Seto Kaiba

Palladium Books has been inching closer to the abyss for ages now. It's just a matter of time before they take the final step and plunge right out of business. They keep churning out more of the same old thing, more Rifts products and periodically some additions to the fantasy line. Kevin Siembieda's unwillingness to explore the opportunities available with new titles and licences is killing Palladium just as surely as the theft and sabotage have. The Palladium RPG system needs a facelift badly, and he's too damn proud to do it. He doesn't want to abandon the system and games he's become comfortable with, so as a result Palladium has essentially become irrelevant to the entire industry. Even getting the Robotech RPG licence back won't save them at this point, since in all honesty, it's nothing new. Unless they offer something from the upcoming new Robotech series (Shadow Chronicles) in their new Robotech RPG, it won't have much appeal for anyone, even the die-hard Robotech fans. Maybe if he revamped the entire system, and included material from Shadow Chronicles, and if Shadow Chronicles REALLY takes off, then they might have a chance to stay in business. What they really need are about ten new titles, and a complete reevaluation of the entire Palladium game system. Of course, neither of those things are likely to ever happen. I think it's pretty likely that Harmony Gold will renew their licence to the Robotech RPG. Harmony Gold isn't big on doing anything new or original, and they tend to stick to what works for them, like using familiar characters, mecha and voices in even their newest works, and sticking to the same idea for a sequel no matter how many times it fails. (Shadow Chronicles is an extension of the failed concept for Robotech II: The Sentinels) So I don't think Harmony Gold will seriously even consider other comapnies unless Palladium out and out tells them that they're going under next tuesday. Mercifully both Palladium Books and Harmony Gold are so far out of touch with the demands of the fans, and the flow of the entire gaming industry that it's likely that very few people would even notice that either or both had gone out of business. If one or both died, other companies would pick up the licences that could turn make a decent profit, and let the others fall, and most of the world would be none the wiser. It's gotten so bad with Harmony Gold that people have to blast them with petitions and complaints in order to get products released, or even defective products replaced. I'm sure some of you know about the defective DVDs from the Southern Cross series, and the ongoing petition for merchendise from same. Mostly their administration turns a deaf ear to it. Palladium's a little wiser, and at least pretends to listen to the complaints.

Hmmm... pretty good. It's a little out of scale for a Mardook/Zentradi battleship, since those seem to top out around 4000m long excluding the mobile fortress belonging to Ingues. Still, that aside you've got a pretty good handle of the Mardook/Zentradi hull texture and overall look. The shape of the hull and the position of the tower on the rear remind me a little more of the pre-salvage SDF-1 than a Marduk ship, or maybe the flying bridge from the Mardook version of the Thuverl Salan class. All told, it's a good piece of work, well drawn and a good beginning from which you can flesh the design out more.

Glad you like it, I'll agree with you that there should've been more done with the big space battles, especially the one at the finale. They only show a fraction of the battle because the main character was a civilian, and they were more focused with showing his angle than the military's. Though there weren't 120 Macross Cannons at the last battle, they only mentioned the existance of six of them during the last battle. When it came up in the dialogue, Capt. Balzae asked "Why only four?" and his aide replied "two more are en route." Seeing more of the U.N. Spacy's own warships instead of the ones taken from the Zentradi would've been a nice touch to the space battles. Sure they modified the ships to launch newer Valkyries, and stenciled a UN logo on them, but the fighting is still done mostly by Zentradi-style ships. I would've liked to see more of the Gloria and Heracles class ships, and maybe even some more to do with the rescue carrier ship that picked up Silvie and Hibiki, and the gunships that make up the rank and file of the human ships. That's not entirely the case. Sure the marketing for additional models, toys, etc. practically writes itself when you add specialized models of mecha for main characters, but it's nothing unique to any mecha series. It's been practically a tradition as long as there's been giant robot anime to give the main characters their own specal model of mecha, or a special paint scheme to tell them apart from the rank and file expendable extras. Look at how Hikaru mysteriously got a VF-1J right off the bat, with a different color scheme, when the rest of the recruits flew brown VF-1A's. Or how Max and Milia got special color schemes. Or how in Full Metal Panic, Sousuke got the ARX-7. It's not so much for commercialism as it is for getting the main characters to stand out and be different from the expendable extras. Another of the interesting aspects that comes out that proves that Macross II isn't a DYRL carbon copy. You could compare the UN Spacy in Macross II to the Soviet military during the cold war, when the government exercised massive censorship of the press to save face, even when things weren't going well. And you had one borderline crazy reporter determined to get the truth out, which got him locked up, and likely nearly executed, very like Russia under Stalin. Then you had the very Hitler-esque Mardook, where disobedience is punished by death, and where the goal is to wipe out everything other than the "master race" as Ingues plans to wipe out every non-Mardook species. Thank you, I hope you'll enjoy my work as well.

