ChronoReverse

I choose to believe that Sheryl wakes up and does a new concert with Ranka (in the credits!) and that Alto will come back some day whenever they encounter the Vajra again =) Anyway, the movie was frantic, sometimes silly but always fun. Plus the music was great too. Thoroughly enjoyed it because I didn't come in expecting them to be completely serious. Plus the new way the characters were portrayed was very nice. I really liked Ranka, Sheryl and Alto as they were in this movie.

*sigh Every time a Macross event date is passed in real-life I look to the sky and lament that the ASS-1 didn't fall...

Destroids probably are still tougher than battroids in the Macross universe. The real problem is that the weaponry in Macross seem to far outstrip the armour. Because of that, agility and the ability to dodge becomes much more important that heavy armor.

From http://www.gabrielarobin.com/mainsite/gr.html We'll probably never get anything more than this lol

Heh, that's one interesting thing about this episode. The way the Macross gave warnings to the escort group, it was as if they really were just appearing on the sensor screens out of nowhere (although, as you've said, the escorts had some warning time). Which seems silly since they're in space =). I suppose it could be handwaved as radiation belts or something since they were near Earth. Still, the Zentraedi had the luxury of dictating the initial flow of battle whereas the escorts couldn't exactly charge out there to fire their missiles and it showed when the pods got to fire first (and subsequently was wasted by Max).

Indeed. Right after the shot of the pods firing first. Interesting. The single engines are in fact _not_ an animation error. The single engines are ghost drones! That makes for 6 ghost drones and 6 valkyries by my count. This means that the part with Max counting 3 units with 4 valkyries moving is more likely an animation error in both number of valkyries moving and number of valkyries on screen. This doesn't negate that he remained fairly close to the shuttle. Since it's not feasible to just stand right besides the shuttle, simply being in battroid fighting range of the shuttle is still close range.

They can hold them off sure but they were trying to protect a shuttle. That's an entirely different thing from the norm (protecting Macross or deep space battle). Furthermore, in the other times, like you said, they took them out with the opening salvos. This is something Max and his wingmen didn't have the luxury of since they were ambushed. When Hikaru arrives of course, we see what happens when you can get such a salvo off. Besides committing even 10% of the fighters to protecting someone who's on a mission you think will save humanity (from being wasted by the Zentraedi fleet) doesn't seem particularly extravagant. No it's not laughable that an animation error could be followed by another. However, you assumed the lights being single isn't an error when that in itself could be an error or simply an artistic shortcut. The problem is that you're picking and choosing without admission to it. I have at least acknowledged your interpretation of the animation errors several times and used it to show that it doesn't make out Max to have been as bad as you say regardless.

Wait what? Let's say it was entirely animation error and that Max did in fact only send 3 fighters as you say. Are you saying that Max could have done better against 20 to 1 odds (3 fighters versus 60)? And what Hikaru did _was_ impressive. It's the (proper) introduction of the Super Valkyrie and it definitely made a wow. Plus Hikaru is a great pilot as well O_o I think you completely misread what I meant. I was mocking you for holding one scene as accurate that some of the engines lights are single so they can't be valkyries while at the same time saying the another scene must be inaccurate because the number of fighters Max mentions is fewer than the valkyries that moved.

Why? Does the dialog contradict what I just said? (incidentally, in the light of the previous thread, this technically isn't quite on topic either)

Erm, since we see more than 3 fighters behind when the fighters go off, isn't the simple solution simply that (1) Max sent off _more_ than three fighters (2) There were at _least_ 9 (or 12) fighters in the escort It's not a particularly hard to swallow conclusion that there may have been more than 12 fighters is it? Let's say 6 squads of 3 which makes for 18 fighters? Still badly outnumbered over 3 to 1 by the second attack wave alone. Besides, 20 minutes was the absolute longest it took for Hikaru to get there since. In fact, it MUST be shorter than that since 20 minutes is how long it would take enroute reinforcements to arrive. The point of sending Hikaru is to get there earlier. In any case, the odds were clearly bad for the escort if Global thought that they wouldn't be able to protect the shuttle the 20 minutes for reinforcements to arrive (which makes sense considering how soft a target the shuttle is).

One is a scene showing the entire group from the distance where the whole formation is smaller than the screen. The other is a zoomed in shot that even cuts out most of Max's valkyrie. You're not even trying.

