bishopcruz

Just a quick note, Mary Sues, while have been given a name as a result of fan fiction are in no way shape or form limited to that format. They existed long before, and shall exist long after, I remember reading years back about the purported first Mary Sue, I think it was a novel wherin a cute little six year old girl helped a village, could do no wrong, was loved by all, and eventually dies of a disease, to be mourned forevermore by those she left behind. It was original work, yet the character had most of the trappings of the Mary Sue trope. Mary Sue's exist in both original works and fanfiction, no genre is immune from them. Having an original work however tends to let the author get away with more before a character is considered as such. Weslely Crusher is probably the most famous occurance of the 'Canon Sue', but even he got outdone in later years. Both Ranka and Sheryl, and hell even Alto have a good bit of Mary Sue in them, probably more than most previous mains in a Macross (well Mylene likely comes close.) Ranka has it the worst, though Sheryl would likely look more Sue-ish without her foil around. Does it matter? Only as much as you let it I suppose. Once the realization hits me, it's hard for me to shake. It doesn't go so far in Frontier as to make me hate the show by any stretch, I mean Ranka is by no means Alice, (Resident Evil movies, seriously, watch those and tell me she ISN'T a Mary Sue.) but certain things that happened in the show required me to suspend disbelief more than I would have liked. But it's Macross, and if I can learn to live with Guitar's that fly planes, I'll deal. Yeah, bit of a digression, but moving on... It's one of the reasons that Gubaba and I have been trying so hard to verify the interviews and the like, because once the information came into question, then all of the arguments about who crafted the final few episodes becomes moot. The story progressed as the story progressed, and it is greatly flawed, yet I very much enjoyed it. I think delving into the why of things can often be interesting, but often the why of the whole thing is simpler than people think. But essentially what a lot of it comes down to is the shipping war, it's a shame that Gubaba had Sheryl ruined for him by some dickish fanboys, but I suppose that that par the course for shipping. At least neither girl had to die for the ship. I think the bulk of complaints though, shipping included, can probably come down to the following: The storyline was a little too ambitious for the number of episodes, the writers often times didn't sweat the details, and there were stretches of episodes that could have been paced better. The loose threads left over at the series finale are byproducts of the above.

But that's what fans do, we analyze an delve into things, sometimes obsessively, trying to find out as much as we can about the universe, and how things work. Macross is no expection, I mean look at the number of books and magazines devoted to detailing nearly every aspect of the world. Now whether or not it can stand up to the scrutiny, and sometimes it can, other times it can't. Sometimes, as with Mac7, it doens't even TRY. But fans always want to know and see more, we're curious about what happened between episodes, we want to know the hows, the whys. And trust me, compared to some online fandom's we're pretty damn tame, look at some of the Buffy boards while it was airing, or Heroes, or BSG. Not exactly sure what you were trying to say. I know that the show would have to be on a tight schedule, by its very nature, Anime air dates are damn unforgiving. What I was wondering was how far ahead they have to be in production, animation has a MUCH harsher lead time than live action does. also what is 'one cour or less'? I'm sure its a typo, but I cannot figure it out.

Waiting for rips, god I hope its soon. Extra 2 1/2 minutes? Interesting.

When was the change made in Geass? I also don't think MacF was heavily delayed. Now if we were to take let's say a 3-4 month lead time in episode production, or hell even a 2 month lead time, there could have been changes made for the last series of episodes, maybe Sheryl WAS going to die, maybe something else. Fan reaction COULD have affected those, MAYBE. but if we take a two month lead time from Star Date we get Ep. 13, if we wait till ep 7 we get to Ep 15, neither of which are very Sheryl centric. And that's assuming a pretty short turnaround for these episodes. As for the OP, she isn't just some character in the OP, she's the second character we see, is ALWAYS featured in the triangle-ish images, and is focused on more than even Ranka. I find it hard to believe that when the regular version of episode 1 aired, they were planning to ditch her for a while 6 episodes later, and then have her make intermittent appearances. That would work if it was the originally planned triangle, but that concept was clearly gone by the time Deculture aired. I suppose all we are currently arguing is probability, I think everyone admits that there was a shift later on in the series, but what we really know nothing of is how or WHY the shift happened. It could have been how the story evolved among the staff, it could have been them trying to wrap up too big a story in too little time, it could have been any number of things. But the question is still more when it happened than anything else.