Is it just me or did all the other threads in here vanish? I'm getting caught up on a grading backlog, then I'll be back into the website stuff.

I never said I was on a quest to correct everybody, I'm just working to provide the most complete set of information possible for the enjoyment of the fans of Macross II. The unavailability of good Macross II websites and information is a sticking point for a lot of fans that want to know more about the series, and providing accurate, canon information is tied into that as well. Sorry we got a little off topic. But you can only say so much about "I like Macross II because" before it gets really old, and talking more about the series in detail is definately helping keep the thread moving. So long as I'm here and Azrael's asking to get back on topic, I'll give this thread a kick more towards the spirit of the original post. I'd be interested to hear from all of you what your favorite mecha is from Macross II, and why. Personally I rather like the Gigamesh flown by Feff. Taken with the more conventional designs used by the UN and the Zentradi, the Mardook's one or two new types of mecha definately deserved more screen time than they got. Feff's personal Gigamesh just has such an utterly malevolent fell to it, from the obsidian-black faceplate with the glowing red eyes, to the fact that the thing is bristling with close combat weapons, like the extendable fingers, toes and wings, and the missile launchers hidden in the forearms. It's got a lot more of an organic feeling to it than the Nosjadeul Ger or Queadluun Rau. Can't say I care much for the generic head for it, which had that odd little beak, but the Feff variant was something that needed more screen time than it got. That aside, the revision to the Nosjadel Ger was nice for the Zentradi, gave it a more streamlined feeling, and made it look a little more organic and alien, and a little less mechanical. Same general mecha, just looks a little more like a blend between the original Queadluun Rau and Nosjadeul Ger models, with those large engines behind the shoulder joint, and the slightly less pronounced head.

Buddy, knowing Kevin and his writing style as well as I do, I can tell you right now that I have NEVER treated his RPG books as a canon source of information on the mecha, characters or anything else in Macross II. On multiple occasions I've sat down to have a chat with the good folks at Palladium Books about it, and to start to put right what they put wrong. It's not like they did it out of malice, or in some attempt to ruin Macross II, their goal was to provide a RPG that was within the constraints of the Macross II timeline and mecha, and be as close to canon as possible while still providing a game that was both enjoyable and fair. So I do think you may be judging them a little harshly. All told they did us all a minor service in those books by using selected art from the "THIS IS ANIMATION SPECIAL" on Macross II, making it much much easier to find. Here's a few examples of some of the things I've put right using the available canon materials, common sense, and a healthy dash of mathematics and some evidence from the animation: The size of the Heracles class carrier, as listed in his books, is 305m long. This blatantly contradicts obvious evidence in the anime itself, namely several shots of the Heracles class sitting in port next to a Zentradi carrier, a Quiltra Queleual class carrier, and two of the UN Spacy frigates, all of which are nearly the same size as the Quiltra Queleual. That puts their sizes respectively around 3000m long each. Calculating backwards from other visual evidence of known scale, including the size of mecha making suicide runs on them, gives me a similarly large answer. The size of the Macross Cannon, which is listed as a little under 500m contradicts all the visible evidence, including shots of it docked with a mobile fortress identical to that used by Bodolzaa during the original series, and the idea of it having four Nupetiet Vergnitz prows for guns. My calculations and estimates put it at being about 4800m long. So you see Skull Leader, I'm well aware Kevin's material isn't canon, and I know full well the huge number of problems he introduced. That's why I've made it my own little quest, so to speak, to correct what he's put wrong, and provide a more realistic estimate of the mecha, characters and weaponry based on the animation and more credible canon sources, including the "This is Animation Special" book on Macross II. The problem is that while I and most of you might know that his material isn't canon, and in many cases doesn't make sense (like saying the Macross Cannon can't fly in atmosphere and on the next page printing art of it flying through the clouds), there are a lot of people out there who haven't got all the evidence in front of them, and so end up using the Palladium Books RPG as their main resource, simply because it's easier to find and read than the "This is Animation Special" volume on Macross II. The art is still perfectly good, since it's mostly taken from the Animation Special book anyways, but it's the stats that are the sticky subject and lead to the majority of sites using the "Marduk" spelling.

