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You make some compelling points, but I still stand by what I've said. Mostly because of what we've seen in previous Macross shows, especially the Frontier movies which are our closest comparison in terms of real world time, and the machines involved (the current ISC equipped generation of VFs). The VF-27 vs YF-29 battle has pretty much all the examples I need. Also, the transformation from fighter to battroid (and battroid to fighter) on these modern Valks is frighteningly fast, probably around a half second. I wouldn't wanna get in the way of that mechanism.

When it comes to strategic weapons like dimension bombs, I don't have much that I can say. That kind of thing goes out of the scope of fighter on fighter combat, but it is certainly a consideration. Though, considering how they have defended against massive focused beam attacks with barriers or swarms of Vajra, I wonder what kind of defense options they have against WMDs. Omni-directional barrier maybe? Is that still a thing?

As for Alto vs Klan in space... I can't speak to that because Macross Frontier didn't treat space like space at all. It was just a bigger, darker atmosphere to that show, with shock waves and contrails and everything (though highly stylized, it's kind of hard to miss - please correct me if I've missed something about the tech that explains these phenomenons).

The very idea that they were turning in space invalidates a great many things. It's not possible (or at least not practical) to turn in space... there's no medium to push off of and it takes an equal amount of thrust to cancel a directional movement as it does to create one (verniers being a lot weaker than main engines means they can't cancel movement in that vector as quickly, so pointing the nose is easy enough, but won't as easily change direction of travel like in an atmosphere because there's no medium for the wings and body to interact with). Rotating and translating is what spaceships do... and that was actually pretty well reflected in that opening battle of DYRL all those years ago, so there is precedent. I need to go back and evaluate the space battles we've had in Delta up until now before I can comment on this series's treatment of space, but I think it's better than what we got in Frontier.

Also, the only atmospheric example in Frontier with Queadluuns I could think of is that short bout between Alto and carrot guy in episode 12.

But, yes, to try and move back toward the topic, this episode is yet another example why Walkure needs full-time protection. Hayate should have been stationed with Walkure to provide point defense, maybe with a couple destroids as backup dancers. They could put on a great show while doing it. I wonder if Hayate can protect against the Var with his sweet moves. It's been shown before in Macross that not only singing has power, what with Veffidas' drumming and all.

Then again, Mikumo did just sort of start singing right in the middle of everything without the rest of the crew being ready for it. That wasn't a very tactically sound decision, but everyone just went along with it. In their defense, maybe they would have had more defense if they weren't on a covert mission. At least when singing on Aether they have that shield pyramid which can take an impressive beating. And, also in their defense, they actually remembered the multidrones this time. I wonder if we'll ever get to see them recharge again.

This is very much a horses-for-courses problem, your two examples are designed around completely different missions (among other things). In a 1v1 close-up, the -18 should have the advantage, but the -31 would ideally have already taken out the -18 at long range.

And I'll stick to the more speed = more options school. It's not everything, but it makes it a lot easier to dictate the engagement versus standing in one spot.

Uh oh, we're about to end up in one of those classic arguments of fighter X vs. fighter Y that nobody can ever escape...

There is no argument here - the F/A-18 is clearly superior to a MiG-31 in a dogfight. So superior there is no question.

To be clear, a dogfight is a close range, relatively low speed engagement involving guns and short range air-to-air missiles. Of course, missiles sort of determine everything these days, and HOBS (High Off-Boresight) missiles can negate maneuverability to a large degree, so I'm assuming guns only for this example (and I should have made this clear earlier). Also, Valkyries can intercept missiles with their own missiles and guns, so that's sort of a moot point here as well, so I'm assuming guns only for the Valkyries too.

Yes, the MiG-31 is a long range interceptor and has that major advantage, but my point was to illustrate that in a dogfight, turn rate is what matters, not top speed (and a battroid can out turn a fighter, or rather rotate inside the fighter's turn radius in a dogfight situation). Since missiles don't count for much in Macross these days, there isn't really any place for long range interceptors in that universe. It's all about WVR (Within Visual Range) combat almost entirely at subsonic speeds, but I digress.

The example of Bogue zipping past the VF-31As doesn't really apply here, because he wasn't fighting the VF-31As... he was flying past them at high speed. They weren't fighting him either, rather taking a few potshots at him as he flew by. Of course it's a moot point because in a series like this an important character isn't likely going to be beaten by some no name, no face pilot. Besides, if they wanted to chase him, the VF-31As could have transformed and chased him....... again, my point is that there is a mode for every situation, and the strength of a Valkyrie is that it can transform to adapt to changes in circumstances. If anything the example supports my position because it illustrates that sticking to one mode is disadvantageous. I never said or even insinuated that a battroid is superior at chasing something down... that's why we have fighter. However, a battroid or GERWALK would be better at protecting Walkure because it can actually stick with them rather than flying around them in a wide orbit and being out of position 3/4s of the time. Ozma protecting Sheryl in Itsuwari no Utahime comes to mind.

The engagement isn't necessarily dictated by who's faster, but rather by the objectives of each side. If the objective is to shoot down the White Knight, then speed is important because he's going to be running away for most of the fight until he's in an advantageous position to counterattack (like in episode 13). If the objective is to protect Walkure, then the airspace in the immediate vicinity around Walkure becomes most important. This airspace moves with Walkure, and if they are stationary, then speed isn't as important. Unless no one is protecting them and Bogue is free to just rush in and shoot them in the face because their defenses utterly suck. A couple battroids standing with them or GERWALKs hovering nearby (with important enough characters inside to be skillful) would be effective at deterring him. His tactics might have even gotten him blown up by now.

In a 1v1 the engagement is dictated by whoever is being attacked. If they run, then it's going to be a high speed fight as the attacker is chasing the defender down. If the defender chooses to stand his ground, then the attacker is going to be forced into a slow speed fight because that's where his objective is. Everything is determined by the objectives.

