Whamhammer

It's not rhetorical. Star Wars, Harry Potter, Macross...all of these have made a lot of money, and (more importantly for me) all of them have been handled primarily by a SINGLE, CENTRAL AUTHOR, who created the world and finds artistic satisfaction in extending and developing his or her original ideas (this, by the way, has nothing to do with the QUALITY of those extensions, which may be good or bad).

Robotech, to me, loses from the start, because it was "created" by nobody. Star Wars is George Lucas's personal vision, and he is the overriding authority on it, for good or ill. No one gets to play professionally in J. K. Rowling's sandbox without her official say-so. Kawamori is the ultimate man of Macross, with the power to wipe anything he DIDN'T work on into an "alternate continuity."

So...financially, the sequels make sense; and artistically, the creators have more to say with the work. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

But...can Carl Macek claim that he created Robotech in the same way that the examples you cite created their worlds? Of course not. He adapted the series, and everything he has personally tried to create from whole cloth has been a stunning failure (not always his fault, of course).

I'm not a big believer in shared worlds or creativity by committee. Great storytelling just doesn't work that way.

So, without an incentive of big financial gain, AND without a story that NEEDS to be told...what's the point of continuing it?

It's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know.

Thats your opinion. Like I've said I accept respect your opinion. You also have strong feelings about Robotech and I know nothing said would change it. In order for me to say something that would get you to agree to an idea of a continuation of Robtoech would be nothing short of getting you to accept Robotech, which you've said youre not interested and and Ive said Im not interested in trying to get you to accept Robotech. That is why I've said that it is a rhetorical question.

^^I forget if it was the left or the right one, but the same piece broke on my Shadow Alpha too.

Would a drop (or two or three) of superglue work in your situation?

On my Shadow, I was able to superglue the part back into place with no real ill effects. The transformation process wasn't really hampered by it either (though I do treat the repaired part with kid gloves).

I might be able to pin it, but Im looking to replace it if I can.

That how the internet is you can't exactly tell how someone is talking by text alone. Facial expressions and voice inflection play a large part.

Yes this thread does go down that road a lot. It's not so much a dislike of robotech just a dislike of how its original source material is treated. It doesn't when someone (not saying you) says that RT is the greatest thing to happen besides the Beatles and Hg owns everything associated with Macross

I totally know what youre saying one of the biggest problems people have in communication writingwise , is that we talk in a different way than we write and that does lead to a lot of confusion. As you were describing I sure havent said those things and even dont hold that opinion. I'd say Ive been pretty critical of the things H.G. has done to Robotech and its fans. I just like to offer a different way at looking at things. I tend to look at things differently than others do (call that a benefit or a deffiency depending on what side of the fence youre on, I guess).

What Kevin McKeever says is mostly part of Public Relations. It's hard to know if he's even telling the truth most of the time or bending it to make things sound good for the company. You shouldn't take a lot of what he says at face value like what MEMO has been doing. In fact, robotech.com is mostly Public Relations. When it was created, it probably had its advantages for the franchise, but it's more of a liability now because of the elevated expectations it has created with the fandom. It's the equivalent of the fictional version of Dunder Mifflin Infinity.

Trust me, I havent taken much of what Kevin has said seriously for quite sometime. While he does have a hard job in P.R. there, I dont think he's the guy for it. He seems more interested in prooving a customer wrong when a customer has a complaint than listening to them and resolving it. I dont think its intentional ,Im sure hes a good enough guy, he might have his hands tied by his bosses and it comes out in frustration (been there before myself), if thats the case I wish someone would offer him a position with some real lattitude either that or H.G. get more on the ball <dont ask me to hold my breath> .

Well, thank you for the psychoanalysis. How much do I owe you?

Depends, what health plan are you on?

And no, I wasn't trying to insult you. As I said, maybe I'm just communicating badly. As for others...well, you kind of have to expect it, unfortunately. Over the years, we've had a fair number of crazed Robotech fans show up trying to justify their favorite show. Enough of them got abusive that I think a lot of us tend to be wary.

And yes, I know a lot of Macross fans have done the same thing on the RT.com boards. Personally, I don't condone that kind of behavior; I know what I like, and I don't really feel the need to force anybody else to conform to my tastes. Although if someone gets obnoxious about it, I don't mind pointing that out (witness the Sheryl/Ranka "discussions" of last year). As such, I don't feel the need to troll the RT.com boards, and I've come out against Youtube Macrss fans who just hurl expletives at Robotech videos.