Since when did an out-of-print overseas RPG carry more weight than Bandai Visual and the Macross II creators themselves? That's even further from the source than Manga Entertainment's release, which is already wrong in this particular instance. 392761[/snapback] Actually, you'll find that the english articles for Macross II and Marduk also carry the "Mardook" spelling. So using them might make things a little easier for those who aren't perfectly fluent in Japanese. I speak and read it pretty well, well enough to not make a fool of myself in public with it, but I wouldn't quite call myself totally fluent in it. The out-of-print RPG books shouldn't carry more weight than Bandai Visual's official spelling for it, or the creator's official word on the matter. However, you do have to factor in that the vast majority of the webmasters who are putting content about Macross II on their sites are working with the materials they can lay hands on, which in this case happens to be that very same out of print RPG book series, and the DVD with the misspelling in the subtitles. Factor that in and it's small wonder why "Marduk" and "Mardook" are used interchangably by most sites. My own site has an article on it in the works, so it's not like I'm ignoring the matter either. The only sites that carry Macross II stuff that I'm aware of that actually use the Mardook spelling are the Macross Compendium and MAHQ. Moving on... Now now let's not flame Macross_Fanboy, he's not been grounded, he's just goofing off in Japan on the government's nickel. Personally I don't share his views on Macross 7. The mecha and story just seemed a little contrived to me. Especially the bit about the military entrusting a bunch of civilian musicians with extremely expensive military equipment, including variable fighters, and then pulling some pseudo-spiritual BS and taking the whole idea of using music in combat from simply singing at the enemy over the radio as a diversionary measure and psychological assault to the idea of using music itself as a weapon, by firing little speakers at the enemy. That's just stretching sanity a little bit. Macross II does have a lot in common with DYRL, that's not being denied by anyone, but it does have unique elements of it's own.

After a much closer examination, I find nothing in common between the F/A-18 and the VF-1. The angle of the tail is one thing, but that is neither unique to the F/A-18, nor distinctive enough to merit calling them related designs. It's simply an efficiant aircraft design. The overall shape of the VF-1's body, as well as the vast majority of the details are lifted straight from the F-14. I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that the F/A-18 was involved, but even looking at it from the side, I don't see this similarity that you're on about. A lot of fighters look alike, that doesn't mean that the F/A-18 was partial inspiration for the VF-1. You're grasping at straws here.

I'm not seeing much in the way of similarity to the F/A-18 aside from the angle of the tail. Other than that it's pretty much all F-14. One element in common does not a design relationship make.

Okay, for starters, nice references and kudos on the Japanese lesson, but I think it might've been a little easier on everyone to provide the Wikipedia articles in english, since I'm not entirely sure how many of us actually read Japanese fluently, much less at all. There's a reason that the accepted spelling is used a lot more often than the official one. It's strictly a matter of pronunciation. People don't feel comfortable groping around at words with strange spellings, so opting for something that is already at least moderately used in the English language makes it that much easier for people to muddle their way through the pronunciation. Take that and the fact that "Marduk" and "Mardook" sound virtually identical when spoken, and you've got pretty good reason for people remembering the common spelling more than the official one. It's also used that way on the vast majority of the websites that deal with Macross II, because of the prevalence of the Macross II RPG, which used the "Marduk" spelling. Still, since they changed the spelling/pronunciation of "Marduk" and "Gilgamesh" it does lead you to wonder why the other major Babylonian reference, "Ishtar" got through relatively unscathed.

Hey man, sorry I haven't gotten back to you. It's been a little hectic getting twelve computers online all at once. I'm still getting my site online.

Hey guy! LOL! ANYWAYS, Macross II sucked, I liked the character designs and music, but the mecha were straight ugly and the UN was just plain awful unlike in the other shows. The movie put my brother to sleep and I tried my best to stay awake. I got no laughs from it...well at one point I kinda laughed after I saw the noticable decline in the animation quality. It was too long and didn't keep my interest since it's pretty much stuff I've already seen as some say it's a remake of DYRL? It took me a while to track it down and worst of all it was a waste of my 20 or 30 dollars and that was what I got? F-that! I don't quite remember the price of the thing but I know for sure that the store had a no-return policy once I opened it! Worst...Macross...EVER!!!!! 391880[/snapback] I was wondering when you'd finally show up. You guys see what I gotta put up with? Irrational hatred of Macross II because Kawamori wasn't involved. Personally, I'll always like Macross II better than the others because it was the first one I was ever really introduced to that wasn't named "Robotech" to begin with, and to me, the characters were easier to relate to, especially Feff. The mecha designs were defiantely another strong point that drew me to it. But the thing that really cinched it was Macross Plus and Macross 7. I really just can't stand the characters in Macross Plus, the relationships felt forced, and I really just didn't like the YF-21. Then there's the entirety of Macross 7, which I won't get into, for fear of starting a flame war.