I suppose in a fight where two dudes just wanna kill each other it really depends on who does what first. Keith vs Messer for example. Both pilots chose to stick to fighter, so it was a fighter on fighter duel. If one had transformed (like Hayate vs Keith in episode 13), then it would have shifted the paradigm. But someone has to make the move first. I still think the whole fighter vs fighter thing in Delta is mostly an honor duel situation, not one of practicality. Keith only transformed because he couldn't shake Hayate, and he might have pulled an advantage from that if Hayate didn't transform right along with him.

You know, Arad really should just stick close to Walkure and protect them. It would give him something to do. Ozma had it right.

Delta has too much stuff going on to be good. It lacks a solid focus. Is it a coming of age series about a love triangle? A series about a band? A series about rival knights of the skies? You can say it is all of them but it is impossible to do all of them justice in a twenty or so minute long episodes. TV shows traditional have a main A story and minor B story in each episode. In a single of episode of Delta they try to include several A stories in the same amount of time. Result is all of them look like the B story. Delta needed to focus on less characters or expanded each episode's running time.

I don't think the whole a-plot, b-plot structure applies to this kind of series, though. It's more for episodic shows where each episode is a self-contained story. This kind of overarching narrative typically found in anime is a little different, but I understand where you're coming from. All in all, I don't think there is necessarily too much going on in Delta, but rather the production staff might not have the skills to pull it off. They can cram a ton of information into a visual story like this one, but they have to be a master of pacing, as well as using the visual medium to its fullest. I also think that if there is recycled animation in a show (and Delta has a lot), then odds are those scenes are superfluous because they aren't bringing anything new to the table.

Then again, maybe the last episode will tie everything together flawlessly and blow our minds!

... yeah right. It'll be a rushed ending that will be totally different in the movie retellings that follow.

Sorry for going off topic, but this is something that has been on my mind for a while:

I would love to see some less atmospheric, more space only real mech designs from SK.

Well, there is the GP-01Fb from Gundam 0083. Shoji Kawamori designed that one, and it's a pretty boss mobile suit design in my opinion.

I personally think the mobile suit is probably the best all around 'space fighter' I've seen in science fiction. I could explain my reasoning, but that would go way off topic.

I tend to think every Macross series since the original feels like ideas from something else being tailored into Macross.

If you rewatch the first episode and make a comparison to where thing have gotten now you'll see a drastic change in overall direction. Not to mention several interesting elements are dropped overtime.

The very cool/fun idea of dancing battroid action scenes are all gone in favor of generic dog fights since episode 6. I would totally get a kick outta seeing Hayate confuse the crap outta all the windermere pilots and beating his opponents with break dancing moves. BUT NOPE. No more of that.

Chuck being shown as a cocky pilot in calling himself "Chuck-sama to the rescue" the first episode with his "submarine attack" is also nonexistent ever since.

The seemingly powerful Aerial Knights are also swept to the wayside without any further development in character or special fighting skills for most of them.

It makes we wonder if Shoji took off from Delta half way through and became more devoted to his "next project" already.

I find myself rewatching Plus because of it's great action sequences and Sharon apple concerts but tend to skip over all the "plot stuff". Plus was not all that great in it's writing as well. It had good characters but none of them had a real arc in terms of change or development.

I agree. I really thought Hayate was going to be some kind of break dancing pilot who would baffle his enemies with his moves, and take the overall 'no killing' approach. Instead, he went from being this really colorful, independent character to being little more than just another Valkyrie pilot with little to distinguish himself from the rest. In my opinion Alto did it better.

But I still like Hayate. He's got a cool personality.

I also think that this show might be too much of a Macross story, and not enough of a story on its own merits. It builds upon a rich universe, but as a result doesn't bring as many new ideas on its own. That's just a feeling I get, though.

As for Plus, I think it was a really good story about friendship. It had strong themes and believable execution, which gave it weight and power. At least it did for me... this is all subjective of course.

Sorry 19 I forgot to spell out the acronymn's, I usually do that.

I think you're talking to me? Don't worry about it, I can research. Acronym Finder really helps with that.

If anything, being given only part of the puzzle encourages me to read more and expand my horizons, so it's all good. At least for me.

That being said, the trend since Zero is that SK is limiting the tactical uses for battroid and GERWALK combat in atmospheric engagements (as I feel he should). These limits are logical. In space all bets are off and the Valks can utilize all their transformation capabilities without any noticable disadvantage.

Aside from having more power for the engines, I don't really understand how fighter is useful in space. Or GERWALK for that matter.

I really don't see the logic of limiting the other modes in atmosphere. In Zero, maybe, because they were older designs using modern jet engines, but even in Zero there was a lot of multi-mode air-to-air combat. Frontier didn't have as much because they spent so little time in an atmosphere, but when they did, the also utilized all modes. Fighter mode is good for speed and range, but that's about it. Fixed wing aircraft are extremely limited in what they can do. In a dogfight situation, something like a Queadluun-Rhea is going to wipe the floor with a non-transformable fighter. Dogfighting is all about optimizing turn rate in order to point weapons. A vehicle with arms isn't as limited as one without.

I think there is a fallacy that the faster an airplane is the better it is in a dogfight. What would be better in a dogfight, an F/A-18 or a MiG-31?

LOL no problems with me. I enjoy good civil discussions like this. I know what you are talking about on F-16.net. I have a login for that site but I usually use it for information or pics and I work on the damned things. I know from experience there is always someone who knows more than you do or has a little more knowledge. If you comment on there and are even remotely wrong or perceived as wrong you better be ready for a fight and those arguments can get really really ugly on there. But Anyhoo......

As far as I have seen of actual launch footage that isn't slowed down for the engineers, it is eyeblinking quick off the rail. All I have seen shows a literal puff of smoke/dust and the missile is gone. That is why that whole family and type of IR missiles are so dangerous. All of them from the Sidewinder to the Python series are insanely quick off the rail and damn near impossible to deter once they are launched.

