Pterobat

Okay, I forgot there was a thread for the music podcasts. Am reposting my 2000s post there, leaving the original text here. Ranka "rising" with odd jobs I get, but with Universal Bunny, I just assumed that whoever was in charge of the sequence pulled its motif out of the "things a female performer could do" hat.

Focker? Eh, I don't find Roy that interesting, really. If you want to talk manly Macross characters, I prefer Britai. I don't know if the makers of the Frontier movie thought far enough ahead for Universal Bunny to be a commentary on the expectations of "purity" placed on idol singers. What I do figure is that it wasn't meant to show how Sheryl sees herself. She wouldn't be self-conscious enough to buy into that false division.

Cool stuff as always: it's lots of fun to see how the media franchise has grown and changed over the decades, as well as the sheer *breadth* of marketing for Macross. --Macross Zero was one of those things that you enjoy while you're watching it, and then just don't have much to say about it. What I remember the most are the beautiful underwater backgrounds. --As for myself, I really *wanted* to like Frontier, but somehow I ended up forgetting most of it. I want to rewatch it in the near future, since I really got into the movies, so I figured I'll give MF another shot soon. --I really don't get the impression that Kawamori was deliberately trying to subvert viewer expectations with events in <i>Macross Frontier</i>, just that he happened to produce something that seemed that way. Most creators of fiction have better things to do than "troll" an audience. It's like when people assume Gurren Lagann was deliberately concieved to be an atidote to Evangelion, instead of just the creators making what they wanted to. --I'm surprised more women prefer Ranka, because I'm a chica who prefers Sheryl and finds Ranka a little bit irritating. You could come up with reasons for either gender to prefer either character, though. --I had absolutely no idea <i>Macross 7</i> was supposed to have a Mylene/Basara/Gamlin love triangle. I honestly did not pick up on that, especially since Basara was rocking that "shounen hero beyond sex" thing. --When it comes to shipping, well, I just think it's aggravating if people get crazy obsessive over it, but the fact that it happens isn't surprising or weird especially the mild, "Will these characters whose relationship was a part of the official material get together or not?" version of shipping. --Speaking for myself, my very mild problem with "Universal Bunny" was the way Sheryl's stage performance suggested a virgin/whore split with her personas, though it's probably more the character playing to the crowd rather than expressing her view of herself. I've never thought of the character as truly self-centered, just that she's in control of herself. --The first time I started getting interested in "Wings of Farewell" when first hearing about Sheryl and Ranka's concert sequences earlier in the film. The costumes and art design looked amazing. --I thought "Bromance" was a way of saying "these guys are close, but it's totally not gay". --When it comes to the ending of Wings of Farewell I went with the same assumption I did at the end of the <i>Saint Seiya</i> manga: You don't *actually* know that the main characters made it through okay, but you just assume they did, based on the hints and the tone of the story, so you don't have to see everything. --"The Musiculture" sounds like something to see; no matter what the quality it's going to be a must-see for the sheer weird novelty of it. Having a completely new story and cast also increases the draw. I wouldn't miss the Valks, and also thought it was neat that one character has the last name "Dosel", though we're probably gonig to get nothing on whether or not she's Vanessa and Rori's granddaughter.

Hel-LO! I keep telling myself not to get my hopes up, and it ain't working.

Char clones are equally impossible, but the difference is I don't care about Char. "FoSTW" works because they were uncultured Zentradi, so it makes sense for them to act that way. I was thinking more about "Fastest Delivery", and the way that they all act like they've never seen a human being before..it just makes no sense. Even if they're in a remote outpost, and blah blah blah. Richard Bilra is more of a grey area: I don't mind his having a reverence for Minmay, but when a search for Minmay is his entire motivation, it's a little disappointing. Anyway, it ties to the larger issue I have, which is that the Zentradi aren't given as much opportunity to expand their array of character types. It's not about quantity so much as there is little to counterbalance it, and using it makes no sense beyond uncultured Zentradi.

Yeah...I ask what the point is of acting like otakuism is part of the Zentradi Y chromosome because that just plain doesn't make sense. I tended to chalk it up to laziness: of going back to what's been done before, even if the fictional society has moved forward. I never thought of it as being a result of Macross' style becoming more insular and dependent on in-jokes and references to the original series, but that makes sense, especially from what I've heard about the way the anime market in Japan has been going, concentrating on a smaller and smaller otaku niche. Most of the references to earlier Macross in Frontier I can imagine going down easily to audiences not familiar with it, but the "Male Zentradi are otaku" stuff might be even weirder to those who don't even know what it's supposed to be a callback to.