@Gubaba That's pretty much it. Fact is, at least as far as production was concerned, Sheryl was always in the LT, you look at the original opening, you look at the fact that pretty much every major character in the OP was a major player, and Sheryl 'bit' role hypothesis doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If the show had been what Kawamori originally intended in the early planning stages, then we have an argument, verifiable interviews have stated as much IIRC. However as Gubaba said, things changed, by the time the series came to air, it was a different beast, the LT was no longer AlBreRa but SheAlRa or what have you. In fact at no point in the early episodes does Sheryl seem like a side character, especially in regard to the LT. By episode 7, she's cemented into it. Lead times being what they are, unless there was a MASSIVE outpouring of love by the fans during the Deculture preview, it would have been impossible to implement the type of changes that people are talking about in the time they had. It just couldn't be done. It had to have happened early in the planning stages, perhaps the staff realized Sheryl was more interesting as a main than as a recurring, perhaps they thought that 2 girls on 1 guy LT was more marketable to their fanbase, maybe it was a mix of the above. The latest it could have happened would have just post Deculture. What is becoming increasingly clear however though, is that the impression of how the series progressed that many in the communities have seems kinda, I dunno, unrealistic. Unless the lead time for an individual episode of anime is less than that of a live action show here in the US, many of these accusations simple cannot work. It took me a while to track down that article as it wasn't posted on the website, and I'm currently waiting for scans/pics from a forum-member who grabbed it in Japan. From what I was told, the interview in the Famitsu is NOT like the one that was posted, though I am waiting on more details. That one though, is really just the last in a string of what can really only amount to disinformation that has spread about Ohnogi's involvement. Now again, if I am wrong, and anyone can show me verifiable proof that I am, well I'm human, I can make mistakes, and I'll freely admit to it. However, it's not just the famitsu article that seemed off, as has been stated previously in this thread, there is no evidence that this "other" Macross Radio show existed, the Ohnogi "novels/short stories" have yet to be verified, and very little adds up. Now it is possible that he is mistaking Yoshino for Ohnogi, but it's kinda hard for me to imagine as being credible, the first names, while similar sounding to someone who doesn't speak Japanese, are different enough to not be easily mistaken by anyone who is literate in the language. The last names are pretty damn different as well. If you get past the reading into the radio interviews, it becomes even less likely that the mistake could be just that. At least that's where I stand on the issue. Edit: Post made while I posted: Well, clearly changes were made from the original concept. Of that I think there is no doubt, changes were also likely made during the writing/storyboarding process, and possibly even during production. Basically, if this series were to have an LT at all, by the time it made it into production all that it really had to go on was the SxAxR one. Brela was pretty much revealed to be Ranka's brother from the get go, and that kinda kills that one off. Macross has always had a Triangle, Mech Action, and Music, and getting rid of Sheryl early on kills one of the three, and hurts another. Plus, let's be honest here, as much as I love Frontier, it's characters were pretty much designed by committee, you pretty much had one of every major anime fetish in the main cast, and it was in many ways, set up to appeal to its target audience as much as possible. It has been quite successful in that regard, but it does mean that there is a bit of trying to figure out what the fans want, even before the show airs, the current LT was likely a result of that, Sheryl and Ranka being more marketable than Alto and Brela, after all, there ahve been a lot more Minmei and Mylene dolls sold as opposed to Basara ones.

I like MKVs mainly because of the softsubs honestly, I can edit out the parts that annoy, and if I want to watch certian scenes RAW I have the option. Currently I sue PS3 Media Server to stream my video to my TV, and it works like ace.

