration I was thinking about all day at work:

The only parameters we have been presented for the VF-19E/F/S/P is in space. Therefore, we know that the listed thrust is the maximum that the engines can produce in ROCKET MODE.

MC has given additional performance info in text on the performance in atmosphere. Therefore, we know that the VF-19S has greater performance in TURBO-FANJET MODE, and the VF-19F has lesser performance.

As the reasons why it has better turbo-fanjet mode performance haven't been given, it's speculation as to why. The simplest, real-world sound explanation is that the VF-19S's engines have a higher bypass ratio. (For those that don't: an increased amount of air sent around the engine to mix with the exhaust to provide more thrust per unit of fuel (or less fuel to achieve the same amount of thrust.)

Back to fact and inferences:

It is most likey that whatever is increasing the turbo-fanjet mode performance has a detremental effect on how much propellant can be pumped into the engine in rocket mode (ie additional tubes and vents to achieve a high bypass ratio limit limit the volume of propellant that can reach the combustor).

Now back to the parameters:

We only know that the amount of thrust is for space. Do we know if that's sustained thrust or instantaneous thrust? Do we know if the max level of thrust damage the engine or if there is a performance loss the longer the engine is operating at max thrust? Perhaps the VF-19F cannot sustain their higher max thrust levels in rocket mode, but the VF-19S can.

From what I've gleened from the text, it's the general issue VF-19S, and not the specs for Docker's VF-19S. Nevertheless, it does make sense that the command model would be required to have a more general-purpose engine performance.

Actually, that doesn't make sense to me at all, Sketchley. We have a command model of a /space/-optimized aircraft. Why degrade its performance there to give it better performance back in atmosphere again? What was the point of that model in the first place? They would just build more VF-19As instead. It's not that easy to change the bypass ratio of an internal engine like that, at least not majorly. You'd have to increase the size of the fan, which causes a weight increase along with the lower top speed. It's for efficiency, not speed. That's why modern fighter engines all have bypass ratios lower then 1:1, while airliner engines have it potentially much higher (about 9:1 on the GE90, for instance).

No, I'm sticking with the simple typo that got out of hand theory. I mean, a one digit mistake (78,950 to 68,950) and the two digits are one key apart? That smells like someone with a misplaced finger to me. YMMV of course, but it makes zero sense to me to have the command models have any lower performance period. The UNS has always been based on older Japanese styles of organization (three-man shotai, for instance) and the attitude of those organizations were to give the aces the best you can. The wingmen are there to support the ace. It's not like the US with the fluid wingman relationship.

You can even see it in Frontier. Ozma's the commander of the (now four-person) shotai with Alto and Michel providing direct support and Luca providing EW support. Ozma has the ace model, which is naturally the best performing. On that note, didn't the VF-0S have something about the limiters being removed so an ace pilot could bring out its full potential?

I thought I would post this up for discussion about the high-speed mode on the YF-19 versus the original Macross Plus line art. At least this one has a place for the entire wing to go.

Graham---Thrust is a big factor when it comes to turning performance. Like most things when it comes to flight---raw power can often substitute for fancy aerodynamics.

I think that was the first line in the F-4 Phantom's flight manual!

Talos---hmmn. As FSW tends to inherently be used for VERY high alpha, I'm wondering if the highly-canted canards may be acting more like rudders in that situation, and actually used for roll control at like 50 AOA---generally you don't want to try to use ailerons to roll when at very high alpha, you'll just spin---adverse yaw in the extreme. So you use the rudders, to intentionally create proverse roll. With how back-heavy/unstable the -19 is, plus FSW, maybe it was intended to be flown with as high an alpha as possible, spend a lot of time there for pure dogfighting and have such an advantage in that area, that nothing could compete with it in certain situations? Kind of a one-trick-pony, but if it's that good of a trick...

Hmm, that brings to mind the maneuvers Isamu was doing when he first got the YF-19. Remember, when he's doing the aerial skywriting? He spends a huge chunk of that time over a 50 AOA, usually closer to 90 degrees. Maybe it was designed to be hyper-maneuverable in that regime.

Re: stubby wings having more root area/chord---if the gloves have a decent camber, they could make a lot of lift, but this is a fighter, not an airliner----a big root wouldn't be nearly as adaptable as a YF-19's wing---I'll just assume a YF-19 wing naturally has very little, symmetrical camber like an F-16, and mainly uses computer-controlled leading and trailing edge flaps to create camber as needed, instantly. A fixed glove could conceivably create just as much lift at certain angles, but couldn't be adjusted like a wing could.