Thank you! Actually, I was referring to the fandom in general in my whole comment; I thought that was what you guys were discussing, too. I know the podcast crew were all dudes, having listened to SpeakerPodcast from the start. I've been in Macross fandom for about three years, and only started posting here recently because, at least from what I've seen at MW and AnimeSuki, the fandom just has different "style" than what I'm like or what I'm used to. I'm more interested in discussing characters than mecha, and I have a lot of hang-ups that might be considered weird, but not for most other fandoms. I tend to think this is the result of a "male" way of doing fandom, and usually assume almost all the other posters are dudes. It's never really been different throughout my experience with Macross fandom. Yeah. I didn't think it needed to be said, but the thematic core of Macross is still very consistent, it's just that the changes in the anime industry are reflected in the franchise, so that it does feel like it changed. I watched all the series in a short amount of time, and it felt that way to me--that these are shows in the same media franchise, but don't quite fit seamlessly with each other because they were made in different eras. I'll concede that I like Alto as an idea more than I like him as a character. His backstory is a cool and very Macross-y thing to have (breaking away from previous constraints and all), but so little of him was memorable. Sheryl and Ranka were far more defined as characters. However, dislike of Alto goes beyond not finding him an effective character. It's about his failure to conform to gender roles and a standard of "manliness" that is apparently expected of mecha characters, which would be grating at the best of times, but when Alto actively rejects the onnagata role and just uses it as an occasional tool, it comes out looking even more silly. It all sounds like anything that smacks of the feminine or appealing to female viewers is this horrible mutant monstrosity. I'm aware of the horrible Christmas cake thing, and it pops up a lot in anime, but even if the handling of the character is a consequence of the society that created her, it doesn't make it entertaining or funny. I'm not saying Milia can't be a comical character, because she can be, and it can work, but it helps if it comes from the character, not just an arbitrary stereotype stuck onto her. For the record, I love unstructured, bantering podcasts like this.

A long podcast deserves a long reply post. Away! Thoughts: --Honestly, I still can't wrap my head around the notion that Macross, whether the first series or the entire franchise, is a purely masculine media franchise that would attract men and boys only. The role of music over guns, the love triangles, and of making peace with enemies, strike me as an arguably "feminine" qualities that make Macross as a whole into a franchise that I thought would have more female fans for it. I mean, I'm a girl and I like Macross, but it's exactly because of those girly aspects that I did. For an example, I'm a Zentradi fan (that Richard keeps mentioning on whatever podcast he's on, for some reason), but only because of the discovery of culture storyline. I don't view the Zentradi as these cool badass warriors, but slaves discovering there's something better to life. S'true I like mecha, but only as "works of art", just as aesthetic things to look at. --Has Macross changed, as a media franchise? I haven't seen the Macross series unfold in real time, but my objective answer is that Macross has changed because each series needs to adapt to whatever's currently popular in anime. The art style, the character types, and all that's influenced by which era Macross was made in, so each work looks and "feels" different, and so does the mass-media presentation of it. --I don't get the hatred of Alto. Bishounen have been a part of Macross since Max Jenius, and the only difference is that Alto is also a professional cross-dresser. But a major plot point is that he's giving up the onnagata lifestyle and is indeed resentful of it, and only uses it as a tool rather than a fetish, so I'm surprised the audience is still put off. Plus, as I said, Macross isn't a super-manly franchise anyway. It's not like Alto showed up in the middle of a Super Robot show or something. --I don't watch much newer anime, so I can't comment on the volume of moe stuff. Moe as a "thing" disturbs me a bit, because from one I've seen, I'm inclined to agree with every negative criticism about it, and not try to respin it back to its original, neutral definition, or as something that's mostly coming from platonic adoration. It just creeps me out. --I saw Macross 7 piece by piece, in about 2009. And...jeez, I did not like it. I saw it all the way through, and a few of the OVAs, and...nope. No. I understand what the series was trying to do, what it was trying to say, and usually I'm on board with those sorts of things. But I didn't like Basara, I didn't like the Protodevlin, the scientific explanation for the effect of music, a lot of the plot structure, the animation style, etc. I sometimes wish I enjoyed the non-SDFM Macross stuff more, but not in the case of Macross 7. It was just this instant oil and water thing. For the record, I love the way that music was used in SDFM, but its extension in Macross 7 had the opposite reaction. The fact that Basara is so unwavering, so undaunted, is also exactly what bothers me about him. I prefer characters who grow and change, who start out in a lower position and rise higher, and who don't seem to have too much Protagonist Power. It's not that he's a pacifist, because I'm not into that ra-ra military aspect of Macross, and it's not that I don't know protagonists have to be special. I don't dislike the themes he represents, just how he's portrayed. --...I watched Macross 7 for Exsedol; no lie. I prefer the original protrayal of the character by a huge margin, though, and this was really a silly reason to watch Macross 7 all the way through. I wish I cared about the actual active characters instead, but what can ya do? I also have to say that though Max and Milia's portrayal isn't as *bad* as Exsedol's, I just didn't find it appealing. The problem with Milia is not so much that she's "domesticated", which is perfectly cool, but the fact that she's subject to so many, "Older women, amirite?" jokes that really, really get on my nerves. They look especially weird when her appearance is otherwise unchanging. Milia buying into the Japanese tradition of omiai was also just really weird. I can picture her being a matchmaker, but speciically going for that very foreign tradition when she's not Japanese and not an earth-made-type human is odd. I thought Max was a bit of a dull character, despite still having his battle prowess. I think that if you watch Macross 7 for the older characters it's harder to get by, and it's better to have everything add up as likeable. I eventually would have watched 7 eventually either way, talking vegetable or not. --Randomly, I found Roy Fokker unappealing, too. It's not that I *don't* like masculine characters, but that kind of pushy loudness usually doesn't appeal to me. His advice to Hikaru in DYRL was the worst bit, and everything besides that was just kind of mildly annoying.