Sweet mother of Christ man. I've seen some long pro-character rants, but wow, just wow. I won't touch on all of this post, just the general gist of Ranka not being a Mary Sue, and the idea that Sheryl is. I tend to find that a little flawed. I also take issue with your contention that you can't be a Mary Sue if you are the main character of a story. That's completely untrue. Let's go with the Wikipedia definition here: Ranka, it could be argued was pretty much this from the get go, fits this bill. I was kinda curious so I ran her through the Mary Sue litmus test, imperfect I know, it goes easier on film and anime characters, but I thought it could be fun. She scored a 53, well into the "Kill it dead." territory. BTW, Sheryl doesn't escape unscathed, as she does have some definite tendencies with her score of 29, but some things that might have really stood out as Sueisms fall to the wayside in the face of Ranka. And of course none of them are as bad as the all time worst sue in a commercial product, Alice from the Resident Evil movies. She got a 125. But I digress. Ranka was clearly the intended belle of the ball throughout most of the series, and her characterization suffered for it. From episode one she was set up as the bubbly energetic, sweet, and earnest moe ideal, and while she was clearly not as bad as some moe characters, she definitely suffered as a result. Then we have the random contrivances: 1. Her hair: She, and she alone has hair that moves with her emotions, and not only that, it moves like a dog's ears. She has slight fangs, again, pretty unique, the writers even had to retcon these in as genetic heritage even though they had never been seen or hinted at in Macross canon before. 2. Everyone loves Ranka: Everyone, period. I mean this. Until her little run off to the other side of the war, she was met with universal adoration. Her rival in romance loves her, her brother's friends love her, random people on the street love her, she's just that MOE. 3. She becomes a world class talent more or less overnight. Her role-model is moved by how good she is, random passers-by stop in awe, nearby musicians decide to back up her vocals, and she - never having been shown to have even taken singing lessons, becomes a THE hot thing in the galaxy in a few weeks. She was apparently a great actress as well, despite never having acted a day in her life before. This is also actually a first for a Macross Idol, Minmay had been taking acting and singing lessons for quite some time, Sheryl likely had too (at least singing, and had been popular for a while), Basara had been playing since he was a kid, but Ranka showed that practice was for chumps. 4. Special powers, communing with beasts, last great hope for peace. She is special, specifically because of her unique birth. She can thus commune with the Vajra, and make the world a better place. 5. Constantly being saved by Hot Guys. Marty Stu's are often saving hot girls, Mary Sues have a bit of variance in that they can either a) do all the ass kicking or b) have all the ass-kicking done FOR them. Ranka is clearly the latter. Every dude on Frontier wants to protect her, and kill tons of bugs, less for duty, and more just because she is. Some of this stuff is universal for major characters, and anime often can exacerbate someone's Mary Sue-ness. But Ranka has it worse than anyone else, and she does have all the signs of being the author's pet. I'll address some of the other points later on. I will however address your main argument that Ranka a character who had been evolving perfectly well was sidelined and trashed by the villainous Ohnogi. Well, there are two problems with that. Ok, one thing though is I think it's time that we consider moving away from the idea that Ohnogi was this mastermind, for good or ill, that changed the course of the series post episode 18. While I do contend, and there is ample evidence that Ranka was the original focus of the LT (Originally AltoxRankaXBrela) that changed before the series entered production. I think there are definite hints that SOMETHING changed Kawamori's mind, but as to what that was, it's still unclear. At this point it is looking less and less like it was Ohnogi. Ohnogi was first mentioned in relation of MacF and this fandom in a Famitsu interview that supposedly broke down each episode and kawamori's feelings on it. I'm waiting on good pics/scans of that interview, but as I wait for them, the person who has said Famitsu has told me that the interview in that issue 1035, does not appear to be the same one that made the rounds on the net. This appears to be backed up by stuff I have found on the web. Also, as has been stated in this thread before, Ohnogi is mentioned NOWHERE, in the credits, official websites, unofficial websites, for having done anything other than episode 10. Also, the timing seems odd too. Ohnogi should have been too busy making Mnemosyne to have TIME to do the last 6 episodes of Frontier. I'm still trying to find out the average lead time for an animated episode from script to finished work, but I know in the US, it can close in on a year. With anime I know that the lead time is less, but even if it was say, a quarter of what it is here, say 3 months, I don't know how much of an effect a sudden rise in Sheryl's popularity would have. In other words, if she really WAS suppose to have left in episode 7 or so, she probably would have. Fan reaction to Star Date was great, but there is NO WAY it could have influenced an episode that came along just a few weeks later. It MIGHT have influenced say 18+ but even that might be pushing it. It's far more likely that the series we saw was planned well before any of it was shown. In fact the lack of any way to gain lead time during a series' production pretty much makes that a necessity. This of course brings up some interesting questions. Why was there a change in focus towards the end? Many use Ohnogi as the source and make Kawamori out as this either savior or villain of the show. The evidence doesn't support that though. If it was anyone it is far more likely that Hiroyuki Yoshino would be the man behind it, as he was the only credited person on the screenplays for the entire show. Now if anyone can give me evidence that Ohnogi really ACTUALLY did everything, or hell, ANYTHING he is credited/accused of in relation to this series, I'll rethink an change my position. I'm just thinking more and more, that we're going on bad information here. Moving on from that. You make a lot of assumptions about how the plot WOULD have gone, with surprisingly little evidence, you have pretty much bought the idea that Sheryl came and her character was overpowering and shoved Ranka off to the sidelines due to one guy just not liking her. What I find much more likely is the idea that I beleive acutally has been in verifiable interviews which was that Ranka was a hard character to write effectively. The moe archetype has very few angles of development available to it, and that was a problem. The writers had effectively written the Ranka arc into a corner by episode 17. I again, admit the anime itself shows several inconsistencies in tone, characterization and plotting. I still have the impression that early on she was supposed to have been the primary love interest, but considering that Kawamori likes his open endings (heavily documented), I doubt that Sheryl would have been doing nothing the whole series either. In either case there were failures aplenty in the scripting of this series, the LT is just one of them. But even if you think that this is the work of someone in the staff other than Kawamori strong-arming their favorite character in, all evidence points to it NOT being Ohnogi, as he likely wasn't even involved.