Pulling high alpha stunts plays havoc with the internal systems too. It tends to drive the LEF systems so hard that they use more lubricating oil than normal. We always had to check the PDU oil levels on the F-16's when they came back form high alpha missions at Edwards. I know when the Russians started showing off that cobra maneuver in the MIG's and SU's most fighter pilots actually questioned its practicality in combat. Most are inclined to believe it is too risky to try for the same reasons we have discussed, especially the issue with being rear ended by the chasing aircraft.

I'm always interested in this kind of really detailed and nuanced insider information. Also, I'm very glad for Acronym Finder right now

Not necessarily. The problem with Delta is subpar writing and directing. It's not the 3 Macross pillars that are the problem.

For example, Macross Plus was also not meant to be a Macross story. Kawamori had other ideas for it originally and only made it into a Macross story in order to get the necessary funding. But we can all agree that it turned out pretty well.

I'm of the opinion that Plus turned out so well because it wasn't originally a Macross story. Sometimes, writing from within the confines of a set universe can color the end product, so coming at it from the other direction can have interesting effects. Looking at it as a story first, rather than looking at how it'll fit into the universe, marketing, production, etc.

Just a little info on missiles, the speed of the current AIM-9 off the rail at launch is mach 5.

Hachi machi that's fast. Is there any sort of visible shock wave in certain conditions to look for in videos?

I don't think the micro missiles in Macross are all that fast, honestly. The YF-29 was able to keep pace with them in that scene in Sayonara no Tsubasa without (visibly) breaking the sound barrier. Usually when Valkyries go supersonic in Macross they make a big show with the shock wave and whatnot, and there was none there.

I really like the Queadluun-Rhea from Frontier (and the QRau as well, but I don't like the older design as much personally). It's a pretty cool machine that takes a different approach to flight than the Valkyries. Still, supposedly the VF-25 is superior, but I'm pretty sure it can't outperform it in an atmosphere in battroid mode alone. I'm sure it's only superior when all modes are taken into account.

As for cannon fire it is a rule of thumb when in combat you do not fly in a straight line especially as you over shoot or pass your target. The pilot will start to maneuver to throw off the aim of his opponent and will be performing BFM to keep his opponent from getting a clean shot.

I don't know why suddenly they restricted the battroid mode to hover only but I suspect it may have been to back up the lack of multimode combat sequences or legitimize gerwalk more, only SK knows for sure. All the prior Macross series showed air to air in a literal 3D tactics regime. Now they decided to limit it again.

Oh, yeah, of course. Jinking is life when something is filling the air with lead in your general direction (speaking from video game experience again). I was mostly referring to facing down a Gun Dish with guns being a generally bad idea, because it takes time to aim and fire and in that span it's also going to aim and shoot back. Also, you gotta slow down to make an effective gun run. It turns into a high explosive incendiary game of chicken, where even if you pull away, you're still probably gonna get hit. Best to use the standoff weapons if you can, and stay out of range altogether. But I digress (again).

Battroid (and GERWALK too) does have the advantage of not having to fly in the same direction that it's shooting, so there is that. Fighters can only manage that with crazy high alpha wizardry, or in the case of some Valkyries (like the -31) popping out the arms with the guns on them like Chuck did that one time (though that was in space).

As for the battroid ostensibly being nerfed, if the reason is only to legitimize the relatively lackluster fights in Delta, then I would be really disappointed.

Just so we're clear, I have nothing but respect for anybody's real world experience. The only reason I can compete at all in a discussion like this is because we're discussing something that isn't real, but is an extrapolation of modern technology that I've studied as an enthusiast for a long time. I wouldn't even weigh in on a discussion on F-16.net, for example. I've seen what happens to amateurs there .

What I'm saying is that relative velocity doesn't matter in terms of closure rate. It matters because a moving platform can launch missiles a lot farther. If you launched a mach 2 missile from a plane also going mach 2, you might be launching a missile at mach 4. While the math isn't that simple in reality, let's say that also extends the missile's range to double. The fighter will be able to fire off salvos of missiles at the battroid with impunity, and the battroid won't be able to touch him, because his missiles can't fly that far starting from zero velocity.

Even if they're using cannon rounds, the same rough physics will be in play, though if standard gatling gun physics apply, your round grouping is going to be terrible at those sorts of ranges. With guns, as long as you account for ballistic trajectory, there's still a chance they could hit. Micro missiles in the Macross universe though seem very dependent on thrust vectoring, so once they run out of fuel, they might just drop out of the sky.

I fully agree that missiles benefit from being launched from a faster moving platform. That's why we see so many standoff weapons in the arsenals of real world forces - they are supremely useful.

But, engaging a flying battroid isn't like engaging a bunker... the battroid can still move, and can intercept the missiles with its own guns and missiles (maybe negating both fighters arsenal of missiles, if they all destroy each other). I think two equally skilled pilots flying identical machines, one in fighter and one in battroid, would end up in a, well, a standoff. This is of course still assuming 1v1 in an open sky.

The relative closure thing is mostly for guns, because since a fighter has to point its nose as what it wants to strafe, and in doing so it's moving toward the target that in this case is shooting back at him, the closure rate would come into play. But, if the fighter were going to loft its bullets at max range then, sure, it could maybe hit the battroid at outside of the battroid's engagement range. However, with the lost energy from range and air resistance, the armor might be enough to protect it. But, in that scenario, why would the battroid stick around waiting to get shot? By then he would be in fighter and screaming off toward his next deculture.

I remember when I was a teen and playing a lot of pseudo-realistic PC flight sims, I learned pretty early on why it's a bad idea to strafe an active ZSU-23-4. I know that knowledge and experience doesn't translate well into the real world, but for this discussion I think it's relevant.

