charles88

On 10/16/2022 at 1:44 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Cromwell would have to have some pretty solid evidence and a very compelling argument to do the things he did.  He was able to convince a significant portion of the New UN Forces to side with him and obtain the financial and materiel support to sustain his organization, remodel the Battle Astraea, purchase dozens if not hundreds of cutting edge 5th Gen unmanned Valkyries loaded for bear with fold quartz enhancements, and buy all manner of other robotic weapons like conventional Ghosts and robot soldiers.  That isn't a cheap undertaking.  If he were a crazy person chasing a paranoid delusion, he would not have been able to get the billions upon billions of dollars of money he needed to do all of that

Spoiler

In the movie already explained that Eplison Foundation the one fully funded and sponsor Crownwell by heavily modified Macross Astrea and provide Siren System and Sv-303 army. The SAME organisation that funded and backed Macross Galaxy and Roid. I mean they rich enough to fund entire colony fleet and entire Kingdom, should be no problem they funded 1 rogue organisation. Also Cromwell crazy enough to directly attack ENTIRE NUNS which include Eden, Vajra and even Earth, something that not even Roid dare to do it

Also where your proof that Lady M the one create Siren system as movie only stated Eplison the one created Siren system?

 

49 minutes ago, Keith said:

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I really liked Max's arc here. While yes, he massively overshadows the already truncated presence of Mirage in the movie telling of Delta, I honestly believe we get is "old man Max" brought in to initially fill in the loss of Ernest Johnson by bringing Exedor with him (and damn, did I cheer at Exedor's appearance), but that evolves into a fascinating sidestory of the genius Jenius as a man who's seen far more insane events in human history than anyone should. He's jaded with his skill walking in, sees his grandaughter whom he believes inheritted none of it, knocks Hayate & Bogue around a bit to boost up the recognized resident aces, then finds out that even though he hasn't missed a step, he did miss what was obvious to Arad, Mirage's genius ie seeing genius in others.

On 10/14/2022 at 11:09 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

On 10/14/2022 at 10:25 PM, charles88 said:

Speaking of anniversary, do you guys think that Kawamori should bring back Virtual Idol in next Maxross series?

Nah, it was an innovative idea in 1994... but now it's something that's been defictionalized, so it's no longer unique or compelling as a premise.

Because I want Actual fully sentient AI with actual personality and heart. Also these new sentient vitual AI also commanding entire unmanned VF army in that colony fleet. Another reason is I want Macross tackle whether or not Sentient AI has heart and soul or not. Also make Ai fell in love with main MC normally.

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It wasn't until Absolute Live!!!!!! that "Lady M" was changed from an enigmatic weirdo and (theoretically) one-woman Omniscient Council of Vagueness into some kind of Deep State figure... an oligarch who corruptly controls the New UN Government, New UN Forces, and PMCs somehow and acts as the sole arbiter of what knowledge humanity is "ready" for.  It's that hot take that retroactively inserts "Lady M" into decisions from the previous 50+ years like the New UN Government's ban on cloning, the restrictions imposed on AI technology after the Sharon Apple incident, the implant ban, and the strict controls imposed on MDE weapons.

Unfortunately, it really doesn't tally with previous material at all... so it doesn't fit at all if you've seen more of Macross than just Delta.

 

4 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

Lady M didn't exist in Frontier. Entirely a creation of Delta. I don't think they implied she was actually retroactively involved in anything and if they did it's ignorable cause it really wasn't a thing during Frontier at all yet. 

In lore wise Lady M only appear after Vajra war which means it after Macross Frontier timeline and most likely after Macross 30.

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nah, it was an innovative idea in 1994... but now it's something that's been defictionalized, so it's no longer unique or compelling as a premise.

What if those virtual idol are fully sentient AI? This one completly different from Sharon  as its creator build AI that intended to be fully santient from the start and do not use human personality as based. Because Kaamori pretty much used up alll idol type so why not reuse previous idol trope like Frontier reuse first Macross trope/

Speaking of anniversary, do you guys think that Kawamori should bring back Virtual Idol in next Maxross series?