Perhaps you've missed something... In every piece of animation without fail, there is always a moment or two where the animation quality lapses because you have a small army of animators, and they can't always draw it perfectly every time. Good examples in Macross include moments like when Hikaru sees Minmay and Kaifun kissing and goes on a rampage in the original Macross series, or when Basara's VF-19's face suddenly becomes distorted in a few episodes. Hell, you even see this kind of thing in Disney movies, and other professional, conventional animation. CGI is a quick fix, but periodically even then you get problems. The animation quality overall in Macross II is good, considering it came right before using computer enhancement in the animation process was truly developed. There are one or two very brief lapses in quality, I'm thinking of two scenes in the last episode where the other Fairy squad members are fighting without Silvie, and there are some errors in the head and body of the VF-2SS for about two seconds. That aside, the animation quality's pretty good. Granted, there are weak links in the voice acting too, but that again is nothing unique to Macross II. The Japanese voice acting is better than the english in most cases, especially in terms of Feff and Ingues. The Japanese voice actors did a little better job, but the quality is relatively consistant. You get little areas of bad quality in any animation project, EVA, Patlabor, Ghost in the Shell, you name it. These things are nothing new or unique, even in Macross. Many of the things that Kawamori put in the mouths of Basara, Mylene, and Gamlin would make a writer's brain twist, and makes me want to physically hurt the characters. Granted again, the idea of a civilian reporter of moderate intellect and half-baked piloting talent flying directly into an enemy warship at the behest of the camera guy is more than a bit nuts, especially when he's not carrying any weapons. Though it is understandable, since Ishtar's ship was in a really bad way, full of holes from UN bombardment, and about to explode anyways. All told, Hibiki's actions aren't much out of line from some combat reporters I know personally, who do such stupid and reckless things for a good shot that they'd make even Hibiki blanch. Speaking from experience, combat field reporters are the third most stupid animals on Earth, beaten out only by lemmings and chickens. And last but not least, before I wrap this up and get some much-needed and deserved rest, I turn my attention to the guy (I at least am presuming you are male, correct me if I'm wrong) named Retroborg. Dude, your enthusiasm is great and all, and that you love it so much warms my heart, but you can stop with the imageshack-hosted pictures any time now. Not only have we all seen these mecha before, but imageshack is a royal pain in the ass. If you've got something really relevant, use the attachments feature in your post instead. It's right under the post icons and post options section. It convienantly thumbnails and eliminates the need for a billion hyperlinks. Though if you really want to thrill to Macross II mecha that badly, when my site goes back online in a few days, we'll be showcasing some Macross II art that was made specifically for my site by a group of fanartists. One of the artists in question shows mad love for the Metal Siren and the destroids. The Kaiba has spoken! (and is now off to sleep)

My sincerest apologies... guess I'm still used to people saying that and actually meaning it. Especially this one recurring nightmare on my own site, USN Hornet Pilot aka Totsugeki Love Heart!!!!!, who says that pretty much hourly. For starters, there are actually two volumes of the soundtrack floating around. What you have there is Volume I, which was released in the United States, and has a different label for the stateside release, in a blue case with a watercolor of Wendy and Ishtar on the front. Volume II I don't believe was released stateside, has Feff and Ishtar on the cover, and has most of the orchestral tracks, as well as the full and reprise versions of the ending theme, without the annoying english lyrics. Regrettably I don't have time to translate all the track names right now, since my copy's liner is printed in Japanese. If you're looking to get your hands on them both, may I recommend Amazon.com, which is where I got some copies of both volumes for a very good price. Mr. Holy 16 years ago, it's 14 years, do the math please. Macross II was a 1992-93 affair, which puts it at 14 years ago. And you have to remember that unlike televised runs-forever swill like Friends, later eps of The Simpsons, and Seinfeld, most anime doesn't get that kind of televised exposure over here, so unlike those american shows, when someone finds it it IS new to them, because they've likely never seen it before and possibly never even heard of it before. People here still gush over anime they just saw, even when it's 20 years old or more! Retroborg, my pleasure to continue to be informative. Hopefully in a few days my website will take over being excessively informative for me, now that I've got my computer back from the shop. If you're up for a little more Macross II-y goodness, you can look into the comic series Macross II: The Micron Conspiracy, the Palladium Books Macross II: The Role-Playing Game and the MAME32-based Macross II arcade emulator.