Also, I wanted to point out the missiles in Macross are designed for Valkyrie combat, and are probably optimized to work pretty well in all modes, and in both atmosphere and sky. Though I think there are some dedicated long range intercept missiles too, like the ones we saw in Macross Plus.

No worries about the debate, glad you're enjoying the discussion. It's a fun diversion from real life problems.

What do you mean diversion

Seriously, though, yeah. It really is.

I'd like to see how Hayate would do piloting a Zentradi battle suit. It seems like a better match to his frequent use of battroid mode in air combat than a Valk.

If Frontier episode 12 is any indication, Queadluun-Rheas at least don't dance as well

If the pilot staying in fighter knows what's good for him? He's not going to go anywhere near the range of the guy in battroid. And he wouldn't have to.

That's one other thing speed gains you: range. The guy who zips around at arm's length lobbing missiles at the relatively stationary battroid isn't at much risk from most of his weaponry, because his own weapons inherit a massive energy advantage from his speed. He may still have energy weapons to contend with, but the guy in battroid is a relatively fixed point to unload on, and the fighter can just let loose with everything he has at his own maximum range, while he might be outside of the battroid's max range entirely.

Even if the fighter closes with the battroid, the battroid's missiles are at an absolute minimum level of performance, making them that much easier to avoid or outrun. On top of that, if he does close in, because he's moving so fast, his missiles might be coming from more angles than the battroid can effectively cover simultaneously, and he'll have to run.

Note, that's all using current day tactics and missile performance, but even 50 years in the future, missiles launched from a moving platform are going to go faster and farther.

That's a little like trying to strafe an AA gun. The fighter is a lot faster, sure, but keep in mind the relative airspeed. If the fighter is going fast, and the target is stationary, then you can think of the target heading at the stationary fighter at the same relative rate of closure. So, it's a moot point because speed is a relative factor here, so any advantage gained by shooting from a fast moving platform is negating by the fact that the fighter is headed toward the incoming bullets at that very same airspeed. Cancels out.

There's a reason the A-10 is regarded as such a great CAS airplane, and it isn't because it's fast.

Also remembe that just because a pilot switches to battroid, he doesn't have to stay there. The moment it becomes disadvantageous he can switch back to fighter (in an instant too, if the transformation animation is to be believed) and he's off again. Alto did that when Brera fired missiles at him, and a moment later he was flying about as fast as the missiles were. Of course, the YF-29 is a very high performance Valkyrie, but the point remains.

Once the pilot cuts into Battroid mode in a situation like that he loses all his energy. To re-engage the opposing fighter he would have to switch modes and build his energy. If you take a jet fighter into a climb after an opponent and go into burner after you start the climb its like holding a lighter upside down (this came directly from a fighter pilot who did this in an engagement at Cope Thunder back in 1994, he ended up pretty much hammer stalling his F-16 at 22K and had to let the FLCS computer recover it). Jet engines just don't instantly push the aircraft frame up to speed, the engines have to move the frame forward so it would take a minute or so (I am guessing the time for these style engines). It would take the battroid pilot a couple of minutes to regain his forward energy for re-engagement during which time the opposing pilot would have more than likely watched and reacted coming around for another pass. Energy is life in air to air, the pilot with the most energy dictates the dogfight and if the opposing pilot is smart like Chronocidal stated he won't engage on his opponents term but will maneuver using their energy advantage for an opening that will give them the shot they want

That I believe is why there have been no real multi mode engagements. Unless your opponent switches over to battroid which is limited to hovering it would be pretty much be suicide. Plus the Windermerans preoccupation with the "wind" and the strange birds of their planet, I have a feeling they prefer fighting using their wings which they spout on about.

You're constraining these future spaceships to current day fighters, which they are nothing like. Air combat tactics are based around the limitations of the technology, not the other way around. In Macross they are already stretching big time to have Valkyries resemble real world 4th and 5th generation fighters (to the detriment of their usefulness in space, if we're considering physics), but that doesn't mean the same rules apply. Remember, energy fighting is based around fixed wing airplanes and their limitations. Valkyries are not fixed wing airplanes, or rather, they aren't full time. They have options, and each mode has its own set of rules.

A deep stall in an F-16 is something that could never happen with a Valkyrie for two reasons. One, it can transform and recover easily in a different mode. Two, it has vernier thrusters that are powerful enough to orient the fighter even in at atmosphere. This has been shown over and over, even back in Macross Plus when the YF-19 was shown using verniers to tighten its turns in fighter. By this point (2067) the verniers are so dang powerful they can move the battroid around very quickly. I'll link the GIF I made for another thread of the VF-27 doing that.

Also, you can't stall a Valkyrie engine. It's a spaceship.. it doesn't need air to operate. They can even work under water. Stalling a modern day turbine is easy as depriving it of air for a moment... like flying through jetwash or ingesting gun gasses. That's 'cause it needs a constant supply of oxygen rich air to keep going. A Valkyrie doesn't. They don't use turbofan engines.

This may seem like I'm being a bit pedantic (and I probably am) but it's to illustrate my point, which is: you can't apply rules of current day technology to these extremely advanced space vehicles.

You can't apply the same tactics, either, because as I said before, air to air tactics are based around the limitations of modern fixed wing jets. Phrases like "speed is life" may be true for modern planes, but that's because stopping is literally going to kill the airplane. From the point they leave the ground any stoppage of movement is likely going to result in the destruction of the craft, and the only way to recover them in one piece is with a massively long strip of exceptionally flat and clean ground. Those are the staggering limitations the tactics and strategies must be designed around. That's why they had to develop aircraft carriers and their crazy way of doing things, which even today is regarded as being borderline insanity.

And beside all of this, it's not like all air-to-air combat is fixed wing. What about helicopter air to air combat? Those tactics are massively different from fixed wing because helicopters play by a different set of rules.

Oh, right. The promised GIF. Keep in mind it's slowed down to about 60% because I think it looks better that way. Check out those verniers. As you can see, a Valkyrie can do a lot more than just hover in place and wait to get shot.