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  Macross Galaxy's corporate government was a questionable undertaking in hindsight but it was a recognized New UN Government member state.  There is nothing inherently wrong with doing business with them, especially since said business would've had to occur BEFORE their ulterior motives became known.

While it isn't obvious in the TV version Macross Galaxy is pretty much treated as a rogue state due to its espionage activities, Black Ops on NUN planets, horrendous human rights record  as most ofcitizen there are living in very poor envoriment and huge class differences.   The Mandated Cybernetics bill which was originally not passed in Macross Galaxy's Senate got passed after political violence against the opposition such as Sheryl's parents who were assassinated. Macross Galaxy also had links to Lactence via Manfred Brando who provided Lactence with the Fold Quartz based Sound Jamming System. Manfred died fighting Aegis in VF-X2 but he left a digital copy of his consciousness who was among the talking heads of the Macross Galaxy conspiracy. Manfred Brando when he was still alive sponsored the 117th Research Fleet and was the one who brought in Grace into the conspiracy. So this shows that Macross Galaxy already have very bad reputation and more or less a rogue fleet nation even before Vajra war and Frontier movie shows that Frontier fleet military and goverment already have huge distrust toward Macross Galaxy fleet. And yet Eplison Foundation Still baked them .That makes Elison Foundation suspicious as hell.

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

. They're pretty clearly and consistently amoral, but the only thing you're accusing them of that was actually a crime is Sydney Hunt's theft of a Star Singer relic.

17 hours ago, Master Dex said:

That's all we're saying. She's not a good person just because she's in charge of the heroes. We don't actually know why she has such a stranglehold on the NUNG. We just kinda assume she means well but it's certainly not a popular idea to the masses. People don't like oligarchs secretly controlling them without explanation. 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

This is a legitimate concern... but only for one very specific type of cybernetic technology.

As noted previously, this ignores the fundamental reality that non-networked medical cybernetics can greatly improve quality of life for people needing limb replacements and the like and allow them to live full and unrestrained lives.

 

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You realize this is refuted right in the movie itself, right?

"Evil people or organizations" with the resources and desire to do something like that are going to do it regardless of whether the technology is legal or not... like the criminal Lady M did.

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not all of it... there have been a few big disasters caused by buried Protoculture weapons, but humanity has also used a lot of captured Protoculture-built tech to considerably positive effect like the factory satellites that underpin mass-manufacturing in the New UN Government and the genetic engineering technology that was used to keep Earth a habitable planet after the First Space War.

Its because thanks to law that ensure that Protoculture ruin and tech have no hidden WMD like Bird Human and Devil series and people who investigae are responsible and morally right people. Cromwell wanted remove those ban which means it allow all reseacher and organiztion reaerach on all Protoculture tech which include WMD and replicate it without supervioson at all. It took 1 bad batch people would love to use and  abuse those Protoculture WMD for their selfish gain and potentially wipe civilization or history itself. Best example is Todoh from Macross 30 found Devil series that can freaking time travel and he want to use to rewrite history on Space war 1. Just imagine what if those reriction and ban removed, it could led NUNS replicate those dangeroes WMD like time travel and could led to disater if NUNS abuse time travel tech and it took 1 bas people toscrew it everything like Todoh.

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

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That, of course, is the problem.

Lady M is an oligarch who corruptly controls much of the New UN Government and New UN Forces.  There are not exactly a ton of options for nonviolent, democratic methods to depose someone like that when they wield so much power that they can dictate government policy and break the law with apparent impunity.  Especially one whose followers are willing to rigidly enforce her diktats even at the cost of entire planets and the lives of their populations.

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Remember, Cromwell's breaking point was that Lady M's supporters in the New UN Forces decided to let his home planet burn and its defense forces get wiped out rather than authorize the use of MDE weapons in its defense.  Anywhere from tens of thousands to potentially several million people died violently and apparently needlessly for Lady M's standards.