Bingo. But to a *much* lesser degree, it's also about the adult fans who clamour that Hasbro cater to them above the actual target audience, and act incredibly smug on the rare times it happens.

I like this series a little bit. I checked it out after the initial wave of hype, and it's entertaining, but it doesn't hit me the way that some of the stuff it's been compared to. I don't like it as much as Pixar, or Foster's, etc. There are only a handful of episodes I'd watch again, but it was a fun show. Lately I've been distancing myself from MLP because I've found more about extreme brony creepiness, but I have to remember it's not the cartoon's fault.

It's a design retcon (or whatever you'd call it) that started with DYRL. I guess it makes it easier to tell allied Zentradi apart from humans after the fact, or those of Zentradi descent. I always thought it was a little odd because it would make the pre-alliance blending in with humanity harder, but eh. I like looking at Macross Fever, Mostly I'm just grooving on seeing the TV series designs for Zentradi used, but obviously if *that's* what I came for, I might as well just watch SDFM again. I look at Fever as good enough as what it is, a little tidbit of fun that doesn't need to be anything more. The cel-shaded CGI mechs look great, too. I cracked up at seeing cartoony crying Shammy. She's just a comical character to me, not a moe-moe sorta deal. As for DYRL, I don't like it on a fannish level, but can see it's an extremely well-made film. Nothing about it seems "dated", though I have a lot of trouble finding any media which feels that way to me.

Preach. It's a shame it's been cancelled. I would have been all for it.

Thanks for the coverage of the 30th Anniversary event, guys. I really wish I could have gone to something like that; it's hard sometimes to view myself as a fan of the "whole" of Macross, as part of a united fandom group kind of thing, since I don't really like anything between SDFM and the Frontier movies, but the 30th Anniversary thing would have done the trick, 'least for a little while. The comment about mass-murderer Shammy cracked me up. I know *I* wouldn't be able to decide between a Sheryl or Minmay confection--until they mentioned the giant "Deculture" ice cream, which from the sound of it I wouldn't be able to eat in full, but come on! [Once again, the ubiquitousness of "Deculture" almost makes me regret irrationally disliking it as a new Zentradi catchphrase...almost.] The idea of a Klan Klang head staring out from a wall sounds pretty disturbing. Just for the record, guys, my laughter regarding a Macross musical was meant to express that I thought the idea was... "hilariously wonderful". A Macross musical is a *very* appropriate idea for the franchise, but it's not going to be enjoyable on anything but the ironic/humorous level, which is okay because absurdity is part of Macross to begin with. Just like the rest of you guys, my only thought would be to have a new Macross series made, not a remake or a revisiting of a previously-established setting. "Retiring" Macross upon the retirement of Kawamori probably won't happen, but in terms of artistic principle, it's something I could see myself supporting. I still would want the soft vinyl Britai, but I've pretty much given up on it ever being produced. Shame, because that's what I would have wanted for the 30th Anniversary--decent merchandise of my favourite SDFM characters, and I know Britai would be the most likely one to have it happen.