Well Im glad to hear that, I hoped that was the case. Like I said if you have a need for me to elaborate by all means... ask me. Just as I would do with you. When it comes down to it , theyre just cartoons!!! <ducking for cover>

But if you're looking for a real debate, I have to say I think you're at a disadvantage. Most of us have seen both Robotech AND Macross; you haven't. And what are we debating, anyway? Are you trying to get me to accept Robotech?

No, Im not trying to get you to accept Robotech.

You're coming up with what HG needs to do to ensure that the next Robotech installment will be not be a mess. My question is, why does there need to be a next installment at all? And no one has really answered that.

Why should anything have a next installment. Why should Macross? Why should Star Wars? Why should Harry Potter? The answer to your question is that your question is rhetorical. Youre set in the belief that there shouldnt be, are you willing to say that you are truely open to such a solution if it was presented to you?

Wow...you mean they didn't force you to read that in high school? Get on the ball, then...Aldous Huxley is quite good.

Dude, my high school was lucky to be even able to offer Shakespear for people to read. They couldnt even teach the Constitution to most of the kids, much less have someone read what they might have called "modern litereature" . And by the time that show was on I was what, in my late twenties? I was probable at the drag strip running dial ins or some other race track at the time it was on. Should I ever get time to read books other than the ones getting thrown at me in school (Im going back for my degree) maybe Ill give it a shot, but right now, Im not picking up anything published-wise other than the occasional Motor Trend.

The only people with that complaint has either never heard of the internet or people that want BW to make the deal with HG, which would be Robotech fans. The benefits that HG can offer would be so minimal.

Okay, that works. That complaint is what I've heard from several people in the past about not being able to get Macross stuff. Should I hear that again , I'll be sure to refer them to here to have you guys help them find it.

That how the internet is you can't exactly tell how someone is talking by text alone. Facial expressions and voice inflection play a large part.

Edit:

I can see what your saying about the use of fighters . True the world of RT and Macross have need for fighters for different missions.(Correct me if I'm wrong) Rt solved the problem by just making a jack of all trades fighter and gave it a bunch of missiles. Macross went about it by creating a fighter that excelled in combat but gave it different armor packs to boost effectiveness.

One thing I noticed about SC is that they fired more missiles versus having actual dog fights.

Brave New World is a book... Not an anime. A crappy TV movie but not an anime.

It also seems that the Alpha also has more protection of vital components that the Valks do . The Valks seem to be more a "mission orientated" philosophy, put the extra weapons packs if you need them (and have access to them). The Alpha's philosophy seems to be "take into account all possibilites and work a comprimise in those roles"(give alittle bit of speed and manuerabilty here for firepower and toughness here, etc.), however they do have the Betas as a supplement (dont ask me why the Betas arent crewed, Ive been asking myself that for years). So yes, I agree with the way youve stated that.

Yes , I was let down with the "dogfights" in S.C. , they had blown a really good opportunity there, especially the scene where they were trying to establish Maia as this "ace" pilot shooting down twenty some-ought enemy craft in one "furrball", it really wasnt convincing.

Why does Big West need to "find a way in?" They seem to be doing just fine without giving HG a cent.

Last I've heard, the complaint is that H.G. is making it hard for Macross products to make it into the U.S., is this not true?

I have to disagree, peppered into a lot of the stinging remarks a lot of us here have been posting are some real constructive criticisms about how HG has acted as a company as well as it's direction for Robotech. Trust me, it's been well documented by people here over the years. In fact, I'll say that it's been well documented everywhere except rt.com and fandom related sites. While a lot of it is negative, it really reflects some of what they've really been doing over the years, without the facade the company tends to bring about on their site, convention tours, and podcasts. All of that is Public Relations for the fans, and it doesn't always reflect what the company actually does. You say HG should have worked harder to turn Robotech into whatever and the like, but if they really could do anything they wouldn't be in this mess 25 years after their only success.

H.G., just as any company can work harder, it just requires the decision to do so and the will power to make it happen a little more planning wouldve been key in making S.C. a better product. McKeever loves to say how profitable and succcessfull they are. I say take that success, take that profit, convert it into capital and do something with it. If they dont want to , sell it to a company that does. Take everything else you hated about Robotech/Shadow Chronicles, would you agree that Shadow Chronicles wouldv'e been more palatable if just the dialogue had been improoved by say, 25%? That wouldve gone a long way in moving that franchise forward. The worst part is that members of thier fan base complained about it , and instead of listening, they portrayed them as the enemy . I have never said H.G. is willing to do the things that I suggested. Heck I plain doubt that they will, but that doesnt mean I shouldn't say it with the thought that it will get a few more people thinking about it and maybe roll with it.