Cromwell does some questionable things, but he largely does them with kid gloves on until the very end of the movie when he risks damage to Windermere IV in order to defeat Lady M.  Everything we hear about Lady M though, which passes without comment or the slightest indication that it's unreasonable or false from Xaos, suggests she's at least as bad and potentially quite a lot worse.  (And one member of Delta Flight hangs a lampshade on the fact.)

 

Not just that, his whole position basically boils down to disgust with Lady M's callous disregard for the lives of New UN Government citizens.  His objections to her laws are all on the basis of the potential those technologies have to save lives and prevent unnecessary loss of life.

 

1 hour ago, Master Dex said:

No need to get upset because other people have different opinions on the movie. This is a discussion forum, and we are discussing.

Well I wasn't until now but I have bought and watched it. Admittedly my thoughts are closer to Seto and Kaj. I'm typically less harsh on Delta but that's cause I am a mellow guy. Doesn't mean I don't have criticisms, I'm a bit of a story writer myself (insert Osborne meme here) and Delta absolutely earns it's criticisms.

The Sv-303 is... Alright. I was surprised it was unmanned and there was multiples actually. I thought it was going to be some ace fighter. I actually haven't been as into the design since it was revealed. I'd comment on specs but we have no power there lol.

Visually the movie was gorgeous at least. The editing could have used work but everything looked really pretty when you had time to enjoy a shot. I actually really liked the imagery of Battle Astrea in attack mode perched next to the ground, showing off the impressive scale of the New Macross Class battle carriers. Try as he might to make the still as yet unnamed class the Elysian and Gigasian belong to look good, Max definitely traded down.

And yeah I'm a huge Max fanboy so I enjoyed him being here. Exsedol too honestly. Actually I just like he stuck with Max. They give hints they have a close friendship throughout Macross 7 and I kinda feel it here. Admittedly Max tends to lose friends in his life (Kakizaki died, Hikaru vanishes, I'm not convinced he and Milia are still married) but weirdly the giant database guy became one of his closest friends almost.

The plot... It's a Delta plot alright lol. It's not the worst but it does feel like it tried a bit too hard and just led to a lot of head scratching.

I was happy before watching anything that Seto have such a good review of Labyrinth of Time though cause that's the thing I was most concerned about since Frontier is very important to me and I 100% agree that did everything I could have hoped for in a 15 minute short. It also truly felt like Frontier, and I worried it would feel like Frontier by way of Delta writing style. I don't know if the writing teams were actually different but LoT felt like the people that did Frontier came back to do this. I was happy. 

Well Exesdol seems to be a family friend to Jenius family as Mirage knew him very well. I think Max syltill married with Milia as they reconcile at end of Macross 7

Well Max almost reunite with Hikaru when Cromwell open Super Fold Gate.

Also It's okay as seems that some of threader seems want to find any reason no matter how minor to hate Delta. In fact for some reason some of threader think that Lady M is main villain and somehow Eplison and Cromwell are more moral.than even Eplison. The SAME Eplison who sponsor Macross Galaxy conspirator, sponsor Roid and they the one steal Star Singer first. And use Baby fetus as main component for Siren system Weapon.

3 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Frontier did it first is the thing, in this "revival era" of Macross. It was a great remix of the DYRL? formula, the music rocked, the characters were great. Everything was in sync with everything else.

Delta was a by the numbers copycat of Frontier, with not enough of its own attitude to stand on. And then the second movie doubled down on the formula for no reason whatsoever.

I never expect this type of comment here. It's good to know the franchise is continuing to draw in new blood, and not just us old-timers in perpetuity.

To your point, I did, in fact, end up seeing it to the end, and before that, I did, in fact, assume that it would have a bittersweet ending. That much was fairly obvious the moment it was established that her singing caused her to age. The ending doesn't at all change my opinion of the movie. I'd go so far as to say that the ending doesn't feel earned at all. Like I said, there's twelve other movies stuffed into this one, and none of them get to breathe enough that I actually care when they get to their respective conclusions.

