Vic Mancini

Perhaps the problem is the choice of terms - but it is easy to see parallels to prophets in the desert and wandering brahmins to Basara. There is also a pretty big divide between what I think the writers intended for this character and how some audiences are taking it. For better or for worse Basara is a vehicle for a spiritual philosophy that turns out to be true within the universe he inhabits. Part of it too is that Eastern mysticism (at least in some forms, I hate to generalize but it may be useful here) is a bit different than western imysticism in some ways, and they tend to avoid direct explanations - preferring to introduce people to a concept in action rather than philosophical explanations. So as a "prophet" with some pretty obvious allusions in the anime - whether his time in the desert or trying to make a mountain "uproot itself and be planted in the sea" Basara WILL be driven by his "deity" (so to speak) to behave in ways that other people not only will have problems understanding but may be threatened by. Heh, prophets are also notorious for being kind of forceful about their ideas, particularly in the western tradition. At least Basara doesn't seem to want to present destruction as the only alternative to listening to his singing (although some people might prefer it!).

And don't forget perhaps the most obvious reference/parallel of all: Basara died and was resurrected.

It is obvious to me that the Mac 7 writers meant to create a vague air of spiritual/spiritial divinity around Basara's character and his abilities. There are far too many spiritual/religious allusions, references, and metaphors to ignore.

Heh, I had a pretty good rant on the page just before, but as always I was the last one so it disappeared. Oh well.

Despite not replying to it, I promise it did not go unread by me.

You've made very insightful points in all your posts regarding Basara.

If said activists are shoving their signs into my car that is considered assault and / or tresspass and both are just as illegal as rape. I didn't invite their slogans or wish to hear/read them so shoving them in my face against my will no matter how dedicated they are or noble they believe is their cause, is still an attack on me and mine.

The glaring difference with your example being that you'd be minding your own business which is very different from what the Protodeviln were doing.

Are you telling me that if you invaded my home in the middle of the night, turned my family into mindless vegetables, and started attacking me with weapons, and all I did was dodge your attacks and sing songs for you until chose to leave, that I'd be the selfish and inconsiderate one? I'd be guilty of assault/tresspass and equal to a rapist? Are you joking?

If you attacked me and got off with nothing but a song being sung at you, you'd be lucky. That's a microscopic toll to pay for your actions.

OK, now I am loosing respect for this debate when messianic delusions are beginning to be bandied about.

Mes·si·ah

1. also Mes·si·as (mĭ-sī'əs) The anticipated savior of the Jews.

2. also Messias Christianity Jesus.

3. messiah One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator.

A messiah is a liberator of slaves. The Varuata were the enslaved colonists of the Megaroad 13 and Basara was their savior. Did you miss the whole Anima Spiritia thing?

You called Basara the opitome[sic] of the starving artist notion, and that's inaccurate. He wasn't making music/art for music/art's sake. Even as a child he had bigger ambitions for his music than to make art. Music was simply Basara's vehicle for the spiritial liberation he was creating. It's evident that Basara was written and portrayed much more like a prophet/messiah in the body of a musician than he was an artist.

(I've heard "artist's" vision of music and it was nothing short of caucafanous self inflated drivel!)

Hmmm...I'm detecting an axe to grind.

Ahhh, the old "Is it art if it isn't accessible" argument... I have this argument with my brother the "fine arts" graduate all the time...

Why did you put fine arts in quotations?

If no one listens to the "music" then who is "touched" by it?

In Basara's case, nobody. That's my point.

If the singer must demand and audience to listen to their "music vision" and even force it upon them with speaker pods then exactly how does one "touch" another against their will?

Ask Basara. He succeeded each and every time he repelled a battle with his music.

Is a political activist being selfish when he/she's picketing outside of a military/government building? Are their signs "raping" your eyes?

I think you're reaching with the spin you're trying to put on Basara. I don't see anyway you can actually find his actions selfish just because he forces the Varuata to listen to his music. He repells attacks again and again, and increases the risk on his own life by not resorting to the use of lethal force. He cares about the lives of the enemy almost more than his own. If anything he's selfless on the battlefield.

Thus the method of his vision is either flawed or convoluded.

His vision was to stop wars by touching the hearts of the soldiers fighting...both the enemy and the military. It only became convoluted when people tried to force expectations on him that go hand in hand with music careers and military obedience.

Equally questionable is why did the band members stay with him with his attitude?