After reading all the post....

I don't understand why Hg hasn't tried to update the Veritech(Valkyrie) designs.

If you were to look back at all the aircraft designs in Macross you can actually see how they have remained the same and yet at the same time are unique in their design.

@ War Hammer why can't you create one large post with multiple quotes?

Its quite annoying to see new post and and over 4 of them are yours in a row with one line each.

Beyond,

On these two points;

1) In my opinion, they shouldn't bother updating the Valk's design, they arent being used by Earth , her colonies or the Expeditionary Force for about twenty years or so. They use the Alpha's and Beta's. I would say that Earth had a doctrinal change that changed what they needed in a fighter, now the Alphas offer a more flexible of a platform than the Valks were able to (what appear to be a larger weapons payload and more protection for components, etc.) , the Logan and A.G.A.X. were also on a more ground support capable kick (the Logan was a story of a plane become "jack-of-all-rades-master-of none" in my opinion) The E.D.F. even used non transformable fighters as thier mainstay intercept force(to its detrement) almost like they were trying to stretch the military budget to fit the better equipped R.E.F. while funding the E.D.F. . Like I've said earlier, if you use the last Forty years of the United States militaries arsenal as a comparison point, they dont look the same as the stuff that out now. Also take into account the frequency of air power used in Robotech, that amount of conflict spurs change faster in comparison to the amount of air combat seen by our armed forces that The U.S. has had over the same span of time.

2) I'm still not that familiar with this forum design. Im sorry that it annoys you , but Im trying to get more confident with it and Im tryng to keep the my discussions better organized by putting them to one "reply" each. Hopefully, Ill get better soon.

B.T.W. whats Brave New World? Is it anime? ( I only get to see like maybee one or two new series a year).

You've been putting an awful lot of words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it.

Can you stick to the arguments I'm making instead of the arguments you think I might make?

Look, we can throw piles of words at each other, but it all comes down to two main points: 1) I don't think there's any point in continuing a twenty-five-year-old slapdash, bowdlerized, whitewashed, Frankenstein monster of an anime (which is a footnote in history thanks to being the missing link between completely hacked-up kids shows like Battle of the Planets and the unfiltered, uncensored, unwesternized anime that came out in the '90s). 2) You apparently do.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable in my dislike of Robotech. I've told the story of my history with Macross and Robotech multiple times here and elsewhere, so I don't want to rehash it again.

But to say that my dislike of Robotech has nothing to do with Robotech itself, and everything to do with having something to complain about is untrue, insulting, and shows that you have no idea about where I'm coming from.

I would love to stick to the arguement you make as long as you stick to the ones I was making, I really feel that you havent . I respect that you dont like Robotech, thats fine with me. I've tried to say how Shadow Chronicles and Rising couldve/would be better via better a staff and better development and planning and not using Macross as well as criticized the parties at be on its shortfallings. Youv'e responed in kind on how the only good Robotech is a dead Robotech which is your right to believe but is hardly anything to add to the topic and hardly respectfull to my points as well. As much as people can say Im insulting , theres been more than enough of it going to me and Im not one to lay down while taking a beating and Ive been known to stay on the recieving end either.

Whn I have been proven wrong, I have openly admitted it and tried to add to the conversation on the way people see things. When you questioned my assesment of what you said, I told you where I was comming from and narrowed it down (even though, honestly I picked up a tone of insult from the way you questioned it, but wrote it off maybee I shouldnt of, oh well). I never meant to imply that your hatred of Robotech doesnt stem from Robotech, I meant to imply that it doesnt JUST stem from Robotech, sort of "thou doth protest too much" kinda thing like theres something underneath.

When it comes down to it, if you want this topic to be primarily about talking bad about H.G. and Robotech yourre not really looking for discussion, discussion contains constructive critisims as well as points of contention. Maybe the Mod's should change this thread to "How Robotech sucks and H.G. is evil" because thats the only thing some people seem interested in discussing, would this be more accurate?

"beneficial to two groups" lol.

There's some people that just skip over posts because they can't wait to post whats on their minds. Until they get banned from RT.com and then it's "F those MotherF'ers!"

If you were reffering to me in saying someone getting banned from RT.com , youve been skipping over posts yourself, I wasnt banned from RT.com, never had been ever. I walked away after I got tired of the way they treated people there that questioned them and accused people of being fanboys (some for even being "Macross" fan boys) so oure barking up the wrong tree there.

actually it's not just his opinion... we have an aircraft thread so move that talk over there cuz your off topic.

