Vic Mancini

Ahh, the infamous "competition bars". Personally, I think everyone mis-interprets them:

It's not a grading/ranking. It's merely "amount of testing done in this category". Based on the YF-22 vs YF-23, and X-32 vs X-35. Planes aren't graded A-B-C-D or "100, 90, 80 etc. They are simply tested in many ways in many categories. There's many specific tests to do, and they either pass or fail---you have to complete X number of prescribed tests, then it's over.

I mean look---why would the bars move AT ALL if it was a grading system? If the second line simply measured "high alpha performance at Mach .8"--it should get the grade it does, and be done with with. But it keeps moving up--because they keep testing it under more and more conditions. The lines (all of them) keep moving up, because each plane keeps getting closer and closer to having all the required tests completed. When the bar is full, they will have finished that portion/category of the testing program as the UN Spacy requires for new planes.

That scene isn't showing us the plane's relative capabilities, it's showing us that the competition is coming to an end, and that both planes are nearing the end of the testing. It's showing us that one plane may be be closer to finishing than another, or that the testing is going unevenly--which REALLY makes sense. The YF-21 has an early lead due to the YF-19 crash, and its progress is steady. The YF-19 starts out behind, but then leaps ahead---but only in certain categories. You can bet that Guld does everything by the book and never "skips ahead" but you can bet Isamu would ignore missiles for a week and just explore high-speed flight.

Overall, the entire point of that scene is to show the passage of time as indicated by "testing to be completed" bars filling up--it's not a contest for CAPABILITY but a contest of getting done first. That is often the end-all-be-all of testing---being first and getting all the testing done. Doesn't matter if you were twice as good, if you took longer or didn't get that part of the test program done by the deadline. (And that IS how the JSF program was graded---being able to go 500mph faster than required isn't considered any better than going 10mph faster than required---you either did or did not meet the requirement, and proved it in testing by the deadline)

The anime isn't being aimed at aviation experts, it's for a much more general and less-knowledgeable audience. IMO, the bars on the graph are arbitrary in their individual meaning and the scene is a simply a quick graphic illustration to clearly indicate to the audience that the YF-19 team is winning in various [arbitrary] categories.

Nobody who is unfamiliar with the idiosyncrasies of the JSF program would interpret those bars as a "testing to be completed" indication. Sorry, I don't buy that that is the message the director is sending us in that scene.

I really think you're projecting what you want the scene to be about if you think the director is trying to communicate to us that Isamu is simply showing off and that the YF-19 is completing their testing faster without recording better results.

True,

He has proven that the equipment he flies is irrelevant to his skills.

Max could pilot any Valk he wants, and Chuck Norris would still triumph victoriously armed with nothing but a slingshot and a marble.

I think... i may be wrong, but the limiters of the 19 are a figment of our imagination, this valk was born extreme and wasn't catering for a pilot that needed one (a limiter).

Well, correct me if I'm wrong but don't a lot of conventional modern day aircraft have limiters on them? Surely the F-22 Raptor could pull more than a 9-G turn at high velocity if it was unrestricted, but doing so would black out the pilot and kill him so the internal computer probably limits him from making any kind of extreme maneuver that would be detrimental to a pilot with soft squishy organs. David Hingten, comfirm?

I don't think limiters are all that magical, to be honest...and there's no reason to think that the YF-21 was built with engines more powerful than the 19 or any sturdier of an airframe since both fighters were built at the same time. Logic dictates that the 19 probably could have accellerated fast enough to melt the paint off the wings and bank hard enough to crush internal organs, but the computer most likely limits the pilot from doing so just like the 21's computer does.

Don't let the conventional appearance and technologies of the 19 fool you. As I said before, it's still as much a next generation fighter as the YF-21.

The bar graphs we saw showed that the YF-19 was getting better results, and some worse results, with ups and downs all over the scale. The YF-21 was much more evenly distributed.

As for the 21's arm breaking. It was two arms against one single arm. It would be interesting to see how the 19 would hold up one arm against two.

Actually it was two arms against two arms....evenly matched and the 21 buckled.

You can see both of the 21's hands on the gun pod here.

And here's the bar graph image.

I didn't see Isamu actually doing better than Guld in the competitions---he merely showed off. Flying upside down doesn't mean you or the plane is better, etc.

But flying upside down was the director's way of illustrating to us that the 19 was better. Those montages where the 19 flies upside down close to the ground, shoots targets ahead of the 21, and puts up better results on the bar graph are visual cues to let us know that the YF-19 team was gaining incredible momentum and roaring past the competition in the hands of a pilot who was capable of handling the 19.

No offense.... but if all you interpreted from those scenes was that Isamu was a show-off, I think you missed the point.