Dunno if this one has been posted or not. But it was smokin' Also where is that Mikimoto art from a couple pages back from, I don't remember seeing it in Ace.

I think one of the biggest missed opportunities in Frontier was that there were no returning cast members, even any real relations of note (ok, Mao, but was anyone itching to hear her story?). It could have been cool to see if any of the Jenius girls still had a music career, (I figure Mylene would have long ago gone solo as Basara fly's the Galaxy like Cain in Kung-Fu). Mac 7 did a great job in showing that Fire Bomber won't the only cats around MacF really didn't.

I was kinda psyched that there were so many Mac7 albums as I really got into the series' tunes. Then I found out that half of them were done by the voice actors and not the singers. Blech. It's just not the same. As for the DYRL... I are very sad. On the bright side ACOUSTIC FIRE 2009 in May is gonna be a Mylene tribute, so that'll be a DVD to grab. I LOVE Kajiura's voice a lot, even though it doesn't always seem to fit Mylene. Also who did the singing for Emilia?

2 seeds and 3499 peers makes for quick download of the first half, and hell for the rest.

Well, I understand the rationale behind the whole modification thing, I was still wondering about where that was stated in the first place. And hey, those bunnies wanted some of that Zentran action after "The Fleet of the Strongest Women". But in both DYRL and M7 we do never see his arms, just those weird tentacle thingies. He also looks like that in Macross: The First, which makes me wonder if they are going to miclone him in that one. So yeah, anyone know where it was mentioned? And one new thing I saw on wiki: for Frontier ending Which is kinda what I thought, never imagined that the death would stick, but has anyone read these novels where it states the above?

I'd actually have to do another editing pass in order to take them out. The files aren't much different than what has shown up in the rar linked in this thread. I'm just giving everything a once over, and that'll be that. They'll be done soon, outside of the Omake, I have everything except for Encore 2 done. I'll probably have them out by week's end. If you are in a hurry to see the eps, basically grab the SSA's, grab AegisSub, and push the timings back until the first line of the opening song is at 0:00:15:20 or so. They won't be perfect, but they are watchable. Only a few problems here and there with font size and spacing. What I'll likely do is release 33-49 + Encore + Dynamite + Movie in *.ass as a pack. Also, I'd love to put the *.mkvs themselves up, but honestly where I'm at SUCKS for seeding.

Didn't see this anywhere, but it could be one to get: From ANN Not sure when it's coming out but it might help settle the who was responsible for what story threads thing.

Does anyone know if there is a CD which has the version of DYRL from the M7 ep "Fleet of Strongest Women"? It's a pretty cool version with a nice arrangement, but it's different from the one on Mylene Jenius sings Lynn Minmay.

The hell you say! Good sir we are about to have words. After in the Dark is filled with emotion, and if you say that Information High has no soul I might have to inquire about the status of yours. Heck, the only ones I find a bit lacking are "wanna be an angel" and well, um, yeah. Do you just not enjoy, techno or acid jazz?

Maybe he has a genetic deficiency that only a certain part of his DOESN'T become macloned? It would explain a whole lot.