In an interesting twist, the VF-19F/S has a much larger wing glove then the VF-19A. Coupled with a lower aspect inner wing, it has to be creating a lot of lift in certain areas. Maybe compensation for making the wing overall smaller?

Re: wingtip verniers. Frankly---it just has to have some. I'm thinking they're slots, like a Harrier's. There is just no way you're going to design a plane that uses verniers for primary roll control in space, and NOT put some on the wingtips! Plus, the VF-1 clearly has them there as we see them used in the opening DYRL fight, even if they're not canonically shown on the lineart AFAIK. (at best, there's a panel line in the right place, but it's not even a proper slot)

I've always been a proponent of those too, so it's been frustrating when we haven't seen them in any of the line art or even the cutaways. Puffers in the Harrier style would work just fine there, I think.

Ok, is "VF-19E" some recently-introduced-designation for Basara's? I've never seen any official -19's other than YF, A, F, S, and Kai.

Anyways---there's 2 main ways to use canards.

1. As a direct control surface, basically a forward-mounted elevator.

2. To influence the airflow going over the wing. SAAB in particular likes to use them this way---by angling the canard, you alter the angle that the airflow hits the wing leading edge, thus allowing you to control the flow over the wing before the air encounters the---this really comes into play in high-alpha situations where you may otherwise encounter flow separation. Updraft and downdraft at the leading edge of the wing is often overlooked IMHO (as is the whole circulation theory of flight/lift overall).

All that said, the -19's canards really do look more like the former, as they are too high and forward to influence the wings---they'd barely influence the gloves. But of course--those are some tiny canards. True, they are mouted far forward, thus giving them a large moment arm, especially considering how far back the -19's center of gravity must be---but the -19 is just plain huge, with "massive amounts of mass" aft---frankly I fail to see how those tiny little fins could "move that ass around", frankly.

Now as for wings:

I'm always a fan of area. Big wings have a lower loading, and a lower loading means more turning for a given speed/energy etc. Look at the trend in fighter planes----you saw many skinny-winged planes in the 50's and 60's. But then wings started getting bigger---first the F-4, then the F-15, F-16, and then up to the F-22 with its huge wing, and the YF-23 with the biggest of them all. (Swing-wings are a different category, and when swept they behave much like a delta-wing, incorporating the gloves and even tailplanes into their effective area)

However---bigger wings are simply more mass, and more drag---generally they will turn quicker, and be able to sustain any given turn rate for longer. But they are slower to respond. The best example there will ever be is the Spitfire vs Fw190. The original Spitfire due to its large elliptical wing could out-turn an Fw190. But the 190's stubbier wing could respond faster and out-roll the Spitfire---it *changed* direction so fast that the Spitfire's better turn rate was useless. So, they clipped the Spitfire's wingtips. It could now roll faster, though it had to give up some raw turn-rate.

But the real question is---how does any of THIS matter in SPACE? With how thin the outer sections of the wings are, their mass is nothing compared to the rest of the valk, and with how verniers work, the wingtip-mounted ones now have a much smaller moment-arm, which I think would be a far greater detriment to manueverability than any mass-savings could help.

Great reply, Dave, I hadn't thought to look back at the 190 and Spitfire comparison, it's a good point. On the other hand, though, I don't know if they have any verniers on the wingtips. The ones in Macross always seem to be fairly large (case in point, the smallest ones I can think of on a VF are the ones in the ankles of the VF-19F/S, really). The VF-19F/S adds another large one on the side of the leg near the knee and some on the wing roots, which would affect space roll motions.

I wonder, though, how would the canards on the VF-19A affect high-AoA maneuvers? With the thrust vectoring the VF-19 has, it could easily put its nose pretty far up there. There's a picture of a CG model doing just that in the book.

Speaking of wing area, you might enjoy this. The shorter VF-19F/S wings have a larger inner-wing area, so they don't lose nearly as much as you would think in comparison to the longer "medium" wing. It's longer, but also has a higher aspect ratio closer to the fuselage.

Very interested to hear if the book offers any explanation for the reason for the change from the forward swept wing of the A/B/C/D/E type to the F/S style wing?

Up until the E-type, the forward swept wing was standard, so what drove the change to the F/S style wing? Must be some perceived advantage?

I've actually got to the stage where I think the VF-19F/S looks far nicer than the other types.