Because Ray and the Zentran, [i forget her name], understood Basara's vision and supported it. Ray even gave him the Valk.

Mylene was the only one who had an issue with Basara 99% of the time, and that stemmed from her wanting to be in a commercially successful rock band and she thought that was what Fire Bomber was all about. It took her the course of the series to come around and figure out what the purpose of their music was. She was free to leave the band at any time if it wasn't her thing. Just like Basara is free to leave Soundforce or take a haiatus from his band.

Sure he is. He "expects" people and the Varuata to listen to him whether they want to or not and will force the Varuata if necessary.

I'm sure if the Varuata came with peaceful music instead of guns, Basara would happily listen to their songs. But instead they came with murder and spiritia-reaving. Basara had to do what was necessary to stop the fighting. ...Forcing people to listen to music is a small price to pay for the results it achieved.

He expects the band to practice and take the music seriously. He doesn't care about those providing for him (the fans & the military) which makes the circumstances around his character rather fantastic in nature and without much thought to reality.

He may not care about satisfying the military and his fans at the expense of the purity of his vision/music, but he certainly cares about their well-being. The well-being of the Mac 7 fleet, as well as the well-being of the Varuata and the Protodeviln, are very important to Basara. It's the whole reason he flies out into the middle of every battle and tries to stop the fighting with peaceful methods.

I've seen plenty of kids do exactly that, so I stand by my statement.

???

Adults make the same choice every day. I don't expect you to do things you don't want to do just like I expect you to allow me to make my own choices. Hypothetically, if I'm your boss and I require you to perform certain actions that you don't believe in, it's certainly your choice to leave and do your own thing. That's so far from being childish I don't even know where to begin.

Basara is not obligated to do anything he doesn't want to. It's his music.

He was the opitome of the starving artist notion, except he was given an advanced variable fighter plane...

He was more of a prophet archetype than a starving artist. He had a clear vision of the way things should be, and he was unwilling to compromise his vision just because other people put expectations on him that he didn't ask for.

Like I said in my last post, everyone interprets things differently, so you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I just never saw Basara as being arrogant or selfish. I don't even think Mylene did by the end of the series.

If you sing a song and nobody listens is it still music?

Yes, it is still definitely music, but in Basara's case no...you're right...it's not the same. Basara's whole purpose of making music is to touch the hearts of others, so people have to be listening. But in Basara's case, it doesn't matter if it's one person or 30,000. It's a bigger victory for him to touch the heart of Gigil, or Sivil, or even that biker chick, than to preach to the converted masses.

Also, I was talking more about the press junkets and arranged studio collaborations. That stuff definitely does not go hand in hand with music. That goes hand in hand with a music career which is not really what Basara was about. He was about the purity of music as a means of touching the soul. And if you're heart isn't into when you sing in that moment, it's definitely not music. Basara's heart being into it is a bigger priority than keeping a commitment to fans, and there's nothing wrong with that. He's an artist doing things on his own terms and it may be career suicide, but it's still his choice of when/where to sing, not the fans'.

Actually he did bust Mylene's chops on several occasions, just not over the same issues as she. She often ragged on him for being selfish, irresponsible, and rude (kind of ironic coming from her).

I remember him teasing her a lot, but that's different from what she was doing. She ragged on him for being late, no-showing to interviews, and not being more interested in making Fire Bomber a commercial success. It's been a while since I watched Mac 7, but I seem to remember Basara giving Mylene the "do whatever you want / makes no difference to me" attitude whenever she threatened to act aloofish like Basara.

And that's just my point. Basara's behavior isn't selfish unless he expects different from others. It's not like he's telling everyone to be on time, and to practice more, and to take things more seriously. I think he gives everyone the same freedom that he expects to be given in return.

Well nothing wrong except for an incredibly childish attitude. "If I don't get my way, I just won't play with you anymore..."*pout*

I don't think that's a childish attitude at all if you remove the *pout*. Basara had a clear vision of what he wanted to do. There's no reason to compromise your vision if you don't have to. If Mylene or the military have their own visions of what they want, then that's their thing, but Firebomber is Basara's vision and he wants to keep it pure.

He did display characteristics of an arrogant personality, some will justify and accept it, others will not.

I don't know...I think I still disagree. It's not like he thought he was above anyone else. It's not like he thought he was God's gift to the universe and went on bragging about how he was such a talented musician. He was just a free spirit that refused to compromise on his ideals. At least, that's how I percieved him. But everyone is entitled to their own interpretation.