That would be the easy way out. You know me, I get obsessed with doing these things. Found a PsyCORPS script, untimed, did it all last night, and kinda wanted to cry, but I did it, with timing for both Aioboeteimasuka and Tostugeki Love Heart (first verse only). Kinda proud of this one, the script could be a pain, a bit rife with errors, and kinda dry. Hopefully fixed that.

Ok, almost done, having spent time on this that I clearly should not have. Anyways, I noticed in that RAR that the subs for "Fleet of Strongest Women" is not there. Does ANYONE have this sub? It's the last thing that I'm missing in getting this whole shebang done. It'd really suck to have to do it by hand, and honestly, I'm not sure I could w/o a script at this point.

Isn't it supposed to be Navy? I always figured Spacy=Navy. Anyhoo, done with 33-49, though there are still some errors, getting on to Dynamite 7 now. This'll be the longest one, mainly because eps 1-2 are in .js format.

Glad you liked it, I really did like the series, despite itself. But I just have to ask: Characters not clones? I dunno, I think Daryl Surat said it best when he said that a lot of them seemed like they were created by committee to fill a specific quota. I mean say what you will about the likes of Basara, he might have been an annoying douche, but he was an annoying douche with charisma. The kids especially felt like the generic high school characters that oyu could find in just about every romance series/dating sim in existance. And poor Klan, one of the best characters in the show, saddled with the most absurd plot contrivance in Macross history. And I guess no one fit your above decription, we just had a depressed whining spiteful 17 year old mecha pilot who was in love with the two women in the world who happened to be able to communicate with an alien insectoid race via their songs. Not that far off. Maybe it's the same genetic defect that turns her into Loli-bait?

I have read that Exsedol underwent some genetic modifications or some crap after SDFM, which explains how he looks in 7. Where is that mentioned? I've gone through 7 itself and don't remember it ever being talked about. Also, does Movie/7 Exsedol have arms? He also seems freakishly tall, but I guess that might just be the dreaded Macross-on-a-budget-can't-draw-to-scale-syndrome.

I've asked this before, and it's kinda hard to say. I appreciate that THORA doesn't have a crap ton of graphical effects and crazy fonts littering the screen, and they are the only ones who have done the Blu-Ray rips, so they have a pretty decent advantage there. Some say they are the best, but I know their scripts are taken from someone else, and they do have errors in 'em. Lunar's subs are also pretty good, though their video is off of HDTV, so it isn't as nice as the Blu-Ray rips, and it has way too much happening during songs. I mean you have dialogue at the bottom, kanji/kana on the right border, roomaji in the top left, and the lyric translations just below. However they are far from the only group to do this, and a lot of people like it, so who knows. I feel like editing their subs to get rid of the roomaji and kana stuff though. The only ones I've seen that I would say stay the hell away from are the Shinsen ones, errors galore, and REALLY intrusive graphics.

As soon as I'm done with em, I'll try to toss 'em up then. Pretty easy work, but don't expect anything too fancy. I know the end credits are a bit messed up, but other than that it seems cool. Also, these are for the final 17 eps, which you can find as the [TV-JAPAN] torrent. It's not quite as nice as the VIP rips (640x480 instead of 720x480) but it's hard to tell the diff. Just be prepared for a slow ass DL, seriously, it can go from over 100k to about 2.5 in a matter of minutes, with no real rhyme or reason. I might also release em with the name corrections I've done on the first 24 episodes (I guess I can do the other 8 as well), but this will likely be after finals and stuff, give it a week at least.

Seems pretty easy, I'm using Aegisub, and all I pretty much have to do is sync it to the video, usually by popping the timing back about 1-30 sec. That and change the Default from 20 pt. Arial to 30 pt Arial. The positioning is a little different for some of the songs, but for what amounts to a few minutes work it ain't bad. I might see if there's a place I can toss up the subs now timed and set up for the [TV-Japan] Raws. I've also been going through the VIP subs and changing all the names to the correct Macross verions, mainly for personal benefit, up to about ep 24. I haven't seen any really bad Japlish, so props to PsyKORPS for doing these. Might I also add that no fancy fonts or Karaoke subs makes me GIDDY? I think I shall. Anyhoo, fourth time seems to be the charm with this one, still parts of it I find annoying as all hell, (the guitar flightsticks are exceptionally absurd) but there are parts the series does really well. Some other parts it doesn't. At least the combat scenes are improving past the halfway point, early on it was AWFUL.