Graham

I think it might be for space purposes, as well as increasing roll rate by keeping the mass closer to the center of gravity. I did a VF-19F a while ago and it really looks different then the VF-19A. This book really brings the two designs together, I think, and I like that a lot. I'm going to do a new one from scratch, based on my VF-19A.

The the ankle vernier ring on the 19 F/S/P/Kai can provide manoeuvring thrust at any point nearly 360 degrees around the circumference of the ankle (depending on mode), making it superior to the YF-19/VF-19A, which only circle-bar type verniers per leg.

Graham

I love the art they have of that. I had no idea those were there.

I love the pics of the VF-19A with ventral and dorsal Fold Boosters and FAST Packs.

Grahm

Don't forget the RMS-5 reaction weapons and high maneuverability missiles.

With the new release of VF-19 Master File, I couldn't resist working on my VF-19s again. I'm taking some of the additional detailing that shows up in the VF-19MF images and adding it to the VF-19A I started last year. I'll do a new VF-19F/S from scratch as well.

3rd one down.

Oh, I know you mentioned that it was there, but I meant you didn't mention it was in a retro SW1 paint scheme.

Both 100-total or 100/side still seem somewhat unreasonable.

Double dipping on the A's I see.

I was just grabbing random names and realized they were all space shuttles, so I just grabbed whichever random one was next, which happened to be Macross Andromeda.

any links to where we can order it stateside?

HMV, I think, has it, as does Amazon.co.jp. I got mine from them. Amazon ships to the US and goes pretty darn fast (just a few days for me). If you need any help ordering from them, drop me a PM and I'll answer any questions. It's pretty much just like the US site.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A1%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%96%E3%83%AB%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%BB%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB-VF-19%E3%82%A8%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9%E3%82%AB%E3%83%AA%E3%83%90%E3%83%BC-%E3%82%A8%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%83%86%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%83%A1%E3%83%B3%E3%83%88%E6%9B%B8%E7%B1%8D%E7%B7%A8%E9%9B%86%E9%83%A8/dp/4797356936/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275672225&sr=8-1

Now to get back to work on my old VF-19A line art, updating it with details from the new book.

Anyhow, some fun in the Squadron markings sections:

YF-19 Shinsei Industry Internal Test craft

YF-19 Planet Eden New Edwards Base #2 craft (M+)

YF-19 Galaxy Demonstration Tour (the one with the UNS Kite, and names of planets/bases visited under each one. Selling the VF-19, hmmm?)

YF-19 Rollout Anniversary Craft

YF-19 Galaxy Demonstration Tour (orange and white one)

VF-19C Angel Birds (!)

VF-19A Valkyries (!!)

VF-19F Emerald Force (Block 18 #102 craft)

VF-19S Emerald Force (Block 15 #101 craft)

VF-19E Nekki Basara Custom (Block 10 ? craft) Yup, that's not a mistype)

I thought the addition of Emerald Force and Sound Force logos was interesting. Didn't even pick the Emerald one out the first time I leafed through that section.

You forgot to mention that the YF-19 Galaxy Demonstration Tour one with the UNS Kites on it is painted in Roy Fokker's VF-1S colors.

Got my copy of VF-19 Master File finally and thought I would give some quick thoughts on it from my initial leafing through.

Awesome stuff:

VF-19A cutaway (drool-worthy)

A true, proper two-seater 1st generation VF-19 (VF-19B/D)

Long and short-winged VF-19F/S

Diagram of the way the wings can fold on the VF-19A, including a Grumman-style folding for the hangar (swept all the way back and rotated 90 degrees to lie flat against the engines)

Did I mention the cutaway?

Not so awesome:

Some of the CGI wasn't up to the standards of the line art. Case in point, the YF-21 on page 23.

VC-19V VIP-Calibur. Seriously reminds me of the ideas explored about making a B-58A Hustler derivative fast troop transport.

Sketchley, you're absolutely right, that's definitely a modified VF-11B FAST pack they show the VF-19A with. Note the round large exhaust nozzle instead of the two smaller round ones. As far as the triangular radome on the AEW&C one, that reminds me of just about any advanced or futuristic AWACS design idea that any manufacturer has these days. I don't know of any being made off the top of my head, but they are definitely realistic.

There was an interesting little thing on one of the colored profile pages in the back. On the DYRL-style one there was a bunch of named Macross ships on it, including Macross Galaxy, Frontier, Seven, Eleven (I know...), and a bunch of non-canonical ones like Macross Atlantis, Macross Endeavo(u)r, Macross Chal(l)enger, Macross Andromeda, and Macross Pioneer, as well as Planet Eden and some other planets.