Quote from Vic Mancini

"he refused to sweat the little things, or put up with anything trivial that didn't pertain to his vision"

the irony is...... if you call not carring or better yet showing complete indifference, about the citizens of macross 7 being sucked dry of spiritia ( his fans included) , or even showing up late or sometimes a no show, to his own shows - which is odd because he supposed to be 1000% committed to his music right? or even abandoning his fans and friends to go take some peyote and find his spiritia animal in the desert - then yes......he doesn't sweat the little things. Seems to me that Basara, is a good example of how the needs of the one, outweigh the needs of the many.

With that said - I do like M7 but not a big fan of Basara's quite shallow and self centered character. Just my 2 cents - got any change?

Fans have nothing to do with music. Fame and committment to fans are trivial to Basara and should not necessarily go hand in hand with music. He's on his own wave length and does things only when his heart is in it because that's the only time the music is pure. That's not selfish behavior unless you expect different from others. I don't recall Basara ever busting chops the same way Mylene always ragged on him for being flakey. [i could be wrong, though. I've only watched Mac 7 once.]

Basara's whole character is based on being uncompromising. He's an idealist who does things on his terms. If he can't be a musician or a Soundforce pilot on his terms, he chooses not be a part of it at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, actually. ...maybe I'm crazy.

the problem is that Basara never changes in the whole series/OAV/movie, he's always doing the same...

all the other character grew up in a way, and it's a bit hard (at least for me) to take that someone so arrogant and selfish is the only character who seems to be idolize in the whole series up to the point that he dies and comes back to life by people singing...talk about cheesy, hell, even the Protodevlin at the end realized what they could do and not sort to spiritia stealing, everyone in the series changed except the most annoying character?? it's nonesense

First off I just want to say that I loathed Mac 7....especially dynamite.

It's my least favorite series by far, but I have to defend Basara's characther.

The core of Basara's character is his unwaivering conviction and commitment to what he believes in. He believes he can stop wars and even literally move mountains with his music. I don't think he was arrogant so much as he was just 1000% committed to what he was trying to achieve with his songs. He refused to settle, he refused to sweat the little things, or put up with anything trivial that didn't pertain to his vision. He was brutally honest, up-front, blunt and annoying, but I still didn't find him arrogant or hate his character. Nor do I think it would've been right for his character to change.

That's my take, anyway.

You guys have probably seen this already but it seems fitting for the direction this thread is heading in.

This theme music kicks the crap out of both Robotech and Macross.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L130VcwKG7M&amp...ted&search=

edit: Another

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PT-M1ClUDCs&amp...ted&search=

I was surfing on the net and i found a really intersting info about a good looking bird so look at This!! Guys!

Cool idea for the wing hinges.

That will definitely help keep them straight in F mode.

You forgot supercheesy intro music

I'm a Macross supporter in every way except for in the music department. Robotech beats Macross hands down, IMO.

I love the Robotech intro music!

It really depends on the Valk, but in general GERWALK is my favorite mode. There are a lot of robots and fighter jets out there, but GERWALK is unique to Macross. It's the signature mode in my books.

Half GERWALK is bad ass, too.

A more life like viewing experience.

That's the whole point about live-action features and the reason why Spider-man, Superman, Batman, Transformers, etc. being made.

But my point is that things don't always translate from an animated world to a live action world.

Exhibit A

Very good.

Exhibit B

Very bad!

I can't imagine a Macross live action movie turning into anything other than a disposable compromised popcorn flick no better than Stealth or Wing Commander. "Life like" does not equal better.

Fundamentally, I think the problem is that... we don't need a live action Macross movie.

Thank you!

What would a live action movie give us that an animated movie/series couldn't? Nothing.

Who wants to see some wanker like The Rock, or Christian Bale, or Hugh Jackman portraying our favorite characters? Not me.

I actually wish more major box office movies were animated instead of live action.

Some things just don't translate.

I'd take another Macross mini-series over a live action movie any day.

Xmen Franchise (although the last wasn't great)

Spiderman

Batman

Men In Black

The First two Ninja Turtle Movies.....

X-Men sucked. Spiderman sucked. Batman sucked, [yes...even Batman Begins], The Ninja Turtles sucked.

I read all of the above comic books as a youth, and non of the movie adaptations have done the original formats justice at all. X-men, Spiderman, Batman, and TMNT all worked in their original formats a lot better than their unnecessary live action movie adaptations starring cheesy miscast hollywood actors and watered down Michael Bay-esque direction and storytelling. There is so much wrong with Hollywood, I don't even know where to begin.