Now, is the VF-27 more powerful than a VF-31? Maybe... it has a heck of a lot more engines. But, that was mostly vernier thrusters, which are separate from the main engines (typically).

Yes the T/W are way up there but still going from 0 to 700 would take a a minute. Remember the opponent is flying a VF also so the opposing pilot is still at full speed maneuvering for his next shot.. The speeds may increase but the tactics still pretty much stay the same. What I basically said was that energy is key as Chronocidal stated. I don't believe either that Battroid would be commonly used in atmosphere so much either because of that.

That's the thing - the tactics don't stay the same because these aren't full time fixed wing airplanes. Valkyries have been shown to have incredible acceleration potential as well. The YF-21, unlimited, was able to burn itself up from atmospheric friction while climbing into low Earth orbit. The YF-19 was able to easily get to space (or close enough) in less than a minute from ground level on Eden, an Earth-like planet, and then thanks to its toughness plunged right back into the atmosphere without a care in the world.

Like I said before in another thread, there is no such thing as a low energy state for a modern Valkyrie. They can accelerate from 0 to Mach in no time. Remember the Ghosts taking off in episode 3 of Macross Zero? From a standstill on the catapult to ascending through Mach one in the span of about five seconds (I can make a GIF of that if you want). And that was Zero. Those are unmanned Ghosts, sure, but the YF-24 was the first Valkyrie that was able to chase down a Ghost and kill it thanks to ISC (another game changer), and the fighters in Delta are arguably a generation after that (or at least on par).

Are they limited by atmospheric friction? Absolutely. But's more of a maximum velocity thing, rather than an acceleration to maximum velocity, which is a different metric. The speed limit might be 70 on the highway, but a Corvette is going to get there a heck of a lot faster than my truck, which gives him options I don't have.

Valkyries may resemble modern fighters, but that's in much the same way a Barrett rifle resembles a musket. Technology increases ability, and thus changes tactics.

Thanks to Hayate's sick dance moves, we are shown that battroids can spin in place very quickly. Like I said before - a battroid can out turn a fighter. It's optimum corner velocity is 0.

PS: Put me in check if I come off as rude. I've been told my way of writing (and speaking) can come off that way sometimes. In truth I find this discussion delightful.

The problem with Battroid in air-to-air really should be that killing your airspeed to get a shot makes you an easy target for a wingman but that hardly ever comes up.

Flying shouldn't be that much more difficult for a late-model VF, they have crazy TWR. Unless the 31 defaults to dumping all of its engine output to its ECA and PPB in Battroid.

A 2v2 happened in Zero, which is sort of relevant even though there was no transforming involved until the tail end of the duel.

Shin did a cobra, and Nora did likewise to avoid overshooting. Ivanov and Fokker continued on forward and were gone the next moment, leaving Shin and Nora to duel. In the case of transforming and dumping airspeed, the same thing would apply. The wingman would also have to transform to keep from immediately overshooting, and there would be a battroid brawl between the two while the other two fighters carried on.

But, that's assuming they were in some kind of formation. There are so many variations that there is no one right answer, and a Valkyrie pilot would make choices based on the situation, weighed against their own ability to make good judgments, react, control their fighters, etc. Each mode represents a different set of tools, and the pilot must be able to choose the right tool for the job, and do so at a moment's notice.

I'd like to know how much performance the verniers on these things have. Is there any data about that?

What I thought happened at the ruins was akin to an "overload" effect. Both Heinz and Walkure were resonating with the structure, and the resulting amplification of both fold waves may have caused Mikumo, Freyja, Hayate and Heinz to enter a trance/Var(as with many other individuals) due to pushing the protoculture structure to its limits.

Maybe, I dunno. I should have been more careful to point out that's what I saw as happening, which doesn't necessarily mean that's what actually happened. But Heintz was KO'ed by Mikumo, and Freja had already been KO'ed by Kaname, when Mikumo caused the ruins to blow up or whatever happened to them at the end there. Then again, it could have already been at capacity with all the focused singing and she just pushed it over the edge.

Well, now I'm confused too.

I too want to see more Arad. I want to see more of everybody in the Delta team but I want to see Arad the most.

I was rewatching that space battle in the asteroids many episodes ago and Arad was doing some pretty cool stuff there, but I don't think he's done much since then...

Also, I'm wondering what will become of Messer's VF-31F after that crash. It presumably survived crashing after Messer was killed (because it doens't seem the Valkyrie's AI takes over when the pilot is incapacitated, or else Hayate probably wouldn't have crashed down like that), and as others have mentioned Alto's VF-25 survived a crash on Galia IV... but Alto did at least manage to get the nose up. Hayate's crash looked to be nose first.

I know everyone is itching too see multi mode combat and we did get a little this time but after reading Sketchley's translation of Great Mechanics G sparing 2016 I don't believe we will see too much of it in an atmosphere. According to it the battroid mode can hover but not fly. That may explain why it has been limited so far to fighter vs fighter.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between hovering and flying. Is it strictly a matter of speed?

But, either way it's irrelevant because it still doesn't add up. Dogfighting tactics are all based around energy management. Why? Because energy = turn rate, and turn rate is literally everything in a fixed wing fighter dogfight. Guns (and I'm assuming this is a guns fight, not a missiles one) on fighters usually face forward, so the fighter has to turn in order to place its weapons on target. If the fighter loses too much energy (goes too slow) it loses the ability to turn at its maximum rate and is at a potential disadvantage. If it goes too fast, it also loses that ability. This is why "corner velocity" is important, and must be maintained for maximum effectiveness in a dogfight. This is based on the limitations of fixed wing aircraft, and only applies to fixed wing aircraft (and variable geometry aircraft like the F-14, to be pedantic).