Now there's a closed-minded statement if ever I read one. It's exactly this sort of reasoning that prevents them from enjoying one of the better Macross features out there. Try watching it with an open mind, and you might actually like it. Being a pretty big Macross II fan myself, I'd say that the voice acting was mostly good, but there were one or two weak bits in Japanese (in some scenes Feff's voice completely lacks the emotion on his face). There's also one or two scenes where the animation quality isn't quite up to snuff with the average quality of the series, but most of them are short bits and near the end too. Just FYI the general accepted spelling is "Marduk" not "Mardook," as is seen throughout the subtitles. Most of the character and mecha names from the Marduk side of the war are barely veiled references to various gods, literature and other figures from the Babylon. Marduk being the chief god and having the largest of the cult followings right around the era of Hammurabi. Ishtar's a promanent character in the epic of Gilgamesh (which happens to be the accepted name of Feff's power armor), etc. etc. The Macross II RPG books attempt to delve into why the Marduk seem to follow a Babylonian theme, but such isn't canon. About Ingues giving the orders to destroy rebellious elements of his own fleet... maybe it's just me, but the overall sound of his voice in Japanese sounds a lot like the old WW2 era recordings of Adolf Hitler's public speeches. You also get another kind of creepy deja vu moment when the Marduk battlepods ram down the twin towers of the UN Headquarters buildings. Your enthusiasm for Macross II is greatly appreciated, by me at least. Macross II doesn't get quite as much love as the other series on this site, for a variety of reasons. There'll also be a few like fansubs2000, who turn up their noses at it simply because Kawamori wasn't involved. You'd probably feel right at home on my site as well, where I'm rebuilding my somewhat modest collections of Macross II mecha art, character art, etc. so that Macross II can get a little more exposure. I'd say that placing songs like "Only your friend" (Wendy's song from the Moon Festival), Ishtar's final song "Love You," and "The Hush of 200 Million Years" might be a little generous. They're good songs, and I definately think some of the more orchestral stuff is worthy of notice too. Putting them above a classic like "Do you remember love?" might be a little drastic, but nearly every song in any Macross series is better than the swill that ended up in Robotech. Still, the Valkyrie II, the Gilgamesh power armor, and the other mecha from Macross II are some of the best I've seen. (Attached is a nice little bit I've been using for an avatar on MSN, Feff's custom Gilgamesh, from one of it's more malevolent looking scenes).

Any particular reason why?

So shoot me; and for your information, I got the designation from this site HERE. I was relying on a source of information that purports itself as being accurate; therefore, your nitpicking of a single letter (is it J of G?) is rather arrogant. Also, although I haven't done it myself, a lot of people just write VF-2 or VF-2S or VF-2J as shorthand... everybody knows perfectly well which VFs they are referring to. 388684[/snapback] Naturally, I make a comment about multiple people not getting the names of the mecha right, and one person decides to take it as a personal slight. I assure you I'm not singling anyone out. To clarify, there were all sorts of interesting naming mistakes being made on all sides, and I even caught myself in one, so please don't assume I'm pointing fingers at you. The actual name of the "Gerwalkroid" as cited by somewhat better known and more authoritative sites (including MAHQ), and also in the RPG books and a few other places, is AGA-1JF, which has been hypothesized by several to stand for Assault Ground and Air Jet Fighter type 1. The only places I've seen the AJA name used are M2M and a single geocities site run by the Antikevs. In the interest of fairness, we'll call that one as up in the air, since it's the mechanical equivalent of a chimera, a destroid and a valkyrie sort of melded into a single unit. An interesting design nonetheless. But calling a VF-2SS or a VF-2JA a VF-2S or VF-2J would be about the same as me calling a VF-19 a VF-1 as shorthand, it makes it easy for anyone reading it to get confused about what the actual subject is, especially if they haven't seen Macross II in a while, or have been reading some of those wacked out Robotech sites that call some thing pirated from Orguss as the VF-2. But I digress... I've been looking at a fighter on Nanashi's called the VF-XS Valkyrie II prototype, and noting some interesting similarities in it's design not only to the somewhat more modern VF-2SS Valkyrie II, but also to the Metal Siren's design. Not entirely sure where Nanashi's got this thing, but it seems to me to be either a rejected VF-2SS design, or a possible A-type head for the Valkyrie II. As to comparing it to the Valkyrie II itself, the armor guards for the elbows and wrists are more pronounced, the feet are somewhat more narrow, and the top of the chest lacks the large projections on the Valkyrie II. Also, the "backpack" type engine in battroid mode is much less pronounced. There's one thing that doesn't look quite like it belongs, a rather odd airbrake system made up of the panels of the chest and legs. Looking at the head, I can't help but see a little bit of similarity between the VF-XS and the Metal Siren in terms of the head's elongated back and the arrangement of the face and forehead.