I'll say, the subplot trying to retcon Kaname into having an unspoken love with Messer continues to irritate me to no end. That it simultaneously discards all setup between her and Arad is doubly irritating, and that it decides it suddenly wants him to be fleet commander material is triply so. The movie's idea of "good leadership" in general made me roll my eyes. Frantic micromanaging (and pointing! Lots and lots of useless pointing!) is apparently what NUNS is looking for.

Enemy Baby enjoying their singing was a neat idea (but again gets so lost amongst everything else etc. etc. etc.). Enemy Baby belting out perfectly-clear song lyrics at the age of what seemed like two was creepy as frakk.

For your information I'm also old timer as well as I'm been watching Macross for over 20 years.

Baby can sing because Eplison essentially implant her with advanced AI chip inside her head as they need organic being to produce fold wave song. That why Walkure have have to sing in battlefield in person as recorded song did not work on Vars

I'm got impression that some of old timer like you are very negative on Delta and think that japanese and new blood have sucky and poor taste as they praise Delta movie 2 and will nickpick and find any minor reason to hate Delta movie 2. Like those Old timer UC Gundam fan and Showa Ultra fan

And about spoil ending Macross Fontier movie 2 at least already spoil who villain and Sheryl at 1st movie and beginning of movie 2. Also Frontier Movie 2 follow basic storyframe from 2nd half of the Macross Frontier series while Delta Movie 2 are complete original as well

And what do you guys think of Sv-303? I bet its suck because it's Delta

8 hours ago, kajnrig said:

I managed to source a viewing, and I made it roughly halfway through before calling it quits. I might finish it, but boy, do I just not care. At all. I am so ready to move on from Delta, or at least whichever creative voices are responsible for Delta.

I had really hoped that this movie would learn from the ample criticism leveled at the show and first movie and discard all excess baggage to hone in on executing the fundamentals. But the first hour of it is just more of the same. There's like twelve movies/shows/OVAs' worth of workable ideas stuffed into this, and it focuses on absolutely none of them. I can't even get excited at the introduction of nostalgia trap Max Jenius when it's just one more of a mass of hastily-introduced plot developments.

The only positive of the film is the Yami Q-Ray music, and that's not nearly good enough to save the film.

I bet you never bother to see the ending and assume that they live happily ever after

Frontier Movie 2 done the same

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The YF-30 was not developed to surpass the YF-24 or anything like that.  It was developed as an Experimental aircraft (an "X-plane") and built to evaluate several new technologies, the most important of which was the Fold Dimensional Resonance system that was developed as a way to cross dimensional faults.  The reason it was designated as a prototype (YF) instead of an Experimental aircraft (VF-X/VX) was to exploit a loophole in the New UN Government's laws about disclosing newly developed technologies.  Classifying it as a prototype allowed SMS Uroboros to avoid having to make those disclosures to the central New UN Government and continue testing in secret for much longer than they normally would have been able to.  The YF-30's performance is actually lower than the YF-29's by a fair amount, and it's much less heavily armed as well because it was not developed as a combat aircraft

I see. I thought YF-30 performance are almost as equal as YF-29 as in Macross 30, Leon beat his former friend that piloting YF-29B which stated upgraded YF-29. Is it because Leon is better pilot or hospital friend lost his will to fight?

I don't think

On 10/3/2022 at 12:37 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

But aside from that and some incidental property damage early in the film, the film never manages to actually construct any kind of argument (cogent or otherwise) for why Xaos's defense of Lady M is "right" and Heimdall's opposition to her is "wrong".  It's actually kind of weird that they never even make a serious effort to refute Heimdall's assertions about Lady M using her influence to manipulate New UN Government policy.  There really isn't any arguing Cromwell's point about Mikumo, since it's been acknowledged in the previous film that Lady M broke interstellar laws and used banned technology to create Mikumo as a de facto (and illegal) clone supersoldier.  When Exsedol later summarizes Cromwell's positions for Max and Arad, what he lists is all common sense stuff like advocating for more widespread use of unmanned fighters to reduce the risk to pilots and advocating for cloning and cybernetics because they offered the potential to improve medical care for the wounded. 