That was fast... I only mentioned the topic to you five minutes ago.

Yeah, that's almost certainly the culprit... though I don't recall ever seeing it up close in battroid mode. (Convenient model and texture reuse, making it a khaki VF-25G)

I don't think we ever saw a CF VF-25 in battroid or GERWALK period. Heck, they didn't even get a full FAST pack setup.

's probably the khaki VF-25s we see during the final few episodes... I think I may have this issue. I'll check when I get home.

And there it is, in episode 7.

Just got notice from Amazon Japan that mine has shipped by FedEx.

Can't wait.

Graham

I got that last night. Fedex is faster then Amazon.co.jp, apparently. The tracking info says I should have it in my hands in just about 24 hours. Amazon was estimating several more days.

I can totally picture Haruhi shouting BOMBA

Actually, it was Kyon who did that in the anime. Haruhi said "Listen to my Song!"

(That actually did happen during the episode preview for the school festival concert episode)

Is there anywhere that's still selling these? All the preorders from the usual places are gone.

Amazon.co.jp is still showing it available for pre-order, if that helps. They do ship internationally.

Graham, I know how you feel! I placed my pre-order on January 6th and with any luck I'll get it sometime between June 5th and 8th.

Updates!

I redid my YF-21 and VF-22S line art and added a special custom one for Mr. March. I also did up a Virgin Road VF-1D color profile for M3 too. It's been a fun diversion to do some non-shaded, non-realistically-colored art.

Don't forget Elma!

Oh, good point! We did forget her.

C'mon... what were you expecting? It's a manga targeted towards teenage boys, so of course they're going to try to get their attention a little with a bit of cheesecake before delving into the story at large. It doesn't really do much to impact the story either way. I'm not sure why more recent Macross titles think the title's resident "Minmay" always needs a furry little companion... it just feels unnecessary to me. Enika didn't really need one in Macross 7 Trash, though much of my antipathy toward Ai-kun is probably a result of loathing Ranka.

I'm inclined to agree, Minmay's original chinese dress was cut pretty high up way back in '82, so I don't think it's really fanservice to have a similar amount of leg showing in her slightly-redesigned dress unless they're being blatant about it (like that bit with her dress and a breeze, or her sitting on her cart in volume 1 in a pose designed to show off her figure).

Besides Mylene, has any of the female leads had a furry pet before Ranka? (Trash excepted, of course)

Hmm, not quite a cart, though, Seto.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~ptn/Aircraft/FL200.html (Ignore the name and all, just the pic)

I haven't seen #4 yet, but the amount of gratuitious fan service in Macross the First (especially compared to the original series) does bother me, too. Shower scene apart (it was there in the first place) we see: Minamay losing her dress and showing (even if we don't see it) her breast in front of VF1D, Hikaru nosebleed when he sees her with sexy legs, the photographers going wild when the wind uncovers Minmay underwear (presumably she is wearin it). Heck, even the cover for the first MTF tankobon makes me scream. Maybe I'm just too old for these things (or maybe it's the whole stupid pet animal introduced in the comics that makes me mad...).

Seto Kaiba and I were just talking about that in IM, actually. I've noticed a distinct trend in the most recent volume to not show as much cheesecake fanservice as before. I get the feeling it was just to get readers reading the new series. Looking through the latest ones in vol #4, for instance, I only really count a couple cheesecake fanservice drawings of Minmay (and one of Misa on the floor). I don't consider a normal drawing of her standing that happens to show a lot of leg because she isn't wearing a skirt past her knees fanservice, though. Besides that, flashbacks, and covers, which are meant to draw attention, there was a massively-lessor amount in this one compared to the first few.

And yes, compared to all the Frontier manga that follow it in the magazine, Macross the First is on a lower order of magnitude.

The last I saw (in a picture posted by a MW member from a recent convention) it said, release date, end of May.

Given that they are publishing previews, I have a gut feeling that they're sticking to the end of May release date.

I just checked my preorder on Amazon.co.jp and it's showing June 2nd as the release date now (and in my hands between June 5th-8th).

Hlj had them at a great price recently. But they're sold out.

I was never a big max fan, but this is a seriously beautiful valk.

Yep, I grabbed it from HLJ when they had it on sale. Including Fedex shipping, which took 3 or 4 days, it only cost me about $80. It's sitting in fighter mode on my dresser right now.