Well, I don't think it's that related to Scrambled Valkyrie, since the VF-1SOL-S looks nothing like any other fighter in the Macross II timeline, but it does eerily resemble the VF-0. The only game that comfortably fits into the Macross II style is Macross 2036, and only then because of the VF-1SR's alarming similarity to the VF-2SS's stylings. (Look around the head of it, you'll see what I mean). Note that I said the same BASIC design, not the same design. Just like how there are multiple versions of most models of car, some with more seats, some with more features, etc. etc. that might not be the same length. Take the Ford F-150 for example (since I used to do PR for Ford, I know this particular vehicle intimately). The super cab and crew cab are different lengths, giving the back row either just as space or as an actual row of seats, yet they're still the same overall design. Just like how cockpits of certain models of fighters are adjusted or lengthened to fit two crew members instead of one, etc. Sufficed to say they share enough characteristics in common, design wise, to be called a single family or a single generation of fighters, variants of the overall VF-2 design family. Kind of like how the VF-1SR and VF-1 look somewhat, but not entirely similar.

Okay, this is starting to get a little on the annoying side... if you're going to debate, at least have the common courtesy to get the names of the mecha right. It's the AGA-1JF, not AJA, and the VF-2SS not VF-2S. To refresh your memories the names of the fighters are: VF-2SS Valkyrie II VF-2JA Icarus VF-?(1)MS Metal Siren VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie Zinjo, almost all variable fighters are multipurpose, but that never stopped them from being classified as VF instead of VF/A. And to me there really isn't much wrong with having the two different applications of a common design like the VF-2SS and 2JA. They're the same basic airframe, but they're used for two different applications, with mildly different equipment. Naming the AGA-1JF a 1JF was deliberate, since it's not a valkyrie. It does not transform, and for all intents and purposes, it's basically a permanent gerwalk, and by the way it's designed and shown in Macross II seems to indicate that it's something like an attack helecopter destroid. It's not carrying enough guns to be a full-on destroid, and it's primary strength seems to be light guns and missiles, not too dissimilar from a support helecopter. It's the first of it's kind, so hence the number 1. As for the VF-XX, I can say that it's fatally flawed to call it a flying wing, since the fighter mode has almost NO wing whatsoever. If I had to put a school of design to the VF-XX I'd say it was more of a lifting body than a flying wing. Flying wings, like the B-2 spirit, are ALL wing, they've just a big wing with the cockpit jammed front and center. A lifting body is more like the space shuttle, which for it's size has very little in the way of wing surface and relies on the underside of the body to provide additional lift. As for the actual naming system, maybe they decided to number them based on their airframe similarity to the VF-1, or they decided to disavow the unified numbering system. For the most part, there isn't really anything wrong with the numbering system in Macross II or Macross 7, but for little wrinkles like the VF-XX, and the semi-unnamed Metal Siren, which aren't conventional designs, so it seems that they might've just taken the easy way out and decided to develop a separate, letter-based numbering system for the more Zentradi-like designs. I suppose that more than one fighter might fit into that too, with the variable glaug from earlier games, and the VF-XX from Macross II.