Its not off topic , I'm relating what was said about the Shadow Chronicles not following Robotech history of fighter design to a historical basis for my arguement on it .

Okay, enough of the Harmony Gold apologist attitude... it's really becoming obnoxious. I don't know what it is with Robotech fans, but whenever they see anything that resembles legitimate criticism, they get their panties in a bunch and start trying to make it look like everybody BUT them is being an irrational twit.

The same can be said about all fan groups.

Is it really any surprise that Big West doesn't want to work with Harmony Gold, given Harmony Gold's track record of trying to screw its business partners over and blaming them for everything that goes wrong (Netter Digital, GameTek, the various comic licensees), and their generally belligerent and borderline illegal behavior towards importers of Macross goods in the past? Harmony Gold made asses of themselves, and now they're dealing with the results of their actions... it's as simple as that.

Then Big West needs to find another way in then. Like I said , I have nothing against Macross products getting distributed here.

Actually we do get what we want as evidenced in the toy thread. Or are all those toys just hallucinations?

Im talking about the actuall anime.

Bridges have been burned years ago so either company wont have a relationship.

We may blame Tatsunoko for part of the responsibility but in the end HG is Douche Inc..

Well then, I guess you dont get what you want. Ive learned that when its in enough of an entitys best interests that they will mend a fence or a bridge. Maybe Big West doesnt consider the American anime market worth it enough to pony up some fence mending to bring you Macross here?

The aircraft tech talk is kind of pointless. A product needs to change with the times. Having callbacks is fine, but literally making CGI models of 20 plus year old designs doesn't help to settle new viewers into your franchise.

Thats your opinion.

Or like having the main fighter in service completely replaced by a far less capable one for no adequately explored reason... hey wait a tic...

(That still didn't stop Tommy from designing a new fighter from a previously unmentioned base in the outer solar system, by the way)

Like that never been done before. Initially the F-4 Phantom wasnt even desinged with guns because the latest selling point was missiles in air to air combat , then the Mig pilots started dancing in close so as the missiles were ineffective would that be akin to your refference? .Which main fighter are you arguing this time?

So, no Protoculture. No old characters. No old story concepts or ideas.

Why burden it with the name Robotech? If it has nothing to do with the series, why saddle it with a title that will turn more people off than on?

If there were millins, hell, even tens of thousands of people clamoring for a completely new addition to venerable Robotech brand of epic storytelling </sarcasm>, then I could understand.

But there aren't. Even in the niche markets of anime or sci-fi, Robotech is a VERY small niche. What's the point of continuing it at all?

<begin sarcasm> I totally agree . Due to the fact many Macross fans get a burr up thier butt at the mention of Robotech, H.G. should just shut thier doors and not make anything. The world will be at peace again.<end sarcasm>

Theres a saying about auto mechanincs, if they arent complaining, they arent happy.Trust me on this, auto mechanics love to complain, and theyll find something to complain about if the previous complaint is resolved. I think the scenario is the same here. After you kill Robotech, you'll have to find another series that conflicts with Macross. Will it be that Mospeada is a total rip-off of Macross? Or that Project A-Ko insulted Macross's integrity in some scenes? Or some new series I havent even seen yet has some big battle-carrier thing and confronts aliens "and that just aint right man!!!" ???

No one puts a gun to your head and says "buy Shadow Chronicles and Shadow Rising" in a thick Russian accent. You can get a group together that wants Robotech dead, raise some money along side of Big West so they can give H.G. an offer they cant refuse. Or make an appeal with Big West and H.G. to work together to bring Macross here for you. H.G. does want to make money, an effort to bring Macross to the U.S. can be equally beneficial for the two groups.

I think the point that Seto was making was that HG is still clinging to Mospeada designs while adding few new original designs. Take the difference from Macross TV and Macross Plus. We start with the VF-1 and transition to the VF-11,YF-19 and YF-21. We also get new ship designs and a completely non-related story. That's probably what makes it easier to follow Macross than Robotech, as each Macross series is self-contained with their own designs,characters and stories.

Thats all fine and good, but Ive been talking pretty much the whole time about Shadow Chronicles and its "follow-up" Shadow Rising. New Gen and Shadow Chronicles are set circa 2040 where the "fighters of the line" are the Alphas and Betas and thier derivatives (Shadow Alphas, Betas and "Super-Shadow" fighters). Shadow Chronicles is set in the timeline of the last two episodes of the New Generation and within a couple days of the Invid leaving the Earth. The mecha presented are within realistic expectations of what could have been developed, especially since the R&D guys would still be following up on projects on fighting the Invid.