It was such a sad thing to hear. He was an awesome author--"The Martian Chronicles" was my favourite of his longer-form works. http://pterobat.blogspot.ca/2012/06/goodbye.html

The Robotech dub voices were mostly good, yeah. And the English dub of DYRL is *hilarious*.

That looks adorably weird. I know I'd want one.

SDFM animation: Yeah, even if something is more polished in the technical sense, it's hard to bottle that feeling of the original work being The First, the way it emerged and the way one experienced it. The animation for SDFM might not be up to code some of the time, but the sensation of it being what one experienced first in unbeatable. It's like Absolute Sandman, or re-releases of old Transformers toys. Things might be more polished, but it's just not the same. I am also a Macross 7 hater. I mostly ignore it most of the time, but I'm not going to jump back through those hoops to vaguely hope I was completely wrong. Basara and the Protodevlin were grating, I couldn't suspend my disbelief as to the latter's backstory, and the older characters were screwed around with. I didn't dislike everybody, but I found no one interesting enough to pay for all of the rest. I understand what it was trying to do and be, and how it fits in with the rest of Macross' themes...but I don't care.

I really, really dislike the ADV Macross dub. And yes, in a word, I would characterize it as "shrill". Not so much a notable yelling, but a lot of high, screechy tones, with Misa being the worst offender. Many of the casting choices for the secondary cast also seemed random/bland/unfitting, helping to add to an unpleasant presentation. Though perhaps I shouldn't be saying this, because I had such an immediate dislike to the material I have never watched an entire episode of the series. I couldn't even get through "Messenger", my favourite one. You know that's bad. I'll also cop to thinking most of the Robotech cast was pretty good, voice-wise, though an exception must always be made for Minmay's speaking voice as well as her singing.

Oh no! Not...women! Yeah, I'm a chica and fanservice isn't my thing, but it's not about hating sex. Like anything, doing it stupidly is the problem, same as with violent content, so a discussion of the sex vs. violence double standard really isn't relevant. With fanservice, "doing it stupidly" usually involves bringing the actual story to a screeching halt to show the goods, with the panty-chase being a perfect example. That, and it is a personal preference--blatant fanservice detracts from the story in the sense that it reminds you the series is being made to pander, rather than just to tell a story. Most people want a pretense of objective storytelling with their shows, and to get absorbed in the story being presented. For some fanservice is just a "bonus" but for others it's a derail, even a temporary one. Badly-written action scenes can have the same effect, too.

Honestly, there is FAR less woman-oriented fanservice in any media. Comical male nudity doesn't count, either.

There's a story to go along with those?

I saw the first two episodes when they were leaked and wow...I'm really looking forward to this series. Avatar: TLA was a great show, but out of the gate, Korra seems more interesting. They're trying hard to do something *new* rather than repeat the older series, and that's something I can respect. Furthermore, Korra and Tenzin are not just shallow archetypes, but stand to become multi-faceted characters who act mature. Korra might know three elements already, but there's no shortage of conflict for her, and she's not as dumb or annoying as she could have been. Tenzin also isn't a one-dimensional "old mentor" and there is respect between them despite their odd-couple relationship. I'm *very* interested to see how this goes.

Prude.

I'll just keep watching from a very safe distance. Ranka still unnerves me a bit, though. Most arguments depend to some degree on ignoring the very obvious biases, though....nostalgia being a factor could be spoken about, but it might weaken the premises on either side. I guess my major problem is using, "Shut up, you're just being nostalgic" as a go-to response for any complaint about a media franchise's current state. It might be true to some degree, and nobody really has to respect anybody else, but such a rebuttal gets old fast.

Terrifying. D: Don't look at me.... This thread: A lot of people outside of Macross fandom are complaining where anime in general is "going" these days, so it's not just the wicked n' nasty "Robotech people who don't watch anime" who are holding that opinion. The issue is the same, though: calling out "nostalgia blinders" on every criticism of new stuff is pretty knee-jerk. Under most circumstances, I'd rather have a good clean nerdy argument over what's changed and what hasn't.