So, let me put this out there: what has a higher turn rate, a fighter or a battroid? VFs with ISC can certainly turn extremely fast... but a battroid can hover and spin in place. Quickly too if Hayate's dance moves are any indication. If the battroid can maintain a position or a slow speed, turn in place and have its guns always on target, then how can a fighter have an advantage over that? It doesn't matter even if the fighter is at its optimum corner velocity and maximum rate of turn, it's going to get shot up by the battroid if it gets anywhere near it. The only possible way a fighter could turn quickly enough to defeat a battroid in this regime is extremely high alpha, post stall maneuvering which the battroid or even gerwalk is going to have an advantage in anyway. Also remember in those modes the guns can be aimed much more effectively thanks to the arms.

So, if you're chasing a guy down and he suddenly switches to battroid, what happens? First, you overshoot big time as you zoom by the rapidly decelerating battroid. Saying you stay in fighter, what do you do then? Do you turn around and come in for a pass, in the same way you might strafe a ground target? But the battroid has its guns trained on you, so no matter what angle you approach from, he's going to shoot you... and his bullets are just about as fast as your are, maybe a tad bit slower thanks to being on a slower moving gunnery platform. Even if he doesn't shoot you down as you approach, he's probably going to get out of the way of your fire using his extremely effective vernier thrusters, and then shoot you up as you pass by or fly away. So, what do you do?

You do what Brera did in Sayonara no Tsubasa. Switch to battroid and use verniers to avoid fire while returning fire yourself. Then you might let some micro missiles go to force your opponent to retreat so you can recover and reengage.

There are of course a lot of different things that can happen in the above scenario (for example shooting the guy as he initially transforms and risking a collision, or filling the air with missiles in an attempt to overwhelm his defenses or distract him), and this does assume a 1 v 1 fight (which is what we see a lot of in Delta, since other pilots disappear when the writers don't know what to do with them), but the point is battroid is a useful mode, even in air combat. I'd even say it's useful especially in air combat.

I know this is ground we retread a lot here, but every week I think of new examples of why multi-mode combat is better than single-mode combat, and I feel compelled to share them

Well of course she reminds you of her mom!

---

So, I'm seeing a lot of comments about not understanding what happened in the episode. What's not to understand? Mikumo and crew started to sing at the ruins, which amplified their abilities because that's what those ruins do, and that resulted in a runaway reaction between Freja and Hayate. Since we already have seen that Hayate has been more and more overwhelmed by Freja's singing and her connection with him, it stands to reason that when her singing is amplified by the ruins its going to have a much more profound effect on the guy. When Freja and Hayate resonate, we get that effect inside of Hayate's brain head that isn't dissimilar to what happens to a person who's been Var'd. So the real mystery is what does the synchronization have to do with the Var syndrome. My guess is that much like the Vajra bacteria, Var could have a good or bad effect depending on circumstances, and I'm sure the power of song (positive song at least) will turn it all around in the end.

I guess Freja's trance as well as Mikumo's reactions were a little unexpected, but it's really no weirder than anything else that's happened in Delta thus far. Also, that the amplified song caused some dudes to age rapidly is something that hasn't yet been explained. Still, not that weird. Maybe the frenetic imagery is what's throwing people.

If song and age do have a correlation, then I further guess that song is going to ultimately cure the short lifespan of the Windermere people, but that's already been hypothesized by other members before me.

Also, is it just me or was there some time slowdown there? When Hayate rushes Keith it looks like time went all wonky like it did when Alto was delivering his final love speech at the end of Sayonara no Tsubasa as the beams inched toward him.

Reading this over before posting I notice I start a lot of paragraphs with "So..." I need to work on that.

Also, this is currently my favorite thing

I wonder what it would take to get another Macross Plus in today's climate.

I try really hard to enjoy stuff that is in my area of interest, and will put up with a lot if there is something in a show that I like. I knew from the preview episode that Delta was going to be wacky, but the Valkyrie action was still cool, and I'll deal with everything else to get to that.

But, thankfully, a lot of the other elements have also grown on me (and I let them), so I'm really enjoying Delta now. Though, that said, I would really, really love another show in the vein of Plus.

Depending on how this thing with Hayate's father goes, we might have a theme here of being separate people from one's family or parents. Mirage has her struggles with expectations of her as a pilot, and Hayate might have to deal with his father being a mass murderer. Mirage even told Hayate that it doesn't matter if he's following in his father's footsteps or not, because he did so independently and is thus following his own reasons.

This is also kind of similar to one of the themes in Frontier of doing what comes naturally to you. Doing things because you couldn't stand not doing them, or something to that effect. In both cases it's an exploration of why people do the things they do, while advocating for following one's own reasons versus expectations.

Someone needs to make a shacking GIF from this image and add the "DECULTURE INTENSIFIES" title

You know, when I saw that scene I knew it was excellent GIF material. I'd do it myself, but I unfortunately don't know how to add words (in any way that would do this justice).

The rampant fan service in this episode is another example of Kawamori simultaneously exploiting and critiquing an industry - in this case, sexualization of sometimes junior idols - and getting away with it.

I still found it a bit tasteless and problematic; at the same time, I didn't get the sense that it was presented as any sort of statement about the Walkure themselves so much as the people who consumed it. It's the girls sexualizing themselves for their own benefit, not other people sexualizing the Walkure for their benefits.

Well Hayate's 31J like the other 31's of Delta Squad are equipped with a pretty rare and expensive fold quartz system so it makes sense that they don't have a spare around after the 31J was lost on Ragna. And even if they wanted to replace the 31J they dont have the resources to make another one in the state that they are in, barely able to afford ammo and supplies. So a replacement 31 is probably the least of their worries when they have Messer's plane. For all we know Hayate's 31J was probably Delta's spare backup VF until he joined then they painted it his unique color and gave it the Delta 05 designation.

Also, the intro is actually growing on me.