I don't think Heimdall is lighter shade of grey as he wiling to use Siren System which uses BABY as main component of System. Clone or not its still uses baby as weapon and Hiemdall and his sponsor treat it as weapon and experiment

Also Lady M only clone 1 Star Singer which is Mikumo and still treat as human as she allow Mikumo bond with Walkure

33 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We know the YF-29 was developed to exceed the performance of the YF-24 Evolution but it's left unclear if it truly did so and if so by how much.  I'd assume the YF-29 probably does surpass the VF-24, but ends up on the losing side of the equation because the VF-24 can be mass produced and the YF-29 can't because of its massive price tag and the insanely high fold quartz requirements

Then YF-30 and then VF-31 came in surpass VF-24 and seems to be VF-31 are one of best replacement for VF-24

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... people are gonna ask that question, since the central New UN Forces can barely lay hands on a YF-29 in the best of circumstances how did a 70+ year old retiree apparently get a personal one, esp. after leaving the military and no longer being able to use his clout as commander of a New UN Spacy defense force to secure the latest models

One of the reason that his daughter are one of the founder of NUNS especially on De centralization  policy and one of the leader of anti Pro Earth UN space during Unification war aka VF-X 2. Also Max and His wife got themselves VF-25 8 years ago in Frontier Movie 2 novelization as they join NUNS in Final battle. So of course NUNS would give YF-29 to Max. Delta Movie 2 also show there a lot of NUNS and Xaos Captain are still deeply respected Max

Actually YF-25 build based on YF-24 blueprint to reduce cost and increase its versatility 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Blu-ray liner notes literally say that it is unknown how Max came to possess a YF-29.

(Kawamori jokes that he might've used his influence with the New UN Forces to get it.)

Well Max and his family are kinda treated as royalty by NUNS for being 1st interspecies couple. Its shows that Max and Milia have VF-25 in Frontier Movie 2 novelization.

9 minutes ago, RangerKarl said:

Re: papa Immelmann whitewashing
 

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I think in this movie's continuity he never dropped the Bomb, just nicked the gene samples.

 

Anyway I quite enjoyed it. It's no SnT but it'll do.

Things I enjoyed were

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Bogue throwing out Sheryl's line, and the training scene. I'm fairly sure somebody was copying someone else's HUD scene during one chase sequence.

 

On 10/2/2022 at 2:35 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

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There is literally nothing to back that claim up.

 

He's able to control Aisha because she has a network implant in her brain, same as the people from Galaxy.  She was, again, the exception.

Havamal controlled others not via implants, but via the Sharon Apple system's hypnosis.

 

Wrong on a few counts.  First and foremost, the AI used on the Ghost X-9 is not sentient and never was.  Sharon was simply able to infiltrate and control it because it was based on developments made during the creation of the Sharon Apple system.  Luca's ghosts in the series are restricted to semi-autonomous operation until he lifts that restriction, but those ghosts are running the same AI software as the X-9.  The prototypes he's working on in the audio drama, however, DO have personalities and some awareness as a way to prevent them from going berserk.  The personality was safety feature, not a risk.

Also note that the Siren Delta System was unrestricted and yet had no operational issues to speak of.

 

 

Which does NOTHING to change the fact that what Lady M did was massive hypocrisy and blatantly criminal under laws she herself forced on the New UN Gov't. 😉 

 

 

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It's possible he simply didn't know who was piloting the VF-22 that destroyed Carlyle.

Or the writers simply forgot.  It would hardly be the only significant plot hole or self-contradiction in this movie.