As far the fighters following in the lines of previous equipment. Why should they?

Forty years ago the U.S. air arsenal's main line aircraft was the F-4 Phantom multirole, the Navy was begining to ramp up the F-14 Tomcat which was a pure air to air machine and designed to protect the carrier task force (towards the end of its life it was modded to prefrom air support duties) . The F-4's , A-7's and A6's (and in the Eighties F/A-18's) made up the majority of the Navies airpower. The Air Force had the F-4 also , but was also working towards the F-15 and in the mid-seventies the F-16 as well (not to mention one one my fav's the A-10).

Today most of the aircraft I mentioned have been retired or relegated to second or third line duty ( there hasnt even been any true air wars to spur innovation in this field), and the new generation of planes comming out are as similar to the Phantom II and the Tomcat as the Tomcat and Phantom II have to WWII prop planes or Korean war vintage jets that filled a similar role. With time and neccessity things change.

He's also breaking the rules he made on his own site posting it in the wrong place.

On the top of the Robotechx forums most likely written by him, in clear view to any visitors to the forum:

So apparently he's exempt to his own rules.

Or they can stop playing around altogether with their overblown experiment and work WITH Japanese companies to bring Macross to the U.S. (stop being greedy about it). To finally make some real money for a change.

Ive never been against H.G. working with the powers that be (in this case big West?) to bring the "total" Macross product over to the U.S. and other markets that H.G. has influence in and help distribute it. As a matter of fact, I'm all for it.

As far as them stop making Robotech all together, thats where you and I differ. I understand that you dont like Robotech, thats fine, your entitled to your opinions and beliefs. I like Robotech and I am just as entitled to my opinions and beliefs. I think they can make future projects and help distribute Macross's products, especially if there is a deal made that is mutually beneficial to Big West and H.G. .

Hey guys, I'm in a pickle.

As I've mentioned on the other sections in Mospeada/New Generationland , I broke my Toynami Shadow Alpha (shocker). I was setting it up in my display case in place of my Green Alpha/Legioss ,who will be getting moved in my "Alpha-Beta-McRibb combo" section , it was fresh from the box (knowing how fragile ShadowAlphas have been in the past it was N.R.F.B.) . While trying to bring the landing gear out to connect it to the exterior panel, my finger slipped and I snapped the right-hand "strake" on its pivot-point.

In the attached picture (Thanks VF') , the area where Bernards right foot is placed (the "strake") is the area that is broken on mine. Does anyone have a beat up Toynami Shadow Fighter that I might be able to buy from them (with that part intact, of course)? Worst case, any Toynami Alphas for that matter, but preffereable a Shadow. I can make a payment through paypal if need be.

Thanks in advance,

Whammy'

)

Hey guys, I'm in a pickle.

As I've mentioned on the other sections in Mospeada/New Generationland , I broke my Toynami Shadow Alpha (shocker). I was setting it up in my display case in place of my Green Alpha/Legioss ,who will be getting moved in my "Alpha-Beta-McRibb combo" section , it was fresh from the box (knowing how fragile ShadowAlphas have been in the past it was N.R.F.B.) . While trying to bring the landing gear out to connect it to the exterior panel, my finger slipped and I snapped the right-hand "strake" on its pivot-point.

In the attached picture (Thanks VF') , the area where Bernards right foot is placed (the "strake") is the area that is broken on mine. Does anyone have a beat up Toynami Shadow Fighter that I might be able to buy from them (with that part intact, of course)? Worst case, any Toynami Alphas for that matter, but preffereable a Shadow. I can make a payment through paypal if need be.

Thanks in advance,

Whammy'

Finally put my Eager / Scout Space Booster squad back together. I ordered them from an interesting place but they came in bits. I will probably add more detail to the eyes with 3 tiny silver bb's or something.

Anyway - its very cool to have enemy mechs to pose with all these new Mospeada releases. If you are a fan and do not have the beta combo yet - get it.

Had fun photoshopping the space battle. Working on another one with the Legioss / Alpha in soldier mode grappling with the trio of Inbits . . .

(ps - drat that toynami for not doing the top beta missile bays, need them here in the space chase)

Those are really cool!! Are those "crabs" still available to buy somewhere? And to they have to other types as well?

Thanks VF' , the are where Bernards right foot is placed (the "strake") is the area that is broken on mine. Does anyone have a beat up Toynami Shadow Fighter that I might be able to buy from them (with that part intact, of course)? Worst can any Toynami Alphas for that matter, but preffereable a Shadow. I can make a payment through paypal if need be.

Thanks in advance,

Whammy'