I like to think both Valks have their pluses and minuses, and when the situation came, it was the YF-21 that had what it took

to take down the X-9. Conventional weapons had no way of even touching the X-9, ramming was the only way.

Who knows, i'd like to think Guld never intended killing himself, just had to try SOMETHING to knock the Ghost out

of control (worked) but at the same time, guld fizzled out. sad. Still the saddest Macross scene yet.

Isamu, with a conventional piloting method = win, but with a BDi, = lose big time.

I was always under the impression that the YF-21 was the fastest. Therefore the only one capable of keeping up with the highly maneouverable X-9.

Sorry, gotta disagree. Guld knew he was a gone'r. He even said his farewell to Isamu before he cut the limiter. He knew exactly what he was doing which makes it so sad/valiant.

Also, I don't think the BDI actually turned out to be as much of an advantage over analog controls as expected. Every competitive scene in the the anime indicated that Isamu and the 19 were taking the lead and out-dueling the 21, and Guld was using the BDI the entire time.

A YF-21 with a BDI AND the limiters turned off, then maybe it's a "big time loss" for Isamu, but I suspect the 19 has limiters of it's own. Both pilots could deactivate their limiters and dogfight each other until their guts were crushed under the weight of their own gravity....the only difference is Guld would still be able to see after his eyeballs imploded, which I guess would make him the winner even though he would die seconds later from the damage to his internal organs. : )

Cut Guld some slack, he played by the rules, Isamu, did not. LOL If it wasn't for Gulds disorder, i'd say it was evenly matched.

I don't remember seeing Guld's disorder being a factor during many of the test sequences. Maybe I have to watch PLUS again. Was there an actual visual element in the anime that suggested Guld's piloting ability was impared , (like his muscles clenching up in flight)? Or is it speculation on your part.

I agree. The Yf-21 looked to me to be the superior plane. If Guld wasn't a head case I think the YF-21 clearly outclassed the YF-19. Even when Guld lost it and had to be rescued by isamu he could have taken control of the physical controls.

The 21 was more ground breaking in a technological sense, but that doesn't mean it performed better. I got the impression from the anime that the 19 outperformed the 21 once it was in the hands of a pilot who could properly control it's power and maneuverability. Every montage showed the 19 flying faster, taking the lead, destroying targets sooner, and recording better test results than the 21. It even broke the arm right off the 21 in the "arm wrestling match" which proved it was stronger and more durable. Even if Isamu is a wild card, and Guld was cautious/conservative, he could not have pulled ahead of Guld in the competition by piloting a "clearly outclassed" aircraft.

The 19 may not have had morphing wings, and BDI/BDS, but it was still a top of the line next gen fighter, and it seemed to me that the anime was trying to convey to the audience that it edged out the 21 in head to head competition.

How can you guys have Isamu ranking higher than Isamu? I know Isamu can make dynobird clouds with his YF-19, but Guld CAUGHT UP WITH A Ghost fighter with his YF-21 and rammed it ala what the Russians used to do againsts the Germans back in WW2. It's not like Isamu even scored hits with his fighter's bullets/missiles during their aerial encounter.

Isamu and Guld are tied skill wise.

I think the logic behind Isamu being better than Guld comes from the fact that he was clearly starting to pull away as the front runner in the Super Nova project before it was canceled. Granted, they were flying different aircraft. Maybe the YF-19 was superior to the 21 in the hands of equally skilled pilots, who knows? All we can do is speculate, but he was pulling ahead.

We can only speculate as to what would've happened if Isamu stayed to fight the X-9 and Guld left to find Myung, too. Maybe Isamu would've defeated the ghost without needing to resort to a kamikaze act? Doubtful maybe, but possible.

I also think this poll would've been more interesting if the question was:

OTHER THAN MAX, who is the best pilot in the Macross Universe?

Max- best, obviously.

Isamu- favorite, and arguably second best.

i never said i dont appreciate it, i just dont like it. The design is brilliant...its just not the kind of transforming Macross valk that i like.

its very complex and shows kawamori's genius, but i just dont like it.

Actually you said it was one of the worst designs, not that it was one of your least favorites.

That's cool if it's not your cup of tea, but when someone says it's "one of the worst designs in the macross universe", I simply have to come to it's rescue. Thanks for clearing up what you really meant, though.

IMO, that is one of the worst designs in macross.

I couldn't disagree more. I think the SV is arguably the most interesting, innovative, and sophisticated Valk (in a design sense), in the entire Macross universe. I'm still not a fan of Nora's paint scheme, or the SV's booster/FAST packs, but the design of the 51 is simply brilliant.

How anyone can fail to appreciate it, baffles me.

While we're nitpicking, the canopy should be yellow too.

I know I've seen clear yellow plastic on toys before, it can't be that difficult to manufacture.