 

Well Movie version of Macross tend to change story and contradict with series lore like Sheryl in movie are actually reluctant colleberator with Macross Galaxy conspirator and Grace actually grew care for Sheryl so much that she willing to give up her revenge and do not erase her happy memories with Sheryl or DYRL where Zentradi plot and design completely change.

Also I kinda love Full Armored pack VF-31 as I considered natural evolution from VF-25 Armored. Even VF Armored pack are boxy and VF- 1 super pack also boxy and unaerodynamic.

But my most favourite pack is Super Ghost pack. What do you guys think of Super Ghost Pack

56 minutes ago, NightmarePlus said:

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I was sorta meh on the movie too. How the hell did the baby, who was cloned using Star Singer DNA same as Mikumo, ended up becoming a Windermeran or is the rune just cosmetic? 
Final battle was meh too, Frontier did theirs a hell of a lot better. What's with the smaller escort ships in Delta not engaging each other with their main weapons and just sit around doing nothing or just firing off AA?

 

On 10/2/2022 at 2:35 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

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There is literally nothing to back that claim up.

 

He's able to control Aisha because she has a network implant in her brain, same as the people from Galaxy.  She was, again, the exception.

Havamal controlled others not via implants, but via the Sharon Apple system's hypnosis.

 

Wrong on a few counts.  First and foremost, the AI used on the Ghost X-9 is not sentient and never was.  Sharon was simply able to infiltrate and control it because it was based on developments made during the creation of the Sharon Apple system.  Luca's ghosts in the series are restricted to semi-autonomous operation until he lifts that restriction, but those ghosts are running the same AI software as the X-9.  The prototypes he's working on in the audio drama, however, DO have personalities and some awareness as a way to prevent them from going berserk.  The personality was safety feature, not a risk.

Also note that the Siren Delta System was unrestricted and yet had no operational issues to speak of.

 

 

Which does NOTHING to change the fact that what Lady M did was massive hypocrisy and blatantly criminal under laws she herself forced on the New UN Gov't. 😉 

 

 

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It's possible he simply didn't know who was piloting the VF-22 that destroyed Carlyle.

Or the writers simply forgot.  It would hardly be the only significant plot hole or self-contradiction in this movie.

 

28 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Spoiler tag your spoilers.  There are still a lot of people who haven't seen this one yet.

 

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Granted, they don't really address a handful of specific incidents... but what you're missing is that, in-universe, those are acknowledged to be exceptions regarding tech that has generally otherwise proven safe, reliable, and effective.  

The Zentradi have been using cybernetics for half a million years for various purposes without incident.  Several human characters in the Frontier-era materials also have cybernetics that are not network implants to address injuries or improve their performance that are never presented as posing any issue whatsoever like Nicolas Berthier's fiber optic nervous system or Oscar Brauhitsch's cybernetic arm.  

As for AI, the Sharon Apple incident is an acknowledged aberration caused by Sharon's computer model brain being based on Myung's and absorbing a lot of her emotional baggage as a result.  In the Macross Frontier audio dramas LAI is experimenting with implementing the same AI system safely and is generally successful and the same air combat AI is later used by Luca in combat without incident.

 

No, they're not at all hypocritical.  Remember, Heimdall's position is that those technologies shouldn't be illegal in the first place.  Their open use of those technologies is very much consistent with their stated ideology.  That is the OPPOSITE of hypocrisy.

Lady M, on the other hand, was masterfully called out on HER hypocrisy by Heimdall.  After all, Lady M was the one who argued for those technologies to be banned and for their use to be criminalized, before she then turned around and used them herself the minute it was convenient for her. 😉 

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, that was certainly a thing that I watched.

The Labyrinth of Time puts a magnificent cap on the story of Macross Frontier and publicly shames its successor before Macross Delta drunkenly stumbles to a long-overdue end with a well-animated but badly written, clumsily executed mess of a story full of unremarkable music and telegraphed plot "twists" where the villain's motivation makes infinitely more sense than that of the heroes and OG Macross characters show up to drive home how disappointing Delta's are with the subtlety and grace of a piledriver seating a channel marker.