Quick interruption, Penguin... You do know that in real militaries, they do not always follow a numerical sequence for designating new technologies introduced. Sure, lately we've been working on a numerical scale, going F-14, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, F/A-22... but there have been others taken out of sequence, including the F-111. Or should the B-2 Spirit have been made BEFORE the B-52? Numerical designation is not an effective yardstick to measure what was introduced into service and when. If you want to get strictly down to it, the term VF-1MS cropped up mostly in the Palladium books and other references, discounting Animation Special #5. They started calling it the VF-1MS and it just sort of stuck. The name is semi-official, thanks in part to Palladium, and in part to some sections of the DVD. However, like I said, an official designation for the Metal Siren was never really mentioned. There are also, like I said, other mentions which put the Metal Siren at other numbers. There are enough design commonalities in the appearance of the VF-2SS and the VF-4 to include the VF-4 Lightning III in the timeline, since there is nothing there to exclude it explicitly or implicitly from the timeline. VF-1MS/YF-1MS following a head lettering scheme doesn't quite fit, since it's definately got a unique head, maybe the M is standing for that and the S for space, but more likely it's just short for Metal Siren. Good analogy on the "VF-XX" it's another mystery fighter whose fighter mode actually only exists in art, and was never shown front and center in the animation. Palladium's excuse was that it was a limited-production model designed for Zentradi pilots. Still, since it rather defies conventional valkyrie designs in not having a GERWALK mode, and looking to be rather the long-lost cousin of the variable glaug, it's true name should probably remain up in the air. The Variable Glaug looks rather like a Nosjadeul Ger when in battroid, and the VF-XX looks rather like a Queadluun Rau power armor in battroid mode. I'd say that if I had to assemble an approximate development timeline, I'd probably end up repeating myself somewhat from earlier posts with this little theorized timeline. The larger gaps are filled with mecha that bear strong design similarities to the VF-2SS and VF-2JA (namely the VF-1SR from Macross 2036 and the "VF-2A" which Nanashi calls the VF-XS). The reason I've numbered them in the order I have would reflect the same shift Kawamori made away from the design of the VF-4 and to a more traditional battroid design (VF-11) in another form, with the VF-1SR. HYPOTHESIZED TIMELINE - NOT CANON VF-0 Phoenix (~2008) VF-1 Valkyrie (2009) VF-4 Lightning (2020) VF-1SR Valkyrie (2036) VF-2A Valkyrie II (2060) VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie (2070) VF-2SS Valkyrie II (2075) VF-2JA Icarus (2075) VF-3MS Metal Siren (2089) HYPOTHESIZED TIMELINE - NOT CANON

If you look carefully, there are actually three of those shields. One on each of the SAP pack's wings, and one on the top of the backpack, along the centerline, just above the secondary engines. Like every other part of the Superiority Armor Packs, the shields conceal missile launchers, though in this case they're significantly larger missiles with a larger range. Each of the triangular panels on the arms (5 per arm) and each on the legs (4 per leg) conceal 3 mini-missiles. The two trapezoidal panels at the leading edge of each of the shields hides the missile launcher, they open by sliding horizontally outwards and splitting along the leading edge of the shield to allow the missile to clear the launcher. Judging by the size of the missile fired in the animation, I find the RPG book's claims that each only holds a single missile per tube a little off. My best guess is 2-3 per tube, with six tubes (2 per shield). And so long as people are talking about the good ol' Metal Siren, I thought it might be time to bring up an interesting little chat that some of the members on my website have been having about the Metal Siren. What we've been talking about is exactly HOW to classify the Metal Siren. The general working name for it has been the VF-1MS Metal Siren, but looking at other VF-1-based fighters doesn't really support that. Look at other fighters that share a similar name/number relationship, the VF-1 and VF-1SR. They are visibly related through common airframe design. The airframe looks nearly identical, but for a few refinements in the head, hands and FAST pack system. Or you could take the Sound Force custom jobs, which were given their own codes, like VF-11 MAXL. They still bear a visible relationship with their original model. I think you'll all agree with me that the Metal Siren really has very very little in common with the other VF-1 family like the VF-1 Valkyrie or the VF-1SR. In various sources, it's called the VF-1MS. What is suspected as a slipup in the printing of the RPG sourcebook one has it listed in one entry as the VF-MS Metal Siren, following the no-number pattern that the VF-XX used. But since the Metal Siren will likely either be a special operations valkyrie like the VF-17, or a new main variable fighter, it would definately have to have a number. So we've been postulating on exactly where it fits. Since VF-1MS and VF-MS don't quite seem to suit, for reasons of design lineage and probable end use, there are a few other numbers that have cropped up in discussion that seem a little more or less suitable. The most common one that seems to fit is VF-3MS. The general logic there is that since the Metal Siren has no visible relationship to any other existing model, it should get it's own number. Convienantly enough, VF-1, 2 and 4 happen to be taken, but not 3, which equally convienantly follows 2. (Technically VF-3 is taken, but only in the non-canon Macross: Remember Me, a 1993 PC game). Two websites that I'm aware of are calling it the VF-4MS. I'm not entirely sure why, since it has nothing visually in common with the VF-4 Lightning III, but for a non-canon VF-4 Siren that appeared in a video game. There are a few others, but those two make the most sense. I would be most grateful to hear your thoughts on the matter, and with your permission, I might add a little bit of any good posted arguments to an article on naming the Metal Siren that'll be appearing on my website.