I'm not going to bother to argue after this. You're not even watching the episode in motion and you clearly have an agenda to push. For example, for the rear shot of the planes, you say "Look! Some were only single glow therefore they couldn't be valkyries!", then you go to the part with 4 valkyries flying off and you say "Meh, animation error". Of course, conveniently ignoring how that very same scene has 8 valkyries. Of course, this also misses how if what you're saying is completely true, 3-5 valkyries managed to destroy 30 attack pods with only minor damage to the shuttle. As for episode 18, oh yeah, I'm sure YOU would be able to ignore being attacked by the best ace of the enemy fleet to cover your squadron. Especially when the whole operation was to isolate Max just for Milia to fight him. Not to mention how Roy gets hit AFTER he ORDERS Max to bug out.

Hehe, for me Macross is Serious Business

(1) If this is true then you can admit that you were riffing with an inaccurate interpretation, I only care about accuracy of what the claimed events are. (2) Indeed. He sent 4, 5 and 6 to _delay_ the attack while they were evading. His words. (3) Wrong. At least 4 valkyries vector off at his orders. Therefore it must have been sets of valkyries not individuals. (3a) It's still engaging the first group. It's a real attack afterall. (4) If both objects are significant on the screen (taking up a sizeable chunk that is) then they're spitting distance of each other. Did you need the debris bouncing off the shuttle or something? (5) Assuming this is true (which it isn't because the lack of atmospheric interference means that weapons have incredible accuracy), the shuttle was still large on the screen thus point blank. (6) This is your assumption of the situation and since we were not privy to most of the battle there's nothing to directly refute it. However, we do know that the defense shot down 30 out of 60 pods with the shuttle only being lightly scathed during that time. In DYRL Max was certainly a hotshot and went off to fight Milia, but this isn't so clear in SDF. This particular event however doesn't show any problems in how Max dealt with the attack. Note that there are at least 12 escort planes Delay them Before they started moving Four planes are seen to break off This is when the main attack arrives. Max is about to transform his plane here (meaning he's going to fight here) The debris of the first pod Max shoots down Moving obliquely past the shuttle Just before Hikaru arrives Max is still here A shot of the VF-1J

If you're within visible distance in space, you are BESIDE IT. In that very shot you're talking about, one of the pods Max just destroys goes right by the shuttle, how can you call it anything but spitting distance? Not to mention in the shot right before that, you can see the shuttle firing verniers to try to adjust its course out of the action. There's SIXTY pods charging at Max and his escort complement, of course some of them could fire at the shuttle while they're trying to fight them. It's not like you could stand on the shuttle's wing and shoot from there. And Max sent his squadron off to delay the attack. What is wrong with doing this without knowing the full situation? The operators on Macross didn't know anything either and it's the nature of an ambush that you cannot know about it beforehand. Besides the fighters he sent off were close enough to rejoin the main shuttle defense as well so that means Max didn't send them off on a wild goose chase. And note how even though they were recalled, 1 out of the 3 squads were STILL left there to fight the first attack because it's a REAL attack. So here's the summary: (1) Max didn't fly away from the shuttle, since the pod he had just blown up floated past the shuttle even while it was breaking apart. (2) Max sent some of his squad out to deal with a real attack. They were still close enough to come back and help but not all of them were called back since the first attack had to be delayed from entering the fray. (3) Max kept the greater part of the defense (most notably HIMSELF) with the shuttle and managed to destroy half the attacking force in less than the 20 minutes maximum (implied to be less than that) it took for Hikaru to arrive It's nothing short of a spectacular victory to survive an ambush of superior numbers for that long while trying to protect a soft target. I don't really care what you feel about Hikaru or Max, whether they're overrated or not. This is simply a wildly inaccurate interpretation of the events.

Certain point of view? How was he fooling around then? Explain, because saying it's a "point of view" is worse than a copout. I just rewatched it right now and there's no "point of view" here. Max was alert to the situation and even used appropriate tactics (delaying the attack so reinforcements could catch up). When it turned out to be an ambush, he had his forces already there and even himself already there. Despite being outnumbered, he destroyed half of the enemy forces by the time Hikaru arrived (which took less than 20 minutes). What could have he done better?