There are exceptions where live action films surpassed the original format from which they were adapted, but it's so incredibly rare and usually completely frivalous. Why wreck a beautiful franshise with a crappy popcorn flick adaptation?

What's wrong with anime? Macross works in that realm.

Just say NO to useless live action movie adaptations of things that work just fine the way they are.

I hate how now a days everything requires a sequel.

But you don't hate how now a days everything requires a live action movie adaptation?

A live action Macross would probably be about as good as:

...Why anyone would want to see a live action Macross baffles me.

I've always wondered this....

If real world test aircraft like the Raptor and Black Widow were called the YF-22 and YF-23, shouldn't the Macross Plus Variable Fighters be called YVF-19 and YVF-21?

I'm not really into either of the Super Nova schemes.

A Low Vis, Stealth, or even some kind of Jungle/Urban Camo would be a lot more appealing for me personally.

I agree with others that the intakes look pretty bad. The intakes are also a problem for me on the VF-0, [perhaps the only problem on an otherwise perfect rendition], but I personally thought that Yamato handled the intakes on the YF-19 very well and I wish they would've taken the same route on the 0 and 51.

On the 0 and 51 it looks like a turbine blade is mounted on a flat wall. At least on the 19 the blade is sunken in a tad and the "wall" angles into the fan with some paint and detail.

Let's face it, the intake on the SV-51 is going to look bad no matter what you do, even if you remove the fan and paint the wall black as others have suggested, simply because of the small lip on the front of the intake. But if Yamato at least gave a bit more finish to the fan area, like they did on the 19, I think it would look a lot better.

I would have to say not the VF-1, since the VF-0 is basically the same design only improved. The way the hands and arms tuck and transition into the backpack in VF-0 fighter mode was a very big improvement over the VF-1's blocky underside. That, and the modern asthetic of the VF-0 just make the VF-1 seem more dated to me than "classic".

My personal fav is the YF-19 by a hair.

Any one of the following is a close second:

Yf-21

VF-11

SV-51

VF-0

Least favorites:

VF-1

VF-19

VF-17

VF-4

Looks like the Hasegawa has smaller tailfins than the official CGI and the Yamato is closer to it in that respect.

It also looks like the Hasegawa has a longer fuselage where the heatshield and head are, again the Yamato follows the CGI more closely.

It looks to me like that actual "problem", (if you want to call it that), with the tail fins is that they sit too vertical on the Yamato, where on the other three examples they angle out more.

The biggest thing for me is that the actual nose cone seems too small.

The cockpit also seems too small, and is situated slightly too far forward on the fuselage. But those are fairly extreme nitpicks, I guess. Compromises sometimes have to be made for the sake of transformation, and the Yamato still looks like a very good interpretation of the SV-51 overall.

I hope they make the cockpit gold, though.

A clear canopy has nothing to do with transformation.

David's CGI pictures reminded me that there was a Mac Zero official website with some good images on it.

So one more comparison shot...

A new comparison shot for anyone interested.

[attachmentid=39905]

Thank you, sir.

I'm probably going to be stoned to death for this, but I think the nose on the Yamato actually looks MORE accurate to the official line are than the hase kit.

The hase might be more accurate in actual length, but the shape of the Yamato is way better to me. The Hase looks too drooped and bulbous compared to how the SV-51’s drawn.

Speaking of that...

Does anyone have some official SV-51 line art that they could post in this thread? It would help in determining whether the Hase or Yamato version is most accurate. I still like the look of the Hase fighter mode better, but again, that may just be because I'm used to it, and I'm having trouble finding line art.

Do we know the Sv-51 is supposed to be BLACK? I've always thought Ivanov's was very dark grey. Very dark grey is a lot more common on planes that pure black.

When does something stop becoming dark grey and become pure black?

Black is just very dark grey. It's subjective.

Here is a compairison phot I made of the Yamato prototype and my Hasegawa SV-51. I tried to match the angels the best I could. I know that the Hasegawa models always have better fighter modes because it's a model, I just wanted to show a good compairison of the 2 is all.

Chris

Awe crap.

After seeing that side by side comparison, the nose of the Yamato looks too short now.

I like the length of the Hasegawa. That picture just ruined it for me a little bit.

Maybe I just need to get used to it. The 1/60 Yamato YF-19 looked funny to me at first also, but now I think it looks even better than the Hasegawa version in ways.