You're point does still stand, what I'm trying to get at is the VF-27 and the YF-29 are so capable in Battroid because they have an extra pair of engines, whether they can rotate or not. Having more punch than what two VF-171's can deliver strapped to your back aiding in your balancing and maneuvering gives it an advantage over conventional twin engined VF's that it would be a really tall order for most pilots to fight the battroid fight in atmosphere against a quad-engined VF.

If you're willing and not able you're a dead man, If you're not willing but able you're a smart man, if you're both willing and able you're crazy, but that's what it takes to be the best.

I really think its the hardware that Delta Platoon uses and the type of engagements that the Aerial Knights initiates (and the time and budget) that prevent us from getting in atmosphere battroid action. In the past a switch to B mode in the air was a commitment to go all in for that one fight, but the AK are fighting the long war and cant afford to trade shots in B mode. Delta Platoon don't really have too much of a reason to transform to take a few more moments to line up a shot when presumably their opponents should be just as capable of dodging and evading said shots no matter the mode their in. We've seen just how capable Alpha or Beta mooks in their 31A's are in B mode, they were next to stationary and missed every shot at Bouge when he went for Walkure on Ragna. Though we should expect Delta to be better in that regard, probably.

I just dont think we are going to see that level of fight till the climax of the series when all the chips are on the table. I hope to Lord Kawamori that I'm wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

Still, though, the fight between the YF-19 and YF-21 was really battroid heavy (though they didn't have ISC, which possibly changes things). If the VF-31 and Sv-262 are comparable, then that kind of multimode fight should still be the norm (or at least common). Though I suppose with the advantage given by the Lilldrakens maybe it would make the difference... but then the Sv-262 pilots should be using battroid more since it would grant them an advantage in that mode.

I wonder how much the extra engines contribute to the vernier thrusters, because the VF-27's are pretty dang powerful. In battroid Brera was able to dance out of the way of Alto's fire pretty effectively, and a lot of that seemed to be thanks to verniers propelling him downward and laterally.

I also forgot to mention that in a dogfight too much speed can be a bad thing. Dogfights are subsonic in nature because when flying too fast it takes longer to turn. Corner velocity for most 4th generation fighters seems to be around 350-450 knots or so. Any higher than that the turn widens at max g, which hurts turn performance (takes longer to turn around at high speed at max g). Any lower and they will bleed energy and stall before reaching max g. Turn performance is best at corner velocity, and that's really important in a dogfight. Of course, ISC may change that (because max g is substantially higher than nine, though there would still be an optimum speed for turn performance), but I'm still pretty sure even the high speed dogfights in Delta are subsonic, though that's pure speculation.

I do recall those -31As tooling around in battroid mode, but those guys looked like they were just phoning it in for that battle. At least they didn't get blasted as Bogue passed by...

In any case, I've spoken my piece on the matter so I'll let it rest. Also, I really enjoyed putting those gifs together... hope you guys liked 'em too.

Unfortunately that fight is so ridiculously short.

The VF-27 can't rotate its wingboard engines either, and even though it isn't as powerful as the -29, Brera also went battroid in that fight.

I think my points stand.

If it does turn out to be Hayate's father who bombed Windermere, I get the feeling that the real reason is going to be pretty ugly, and maybe much more complicated than anyone has let on. The "too kind for his own good" line has me wondering about how that would fit though...

...I feel like we're going to find out that the bombing saved Windermere from itself somehow

Hey, yeah, that's a good hypothesis. What if there was a Var outbreak on Windermere and the bomb was dropped to save the rest of the population from rampaging humans, or even Windermere people?

That could be considered an act of kindness by one perspective and an act of treason from another.

It isn't only about performance of the aircraft. It is about tactics in air combat.

in M0 when Roy transformed into battroid to capture his gun pod, what happened? Ivanov spammed him with missiles. In the time it would take Roy to transform back, Ivanov could have come back around and spammed him with gunpod rounds. The only mode worth using in an atmosphere is GERWALK which gives you a quick direction change, though it will retard your momentum to a point. The SV-262 has the advantage in that respect, with the mini-drakkens giving the Windermerian pilots the ability to change direction without the delay of a transformation sequence as Keith demonstrated. The Mini-D's act like the outboard engines of VF-25 Tornado Pack, except they are also detachable ghosts.

Battroid mode would be most effective in the air when the fighter is being swarmed as Max demonstrated in SDFM. This allows the pilot to use his gunpod and head guns to defend against incoming ordinance and aircraft, but even that is a short term tactic. The longer he stays in one place the more vulnerable he becomes.

Air combat has to take into account wind resistance, gravity, the speed of your opponent and his relative attack position to yours. In Space all the pilot really needs to be concerned about is inertia and his opponent, so all modes are effective in that environment.

I contend that the performance of the aircraft dictates tactics.

Macross Zero may not be the best example because the variable fighters were only a couple steps up from a regular early 4th generation fighter (the F-14), and didn't have anything even resembling the performance of what we see in 2067.

I have heard the argument that Keith uses the Lilldrakens similarly to the rotating engines on the VF-25 Tornado pack, and thus he doesn't have to transform to get the benefits of extreme thrust vectoring. Indeed, in Itsuwari no Utahime, Alto was shown doing some crazy things with his Tornado packed VF-25 (been meaning to make a gif of that missile evading scene). However, the YF-29 also has rotating engines, as well as more power thanks to its fold magic system, and yet Alto used transformations in his dogfight against Brera. To be fair, I don't know if the YF-29 can rotate its engine as far as either the Tornado Pack or the Sv-262's Lildrakens.

I also understand the argument that transforming kills your airspeed, which makes perfect sense. However, what I don't think is being understood here, is that airspeed does not matter in a modern Valkyrie brawl. The power these things have is so immense that there's no such thing as a low energy state. They can accelerate in an instant to healthy dogfighting velocities.