Actually Skull Leader, you WERE wrong in the names. There is no VF-2S or VF-2J. The fighters in Macross II are rather odd in that they all have a number and TWO letters, with one exception, which discounts the number. If you don't believe me, check Mahq, or use google to search for "VF-2S Valkyrie" (which will ask you if you mean "VF-2SS Valkyrie"), or google for VF-2SS Valkyrie and VF-2JA Icarus. ;-) Also try "This is Animation Special #5" which also calls them the VF-2SS and VF-2JA. The Valkyrie II without it's armor is the VF-2SS Valkyrie II. The Valkyrie II with it's armor is the VF-2SS SAP Valkyrie II, or VF-2SS Valkyrie II w/ SAP system (SAP = Super Armor Pack / Superiority Armor Pack) The Icarus is the VF-2JA Icarus. The generally used name for the Metal Siren is the VF-1MS Metal Siren. (Though VF-3MS and VF-4MS have also been seen in various sources) The only general exception in Macross II is the so-called Zentradi Valkyrie, which was given the name VF-XX. Even one of the destroids, the AGA-1JF, follows the two-letter and one-number pattern.

Demand? Nah, it was more of a polite request. I just feel sorry I ever brought it up in the first place. *shaking head slowly* Looks like they latched onto it and are unwilling to let it go. Needless to say I have no great love of Gundam series after Gundam Wing. Kinda like Star Trek, they just won't take a bloody hiatus for a few years and get some fresh material. ComicKaze, didn't you do a CGI of a VF-2SS in battroid mode orbiting Earth? If that was you, great work, superb stuff. I'm with you on your view of the Valkyrie II. My main reason for liking it so much isn't the big guns, or the huge number of missiles, but rather the fact that it's smooth, sleek and streamlined design reminds me so much of a high-performance sportscar. The look of it just screams how fast it is, and gives it a much more dynamic feel.

There is one factor you forgot to take into account about every generation producing a leap in technology. In developing the F-16, the F-117A and other fighters, humanity was working largely with technology it had developed and implemented itself. In Macross, they're applying an alien technology that is demonstratably not entirely understood to human designs. They're trying to boil thousands of years of development down using reverse engineering. I'd say just getting a functional Valkyrie prototype off the ground in ten years is a monumental achievement. After that it only makes sense that valktyrie technology would improve as humanity gained a complete understanding of each new technology.

Well, this timeline and it's mecha are based largely upon the reasonable assumption that unlike the cold war era, the Zentradi are not developing new fighter or mecha designs, so the need for radical innovation was not as desperate. It's pretty much stated outright that the Zentradi's weapons and mecha are built by automated factories, and they have very limited capabilites to repair or design new mecha. As to getting sick of recycling old designs, there are two fighters in the Macross II timeline that could account for that willingness to experiment with new designs. The first would be the VF-4 Lightning III, which can hardly be called a conventional design when compared against it's predecessor, the VF-1 Valkyrie. The other would have been introduced near the end of Macross II, that being the prototype for the VF-1MS Metal Siren, which is definately a radical design innovation of similar significance to the Project Super Nova valkyries. Still, the development of radical new designs in fighters is something that comes along only once in a great while, nowadays. Speaking from an engineering standpoint, I can say that if a design happens to work and work well, then there isn't really a reason to radically reinvent it until you've run it to the absolute limit of what it can handle. For the UN, making the leap from ordinary jet fighters to variable fighters was one such major change made by sheer necessity. The VF-1 Valkyrie worked extremely well all told, and so there wouldn't really be a need to do something radical right off the bat. Enhancement to the existing, proven design would've been the prudent maneuver for them to make, and definately the most cost effective too. You can bet that once the war was over, the bloated, runaway military budget the Spacy had was cut after the threat was no longer in their faces.