I got the impression that the Wave 1/100 YF-21 was, in fact, a variable model. At least, the pictures on the web page that Reactive linked to show it in battroid and fighter modes.

And that's exactly why I made my reply to Reactive because I knew that the page he linked to would confuse someone.

I'm pretty sure that the fighter mode you are seeing on that page is a 1/72 Hasegawa model, which is another non-variable rendition of the YF-21. That page is very misleading for English speaking viewers. Look at the headline at the top of the page:

ＷＡＶＥ　1/100　マクロス　プラス　ＹＦ-21（バトロイドモード）　

&

ハセガワ　1/72　マクロス　プラス　YF-21（ファイターモード）　

The headline is referring to a 1/100 scale and a 1/72 scale.

The Wave is the 1/100 scale and the 1/72 version looks to me like a Hasegawa model.

Anyone who is familiar with the Wave please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

don't tell me i am the only one that finds that hard to understand....

The above poster named "Reactive" wrote:

I believe this is wave's version.

Both are are extremely impressive models. In terms of pure appearance I think I prefer d-stance's but it is very close and both have their good points.

I was expressing the unfair nature of the comparison of a non-variable, (aka non-transformable), model to a variable model by making reference to the popular idiom "comparing apples to oranges", which is used to indicate that two items or groups of items have not been validly compared. The idiom evokes the apparent differences between items which are popularly thought to be incomparable or incommensurable, such as apples and oranges.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges

My point was that comparing the Wave YF-21 to the Dstance YF-21 is like comparing a Revoltech VF-1 to a Yamato VF-1, which are designed for completely different functions. It's apples and oranges. I was also making the simultaneous suggestion that Revoltech will probably end up making a YF-21 some day, (due to the 19 and 21's iconic status in the Macross universe), and when they do, Reactive will have something to legitimately compare the Wave-21 to.

How's that? Clear as mud now?

Wave's is beautiful, but it's a non-variable Battroid model, is it not? The fighter pics on that page are the 1/72 Hasegawa.

Compare the Wave YF-21 to Revoltech's YF-21 (when they eventually make one), not the D-stance which is variable.

Compare apples to other apples, and leave the oranges out of it.

I'd pick a VF-22 over the YF-21 anyday.

Not me. The YF-21 just isn't the same if it isn't an opaque canopy mind-controlled valk.

Max, Miria, and Gamlin can kiss my behind. Guld FTW.

QTVR Battoroid Mode is ready! Hope you all like it.

Check it out: Click the "Sky" or "My D.D" to see them

That's really neat. I'd like to see the same treatment for all of Yamato's valks.

If they were smart they'd be paying you for these.

Bump for ruskiiVFaussie.

I really like this design. A stealth would have too much grey'y blue paint compared to this almost all black 19.

I humbly disagree.

I like Wicked Ace's custom YF-19 Vampire/stealth scheme 10x better than the 25th anni.

On the droopy wings: While watching Zero the otehr night, i noticed that the wings DO seem to droop slightly under the weight of the missles etc. Maybe I'm seeing things, but i noticed it in the 3rd (I think) episode when Nora and DD attack the carrier.

Did i type this already? Writing this out seems very familiar....LOrdy I'm tired...

In real life, (if there was a real life version of the 51), I could see the wings drooping a little bit under all that weight, but only on a runway, not in flight with air passing over the wings.

On a runway the weight of an airplane is on the landing gear while the wings are being pulled down by gravity.

In flight the weight of an airplane is supported by the wings. The wings are there to lift the plane. They wouldn't droop, unless the airplane was stalling. If anything they would droop upwards.

I'm just dissapointed that Yamato haven't yet followed up the first cad drawings published in a magazine with more.

I know.

I'm dying to see a side view of this baby in F mode. How long do we need to wait here? Sheesh.

No, it dosen't open.

That's crappy.

So much for the brilliantly designed F-mode VTOL feature.

I'm still waiting to see pictures of the breaks.

No kidding. Many votes, no pictures.

Waddup with that?

I have a question about this 51, that I'm not sure whether it's been answered or not.

Can the heat shield lift in F mode like this?

Unfortunately it looks like it can't from the pictures I've seen.

Hi all, this is me again....

I'm in love.

This may be my new all-time favorite Valk.

I can't wait to get one.

Unbelievable.

Fighter, Gerwalk, Battroid...they all look flawless. (except those goofy intakes, but oh well.)

Also, the wings would probably droop in real life with all that weight on them too. Remember, there is a difference between sitting on a runway and flying through the sky with air passing over/under the wings at the speed of sound. ...Not that I wouldn't prefer perfectly rigid wings, I'm just saying....it's probably realistic in a way.

PS/Edit: I can't wait for a Dobber scheme!