I made a gif of a sequence from Sayonara no Tsubasa. Alto blocks a beam shot with his shield, then transforms to escape some missiles. I want you to take note that he went from battroid to flying away from the missiles in a very short amount of time, and his speed was such that he was able to keep pace with the missiles as he took them down. Heck, he nearly outran them.

Imgur Link - warning, it's kind of big (~40 MB). It's also slowed down to about 60% as I feel that's a good speed to actually understand what's going on in the scene. Frontier and Delta have very fast action, to the point of being confusing.

Keep in mind that during this battle Alto wasn't just facing Brera's VF-27, but also three V-9 Ghosts, which have been shown to be pretty fearsome opponents.

Air combat tactics change with technology. The tactics you'd see in World War II are nothing like the ones being used today, even in a dogfight scenario (which is pretty unlikely to happen at all with 5th gen fighters).

I won't comment on the tactics used in space, because frankly the variable fighter in fighter mode is a terrible design for a space fighter. Though, if you want me to go into it, I would be more than happy to, but probably in another thread (I already have a little in the Delta mecha and technology thread, if I remember correctly). Don't get me wrong, I love Valkyries, but they do have their shortcomings in concept. And maneuvering in space is one of those things that very few people seem to understand.

Actually it was 1 on 4. Brera had 3 Ghosts with him.

You know, Hayate sure has lost a lot of valkyrie arms... I wonder what his callsign should be.

Made a gif of Brera's VF-27 evading fire in battroid mode in an atmosphere (from Sayonara no Tsubasa).

It's slowed down to about 60% so it's easier to follow.

Imgur Link

I was gonna make some more gifs showing how much acceleration the YF-29 has and whatnot, but I'm pretty tired, so maybe I'll do it later if anyone is interested. My point is that transforming in an atmosphere isn't a detriment for a Valkyrie in a dogfight, but rather an advantage. The YF-29 goes from battroid to fighter and accelerates away fast enough that it nearly outruns the missiles that are chasing it... loss of energy isn't a problem for these things.

If Guld is/was still alive you betcha he would've requested the same treatment Isamu got with his VF-19 ADVANCE on a VF-22. Or he could've ended up flying a VF-27.

Becoming a cyborg is certainly the only way Guld could have survived... but I'm just gonna put money on he's still proper dead. Evidence, the famous extra few seconds of the M+ movie edition when he bites it, lol.

Maybe Guld will have a 3 second cameo appearance in the second Macross Delta movie.

He'll fly by in his VF-22 ADVANCE while saying "It's me Guld back from the dead!"

Most of the VFs have this problem actually, due to the lack of horizontal tails. I think only the delta- and forward swept winged VFs - and not even all of them - have enough control surface area to pitch up from a runway take-off, especially not with the landing gear placement on most of them being so far back.

They do have incredibly powerful vernier thrusters, though. Didn't Basara take off once from a dead standstill in fighter using verniers to get him off the ground enough to transform to GERWALK or something? It's been a long time since I've seen 7.

There are a lot of things that sort of bother me about Valkyrie deployment, though, but I just let it slide because I know it's all style. They are styled after modern 4th and 5th gen fighters, which I'm okay with because they look really cool and dramatic, but they have so much power and technical wizardry that there is no need for them do modern fighter stuff like launch from a runway on a carrier.

Since they're not fighting giant aliens anymore, using battroid mode does seem inefficient. But the ability to hover, stop mid-flight, and fight sideways? Gerwalk is golden in the atmosphere.

I personally think the strength a Valkyrie has isn't in any one mode, but rather in using all three modes as the situation demands. I have to admit Delta's dogfights have been a little dull to me because they neglect this principle that has been so well established in previous Macross shows.

Being able to swoop in, use GERWALK to rapidly reverse direction, then switch to battroid for a stable gunnery platform as the pilot takes a few shots at their opponent, then switch back to fighter to zoom away with their incredible thrust to weight ratio... that's how a Macross dogfight should be. Again, I reference the fight between the YF-29 and VF-27. That was an atmospheric dogfight with modern Valks with ISC and super powerful engines, but it was a lot more dynamic and interesting than what we have seen in Delta (IMO).

And keep in mind the battroids we have now are not sluggish by any means. Their vernier thrusters are so powerful then can dart around to dodge fire in any direction while returning fire with their accurate arm-carried weaponry, which is exactly what Alto and Brera did in Sayonara no Tsubasa.

Seems like SK actually studied air to air combat and decided to be more realistic than stylistic. There are plenty of resources on the interweb if you too are interested in aerial combat principles.

The space combat uses all modes because there is little disadvantage to change modes in space, it actually is MORE advantageous in space, tactically speaking.

As for the other series, I believe outside of Zero, this one has the most atmospheric battles yet.

Valkyries are nothing like modern day fighters, even when restricted to fighter mode. And modern day fighters are nothing like WWII era fighters that had to claw for altitude to get an energy advantage.

A modern 4th gen fighter has a climb rate somewhere along the lines of 60 thousand feet a minute (this is from memory so probably not spot on) and a service ceiling around 50 thousand feet. Energy isn't as big a problem now as it was then, but it is still a very important concern.

Now consider the Valkyrie. The YF-21 had enough power to start burning up in the atmosphere while climbing, all the while crushing its pilot. The Valkyries in Delta are far above that in performance, and have the revolutionary ISC as well as other fold-quartz wizardry that puts them head and shoulders above even the 2040s era machines that were already so powerful they were a hazard to the pilot and had to be substantially limited.

So, now (in 2067) energy is a nonexistant problem. They can gain energy so fast that losing it in a fight is not a concern. Or at least it shouldn't be. I wouldn't put *too* much stock in Shoji Kawamori's understanding of modern air combat, and the associated technology. If you know what to look for, the ignorance (in some areas) is really apparent, but if you don't then it all probably seems like they know what they're talking about. (And I mean no disrespect here. I'm just making observations)

Heck, based on something Messer said, apparently the VF-31 doesn't even have FADEC.

Edit: clarity