What are you talking about? Max was told by the Macross controllers that there was an attack and he sent some planes to delay the enemy while he and some other planes stayed behind. Macross then tells him there's an ambush as well and guess what, Max is there to help defend the shuttle. Too bad they're MASSIVELY outnumbered and the reinforcements won't be there for a while even though 2 out of the three sets of planes sent to delay the first group returned to help. Then Hikaru was sent in the super to save them. Max did his job EXACTLY like he was supposed to and even destroyed 30 pods (out of about 60) by the time Hikaru got there. He showed he was a good commander AND a great pilot.

Really now? You're missing out on some pretty intense scenes =( Here's a treat just for you:

Well, there is digital recording capability high enough to match 35mm film but I don't think any of it is actually used for movies right now (being experimental). I think that's what he's saying? There's only one person who's confused about upscaling (which I think most of us understand isn't even nearly as good). In any case, I think that the source material for Macross Plus has enough detail to warrant an HD release assuming they cleaned it up =).

The point is that they're not the video standards we're using in the mainstream. It's not like I said film has infinite fidelity but that it has very high fidelity. I also assumed it would've been obvious that poor film or even poorly used film wouldn't have the equivalent to high numbers of lines. You're right about the studio editing formats being high though. Keep in mind that they use more bits per color channel as well for increase fidelity so just the number of equivalent pixels isn't the end of the story. As for recording technology, isn't the experimental at only about 4k lines right now? That would be equivalent to high quality 35mm I guess. Dealing with that much digital information just boggles the mind though. Let's see, assuming square pixels, at an aspect ratio of 2.38:1 with 4000 lines would be 9520x4000 making about 38 million pixels. Using 10 bit color channels that would be about 136MB per frame. Time 24 frames per second (although it could be 30 or 60 let's stick with good old film for now) means over 3GB per second of recording. Uncompressed of course but lossless compression usually only cuts out half so that would still be over 1.5GB per second. I'm sure they have the tech to do this easily but it's still rather amazing.

It's like you argue for the sake of arguing. Since you were discussing about how the VF-17 could handle well in the atmosphere (fly well) beyond the TV I simply mentioned that it's possible there were more aerodynamics being taken advantage of that we aren't aware of. Did I even say "the VF-17 can't fly" or "It must be using OT to fly"? With that said, the X-36 does flies unstable (which doesn't mean it can't fly straight and steady; something that could be said of the VF-1 and is probably even a design goal) and features a type of aileron design the VF-1 doesn't have. Do we see the VF-1 do large maneuvers at high speeds without verniers? Supersonic maneuvering using control surfaces doesn't allow for the sort of movements the VF's can make if they were designed for subsonic flight and it's possible that they switch to pure thrust to deal with super high speeds. Note how the YF-19 folds up its wings completely when in high speed configuration.

I don't think you understand. Regardless of media format, there's an ultimate limit on the detail carried in that form of media. A 1080p data stream is limited to 1080 vertical lines for instance. The point here is that the equivalent to lines for 35mm film is extremely high and is far above any digital standard in existence right now. Therefore, sourcing from such a form can yield excellent results for things like bluray (since downscaling is easy). There's no reason they can't go to 40mm film for instance and get even more information but 35mm is already extremely high. Everything is "stuck" at whatever it could hold at the time of recording, but it's just that current digital recording is below that of the old film in terms of information.

Well, even if we finally admit that they wouldn't be able to fly easily with our technology, there's no reason to believe that there wasn't some sort of OT helping the aerodynamics. I've mentioned how the YF-19 was explicitly expressed to have the "new active aerodynamic control system" by Isamu for instance.

Heh, it _was_ supposed to be primarily space based. I suppose since it was inspired by the F-117, we could say that it flew really wobbly in an atmosphere?

The verniers are strong enough to provide hovering capabilities in fact IIRC. But it was already clear that even VF-1 had so much excess thrust that it would fly even if it was a brick. It's just more interesting to figure whether it would fly with our knowledge of flight mechanics (This discussion still seems be focused on whether the VF-1 could be a stable design which ultimately doesn't matter even if it were). It has to be qualified as "with our technology" since there's almost certainly some sort of OT mechanics as well (for instance, in the Macross Plus OVA, Isamu mentions that the YF-19 has the new Active Aerodynamic Control System.